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Author Topic: Angel Oath for unpowered metagame  (Read 4203 times)
Bone
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« on: November 23, 2009, 02:06:50 am »

Hello

Have tested this and results are good but I am not very familiar with Oath so I wonder if any of you would give me some feedback. This deck is build for playing in an unpowered metagame (aka Legacy + tutors, sol ring, skullclamp and perhaps another Oath)

Angel Oath

Mana>

7 blue fetches
1 Island
4 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Forbidding Orchard
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal

Combo>

4 Oath of Druids
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
2 Hellkite Overlord

Counter & Discard>

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress

Draw & Tutors>

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Lim-Dul\s Vault
4 Impulse
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Brainstorm

Bounce>

1 Repeal
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away

Other tech>

1 Regrowth
1 Gaea\s Blessing
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ancient Grudge

For sideboard I was thinking something like>

1 Tinker
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Empyrial Archangel
2 Pyroclasm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Trickbind
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod\s Crypt
2 Greater Gargadon

What do you think?

Will most likely face Oath, ANT, Goblins, Painter, Tezzvault, Fish, Affinity and alot of rogue aggrodecks.
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healo
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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2009, 02:57:15 am »

Looks very similar to my list, I can give you several tips that might improve your results.

4 of your fetches should be Misty Rainforest. Now that you have access to green, you should add single basic forest to make your manabase bulletproof. You play 9 black spells if I count correctly, so you definately want to play less Tropical Islands and more Underground Seas, I would switch the numbers in your list. You really dont need that many green sources, as it comes from Orchard most of the time anyways. Since you dont have moxen, you really need to act somehow in your first turn and its really important to have that black source for Thoughtseize/Duress or Spell Pierce. Also, Thirst for Knowledge is rather useless, what artifact are you going to discard ? I really miss Sensei's Diving Top in you deck, having fact you shuffle a lot. If you play 3 creatures of this choice (which I find correct), you dont need Gaea's Blessing at all, as its one more card you dont want to draw. It has also negative synergy with Regrowth and Ancient Grudge, which is just awesome in this deck. Repeal is not a bad choice, but both Wipe Away and Echoing Truth should be enough, but this depends on your meta. But overall your deck looks good to me, just playtest in your metagame and make several changes and you should be fine.
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RecklessEmbermage
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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2009, 03:33:00 pm »

Hm. You aren't by any chance preparing for Hulen Open, are you?

Regardless if this is meant for Stavanger or Hulen or any other reasonably unpowered meta, I'd advice you to include tinker in the main. Tinker into sphinx rapes aggro and plays around meddling mage, true believer, chalice at two and other hate you're likely to face.

How about 2 creatures: Sphinx plus Progenitus?

It's two turns slower than two consecutive dragons, but you'll get the time against pretty much any deck in your meta. The creatures are hard to get rid of. Even consecutive edicts will give you progenitus back on your next activation.

Regrowth and blessing look like your weakest cards. I'd cut them and two shuffling effects (probably vault. It's good, but hard on your mana) to find room for some artifacts: 2 tops and 2 pithing needles or something like that. Or time vault if you can get your hands on it.

EDIT: If you can cram wastelands #2-4 into the list, it would help considerably in the mirror. Cutting 2 tropical island seems reasonable, as you'd still have 13 solid green sources and plenty of blue.

Commenting on basic forest, like Healo suggests: I think one basic island looks quite reasonable, atleast with your selection of fetches. This way, you can almost always choose to play a basic turn one, let it be relevant and play a nonbasic green land whenever you have found oath. It really shouldn't matter much if you get lands #2 and 3 wasted. At that point, your opponent has slowed down enough that you most likely have inevitability.

Playing a basic swamp instead or in addition to the island has more merit, since it pays for duress/seize and vampiric. That would require a rework of your manabase though.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 04:30:37 pm by RecklessEmbermage » Logged
Scyther
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« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2009, 05:18:37 pm »

well, i dont see any good point playing that random forest. most of the time green mana comes from orchards, or if u need it u fetch for tropical.
i always loved to play 4 polluted deltas. your opps never know what u play if u lay one of them 1st turn.. ^^ plus with 5 duress effects u really want one of them 1st turn from time to time (get swamp). and to be honest, i dont know whats wrong with all these full powered oath dudes... who play NO basic island at all.. i dont get it.

and tinker - yeah good idea, but what 5-6 artifacts do u want to play to suport it?

repeal is pretty nice i have to admit. echoing truth is a no-go in oath. u only want bouce that also bounces a chalic@2.

and the most important thing: if u can afford a mox sapphire - def trade it for a anc!!!! its soooo much more important!

for reference: my recent oath Build:


4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Mana Leak
1 Wipe Away
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Impulse
1 Lim Duls Vault
R Ancestral Recall
R Brainstorm
R Ponder
R Merchant Scroll
R Demonic Tutor
R Vampiric Tutor
R Mystical Tutor
R Regrowth
R Yagmoths Will
R Time Walk


4 Oath of Druids
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Hellkite Overlord


R Mana Crypt
R Sol Ring
R Lotus Petal
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
R Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
« Last Edit: November 24, 2009, 06:07:40 am by Scyther » Logged

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Bone
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« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2009, 02:22:38 pm »

Thanks for helping Smile

Current changes:
-1 Tropical Island
+1 Underground Sea (have 3 so that seems nice)
-1 Gaea's Blessing
+1 Spell Pierce
-1 Repeal
+1 Sensei's Divining Top

I don't prepare for Hulen, it's such a cool awesome tournament with great location and great people. I will play a fun deck like I did last year. (homebrew necro painter). But if there will be a Mox/Drain/Duals tournament in Stavanger I will most likely play this deck there. Or painter. Or VaultKey, Smile

Sphinx + Progenitus seems very solid but I prefer the speed the angel/dragon gives me. Perhaps I can add Time Vault + Voltaic Key + Yawgmoth's Will in the side? Or maybe it takes too much space and are dead cards, I don't know. But yeah, if I am going to run Tinker in the side I need more artifacts...

I had 2 Wasteland in the side before but I cut them for Greater Gargadon, it's awesome.

I think the main problem right now is the Tinker problem. I need to add 3-4 at least more artifacts in the deck for it to work. Or else I can cut it for other cards. Maybe Eternal Witness, Trinket Mage, Grindstone, Painter transformational build...
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healo
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« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2009, 04:58:11 am »

Definitely forget about tinker without all the moxes and stuff.. Its far better to concentrate on your game plan A, than having a backup that requires 4-5 artifacts only to be vaible.. If you really want a solid game plan B - go for Vault/Key. Well, for similar reason as for Tinker, Yawg. Will is horrible in unpowered deck like this. Its just too mana intensive without all the moxes, black, etc. in yard..
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« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2009, 06:13:21 am »

I have to disagree her.
Will is awesome as it is. Even if u can just Duress and Anc again, its an enormous Boost ind card qualitity and quantity. Same for just Brainstorm + Duress etc.

Tinker IS playable without Moxen:

he already has the sapphire. so:

Sapphire
Petal
Sol Ring
Mana Crypt
Senseiy Top
EE

are all cards that fit into his list and may allow tinker.. And personally I really reccoment playing the lonely E!!! It could(!) solve so many Problems. AND it has synergys with spell pierce, by cuting your opp off Jewelery..
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« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2009, 07:10:32 am »

I have to disagree her.
Will is awesome as it is. Even if u can just Duress and Anc again, its an enormous Boost ind card qualitity and quantity. Same for just Brainstorm + Duress etc.

Tinker IS playable without Moxen:

he already has the sapphire. so:

Sapphire
Petal
Sol Ring
Mana Crypt
Senseiy Top
EE

are all cards that fit into his list and may allow tinker.. And personally I really reccoment playing the lonely E!!! It could(!) solve so many Problems. AND it has synergys with spell pierce, by cuting your opp off Jewelery..


I understeand your point of view, but according to my experience - resolving Yawg. Will should end the game right there. Going for duress and brainstorm is nice of course, but I just dont find this to be enough. And it still requires 5 mana.

The problem with Will is that in unpowered versions of Oath, its a death card first 3-4 turns. At this time you might need something other to survive. You may have different experience, which is completly ok.

I was tweaking my unpowered Oath for 3-4 months and I basicly cut all cards that are 3-4CC. Yawg. Will, Fact or Fiction, Thirs for Knowledge, etc.. And also Tinker. I just cant stress enough, how important it is for Oath to have answers for dangerous threats early in the game and than resolve single 1G enchantment that wins you the game..

This is accomplished with combination of Duress/Thoughtseize effects, Spell Pierces, FoWs, Misdirection, etc.. You really need to have quality cards, instead of quantity. Its better to resolve single quality card, than replaying cards again and again from yard via Will, Regrowth, etc..

Note here, that Im talking about unpowered Oath. Once you start adding things like Moxes (Sapphire), Ancestrals, etc., it might have sense to run Will.

About the tinker thing, well.. I believe its more an utility than a need. If Im playing correctly, I end up Oathing and killing my opponent in two turns. If Im not, Tinker wouldt save me. Also, sacrificing Petal, EE, Top to Tinker seems a bit strange. Of course, if you can do it turn 1-2, ok - but this is not this case.

Im very open to critics and futher disscusion as Im definitaly not the best player around here.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 07:14:01 am by healo » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2009, 12:52:05 pm »

I see what u mean. And of course in a "fully unpowered" oath, I wouldnt even play Regrowth. But with Anc in deck these cards (will, regrowth) are really really good in my experience. thats why i reccomendet trading the sapphire into anc. =) IMO its the best card ever printed and especially in oath that doesnt have a draw engine, its a must IMO.
and overall will is just a very good lategame card. if i wouldnt play will i would play the blessing.. and thats really.. meh.. ^^

and of course it isnt the best way playing tinker with the named artifacts, just wanted to show that it is at least possible to play tinker maybe as a SB PLan-B option or anything. i dont like it either tbh.

hm, maybe I#m adding the 5th duress effect to my build?


« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 06:03:11 pm by Scyther » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2009, 03:23:24 am »

You are right about Ancestral, it makes sense replaying Recall via Will.. On the other hand, these days I would for Orchard - Mox - Oath as possible, cos speed is what matters most I would say. Theres nothing worse than loosing to Tezzeret having 4-5 cards in hand.

Here is my list for example, I have some good results with it - even playing in a full powered meta.

creature [3]
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
2 Hellkite Overlord
instant [22]
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Impulse
1 Lat-Nam’s Legacy
2 Lim-Dul’s Vault
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Spell Pierce
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
sorcery [7]
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Duress
1 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
Enchantment [4]
4 Oath of Druids
Artifact [2]
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sensei’s Diving Top
Land [22]
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Forest
3 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Strip Mine
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland

Though Lat-Nam's Legacy could be and basicly is sided out like 80% times - I can imagine other card here. However, it kind of makes up for card disadvantage you have from casting LDV, Impulse, Vampiric, Mystical, etc.. Mystical was Merchant for some time, but man 1st turn mystical into side card, or smtn like duress is always so strong. And since theres no Recall, I dont see any reason to run it over Mystical, which finds everything. Side is basicly something like Iona, Emyripal, Oxidize, Null Rod, Grip, Hurkyl's, Deed, etc.. It varies a lot.
This list is so consistent, you mull less than usual I would say. This deck gives you best way to survive first 2-3 turns Ive played so far. And that is all you need. Ancient Grudge won me 4/10 games yeasterday I played against Tezz and Stax. I discovered that speed, fast protection, easily casted spells, quality spells and lots of disruption are factors that matters in oath builds. Its all about you having 1G win con, and all should be composed around this.. It wors just perfectly.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 03:34:58 am by healo » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2009, 07:49:40 am »

the list looks solid IMO.

what i question is the forest that definetely should be a swamp with 5 duress effects that u often want to cast 1st turn.. Wink
4 u-seas seems a bit overkill, but well it doesnt hurt either i guess..

lat nam and senseis top are cards that often go in and out of my deck either..

one big question: why akroma?
the dragons do the job much better cause even only one dragon can make the game in 2 turns often: 9+9 =18 dmg.
plus she doesnt have really protection from anything relevant. pro:red/ black is pretty useless tbh.. ^^

i really love iona here. (shes a angel too.. ^^)
she is often game if hits table with 1st oath activation, and seals the deal with second activation. plus u can lim dul or vamp for the second dragon if u need it more than iona..

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« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2009, 09:55:34 am »

Ok, I will go through it.

Forest is there mainly because it can be fetched with Misty Rainforest. Since Rainforest is U/G fetch, it makes no sense to me running singleton swamp.

The probability of drawing single swamp when you need it = in your opening 7, is pretty low. Also, I play 7 blue cards with CC U and 6 black cards with CC B. Because of this, beginning with swamp shuts down 1st turn Spell Pierce, which is something Im not willing to happen.

Next fact is, that in certain situations, forest makes it nearly impossible for your opponent to get rid of your green source. Of course, mostly you just go for Tropical, but there are cases, that you will find this forest super safe, just try it out. (for example vs Stax)

With 4 Orchard, 4 Rainforest, 4 Seas - I cant imagine me not having 1st turn Duress/Thoughtseize, or Spell Pierce.. Or say, Mystical, Vampirict, etc.. And this really rock!!! That is all you need - have something to say the very first turn. Its followed mostly by 2nd turn Oath, which either gets rid of opponents resources, or ends the game quickly.

That is the way, how I play Oath. And that is the way, how this list is about.

Playing 2 Dragons + Akroma gives you this - no matter what, you win after 2nd activation of Oath. Even if one creature is in your hand, which pretty much happens as we all know. Add to it fact you have very dangerous 1st turn and you have a good starting point. It makes your opponent to quickly find answer other than concentrate on his own game - good.

Iona gives you some more control, but gives your opponent turn. I also think, that the creature choice in Oath is less relevant, because when you activate Oath, you are already winning, because good opponent will always focus on your Oath, not the creatures. That being said, I find creature choice very meta - dependant.

And since in my location there are lots of noble fish, etc., - Akroma si strictly better than Iona. I play Iona in side of course, because its killer against mono, or smtn like Tezz, etc..

I more use my LDV to tutor for Oath, Orchard, or Duress/Thoughtseize than as an utility to fix what creature appears 1st, 2nd..

Oath is deck, that you have room for a lot of cards, utilities, etc.. But if you concentrate on fact, that you need 1G enchantment on table and build the deck around it, you will find it winning more often, than through utility cards, draw engine, super cool new tweaks, etc.. This is how I play it. 1st goal - not lose the game in the very first turns. 2nd goal - get Oath on table, everything else is less important. Because this is, what you really need to win the game.

All those things Ive written above are small goals that lead to those 2 big ones.. And it works.

Next thing is, that from player to player, its different play style, different meta, different way of playing magic at all. You have to look on Oath as a combo deck more than a control deck. All those counterspells, tops, tutors, etc.. All of those are there not to control the game, but to give you Oath on table and win the game. Oath is probably mix of combo and aggro. It wins in 2 turns after resolving its win con. This is way faster, than any aggro - in a way. and its say turn slower, than combo.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 10:01:34 am by healo » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2009, 10:12:59 am »

of course u are not suppoosed to play 1 swamp and 4 rainforst.. LOL. omg ^^

what i obviously (!) meant was playing 4 deltas plus swamp. so u have the possibility to fetch for a swamp and go with duress 1st turn. of course if u wanna safe mana for pierce go for island/ sea.. this should be a no brainer..

but the swamp offers so much more than the forest with this. of course in the end u wana play the oath and need G - but theres absolutely no problem using orchard/ tropical. in my experience the forest is sooo much less relevant than a techy swamp.
i know rainforst is shiny and new and it seem to fit better, but in the end G is only a splash color in this deck to be able to pay for your wincondition. and this green mana u need only one time!! like against stax - u only need the green source the vey last moment, when u cast oath...
(ecept using ancient grudge etc..)
being able to thoughtseize/ vamp consistently even against wasteland decks is really esential. and u confirm with me if i see it correctly, we play oath pretty much the same way. (as u can see our lists are pretty identical)

and ur right with akroma. its meta dependant. and if u get oath online ur near the finish line anyway.. just wanna show an alternative.. =)
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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2009, 12:41:28 pm »

Not gonna comment on the basic forest vs swamp. Scyther makes it clear as day.

When it comes to akroma paired with dragons or just 2-3 dragons in aggro oath, that's all metagame. If people play dragon oath, add a karrthus to the mix, if people play karakas, avoid akroma, if people play targeted black creature-kill, like vindicate or terminate (I seriously can't come up with a better example for this one), play an akroma...

The interesting question to ask is IMO: What reasons does your metagame give you for playing hasty beaters rather than hard-to-remove beaters? Or lifelinkers? Or Iona?
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2009, 01:15:23 pm »

cause u wanna win ASAP!!

playing shrouded dudes giveyour oppenent too many turns to race you with his own goyfs or whatever or find key/ vault. or lock u down via workshop-outlets..

thats why we stil play hasty dudes.

what i was thinking about, but havent tetsed yet:

Iona + Empirial archangel.

hitting iona first gives a good shot against combo/ tezz/ UB-stuffdecks. and the archangel gives u a good shot at fish and spot removal.
but its soooo bad against stax.. oO
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2009, 01:19:45 pm »

Haha, I seriously didnt catch on those Deltas - sorry for that Scyther.. Smile

Your points make sense to me.

But, I forgot probably to mention one main thing that forest brings to you and that is of course sideboard in which I find Oxidize, Ancient Grudge (1 in main), Firespout, Krosan Grip, etc.. All very relevant cards, strictly better than sideboard based on blue/black. Also, I have never had a problem with black source in this deck.

As for my preference of hasty beaters over hard-to-remove beaters only thing I can say is, that I just experienced more success with Akroma + Dragons than with say Iona, Progenitus, Sphinx, etc.. I think that the less turns you give your opponent, the better. Some match-ups are fairly hard if you dont have hasty 2-turn clock guys, like Stax..

Here is list that finished 3rd in N.Y.S.E. III, only loosing to mirror in semis..

3rd – Scott Conway
Dragon Oath

4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Oath of Druids
2 Hellkite Overlord
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
4 Force of Will
2 Lim Dul’s Vault
4 Impulse
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Spell Pierce
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Gaea’s Blessing
2 Duress
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth

I basicly took this deck as my starting point and evolved my unpowered version around it and it works perfectly. And you still see here Forest + Rainforests, Akroma + 2 Dragons.. I have to admit though that Matt won this tournament with similar deck without Forests, even with AG main, which I find strange and he also added some Misty Rainforests later in Starcitygames.com article I think. So what do you think about this ?

edit: I just noticed that you dont even see Yawg. Will.. Its so easy and fresh build - I just cant get enough of if.. Smile
« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 01:26:05 pm by healo » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2009, 01:30:49 pm »

well it looks solid for a powered version.

WHAT I find extremely strange is that u have NO card at all main against Chalice@2.

Echoing Truth is a no go in oath IMO, as mentioned earlier.But well.

If u play many green spells Sb, Forest could(!) make sense, otherwise...
I do play 2 Oxidize and 2 Energy Flux against Staxx, plus maybe Needle, Crypt ect.. so no need for a forest, that is mainly a colorless land most of the time, if u topdeck it.
and firesprout.. well, i rather play 2 Smother here! =)


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« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2009, 01:46:22 pm »

I asked same question to me when I was constructing my unpowered version and as a result I play 1 Wipe Away instead of Hurkyl's Recall and Ancient Grudge instead of Gaea's Blessing in a way..

What I like about ET is, that its so universal card - It wins you Orchard wars in Mirror, it bounces Meddling Mage, it kills spirits from Orchard if you happen to screw your manabase somehow. Its just all around great card that can give you a key turn and also pitches to Force/Misd..

Next thing is, that since I dont run Blessing (which I find correct as my goal is to minimalize cards I dont want to draw because Oath has basicly no draw engine) I might end up Oathing my only bounce to Yard with no way to bring it back. Theres no problem with Chalice at 2 as its pretty much solved with AG, you can even resolve it, let it die and than flashback it, thats clear..

As I said, its all affected by meta - so my creature packed metagame is pretty much all fish, goyfs, etc, etc.. Firespout is godlike here. Smother definitely playable, I flirted with Massacre - also with good results.

But if I was to add power to this deck, ET would probably go as well as Lat-Nam's Legacy.. Yawg. Will in..
« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 01:56:30 pm by healo » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2009, 02:06:13 pm »

just to make it clear: Ancient Grudge does NOT hit a Chalice@2. Wether hardcast (obvious) nor via Flashback (casting cost is still 2!!). (If I'm not totally mistaken!!)
So basically a chalice early will let you scoop painfully...

That why i play wipe Away and EE.

And EE fullfills most of the things u mentioned about ET.. Just think about it.. Wink AND it makes your Spell Pierces better.

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« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2009, 02:17:45 pm »

Ahh, my bad - I might reconcider this. Still there is Wipe Away.

I was thinking about EE for a while - is it doing really well ? In any case, Pernicious Deed is also possibility..
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« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2009, 02:38:26 pm »

well i dont wanna tell u what to play or not. oath has many viable choices, but no combination will be perfect for every situation. just wanna point out certain scenarios need to be kept in mind.
personally I'm not even sure about the sol ring and mana crypt.. ^^ they come in handy from time to time, but i guess it wouldnt be worse wthout them..

Deed is tottally fine, would even be better with a hand full of Drains IMO. =)
But I'm in love with the lonely EE. =)

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« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2009, 12:23:26 pm »

How is Sol Ring in this kind of Oath build ? I might try to replace Lat-Nam's Legacy with Sol Ring, what do you think about this ? Mana Crypt is out of range, also I find it not that broken. Im trying to speed this deck up a bit..
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 12:56:18 pm by healo » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2009, 03:12:40 pm »

Sol Ring was alway pretty nice for me. I liket it more back when i played mana leak/ neagte, so u can oath+leak togehter a turn faster than normaly. but now we have spell pierce and more duress effects, so maybe the ring is obsolet. i really liked the crypt for the same reasons, but the life loss is imo to heavy with thougtseize and spirit tokens.
i really wished there would be something like a ESG, without being a creature..

funny that u want to cut the lat nam.. ^^ I squeezed it back in my version lately.

all i now have to complain is, that i really want another hard counter like a single leak or drain.. maybe i find room for it soon.. ^^
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« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2009, 04:11:58 pm »

Well, assumig that I play 3 hasted creatures, so its 2-turn clock even if one of them is in my hand and that Im not playing blessing, theres not much left to shuffle back into my library..

Its very unlikely, that I have 2 creatures in my hand and even then, if the last one is Hellkite, it can be 2-turn clock since I have volcanic + orchards.. Sure, late game Spell Pierce, Land, or whatever, its always nice to get those 2 extra cards, but I think that this is a situation Im trying to avoid - being in a late game.

Im very interested in that single Mana Leak as a hard counter, which I miss from time to time. Sol Ring probably opens some more action I can get out of this deck, but I doubt it will affect the game as much as another counter.

Yes, I hate ESG not being a creature as well, but you know, there you just go for moxes.. Smile

I will probably test Iona in main instead of Akroma to see, how that works. In this case I should probably leave Lat-Nams there..
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 04:14:56 pm by healo » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2009, 03:25:42 pm »

well, tbh i think thats the problem. we dont play blessing so its likely we wil not have access to the lonely BS in midgame, so one more card to shuffle back crap can be really nice. of course its not essebtially though.

and yeah, one dragon alone could be a 2turn-clock thats why i really like iona in an unknown/ very mixed meta as a back up.

I'm really pleased now with my recent list. =)

"Spells" [30]
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Spell Pierce
1 Mana Drain
1 Wipe Away
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Impulse
1 Lat Nams Legacy
1 Sensei Divining Top/LDV
R Ancestral Recall
R Brainstorm
R Ponder
R Merchant Scroll
R Demonic Tutor
R Vampiric Tutor
R Mystical Tutor
R Regrowth
R Yawgmoths Will

Enchantments [4]
4 Oath of Druids

Creatures [3]
2 Hellkite Overlord
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Mana (23)
R Sol Ring
R Lotus Petal
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
R Strip Mine
3 Wasteland


maybe i will get rid of the delta/ swamp thing, but then all i would do is playing 4 different U-Fetches and one more island. I'm really not sure, but it really sucks to thoughtseize a fish 1st turn and then get ur sea wasted.. and so on.. =/ the swamp really comes in handy from time to time.

I cut back to only Anc as my only Power, as I'm not playing thaaat often competetively anymore, and so no need to have a 2500 € deck. so i get rid of all the moxen and the blotus and even time walk, the latter hurts most. =/
if i would be forced to cut the anc too, i would switch anc and scroll for 1-2 nights whisper. =)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 07:14:25 pm by Scyther » Logged

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