MonoR Stax and the optimal use of Bazaar of Baghdad

[Shean]

This was my article for the TMD Promotion exam and, as such, I am hereby posting it.

Let me start this by saying that I am not known as an excellent Stax player.  I'm sure most people don't even know who I am.  Moreover, most of my T8s and wins have come from behind a Mana Drain based deck.  However, after taking a year-or-so break from Vintage, I came back to find my favorite Mana Drain based deck, Control Slaver, mostly dead from the restriction of Thirst for Knowledge.

When I decided to start attending tournaments again, I also had to decide what to play.  I tested GW Beats, BUG Fish, Tezz, Vroman Oath, Steel City Vault, and more.  I decided to give Stax a try for a few reasons:  Firstly, I believe Null Rod to be the best hate card in the current format.  You may not agree with me, but that's another discussion for another thread.  Secondly, I have only played Stax in one tournament before the last few weeks.  I believe that the ability to play all of the archetypes in a given format is necessary to understand how to play against them.

Firstly, this is the list that I played to T8 at the Meandeck Open:

4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Barbarian Ring
3x Mountain
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x Tolarian Academy

1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Crypt
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Vault

4x Goblin Welder

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Tangle Wire
4x Smokestack
4x Null Rod
4x Crucible of Worlds
1x Trinisphere
1x Memory Jar

Sideboard:

4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Shattering Spree
3x Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3x Greater Gargadon
2x Ensnaring Bridge

Keep in mind that I did not create this list.  The link to the original list on Morphling.de can be found here:  http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1151&highlight=7#place7

Notice that I cut 3 cards from his SB and replaced them with 3x Greater Gargadon.  After losing to Vroman in Lindenhurst the weekend before, a match where the winner would make T8, I didn't feel that I had enough hard answers to Oath in the sideboard.  I discussed this a bit with Soly after the tournament, but was really convinced after talking to Doug Linn quite a bit a few days before the tournament.  I didn't get a chance to play against Oath at the Meandeck Open, but in testing the Greater Gargadon has been very good.  It is also splash damage against the UW beats/fish variants due to the amount of artifact hate they run, since you can sacrifice any artifacts they target for destruction to it.  Suspending this guy with a chalice for 1 out also makes it very hard for beats/fish to answer it.

While this thread is more intended to focus on the interaction of Bazaar of Baghdad within the deck, I feel that some explanation of why I believe this list to be the best Stax list currently is in order:

Firstly, all of the lock pieces in the deck are cards that you want to see with regularity.  I believe that running 4-ofs for all of your lock pieces provides higher consistency, while also reducing the effect of your opponent destroying one of your lock pieces, since you have a higher chance of drawing another.

Secondly, Twaun has posted an excellent primer to his B/R Stax deck which utilizes Dark Confidant.  I think the deck is extremely well thought out and definitely has the ability to compete; however, I believe that MonoR is superior for a couple of reasons.  With MonoR, there is no chance that you cannot cast one of your colored spells, provided that you have a color producing land.  While, in testing, I haven't found this to be a huge problem, it has come up once or twice, due to having only a Barbarian Ring out or only a Cabal Pit out and drawing the opposite color.

I also prefer the MonoR list to Twaun's version because I don't like the damage taken from Dark Confidant.  While I understand that the CMC of the deck is extremely low, I do not believe this damage is acceptable against the increasingly popular beatdown decks.  I find that many games I am stabilizing below 5 life to win games.  This actually happened to me twice at the Meandeck Open, once against GU Fish (2 life) and once against MonoR ShopAggro (1 life).

Lastly, I prefer this list because it runs 4x Bazaar of Baghdad, which I believe to be the best draw/discard engine in Stax.  I also prefer to run 4x Barbarian Ring, which I will explain in greater detail later.

Bazaar is one of the most difficult cards in Vintage to use correctly.  I wasn't suprised when Vroman, renowned as one of the best Stax players of all time, replied to Steve Menendian's post by saying that Bazaar of Baghdad is the most skill intensive card in Vintage.  While I'm not 100% sure that I agree with him (Gifts may be harder), if Bazaar isn't first, its definitely second in my list.

Why is Bazaar so hard to use properly?  The simple answer is that it is card disadvantage.  In Vintage we constantly discuss card advantage and similar theories behind what makes a card good or bad.  If Bazaar of Baghdad wasn't a land, or cost mana to activate, it wouldn't be nearly as powerful as it is currently.

Keeping in mind that Bazaar is card disadvantage, let's take this one step further and talk about draw step disadvantage.  Bazaar lets you see two more cards and potentially keep those cards if your hand size permits.  It costs you 1 land drop one time and 1 draw step every time to see these cards.  This is clearly giving an advantage to your opponent, unless you have some added benefit from putting those cards into the graveyard.  More on that in a bit.

So when is the correct time to activate your Bazaar?  This is the hardest question that I had to answer when testing a deck with 4x Bazaar in it.  Firstly, to correctly activate Bazaar, I believe that you need to know your deck's list inside and out.  We have already mentioned that you are putting yourself at a disadvantage by losing a card, and effectively nullifying a draw step.  However, Bazaar can be extremely potent when searching for that lock piece you desperately need.

To correctly use Bazaar, you need to ask yourself these questions before you tap it, "What am I looking for?  Will I care about discarding any of these cards?"  The answer to your first question is mainly based upon your current board position, your opponent's board position, and your cards in hand.  One example that I remember from the Meandeck Open (my memory with these things is terrible, so it might not be 100% accurate):

I was playing against MonoR ShopAggro.  I remember having, in play: Tangle Wire, Smokestack (1 counter), 2 mox, Crucible, and a Mountain.  I also remember having no lands in the graveyard.  My hand was Smokestax, Crucible, and Bazaar.  I decided to play Bazaar, activate it, and hope to see a welder.  I didn't mind pitching my Smokestack, since I already had one active on the board.  My thought process here was that if I saw the Welder, I could basically lock him out of the game by ramping the Smokestack to 2 after sacrificing 1 permanent next turn.  Then, I could weld it for the other Smokestack in the graveyard on his EOT and set it to 1, which would give me a 2 permanent advantage, which is huge in the Shop mirror.  On the other hand, I could also get a Wasteland or Strip Mine, which also would immediately lock him out of the game, due to the amount of non-basics that Shop decks run.  I ended up getting the Welder and I handily won the game 2-3 turns later after welding the chalice back in for 0.

Correct activation of Bazaar is also based upon information that is harder to calculate.  "How soon do I need to see the card I'm looking for?"  If you can take an extra turn to find the answer you need, it may be more beneficial to wait the extra turn to see what you draw.  On the other hand, if you have 4 cards in hand that you don't mind losing, you may want to activate earlier.  This is highly based upon how long you think you can survive.

In this Stax build, Bazaar has obvious synergies with Goblin Welder and Crucible of Worlds.  In fact, when I have one or both in play, I will often activate it with 0 cards in hand, just hoping for that last lock piece I need, or to find the Strip Mine which almost always gets the concession when you have a Crucible with other lock pieces in play.  When doing this, obviously you will activate it at your opponent's EOT; however, make sure you do it again during your upkeep, otherwise you may draw a card you want to hold and will miss this second activation.

Furthermore, the synergy with Barbarian Ring, in this list, is something that I believe is largely missed.  There is no doubt about it:  Dark Confidant and Goblin Welder are bad cards for Stax to see on the other side of the table.  Goblin Welder is quite obvious.  Dark Confidant beats for 2 every turn, which dwindles your life resource, something that Stax largely uses.  Honestly, I feel that the lands that he draws for the opponent is more detrimental to my plan than anything.

With Dark Confidant on the table, you can plan for your opponent to make a land drop every other turn.  Think about what this means.  If every deck ran 30 lands in Vintage, how good would Smokestack or Tangle Wire be?  Terrible.  On top of that, at least 50% of Null Rod's power comes from shutting down Moxen, which is lessened every time your opponent makes a land drop.  Bazaar gets you threshold much earlier, to use your uncounterable answer to Dark Confidant and Goblin Welder.  This is an extremely important part of the deck that I think deserves more discussion.

In one of my games, I had 4 cards in the graveyard.  I had Barbarian Ring in hand, a Bazaar on the table, and a mountain.  I don't remember exactly the gamestate, but my opponent had just cast Goblin Welder and it was going to wreck my soft-lock next turn.  I drew for the turn; discarded 3 cards, giving myself threshold; played Barbarian Ring; and killed the Welder.  If I hadn't answered Welder this turn, I'm sure I would have lost the game, and the match.

Overall, Bazaar of Baghdad remains an extremely difficult card to utilize to its fullest potential.  I do not believe that I have mastered it fully and continue to find situations where I activate it incorrectly or where I find that I should have activated it.  In the end, I hope this has helped share some of my findings with you.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

very good article and congrats on your t8!

What are your sideboard plans for Ichorid? How useful is Tormod's crypt with the protection plan that Ichorid boards? I'm still working on a strategy for that matchup playing shops.

[Shean]

very good article and congrats on your t8!

What are your sideboard plans for Ichorid? How useful is Tormod's crypt with the protection plan that Ichorid boards? I'm still working on a strategy for that matchup playing shops.

Thanks.  

First of all, be it Mana or Manaless Ichorid, your best card G1-3, in my opinion, is Wasteland.  Especially against Manaless, if they keep a hand with Bazaar as the only draw, which they frequently do, and early Wasteland can give you a few turns to get some lock pieces out.  Keep in mind that Sphere is not a dead card against them, as they really need to use Cabal Therapy and Dread Return to win quickly.

-4 Tangle Wire
-4 Null Rod
-1 Memory Jar

+4 Tormod's Crypt
+3 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
+2 Ensnaring Bridge

My thinking here is as follows:

Tangle Wire is pretty dead against them, unless they have Zombie tokens in play, in which case, Tabernacle is a superior card.  Null Rod could be useful if they are using Sharuum as a quick win condition, but most of the time they SB out the Dread Return package and it is extremely anti-synergistic with Tormod's Crypt.  Memory Jar is pretty obvious, you don't want to cast a Draw7 against Ichorid 90% of the time.

Tormod's Crypt is obvious and needs no explanation.

Unless they play Sharuum in the deck, Ensnaring Bridge is another lock piece that they must answer.  Most of the time they answer permanents by bouncing it and then Cabal Therapy to make you discard it.  This is where Sphere and Chalice come in.

Tabernacle is a bit less obvious.  As I said, your Chalice and Sphere keep them off their game plan.  Between Ensnaring Bridge and Welder/Tormod's Crypt, they aren't going to be able to get in there with Ichorid a whole lot, which means that Bloodghast probably won't be hitting the board with haste.  With Tabernacle in play, they can't slow play a Bridge from Below in the graveyard with Ichorid, as they can't pay for the zombie tokens on the upkeep.  Tabernacle forces them to play against their gameplan G2-3, which is, Dredge slow to get some 2/2 tokens or Bloodghast into play and slowly widdle your life down.

As for their protection package G2-3, I really think that the printing of Ravenous Trap has helped the Stax vs. Ichorid G2-3.  Even though I don't play Rav. Trap in my SB, it has forced the Ichorid player to change his SB to include FoW.  This makes me extremely happy as they probably aren't going to be running nearly as many Ancient Grudge or Darkblast.  The only card I care about seeing them FoW is Welder.  Everything else is able to be replayed from the graveyard.

[Twaun007]

Great article fizix!

I've seen so many people under utilize Bazaar of Baghdad. That card is the bees knees in stax.

How has Memory Jar been testing for you? My buddy Nam has used it in his list, but I never could bring myself to use it due to Null Rod in the main.

[Shean]

How has Memory Jar been testing for you? My buddy Nam has used it in his list, but I never could bring myself to use it due to Null Rod in the main.

I really like Memory Jar.  If you get it in the yard with an active Welder, you pretty much win the game.  Although you are correct, it can be clunky with a Null Rod in play, it can always be pitched to Bazaar.

In my testing, Memory Jar is the strongest when you can drop it on turn 1 or 2.  Opponent's EOT crack it to get the 8 cards.  Since you already have at least 5 mana on the board and given that you will most likely draw a land or two and an artifact mana, it will put you between 7-10 mana total.  This usually ends up with 2-3 lock pieces going down on the same turn, which is extremely hard for your opponent to deal with.

[Anusien]

In this Stax build, Bazaar has obvious synergies with Goblin Welder and Crucible of Worlds.  In fact, when I have one or both in play, I will often activate it with 0 cards in hand, just hoping for that last lock piece I need, or to find the Strip Mine which almost always gets the concession when you have a Crucible with other lock pieces in play.  When doing this, obviously you will activate it at your opponent's EOT; however, make sure you do it again during your upkeep, otherwise you may draw a card you want to hold and will miss this second activation.

Why is this obvious?  Shouldn't you do it on your turn to play the land that turn/weld in the lock piece before their upkeep?

[Shean]

In this Stax build, Bazaar has obvious synergies with Goblin Welder and Crucible of Worlds.  In fact, when I have one or both in play, I will often activate it with 0 cards in hand, just hoping for that last lock piece I need, or to find the Strip Mine which almost always gets the concession when you have a Crucible with other lock pieces in play.  When doing this, obviously you will activate it at your opponent's EOT; however, make sure you do it again during your upkeep, otherwise you may draw a card you want to hold and will miss this second activation.

Why is this obvious?  Shouldn't you do it on your turn to play the land that turn/weld in the lock piece before their upkeep?

You're right.  Perhaps I didn't use the best words to explain it.  My point was that its better to activate Bazaar on your upkeep before you draw so that you can keep the card you draw if you want.

[meadbert]

Memory Jar is actually good against Dredge.  It is a means of decking them.  With an active Welder you can potentially Bazaar Jar into the yard during their turn, Weld it in and then deck them.  That is scary.  With an active Welder and Jar in hand or top decked you can hard cast it, activate and then Weld it in again.

EDIT:   And since this thread is about the optimal use of Bazaar in Mono Red Stax I have to ask.  Why no Uba Masks?

[Shean]

Memory Jar is actually good against Dredge.  It is a means of decking them.  With an active Welder you can potentially Bazaar Jar into the yard during their turn, Weld it in and then deck them.  That is scary.  With an active Welder and Jar in hand or top decked you can hard cast it, activate and then Weld it in again.

You are correct, but I feel that it is extremely situational, since you have no way to reliably get your one-of Memory Jar.  However, if you prefer to keep the Jar in, I would take out a Mana Crypt.

EDIT:   And since this thread is about the optimal use of Bazaar in Mono Red Stax I have to ask.  Why no Uba Masks?

I don't feel that Uba Mask is nearly as relevant against the blue control decks currently as it was in the past.  With all of the Dark Confidants running around and the restriction of Brainstorm, Ponder, and Thirst for Knowledge, it simply doesn't cut off enough cards in my opponent's deck.

Right now, the blue control decks are more about tutoring for a bomb that attempts to win the game for them.  Uba Mask does nothing to prevent this.  This list is more about locking their mana out so they can't play the bomb they got with the tutor.

[vroman]

Here is my Bazaar tutorial
http://unpopularideasclub.blogspot.com/2009/12/collapsing.html

[Twaun007]

Here is my Bazaar tutorial
http://unpopularideasclub.blogspot.com/2009/12/collapsing.html

Cool tutorial. I see people misuse Bazaar often and hopefully this helps them out.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

And since this thread is about the optimal use of Bazaar in Mono Red Stax I have to ask.  Why no Uba Masks?

Uba Mask was more relevant when people played with four brainstorm.

[meadbert]

Once upon a time someone (probably Evenpence, Vroman or Yesphuden) told me that Uba Stax was either about mana denial or spell denial.  Smokestack, Waste, Crucible and Rod function as mana denial.  Uba Mask, Chalice of the Void and also Null Rod can function as spell denial.

Uba Mask was ideal in the Gush meta when opponents usually had 4 Gush and 4 Brainstorm and wanted to Scroll for Recall.  It got worse after the mass restrictions, but was still strong against Thirst.  It got worse yet again when Thirst was restricted.  As an individual lock component Uba Mask has never been weaker, but is has been close.  Consider some of the historical metagames that it faced:
1) Slaver - Getting Uba Locked by your own lock card is brutal.
2) Meandeck Gifts - Uba Mask does not touch Gifts and frequently Scroll would simply put Gifts in hand or find Rebuild.
3)  Long - While Uba Mask is good for stopping incremental card advantage over time, once in top deck mode Uba Mask would transform Brainstorms into Ancestral Recalls.
4)  5 Color Stax - See #1.
5)  Shop Aggro - See #1.

Just on the basis of which engine Uba Mask is best against one would expect that it would have been awesome during the Gush era and decent during the Thirst/Tez era but really struggled during the Slaver, 5 Color Stax, Meandeck Gifts and Pitch Long eras.  This actually matches up with some of my own testing, but it does not match up at all with tournament results.  Vroman had some of his best successes at times when Slaver, 5 Color Stax, Meandeck Gifts and Long were prevalent and never had much success at all during the Gush era.  This leads me to believe that Uba Mask needs to be considered in a broader context than just whether it is good against a certain draw engine.

Getting back to Mana Denial vs Spell Denial.  Which is better right now?  The problem with mana denial is the low casting cost of threats and the large number of lands in current decks.  I see Tez decks with 17 lands all the time.  The primary draw engine only costs 2 (Dark Confidant) and the primary win condition costs 1 and 2 (Vault and Key).  Although Uba Mask's strengths against certain draw engines has weakened its value for denying spells through an Uba Lock is more important.

Uba Mask in conjunction with Bazaar is as strong as ever.  Uba Mask with Welder out is possibly stronger now since you can prevent Vault and Key from hitting more easily.

None of this is meant to disagree about Uba Mask being bad right now.  What I am saying is it is a bit more complicated than just saying it is weak against a certain draw engine.

[Mantis]

@meadbert: While you perform a solid analysis, I don't think Uba Mask can still compete. First of all you do not take into account that in both era's you described Brainstorm was always played as a 4-of and Uba Mask is very strong against Brainstorm. With the restriction of Brainstorm, Uba Mask has lost a lot of its potency. Moreso when you factor in that Dark Confidant has become the de facto draw engine, not is Dark Confidants ability not effected by UMask, if you happen to rip him off the top with UMask out, you can still play him where you Thirst for Knowledge or Gush hardly do anything in this case. Another engine that is rapidly taking over the format is Oath of Druids, again Uba Mask suffers the same problems here it does against Confidant ie it does nothing to stop the engine from hitting play nor does it stop the ability.

I just can not imagine Uba Mask being good given the current format.

[GNU]

I'm a huge fan of the Mono Red Staxs, I find it the most consistant version of staxs due to the high number of 4 ofs. I'm curious to hear peoples opinions on what they cut to fit Lodestone Golem into the deck, or if he even made it into the deck. As I'm really struggling to work out what to cut. I know most games are won by opponents being locked out and just scooping, but the ablity to steal games cause you have a quick clock can't be deny'd. As there have been plenty of games were my opponent and I are in topdeck mode with not much happening, and a dude probably would have won me the game.

I'm aware this is an old thread, but didn't really feel like it required a new thread. If this is wrong please delete.

[TheShop]

Why not just cut the 4 Uba Masks from an old Vroman build and add 4 Lodestone?  It gives a nice sphere that the deck never had.  I like the consistent power of this deck very very much.  I like the way it handles and is slightly more flexible than MUD. 

[credmond]

In a deck packing 4 bazaars, Uba Mask will always be golden as a singleton. I would run a singleton Mask over a 4th crucible or a 4th null rod.

[Delha]

In a deck packing 4 bazaars, Uba Mask will always be golden as a singleton. I would run a singleton Mask over a 4th crucible or a 4th null rod.

Jace can break Mask even harder than Bazaar, so I wouldn't necessarily consider it an autoinclude.

Edit: Spelling iz gud.

[TheShop]

Getting Jace into play or them is a fantasy compared to you gettin mask into play, but even mask got cut when draw went out the window due to restriction.  I think mask is weaker than it was in 2005 and lodestone is a house.  Bazaar isn't broken because of mask, it's broken because of crucible, welder, an your personal need to cycle locked out cards...not necessarily outdraw opponent.

Lodestone does have some mask-like traits as well: it also stops them from playing with the hand they are attempting to build like mask did.

Lastly, the most recent vroman lists already ran 4 chalice and only 3 rod...so you can't cut #4 rod for a mask...they don't even serve the same function so this makes no sense to me.  I think a good starting point would be:

1 3sphere
4 chalice
3 rod
4 stack
4 wire
4 lodestone
4 crucible
2 duplicant

4 welder

5 mox
1 crypt
1 vault
1 sol
1 lotus
4 bazaar
4 shop
4 waste
1 strip
1 academy
4 b-ring
3 mountain

ie- vroman's 2005 list, -4 mask, +4 lodestone, -1 rod, +1 crucible?/stack?/dup?

I have been thinking about dropping the 2 dup for scultping steel, but oath seems strong now.  I love lodestone fitted to this older build because the build always need a better clock and benefits from a weldable wall.  Having a sphere on the wall has been the last nail in the coffin for me a few times.

[credmond]

There is much more impact to the game state when you put the first uba mask on the table than when you put a second crucible or a second null rod into play.

[TheShop]

Assuming you find and play any of the above through counterspells...or if countered, that you find a second copy.  You run no tutors or real draw...so multiples = good.  Plus, this is almost exactly what vroman ran to win multiple lotuses.

[Leooooh]

Hey,

Thanks for posting again on this old post. I have the same questions as you guys about the addintion (if possible or not) of Lodestone Golem on MonoRed Stax. This build is in my opinion much more versatile than MUD, with more answers to other decks. Below is my current list. 

// Lands
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Tolarian Academy
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    4  Barbarian Ring
    3 [BRB] Mountain (7)

// Creatures
    4  Goblin Welder
    4  Lodestone Golem

// Spells
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Trinisphere
    3  Crucible of Worlds
    4  Tangle Wire
    4  Smokestack
    3  Null Rod
    4  Chalice of the Void
    4  Sphere of Resistance

I don't think that cutting Spheres of Resistence is a good idea. They help this deck in so many ways, either achieving the lock or by killing with Lodestone. It also makes some of your spells uncounterable with wire. My greatest concern now is how can I add at least 2 Duplicants maindeck, as an answer for oath and for fish?
I really don't know what to cut.

Leo

[TheShop]

I am in the school of thought that says 4 chalice and 3-4 rods replace those spheres in similar builds.  Also, lodestone is a sphere...so it's not like there are 0 spheres.

[Leooooh]

I see your point. Well, then I think you should up to 4 rods to make sure it comes fast......But I still think that the Spheres effect are very valueble. You might even try Thorns, wich won't affect casting Lodestone, Dups and Welder.

What are you planning to use in the side to fight oath? I think, the best way to deal with oath is preventing it to resolve, and if resolved, Dup with Welder are the way to go, since Tera, can't hit creatures.

We also need to worry against Ichorid, since the g1 is almost a bye for them against this kind of deck.

[swawagon]

Leoooooh Interesting I have a very very similar build I have been testing. In that list the biggest question for me has been Chalice of the Void. What do you set it at? 1 Shuts off your Welder... You already have Null Rod so zero isn't as useful. Chalice is certainly good, but it seems the odd card in this build. It's most common use was when you are already set up a low casting cost artifact to cast at zero and then weld out.

Chalice has also been very useful set at one in games two and three shutting off Nature's Claim.

Chalice is a finesse card, care to share your Chalice thoughts?

1 Dupe and 1 Sculpting Steel round out threats pretty nicely.

By lowering the Barbarian Ring count and playing Taigas, running your own Nature's Claim perhaps is a valid place to take the deck?

[TheShop]

your decks normally have something like:
4x Chalice
4x Null Rod

Do you feel like this is redundant hate overall or weak in the creature match?

On the play turn 1, chalice and null rod serve the same function, of preventing enemy from ever using moxen. this is good to have 7-8 ways (I only play 3null now) to consistently neuter their acceleration before they have turn, in the 50% times you get to go first.
after enemy has had turn, then null and chalice no longer do the same thing. null still exists to shut down whatever mana they have invested to the board, and combo-wins. chalice becomes more crafty though, bc now its job is to stop critical non-mana spells. if they have not yet used their anestrecall, then of course chalice@1. if they already use ancestrecall, then chalice@3 to stop tinker/yawg/rebuild is best. and if you know they tutor for something, hit that number. situations get complicated and there are many strategies. chalice is very skill after turn 1.

that was from an old pm...I was reading reports where he chalices himself out of welders that are in hand and doesn't care because he doesn't have a way on the board to abuse welder or their play is more devastating so welder doesn't get played.

[Leooooh]

By lowering the Barbarian Ring count and playing Taigas, running your own Nature's Claim perhaps is a valid place to take the deck?

I had this idea too, but I still haven't tested it yet. Maybe 2 barbarian rings for 4 taigas and a fetch? I need to test this.

Leoooooh Interesting I have a very very similar build I have been testing. In that list the biggest question for me has been Chalice of the Void. What do you set it at?

It depends. When you are on the play chalice at 0, after playing your moxen is really strong. It can be played at zero in the rest of the game, preventing your oponent to cast more moxens to feed smokestacks and wires. Setting chalice at 2 against fish, tezz and Oath is a really strong play. Stronger if they didn't play the oath yet. Like you said, in games 2 and 3 chalice at one is amazing to prevent swords from fish, and nature's claim from a varity of decks. That's a poor sum of ways to use chalice.

1 Dupe and 1 Sculpting Steel round out threats pretty nicely.

What are you planning to cut to add those cards? I would prefer 2 Dupes or even Duplicant and Platinum angel, like Tommy K. used in a stax variant in the past. It is a main answer to Inkwel, Tera and oddly enough against ichorid.

By lowering the Barbarian Ring count and playing Taigas, running your own Nature's Claim perhaps is a valid place to take the deck?

I had this idea too, but I still haven't tested it yet. Maybe 2 barbarian rings for 4 taigas and a fetch? I need to test this.

I am testing something like this as the sideboard right now!

3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Bojuka Bog
3 Ensnaring Bridge  
3 Duplicant
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Null Rod

What is your current list swawagon?

[Leooooh]

Where did you find those reports? Could you please post the link, because this can be used to learn new plays!
 
Thanx

[TheShop]

I didn't keep a list of them, but they are in the archived TMD files under tournament reports.  Even though he doesn't always win, just seeing the mental process for determining plays is very insightful.  Plus many of them are entertaining.  I will try to link a few later tonight, but it may be just as fast to look in the old tourney reports forum for his posts.

The Uba Stax parties like it's 2005 report on this forum is equally insightful as to the red stax thought process.  I am not sure where all of this is since the reorganization.

[BC]

The Uba Stax parties like it's 2005 report on this forum is equally insightful as to the red stax thought process.  I am not sure where all of this is since the reorganization.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37539.0

My current list:

4 Bazaar
4 Shop
4 B-Ring
3 Mountain
2 Ancient Tomb
0 Lotus
0 Mana Vault
7 Sol/Crypt/Moxen
1 Academy
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

4 Welder
4 Lodestone

4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice
3 Crucible
3 Smokestack
4 Resistor
3 Null Rod/Thorn of Amethyst (still not decided)
1 Trinisphere

Side:
3 Duplicant
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Greater Gargadon
2 Jester's Cap
3 Viashino Heretic