Bloodghasted Ichorid Primer- Looking to the future

[Womba]

Right now I am boarding out 9 Dread Return cards (2 Dread Return, 3 Sharuum, 2 Altar, LED, Lotus) + 2x each of (Fatestitcher, Thug, Imp)
I bring in the whole board.

That seems like a lot to be bringing in and it looks like you are on a very low dredger count. I am finding FoW, the bounce, and Ichorids allow the deck flow better and are sufficient ammo for hate. I will not comment any further until I fully explore and test this out some more.

[jester3397]

I'm not familiar with the metagames that you guys have but recently Ichorid has seen a rise on our meta that its been winning consistently. Tez has been a non performer in our meta due to the heavy fish and selkie decks that are designed to beat those decks.

My question is for a meta with around 9-12 ichorids and will most likely face at least 1 in the top8, which version would you guys run? Manaless or Mana Ichorid?

Second will maindeck Leyline help

This is my proposed list so far. It

4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Fatestitcher
2 Golgari Thug
2 Ichorid
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Darkblast
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Serum Powder
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 City of Brass
3 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Dakmor Salvage

Sideboard
4 Force of Will
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Echoing Truth
3 Contagion
1 City of Brass

[FAVO!!!!1]

If it was nothing BUT Ichorid (at least thats what 9 out of 12 decks will dictate to me), I would think about going the same route as you are... It is as everyone has said previously, Leyline is the worst card to play against ourselves. So its easily the best card for that metagame. I would probably try something else in the Chalice spot though, possible Breakthrough to help make the Force plan more consistent.

[Ravager Sam]

For the dredge mirror, it's not about the specific deck, but about the specific list.  For example, with your list, you could agressively mulligan g1 to a t0 bazaar and auto-win.  You could repeat the same thing game 2 and still keep enough of your g1 gameplan in the maindeck to get an early win while you put your opponent at a standstill trying to find an answer.  Overall, it is easier to pull this off with mana-ed ichorid because you don't need bazaar + t0 leyline to win, but you can win with breakthrough/careful study + 1 land + t0 leyline.  However, manaless ichorid will on average have a faster clock and be able to win t2 or t3 if the mana-ed ichorid player doesn't get his leylines, or have a counter for chain of vapor.

[Mantis]

If you play manaless with Leylines and Powders MD you can just mulligan for Leyline, you can almost always win game 1. In any case you don't need Bazaar in your opening hand if you have Leyline as the only thing they can do to beat you is Narcomoeba/Bloodghast beatdown and draw phase dredging probably even beats that.

[jester3397]

Our past 2 tournaments have been at least 40 players with 8 Ichorid in the meta. There were also 16 selkie based decks.
In our year-end tournament we are expecting an attendance of about 60+ with at least 10 Ichorid and possibly 10-15 selkie decks again. Its already a guarantee that 25% of attendees will sport some sort of random aggro deck. The rest rounding up by 2-5 copies of Tez, MUD, NSA, Oath, ANT, Belcher and TPS

I still think that Ichorid is still the best deck to bring to a meta like this. I would have to go with manaless (no spell) version.

Post board I do have a very low blue count. I will probably be siding out the fatestitchers so that makes my blue spell count at 15.

I have to debate if going the force route is the better one for this deck.
This is the other sideboard plan I was thinking of.
4 Contagion
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Emerald Charm
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Ancient Grudge
1 City of Brass

[Adan]

I always find it interesting why you guys are so in love with Mana Ichorids, what advantage does this build has except that it can be disrupted easily?

Even though Thorns and Spheres shouldn't be an issue, this iissue is just shifted because all these fishesque Decks play Daze and Spell Piece and maybe Meddling Mage to prohibit stuff like Study and Breakthrough. Therefore your dependancy on Bazaar is not reduced.

I'd still advocate a Powder Dredge variant. This is just a rough draft of what I'm thinking of:

// Lands
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    4  Undiscovered Paradise
    2  Dakmor Salvage

// Creatures
    3  Golgari Thug
    4  Ichorid
    4  Golgari Grave-Troll
    1  Flame-Kin Zealot
    4  Narcomoeba
    1  Angel of Despair
    4  Stinkweed Imp
    4  Bloodghast
    1  Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
    4  Unmask
    4  Chalice of the Void
    4  Bridge from Below
    4  Cabal Therapy
    3  Dread Return
    1  Darkblast
    4  Serum Powder

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Chain of Vapor
SB: 3  Ancient Grudge
SB: 3  Gemstone Mine
SB: 2  Wispmare
SB: 2  Ingot Chewer
SB: 2  Contagion

I'm still tempted to run 4 Dread Returns and a 2/2 split of Iona and Painter's Servant... But I guess that's just what the kiddy inside me is shouting frequently, it wouldn't make much sense I guess.
But what do you guys think about this build?

[Ravager Sam]

I always find it interesting why you guys are so in love with Mana Ichorids, what advantage does this build has except that it can be disrupted easily?

Even though Thorns and Spheres shouldn't be an issue, this iissue is just shifted because all these fishesque Decks play Daze and Spell Piece and maybe Meddling Mage to prohibit stuff like Study and Breakthrough. Therefore your dependancy on Bazaar is not reduced.

I'd still advocate a Powder Dredge variant. This is just a rough draft of what I'm thinking of:

You do raise good points in favor a manaless ichorid deck.  However, I question some of your specific card choices:

// Lands
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    4  Undiscovered Paradise
    2  Dakmor Salvage

// Creatures
    3  Golgari Thug
    4  Ichorid
    4  Golgari Grave-Troll
    1  Flame-Kin Zealot
    4  Narcomoeba
    1  Angel of Despair
    4  Stinkweed Imp
    4  Bloodghast
    1  Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
    4  Unmask
    4  Chalice of the Void
    4  Bridge from Below
    4  Cabal Therapy
    3  Dread Return
    1  Darkblast
    4  Serum Powder

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Chain of Vapor
SB: 3  Ancient Grudge
SB: 3  Gemstone Mine
SB: 2  Wispmare
SB: 2  Ingot Chewer
SB: 2  Contagion

First, do you find that 10 lands is enough in the main deck to activate bloodghasts pre-board?  Without fatestichers and with 2 dakmor salvage, I suppose you can get away with it.

Second, I feel 4 bloodghast and 4 ichorid is too much in the main deck, especially because ichorid is next to useless g1.

Third, I feel the unmasks should probably be anything else -> lands, leylines, fatestitchers, the sharuum engine, etc.  They really don't seem to be as useful in practice as they do on paper; much of the discussion on unmask was in the other thread.

On another note, how have the chalices worked for you?  I haven't tried them yet, but they seem promising on paper.

[P]

I always find it interesting why you guys are so in love with Mana Ichorids, what advantage does this build has except that it can be disrupted easily?

Even though Thorns and Spheres shouldn't be an issue, this iissue is just shifted because all these fishesque Decks play Daze and Spell Piece and maybe Meddling Mage to prohibit stuff like Study and Breakthrough. Therefore your dependancy on Bazaar is not reduced.

I'd still advocate a Powder Dredge variant. This is just a rough draft of what I'm thinking of:

[...]

I'm still tempted to run 4 Dread Returns and a 2/2 split of Iona and Painter's Servant... But I guess that's just what the kiddy inside me is shouting frequently, it wouldn't make much sense I guess.
But what do you guys think about this build?

I've been running a MD list very similar, but running a full set of Street Wraiths over the Unmasks.

Street Wraith is greatly under appreciated, he helps cut down your Thug numbers since he enables Ichorid, therefore allowing you to up the Dakmor numbers to deal with the low landcount for your Bloodghasts and speeds you up a full turn when draw in the starting hand/extra two. Not to mention that with Ravenous Trap seeing more play than Crypt and Relic combined these days, dredging for two is pretty damn clutch.

Also not a huge fan of Undiscovered Paradise, the Ghast trick is cute, but with a decent amount of Dakmors it shouldn't really be needed. I rather play Waste/Strip package in that slot, free disruption that triggers landfall. You obviously need to adapt the SB for that plan to fit in a set of Rainbow land or whatever, but since our SB plan is usually pretty narrow, it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

I'm currently toying with the idea of adding up Leylines in the maindeck, can't really figure out what to toss out just yet or if it's even worth it.

[Dark4Ever]

What are people's thoughts about using Dryad Arbor as a Dread Return target using Bloodghast?
In terms of generating zombie tokens you get some when you sack the Bloodghasts to return the Dryad Arbor and then since it is a land you return the Bloodghats and can Dread Return sac them to get more zombies and return Zealot.
I realise it produces green mana but I see as an alternative way to get a land in play to return the Blloodghasts.

[sorcutt]

^ It's an idea but is it really better than any of the alternatives that return Bloodghast? 

Undiscovered Valley= ghast every turn + multicolored sideboard options + taps for fatestitcher
City of Brass= multicolored sideboard options + taps for fatestitcher
Seat of the Synod= returnable with Sharuum + taps for fatestitcher
Oboro, place in the sky= taps for fatestitcher+ possible returns ghast every turn
Strip/Waste= distruption
Cephalid Coliseum= taps for fatestitcher + alternative/compliment to Bazaar
Dakmor Salvage= potential ghast return when in the yard + crappy dredger
Petrified Field= gets a land back but doesn't produce colored mana

What does arbor do?  It sits there and doesn't generate any practical mana and chumps for a zombie token when needed. It can be useful but there are better alternatives out there.  Having blue mana available is awesome in combination with Fatestitcher.  HE... WINS... GAMES. Nuff said.

[tef45]

Hy, For me, I test a version with river kelpie and Fkz, I don't like Sharuum engine, and this is my list, and I 'm french so sorry for my bad english ^^ :


4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 City Of Brass
1 Darkmor Salvage
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
4 Bloodghast
3 Fatesticher
2 River Kelpie
1 FKZ
4 Narcomaebe
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
4 Bridge From Below
3 Dread Return
4 Serum Powder
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Leyline Of the Void

As you can see, i don't play ichorid and it's not a problem, I win G1 on turn 2 regularly and most regularly than I play with ichorid.
River kelpie is great because it help to dredge if you don't have Fatesticher.
The real discuss for me is about Leyline of the void, i really hesitate, but i think it's a great response MD to other graveyard deck, but maybe if i think my meta don't have a lot of graveyard deck, i think i change for 1 Fatesticher, 2 ichorid and 1 Darkmor Salvage, or 3 ichorid and 1 fatesticher.
So if you have any advice, i take this
Thx  a lot

[Dark4Ever]

^ It's an idea but is it really better than any of the alternatives that return Bloodghast? 

Undiscovered Valley= ghast every turn + multicolored sideboard options + taps for fatestitcher
City of Brass= multicolored sideboard options + taps for fatestitcher
Seat of the Synod= returnable with Sharuum + taps for fatestitcher
Oboro, place in the sky= taps for fatestitcher+ possible returns ghast every turn
Strip/Waste= distruption
Cephalid Coliseum= taps for fatestitcher + alternative/compliment to Bazaar
Dakmor Salvage= potential ghast return when in the yard + crappy dredger
Petrified Field= gets a land back but doesn't produce colored mana

What does arbor do?  It sits there and doesn't generate any practical mana and chumps for a zombie token when needed. It can be useful but there are better alternatives out there.  Having blue mana available is awesome in combination with Fatestitcher.  HE... WINS... GAMES. Nuff said.

Very good points. I think I see the light now.
Thanks

[Adan]

You do raise good points in favor a manaless ichorid deck.  However, I question some of your specific card choices:

[...]

First, do you find that 10 lands is enough in the main deck to activate bloodghasts pre-board?  Without fatestichers and with 2 dakmor salvage, I suppose you can get away with it.

Second, I feel 4 bloodghast and 4 ichorid is too much in the main deck, especially because ichorid is next to useless g1.

Third, I feel the unmasks should probably be anything else -> lands, leylines, fatestitchers, the sharuum engine, etc.  They really don't seem to be as useful in practice as they do on paper; much of the discussion on unmask was in the other thread.

On another note, how have the chalices worked for you?  I haven't tried them yet, but they seem promising on paper.

Unmasks are great, really, they are, without them TPS and Long will just run you over. Same is true for Chalice, it really slows the opponent down like hell if you open with it on the play. And they look incredibly sexy in foil.

But I can't see why I should add the Sharuum engine or the likes because they are just "cute" imho, I think a single Iona can already shut down a fuckload of resources by her own (a clock is provided by the mass of tokens which will be generated when playing DR).

I just don't really like Fatestitchers as I'm playing the more straight-foward Powder Dredge, which means that it's not guaranteed that I have the lands to support the Stitchers. The same MAY be true for Bloodghasts, but Dakmor Salvage fixes that problem.

However, I will try to restructure it a bit, running 4 Ichorids doesn't look necessary after the inclusion of BG. But Unmasks are insane. And Chalice are even more insane. And Chalice AND Unmask in you opener altogether with Bazaar... I promise you, you will jizz into your pants. This is just the best way to ensure that the opponent doesn't topdeck within 2 turns and combo off. With Unmask and Chalice, you will either take his bombs to make his hand very bad or you take important resources to render a variety of topdecks useless.

For the guy who planned to put Leylines into the maindeck, i have a list here (this is also for my meta where MUD is an issue and the other Dredgers have dropped Leylines for Bloodghasts, this gives me the opportunity to steal g1 with mulling to Leyline ;-D ):

// Lands
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    2  Dakmor Salvage
    4  Undiscovered Paradise

// Creatures
    4  Bloodghast
    2  Golgari Thug
    3  Ichorid
    4  Stinkweed Imp
    4  Narcomoeba
    1  Flame-Kin Zealot
    4  Golgari Grave-Troll
    1  Angel of Despair

// Spells
    4  Bridge from Below
    4  Cabal Therapy
    1  Darkblast
    2  Dread Return
    4  Leyline of the Void
    4  Unmask
    4  Serum Powder
    4  Chalice of the Void

It's still a raw version and I'm not sure whether it works out well. I have been playing with Petrified Fields and a Strip Mine before that, but now I'm not sure whether this manabase just made the Noble Fish matchup worse, but fortunately Unmasks help here, too (nothing is more annoying than getting your Bazaar stifle-wasted!).
I have goldfished it a few times and it's very straight foward, but I'm not happy with the number of Dread Returns and Flame Kins, the DR-package should look like:

3 DR
2 FKZ
1 Angel of Despair

to speed things up,I usually find myself going nuts and blowing everything out, but then my euphoria gets dampened by the fact that I have not dredged my FKZ and/or a Dread Return. That's frustrating sometimes as I actually never want to give my opponent another turn.

Angel of Despair will stay in the MD. When we went to Dillingen some months ago, I discussed whether I should cut him or now because there was never a need for him actually (except maybe time-walking by eating the opponent's land with Chalice 0 out). I did not cut him and guess what I played against just 2 rounds after that? Oath with maindeck Platinum Angel. It may be Murphy's Law, but I won that thanks to Angel and that's why I'm not cutting him. You can side him out anyway because then you will have the actual answers for stuff like Platz.

edit: I have just discovered that my list is nothing new, a guy named Marco Deligos and apparently a friend of him piloted that build into Top4 twice in Manila:

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1174

[MoonDark]

Guys I have been trying to get the ways this deck wins with Shaarum + Altar/Portal

From what I understand, 2x Shaarum + Altar == you deck your oponnent ?  Is that how you are playing it ?

I would love to hear more details about why Possessed portal and altar ( I have read all the thread + the older Dredge thread) etc... but it's still not clear to me. Sorry for the silly question.

Thanks

[Lemnear]

Guys I have been trying to get the ways this deck wins with Shaarum + Altar/Portal

From what I understand, 2x Shaarum + Altar == you deck your oponnent ?  Is that how you are playing it ?

I would love to hear more details about why Possessed portal and altar ( I have read all the thread + the older Dredge thread) etc... but it's still not clear to me. Sorry for the silly question.

Thanks

you use altar to mill your own deck into the grave (sac Shaarum and other buddies like milled narcomoebas, recuring Bloodghasts or animated Fatestitcher while creating Zomies via Bridges you sac too) so you have access to all Therapies/Dread Return/2nd Shaarum/Bridges. At this point you can deck the opponent (you get the point already) or kill him however you like (Bloodghast aggro). Portal is kind of a lock-out for your opponent similar to Iona, therefore you don't even have to run FKZ.  I would sugest a list like that:

"TRS Bloodstitcher"

// Lands
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    3  Oboro, Palace in the clouds
    4  Undiscovered Paradise
    4  Cephalid Coliseum

// Creatures
    4  Bloodghast
    4  Golgari Thug
    4  Fatestitcher
    4  Stinkweed Imp
    4  Narcomoeba
    3  Shaarum
    4  Golgari Grave-Troll

// Spells
    4  Bridge from Below
    4  Cabal Therapy
    4  Dread Return
    4  Serum Powder
    2  Altar

Disrution like chalice is useless since decks like TPS rarely kill on turn one. This build is very consistent and kills on turn 2 most of the time, since I play enough lands to ensure turn 2 landfall and/or turn 2 fatestitcher, 'cause you'll be able to find a land at least during the first bazaar activation. WE overworked the list today for better results in testingg, replacing slavage for oboro for  an easier access to fatestitcher

[Ravager Sam]

Lemnear, how has the Sharrum engine been working for you without another artifact to return with Sharuum (Lotus, LED, Seat of the Synod, or even Possessed Portal - I realize you have 2 Altars)?  Considering that you have more lands than my list in the OP, I feel you could afford to have a Seat of the Synod to bring back for that extra reach with fatestitcher or bloodghast rezzing.  I agree with your addition of the 3rd Sharuum because the deck is definitely more consistent that way for many reasons from Serum Powder to having bad luck.

[marcb]

What do people consider when trying to decide between playing a manaless version of dredge like the one posted above by lemnear as opposed to a mana'd version that contains breakthrough and careful study. I ask because there used to be a time when the manaless version (i.e. powder dredge) had much less mana so it could run cards like leyline and chalice for added disruption, but now these cards are less useful, and bloodghast has made it so that dredge decks running serum powder play as much land as the old mana'd dredge decks did. Are the manaless decks faster on account of fatestitcher and the ability to mul into bazaar, or do people play this version because bazaar is harder to disrupt compared to say countering their first turn breakthrough? I guess what I'm really asking is when choosing between these 2 builds do people consider the deciding factor to be the speed (i.e. fundamental turn) of the two decks or the fear of counterspelling your initial discard outlet?

[meadbert]

Serum Powder is better against Duress, Thoughtseize, Spell Pierce, Force of Will, Daze, Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst, Chalice of the Void@1, Trinisphere and Mana Drain.
Breakthrough is better against Strip Mine, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter and Pithing Needle.

[TheBrassMan]

In my (possibly limited) experience with the deck, Serum Powder has just been too powerful - and mulligans from lists without it have been too poor - to warrant running a list without it, even if you're running some number of draw spells in addition.  As Mantis said, Serum Powder gives you that huge edge game one, which is critical to Dredge.  Further, Bazaar (though not always) is usually better against must-answers like Leyline and Jailor than Study (because of it's reuseability), and Breakthrough (because you dont have to trash/expose to hate the rest of your important game two hand to get an answer... and also reuseability).

[Soon-Man]

has there been any thought about Dryad Arbor as a dread return target that can trigger Bloodghast?

[Leftconsin]

has there been any thought about Dryad Arbor as a dread return target that can trigger Bloodghast?

Yes.

^ It's an idea but is it really better than any of the alternatives that return Bloodghast? 

Undiscovered Valley= ghast every turn + multicolored sideboard options + taps for fatestitcher
City of Brass= multicolored sideboard options + taps for fatestitcher
Seat of the Synod= returnable with Sharuum + taps for fatestitcher
Oboro, place in the sky= taps for fatestitcher+ possible returns ghast every turn
Strip/Waste= distruption
Cephalid Coliseum= taps for fatestitcher + alternative/compliment to Bazaar
Dakmor Salvage= potential ghast return when in the yard + crappy dredger
Petrified Field= gets a land back but doesn't produce colored mana

What does arbor do?  It sits there and doesn't generate any practical mana and chumps for a zombie token when needed. It can be useful but there are better alternatives out there.  Having blue mana available is awesome in combination with Fatestitcher.  HE... WINS... GAMES. Nuff said.

Dryad Arbor does not do enough compared to the other lands we have available.

[Adan]

Serum Powder is better against Duress, Thoughtseize, Spell Pierce, Force of Will, Daze, Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst, Chalice of the Void@1, Trinisphere and Mana Drain.

i.e. the whole format.

Breakthrough is better against Strip Mine, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter and Pithing Needle.

Wasteland + Strip -> Stax and Noble Fish which also run...

Spell Pierce, Force of Will, Daze, Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst, Chalice of the Void@1, Trinisphere

!!!

The Mana Dredge builds suck. Period.

I have tested a list similar to this list on place 6 and I somehow fell like ALMOST everything I said in my post before lost it's value:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1181

You don't need Chalice anymore. Fatestitcher and Bloodghast accelerate the deck by 1 whole turn, which means you have a pretty consistent Turn2 goldfish.
It only plays 6-7 Dread Return slots (I'd say 6 because I would not play the Angel anymore) which allows it to pack more disruption (Unmasks. They are still great!).

The only thing I'm concerned about that list is that it might be a bit more vulnerable to Spheres because you definitely need DR to win because you don't have recurring Ichorids (I think you will be able to pay for the Spheres most of the time because you run many lands), but I'd still run a few Ichorids, also to be a bit more resilient against Xtirpate.

[Ravager Sam]

The only thing I'm concerned about that list is that it might be a bit more vulnerable to Spheres.../quote]

But is that really relevant?  Game 1, when you actually have your dread return package, the worst possible thing they can do is drop a trinisphere on the play, and it's not like that wrecks you like t0 leyline G1 because it merely slows you down by a couple turns.  If all they drop is a sphere by t2, the game clock should only be slowed by one turn, at most.

[Womba]

What do people consider when trying to decide between playing a manaless version of dredge like the one posted above by lemnear as opposed to a mana'd version that contains breakthrough and careful study. I ask because there used to be a time when the manaless version (i.e. powder dredge) had much less mana so it could run cards like leyline and chalice for added disruption, but now these cards are less useful, and bloodghast has made it so that dredge decks running serum powder play as much land as the old mana'd dredge decks did. Are the manaless decks faster on account of fatestitcher and the ability to mul into bazaar, or do people play this version because bazaar is harder to disrupt compared to say countering their first turn breakthrough? I guess what I'm really asking is when choosing between these 2 builds do people consider the deciding factor to be the speed (i.e. fundamental turn) of the two decks or the fear of counterspelling your initial discard outlet?

For me I look at it like this....Its all about games two and three. With a powder version you have to hope your opponent does not draw hate against you. What I mean by that is since Bazaar is your only drawling (unless u mull to anti hate for some reason) it puts you at card disadvantage with the draw 2 discard 3 while playing through the hate. Where as in a mana version of the deck Careful Study, Breakthrough (with the 2-3 mana on it), and Coliseum to a lesser extent depending the hate card can dig for you while minimizing and controlling your card disadvantage.  Also turn one needle, strip, wasteland combined with hate cards sets you back way farther than a countered Careful Study or Breakthrough against hate cards and most of the time the only card you need to worry about is FoW since they USUALLY will be siding out their counters and discard spells. I admit that Powder is better verse spheres, however, vs shop decks even when they get a sphere vs a mana dredge deck usually do not have the pressure to make it game breaking. Also comparing the decks in games two and three the mana version allows FoW more fodder than the Powder version. While I don't have a breakdown on its relevancy between each version, your obviously going to have more blue cards with the mana version.

The Mana Dredge builds suck. Period.

Why? Statements like this without reason appear to be stupid to me nor do they help the community understand your point.

Serum Powder is better against Duress, Thoughtseize, Spell Pierce, Force of Will, Daze, Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst, Chalice of the Void@1, Trinisphere and Mana Drain.
Breakthrough is better against Strip Mine, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter and Pithing Needle.

What about the actually hate cards though? The relevant ones they bring in after they side out half of those cards you just named........

Further, Bazaar (though not always) is usually better against must-answers like Leyline and Jailor than Study (because of it's reuseability), and Breakthrough (because you dont have to trash/expose to hate the rest of your important game two hand to get an answer... and also reuseability).

Bazaar is WAY better verse both of those cards against a Jailer. Looking at the most devastating card, Leyline, Study is clearly a small favorite because you don't expose your hand as much as you do with a bazaar. You say reuseability but your not activating bazaar every turn to find the answer because you won't have a hand after two activations, which means pretty much that it is used as often as a study would be, about once every 2-3 turns depending your card size. where as if you run both, careful study and bazaar you can dig a little more deeper.



It appears people forget the mana version of the deck does indeed run bazaars as well......

[Lemnear]

Lemnear, how has the Sharrum engine been working for you without another artifact to return with Sharuum (Lotus, LED, Seat of the Synod, or even Possessed Portal - I realize you have 2 Altars)?  Considering that you have more lands than my list in the OP, I feel you could afford to have a Seat of the Synod to bring back for that extra reach with fatestitcher or bloodghast rezzing.  I agree with your addition of the 3rd Sharuum because the deck is definitely more consistent that way for many reasons from Serum Powder to having bad luck.

As other users realized too there is no need for chalice if you goldfish turn 2 ... if you think a step further you see that if you goldfish turn 2 the 3 shaarum an the 2 altar are much better than the portal could be. You could play seat instead of the oboro's, i considered stronger than seat against wastelands, so you can therapy and return/attack with ghast, uncounterable and turn after turn.

if you're able to return shaarum you should take the altar anyway instead of a seat IMO (due to testing). So seat seems like a win-more

@soon-man: arbor has summoning sickness and produces the wrong color (-> Fatestitcher)

[Purple Hat]

Careful Study is a bazaar that costs blue mana and you know one of the discards is gonna be careful study.  it's the same CA as bazaar.  +2 for the two draws, -2 for the discards, -1 for the careful study--->draw two, discard 3.

[meadbert]

For me I look at it like this....Its all about games two and three. With a powder version you have to hope your opponent does not draw hate against you. What I mean by that is since Bazaar is your only drawling (unless u mull to anti hate for some reason) it puts you at card disadvantage with the draw 2 discard 3 while playing through the hate. Where as in a mana version of the deck Careful Study, Breakthrough (with the 2-3 mana on it), and Coliseum to a lesser extent depending the hate card can dig for you while minimizing and controlling your card disadvantage.  Also turn one needle, strip, wasteland combined with hate cards sets you back way farther than a countered Careful Study or Breakthrough against hate cards and most of the time the only card you need to worry about is FoW since they USUALLY will be siding out their counters and discard spells. I admit that Powder is better verse spheres, however, vs shop decks even when they get a sphere vs a mana dredge deck usually do not have the pressure to make it game breaking. Also comparing the decks in games two and three the mana version allows FoW more fodder than the Powder version. While I don't have a breakdown on its relevancy between each version, your obviously going to have more blue cards with the mana version.

Serum Powder is better against Duress, Thoughtseize, Spell Pierce, Force of Will, Daze, Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst, Chalice of the Void@1, Trinisphere and Mana Drain.
Breakthrough is better against Strip Mine, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter and Pithing Needle.

What about the actually hate cards though? The relevant ones they bring in after they side out half of those cards you just named........

Breakthrough usually has worse card disadvantage than Bazaar and is fairly terrible for trying to find answers to Leyline.  Discarding your whole hand or all but 1 card is excellent when comboing off, but terrible when trying to answer Leyline/Jailer.  Bazaar is way better in this case.

As bad as Breakthrough is, Careful Study is even worse.  Its effect is worse than one Bazaar of Baghdad activation which means that if I am on the play and I know my opponent has Pithing Needle in hand then I am still better off with Bazaar in hand than Careful Study.

Anyway, Serum Powder is better against graveyard hate than Breakthrough.  Breakthrough and Careful Study's advantages are against Bazaar of Baghdad hate. (Wasteland, Strip Mine, Ghost Quarter, Pithing Needle)

[Ravager Sam]

With the basic precedent established of which version of dredge is better for which matchups, how do you decide when the Sharuum engine (3x Sharuum, LED, Lotus, Altar, Portal) is better than the older setup of FKZ, Iona, AoD, and something along the lines of 4 unmasks or other anti-hate card?  I'm fully aware of the awesome power of the Sharuum engine (in my report, I mentioned mulling to 4 and still managing a turn 2 win), but when is the time right to sacrifice some of that speed for resiliency post-board?

[Adan]

Why? Statements like this without reason appear to be stupid to me nor do they help the community understand your point.

Because I mentioned a thousand times that the format is full of cards that wreck your gameplan of you don't keep a Bazaar. In meadbert's explanation, it appeared that Mana Dredge is actually good against everything that plays Wasteland BUT the decks that play Wastelands also play cards that make your mana-discardoutlets suck (Sphere, Thorn, Chalice1 in Shops, Daze, Spell Pierce and Force in Noble Fish, maybe REB if you play against a Fish with Red).
Therefore I see no reason to run Mana Dredge. And as meadbert said (in case you think he's got way more experience than me - that's might me true, tho), Fatestitcher is simply better than Btrhough because it's not vulnerable against countermagic.

To draw a conclusion on that: Imho, Dredge profits from the fact that it basically doesn't need to play a single spell to win, therefore a lot of ppl will have a fuckload of dead cards stuck in their hand against you. However, if you suddenly make your Dredgedeck dependant on playing spells, you make it fragile at the same time.

Fatestitcher and Bloodghast allow you to speed the deck up like hell WITHOUT making it vulnerable to Duress, Seize, Pierce, Daze, Force, Spheres, etc. - You get the idea.

I'd say that Mana Dredge is the least efficient Dredge build to win a g1.

Serum Powder is better against Duress, Thoughtseize, Spell Pierce, Force of Will, Daze, Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst, Chalice of the Void@1, Trinisphere and Mana Drain.
Breakthrough is better against Strip Mine, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter and Pithing Needle.

What about the actually hate cards though? The relevant ones they bring in after they side out half of those cards you just named...

Okay, you got me on that one because I have absolutely no clue how I would board with Mana Dredge, but I believe you need to cut these dicardoutlets because you just can't afford to Breakthough right into hate... or at least Btrhough sucks at digging for answers.
So in the end you will have the same problems g2 and g3, but increased vulnerability g1.

Further, Bazaar (though not always) is usually better against must-answers like Leyline and Jailor than Study (because of it's reuseability), and Breakthrough (because you dont have to trash/expose to hate the rest of your important game two hand to get an answer... and also reuseability).

He's right, that's what I meant. But I can imagine Careful Study to be nice when the opponent shuts your Bazaar off with Needle.

It appears people forget the mana version of the deck does indeed run bazaars as well...

Yup!