Vintage Adept Q&A #10: Total Recall

[Demonic Attorney]

What are the different tricks with Ancestral Recall?  What I am trying to ask is more than nifty tech-ish tricks, but preferred timing/plays as well as what would be considered correct usage of the card, i.e. turn 1 land pass, recall on upkeep.  I am just trying to get an in general feel of what the best of the best have to say about the best card in the game.  I understand my question is a bit open ended, but it is intentional as to leave room for even the most obscure answer/scenario as well as leading to examples on how to counter act seeing the card, like letting it resolve or not resolve or should i get into a counter war... blah blah blah.  Anyway, I cant wait to hear what you guys have to say.

[Demonic Attorney]

I'll expound more later, but one of my favorite tricks with Ancestral is used when an opponent taps off Drain mana to play a relevant spell and you have Misdirection in hand.  You respond to the threat with Ancestral Recall and if your opponent tries to counter the Ancestral, you Misdirect their counter to their original threat.  Without Drain mana, they're less likely to be able to protect against this play.   

[The Atog Lord]

My favorite use for Ancestral Recall is drawing three cards.

But sometimes the "force opponent to draw 3 cards" portion of the card becomes relevant too. In Dragon, a legitimate kill mechanism is to set off the loop, begin Eternal Witness recursion, and end up forcing the opponent to be on the receiving end of twenty or so copies of the spell. Another use of the card to kill an opponent involves Izzet Guildmage. You can play Reset on your opponent's upkeep with him in play, making copies of Reset in a mana-generative manner. You can then stack Ancestral Recall and copy it ad infinitum. Craig Dupree played such a deck at Myriad Games. Finally, Ancestral Recall can be used to destroy an Ichorid player who is not being properly cautious.

[Grand Inquisitor]

preferred timing/plays

A lot of this will be obvious, but I'm trying to be comprehensive here.

When to play Ancestral Recall

As early, safely and often as possible.

With Ancestral Recall in game 1 opening hand on the play...
(1) Do you have a FoW (or other) to back it up?
(2) Do you have enough cards so that drawing 3 will keep you under 8?
(3) Do you have other plays that may be superior?

If you get Y, Y, N, then I say go for it.

If you don't have (1), you should make some considerations.  Do I have other gas?  Do I know what my opponent is playing?  Do I know him and think I'm a better player?  Do I have a winning record and can afford more risk?  If you answer yes to these, I'd say it may be a good gamble.  This is very meta specific.  Right now (at least where I play) Misdirection is rather infrequent.  Trading Ancestral for an opposing FoW+Blue Card (provided you have other gas and are on the play) is often acceptable.

If you don't have (2) just wait until the opponents upkeep.  It used to be that you'd wait to respond to duress/seize, sapphire/petal/lotus, any spell or just wait until they're end step to see if they'll give you more information on what they're playing before going forward.  However, now that Spell Pierce is around, I don't think that is worth the risk.

If you do have (3), it can get pretty complicated.  If I have something sorcery speed (Dark Confidant, Oath+Orchard, etc) and playing it will keep me from responding with Ancestral (to Duress or another threat, e.g.) then often I will play Ancestral on the upkeep and follow the next turn with the sorcery speed threat.  This is especially true if the sorcery speed play won't reap immediate benefit (Dark Confidant, tutor for something besides FoW, Ponder, etc).  If you have something instant speed (TFK, Brainstorm, Gifts, Vamp), the opposite is often true.  I'll even wait to become susceptible to Spell Pierce to try these as bait and then follow up with Ancestral and maybe even use these to better protect it (if they find FoW, Duress, etc).

With Ancestral Recall in game 1 opening hand on the draw...

In many matchups on the draw means you'll be playing catch up.  You've already lost the race to Duress and Spell Pierce.  You can still try to use the above logic to avoid them getting Mana Drain online, but this is really tricky.  I'd say at least as often, you want to be more defensive, make sure you keep your own Drain/Spell Pierce up and even wait to respond to a spell before deciding you want to cast your Ancestral.  Cards in hand and plays by the opponent can shift this a lot, but the underlying logic is that the longer the game goes with no major plays, the more their advantage of going first is undermined by your advantage of drawing one additional card.

(I'll try to add more scenarios later, but this is a start)

[Demonic Attorney]

This is mostly a response to GI, so I'll post it separately than any elaboration on my own response earlier. 

I look at Ancestral from almost the opposite perspective-- risk minimization.  Someone recently said in the "Sum of its Parts" thread that control mirrors often depend on who gets Ancestral to resolve first.  I'm not sure if I agree with that assessment, but if we assume for the sake of argument that Ancestral is that significant, then making sure it does its job should be an overriding priority.  Conversely, it's critical to make sure that you don't lose the opportunity to reap the reward that casting Ancestral can give you.

Running out Ancestral without some insurance to make sure it gets there (Duress, Spell Pierce, Force, etc.), at least when the opponent has more cards than you, seems like it's inviting the risk of getting your AR stopped.  Even worse, control decks are known to run Misdirection on occasion, and getting your AR Misdirected almost certainly means you've lost.

In fact, I'll use an example that involves me and GI.  During the Gush era, we were paired in one of the later rounds of an ELD tournament.  In Game 2, we were both out of gas and he had some minor pressure on the board (I think it was a Psychatog).  At the critical juncture of the game, I drew AR off the top of my deck as the only card in my hand.  GI had 2 cards in his.  I think he'd used at least 1, maybe 2 Forces, so I thought it was safe to assume that the size of his hand and the probability of drawing another Force of Will meant my AR wouldn't get countered.

So I prefaced my play with the words, "I sure hope those 2 cards aren't Misdirection and a blue card" and went for it.  Well, as you probably guessed, that was exactly what they were and I effectively lost right there.  If I had it to do over again, I'd have waited for a Duress or a counter to back up my AR, or a threat to bait with at the end of his turn.  It was a calculated risk, to be sure, but I undervalued the danger of losing as a result of my AR gambit going badly. 

An example from the other side comes from Round 7 of Waterbury X, when I was paired with Glix in a match that determined whether one of us would go on to the top 8.  In Game 1, I had AR in my hand at a very early juncture, but I also had lots of other business that wasn't as risky (artifact acceleration, TFK's, a Gifts).  I could have risked the game and gone for the AR, but instead I settled for smaller gains that weren't as risky, and chained together some of my lesser draw spells.  The AR didn't get played until we were in the middle of an endgame counterwar and I was convinced he couldn't steal it through my protection.  I held onto the smaller advantage my other spells gave me and went on to take the match.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I agree with your examples, but my stance was based on (1) a metagame low on MisD, as I believe the current one is, (2) first two turns and (3) having other gas.

[Anusien]

I assume my opponents have Misdirection until I see evidence to the contrary.  Getting Ancestral Misdirected is so backbreaking, I don't want to risk it.  If I don't think they have it, I'll run Ancestral out anytime they're tapped out because if they have to pitch to Force of Will, that's also +2 cards.  Otherwise, I'll cast it when I need to (in a counter war).

[Grand Inquisitor]

I assume my opponents have Misdirection until I see evidence to the contrary.

Really?  Like, that's an interesting to say, but do you really play that way?  I like to think I play pretty conservatively, but that's amazingly risk averse

[Anusien]

I assume my opponents have Misdirection until I see evidence to the contrary.

Really?  Like, that's an interesting to say, but do you really play that way?  I like to think I play pretty conservatively, but that's amazingly risk averse

I don't necessarily pretend they have Force + Misdirection, so I'm not always afraid to run it out turn 1 with Force backup (if I'm on the play and don't have to worry about Daze and Spell Pierce).  But until you know, you can never run it out with protection.  It takes a more combo-like list to play Misdirection; if they cast Dark Confidant, chances are they don't have Misdirection.  It's about getting a feel for which version of Mana Drains they're playing.  If they don't have Drains, all bets are off course.

[Smmenen]

I'll expound more later, but one of my favorite tricks with Ancestral is used when an opponent taps off Drain mana to play a relevant spell and you have Misdirection in hand.  You respond to the threat with Ancestral Recall and if your opponent tries to counter the Ancestral, you Misdirect their counter to their original threat.  Without Drain mana, they're less likely to be able to protect against this play.    

This is a great play, and I was going to suggest the same thing, but with Mindbreak Trap, which is insane because it removes their original threat from game.   This can be very important if you are countering the right threat, like Time Vault.  

To answer the more general question, the correct answer as to when to play Ancestral Recall depends on a host of factors.  Here are some of them:

1) How important is Ancestral to your deck?   The more important Ancestral is to your game plan the more certain you will want to be that it resolves.  For example, in Meandeck Gifts resolution of Ancestral was very critical.  In Control Slaver, it was far less critical.  In more modern contexts, in my Confidant Control deck, it is very , very important to resolve, but far less important in something like TPS or 5c Stax, and Ancestral is often great bait in those decks.

2) How likely is it that it will resolve?   This question interacts with the first question.    For example, there is simple math available to make rough calculations about how liikely your opponent may have a counter in their opening hand, etc.    

3) What is the function of Ancestral in the matchup?  While drawing three cards is a universal effect of Ancestral Recall, the precise role of Ancestral varies from deck to deck and matchup.  This is a similar, but different question to 1.   For example, in some decks, Ancestral is a critical development card that helps you build other resources.   In 4 Merchant Scroll decks, Ancestral was a very important development play.   In other matchups, it's a tempo play.    The more Ancestral is an important tempo play, the more important it is to fire it off early.   The less it is a tempo/development play and the more it is about staying ahead of your opponent in card advantage, as it is in mono blue ophidian decks, then the less important it is to fire off Ancestral earlier, and the more likely it is that Ancestral can be saved for later, particulalry when you are more confidant that it will resolve.  

4) What is the consequence/risk matrix if your opponent Misdirects it?   If the consequence of your opponent Misdirecting it, and their misdirection resolving is very severe, then you will want to increase the chances that it resolve in your favor or not play it at all.   If the downsides are less severe, then you may wish to fire it off and take a chance.   This will often depend on the other cards in hand and your opponent's situation.

All of these considerations and more interact to create a decision matrix as to when and how to play Ancestral.  

[voltron00x]

I agree with your examples, but my stance was based on (1) a metagame low on MisD, as I believe the current one is, (2) first two turns and (3) having other gas.

Your belief is correct, based on the results from the Philly Open.  MisD was hardly played, so assuming opponents have it is probably not correct at the moment.  That doesn't mean it hasn't been right in the past and won't be right in the future, however.

[meadbert]

Here are some historical uses for Ancestral Recall although some no longer apply much.

1)  With  you can play Ancestrall Recall with Remand backup.  Rather than Remanding your opponent's counter, you instead Remand your own Ancestral Recall and thus your Remand gets you an Ancestral Recall and draws a card.

2)  With 5 Color Uba Stax if your opponent Mystical, Vamps or Seals for a sorcery speed bomb (Tinker/Yawg/Vault/Key) with Uba Mask out then you can Recall them EOT or during your turn to RFG the said bomb.  This is more common than it sounds at first because with Uba Mask out if they rip Mystical or Vamp off the top then must go ahead and play it on their turn so you do have an opportunity to do this.

3)  You can deck an opponent:
  3.A - Infinite Recalls with Animate Dead, Worldgorger Dragon and Eternal Witness.
  3.B - Oath Oaths up last creature with fewer than 3 cards left in Library and Blessing on the stack.
  3.C - Oath Oath up entire Library and then moves to Krosan Reclamation.
  4.D - As a Dredge player I lost when I got greedy and Dredged down to 3 cards to find my last Therapy to stop an EOT Gifts for the win.  My opponent cast Gifts in response for Demonic, Vamp, Mystical and Scroll.  I took one and the other found Recall to deck me.

4)  You can copy Ancestral Recall with Izzet Guildmage.  The tough decision used to be whether you copy and then pass priority (giving a chance for 6 card) or if instead you do not copy and then only copy if they have a counter.

5)  You can mess up someone's Hellbent.  I have only done this on MWS since no tournament vintage decks use that mechanic.

6)  Testing against a casual type 1 deck I have lost to Recall with Underwordl Dreams out.  The same sort of thing applies with Black Vice.  Neither happens in tournament play.

[Eastman]

In the control mirror it is fantastic bait when you are also holding will.  I agree with all of the other uses as well, and obviously it is very situational, but if you have both been staring across the divide at each other, and ancestral on their EOT can force them to tap out/counter as much as possible, and resolve nothing more threatening than a gifts ungiven.  Often in that situation they will either blow all of their counters just to stop the ancestral, or they will win and poke their gifts through and pick up a pile of sorceries to win on the next turn - a turn they will never get.

[TheBrassMan]

Related to Eastman's post: I noticed a strange phenomenon during the Gifts era, where in the mirror, very often the first player to *lose* a counter war would win the game.  This information won me a lot of mirrors, and many of the times that counter war specifically involved an Ancestral not resolving.  While probably less true today, it's always important to know when to fight over a card, and when to lose a fight on purpose.  Ancestral is one of the harder cards to gauge in this respect.

[vroman]

Someone recently said control mirrors often depend on who gets Ancestral to resolve first.

Resolving it first is not completely critical. I would say the real rubrik is who can resolve their Recall, and deny their opponents Recall.
In the situations
A) Neither player resolves Recall
B) Both players resolve Recall
C) Player X resolves Recall and player Z does not.
In situation C player X should win on the margin. In situation B the first player to resolve Recall does not necessarily has a decisive advantage.

[forests failed you]

Some things I have done with Ancestral Recall that people have not mentioned yet.

1.  Imprint it on Isochron's Scepter.

2.  If you or an opponent have two Chains of Meph in play you can use Ancestral to Mind Twist somebody.

3.  Opponent is on a Memory Jar hand but runs out of Mana and can't go off that turn, the last thing he does is Mystical Tutor for Yawgmoth's Will so he can draw it on his next upkeep and play it.  I Ancestral him with the last Jar trigger on the stack so he has to draw the Yawgmoth's Will and then discard it with the rest of his jar cards.

4.  Mindslaver somebody, tutor for their Ancestral Recall and then make them cast it targeting me.

5.  Use it as a decoy in a Gifts pile to trick dummies into giving me unbeatable cards.  "well I can't give  you recall..."