What should the goal of TMD be?

[Anusien]

Something Brassy's been making me think about.  If you have an option I need to add, let me know.  Post your answer and why.  Right now you can only select three, if you want more, let someone know.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Promoting the format is my number-one goal for Vintage.  I also use TMD to find out about Vintage tournaments.

[Matt]

"Promoting the format" is not a well-defined choice.

I only thought two worked so I only voted for two.

[Yare]

Feel free to talk about goals other than the ones listed in the poll if you feel that the poll choices aren't sufficiently broad.

[LotusHead]

I too only picked two choices, but the Tourney Announcement and Tourney Reports/Results is by far my favorite forums here.  

Also, TMD has the only Rules Forum that I can really trust.  Thanks Clariax and others!

[Juggernaut GO]

Make myself look good/a place to generate my reptuation

obviously.


What else could possibly be the reason for tournament reports.

Does any of this really matter?  People hardly play vintage any longer.  This forum does not even come close to being as relevant as it was in 2004.

[T00L]

Oh wow I'm surprised this topic got off the Adept Lounge. Well I voted for promoting vintage.

[personalbackfire]

Does any of this really matter?  People hardly play vintage any longer.  This forum does not even come close to being as relevant as it was in 2004.

Then maybe thats what these forums should be trying to accomplish, to promote vintage and the growth of it.

[Anusien]

The reason I'm asking is because TMD is run by an implicit set of goals that I don't think are clear to anyone.  I asked the Adepts and Moderators the same question.  I'm using this to suggest a direction TMD should goal to fulfill an explicit set of goals.

[TracerBullet]

I would further argue that this forum is worthless outside of having a place to announce tournaments.

...and complain about how crappy it is.

I think the overall decline in T1 over the last few years has produced the corresponding decline in TMD, not the other way around.  TMD's goal should be to be the home for T1 on the internet, primarily as a competitive format but also as a social gathering point.  Type One has no other common gathering place.  That's the function that BDominia served, that TMD took up the banner for.

[sean1i0]

I think that the goals of TMD should be to produce the best decks/tech, be the biggest Vintage forum, and to promote the Vintage format.  Really, I think that it's super important that TMD promotes Vintage, because if this site doesn't, then there aren't many other places that will.  At all.  As avid type 1 players we need to keep interest in this format rich and flavorful.  If we don't, then players will eventually just drop off from this amazing way to sling magical cards.  After that, I think this should be the biggest Vintage forum so that it can accomplish the first goal.  Promoting the format doesn't really work if no one reads the stuff here.  The more people we have reading these forums though, the more we can infuse them with how much fun casting these cards really can be.  Finally, we should be a forum that does serious work in moving forward this format.

Let me just say though that I am recently returning to Vintage and it's amazing how much I realized that I missed it!  My hiatus was necessary due to life and how it changes, but I am excited to be back.  But, if TMD did not still exist I would not have known where to even start.  It's the absolute first place that I thought of going to read when I decided to jump back in.  I love this site and I think that we should always keep it as great as it can possibly be.

[LordHomerCat]

The best decks and tech will come from Team Boards.  That's just reality.

I voted promote the format (which it is in a position to actually do), keep up with friends because that is kinda what it can actually do, and disseminate decks to the masses (as that is the closest you are gonna get to seeing the best decks on here).  The days of everyone in vintage posting all their ideas here are looooooong over, and no one good posts real decks on here until they have won something already or they have given up.  That's fine, because it lets the masses tinker with them, but that is the goal you should be striving for, not some ridiculous "i wish it was still 2002" open vintage forum which will never come again.

[Will]

I think the main thing that this site provides for me at least is to allow me to discuss my ideas with other players I respect.  My reasoning behind this is that I play paper magic at most 3 times a week at which point I can talk to my friends, but compare that to TMD.  On TMD I can talk to thousands upon thousands of different players many of which are guaranteed to have the same interests or thoughts as me for specific topics that pique my interest.  Producing the best decks/ tech is a key component and while team forums are where this mainly occurs, the Tournament Reports and Results do this as well.  I always enjoy sifting through the decks and talking to my friends about what crazy deck Top8d or which Sideboard cards a specific player ran that I otherwise would never have thought of.  Lastly, I chose spreading ideas to the masses because that is what Tournament Reports do.  Sure the site tries to promote Vintage but I feel the 3 answers I chose narrow down this broad topic which I do agree with. 

[Diakonov]

1.

Promote the format Vintage

This is one of those things I think that goes without saying.  We all love Vintage here, and we all would like to see it grow, and it doesn't really require anything much from us to show people how enjoyable it is other than playing the game and discussing it.  In other words, while it is an extremely important goal, I don't think that it really needs to be a "conscious" one. 

2.

Help you keep up with friends

Let this include "Vintage-opponent networking."  There is a community that is held together by TMD, part of it social, part of it competitive.  This is where I, and everyone I know, goes for learning about tournaments to attend. 

3.

Allow me to discuss ideas with other players I respect
Allow me to spread ideas to the masses

This is for me, personally.  I really enjoy discussing Magic theory, so that is probably the main time commitment for me on TMD.  Such as this thread, for example.

4.

Be the biggest Vintage forum
Be the most famous/popular Vintage forum
Produce the best Vintage decks/tech
Make myself look good/a place to generate my reptuation

Really?  I can't think of another forum that even comes close to TMD in terms of size/popularity for Vintage.  Besides, these things should fall into place anyway if we're succeeding at the other goals listed.  Also,

The best decks and tech will come from Team Boards.  That's just reality.

QFT.  When I look for competition, I don't exactly think of TMD as my "team."  TMD is the arena.  Providing the best deck lists on here prematurely is like handing your war plans over to the enemy.

[Anusien]

If the primary goal of TMD should be to promote the format (as most people seem to think), does that change the way it should be structured?

[pierce]

the goal of TMD should be . . .

world domination

OBV

[nataz]

If the primary goal of TMD should be to promote the format (as most people seem to think), does that change the way it should be structured?

Yes.

Having an advanced, open, and improvement forum only serves to highlight and reinforce the notion of elitism that we as a community desperately try and distance ourselves from. It's ridiculous that on a board with as little traffic as this, people with an underdeveloped understanding of the format get shunted into the backwater of an already underpopulated knowledge pool.

I could in theory understand a two tier system, but only if it was organized along the lines of an off topics forum v. everything else. Why in the world would you put the "best" topics in a forum the vast majority of the community can't participate in (advanced)?  

The myriad of sub-forums add un-needed levels of complication, and TMD would be better served with more central areas which could effectively increase traffic. If You want Adept blogs, fine, throw them in the advanced forum in addition to the "off limits" topics.

If you want to be a resource, maybe create a new player resource center instead of an "improvement" forum. Instead of effectively demoting topics, why not make the improvement forum a place where people could post basic information about the format. Simple things like card pools, links to data bases, links to primers, rules changes, updates to the format, entry level articles, whatever.

If you want to organize information better, have a "sticky section" that sits at the top of every forum. Its the same selection of threads, it just hovers at the top of every sub-forum. You could organize to your hearts content. You could have a thread that just puts up article links from SCG, and then a link to the appropriate thread on TMD. You could put sit rules, and a link to the advanced forum. You could have the introduce yourself thread., etc.

I dunno, the organization of this website had become really haphazard over time. Really, crap like EHD needs its own entire forum? Look, I get it, there are a few people out there who enjoy EDH that also play type I, but you guys just created another forum thats going to be populated by 5 people and add to the ghost town effect. 

[Matt]

If the primary goal of TMD should be to promote the format (as most people seem to think), does that change the way it should be structured?

Define "promote". Does this mean announcing tournaments? Hosting them? Hacking wizards.com's frontpage to read "VINTAGE RULES, STANDARD SUXX0R"? This is a worthless discussion without a well-defined "promote".

[Killane]

I think that TMD should promote vintage, and offer players something to Strive for. being a Vintage Adept on these boards is a laudable acchievement, and shoudl be something that a good-great vintage player strives to acchieve- to be a leading pundit in the format.

TMD should, I think, ultimately aim to help shape vintage as a whole- a gathering of the top experts in the field could have invaluable things to say about tournament structure, proxy issues, the B&R list, etc.... and help grow the format in as healthy a manner as possible, thus allowign it to promote the foramt in the best way possible, increasing player bases which allows for better prize pools and competition, etc. etc etc.....

Being a member here (Full member soemwhat but especially adept) should be something of a status symbol. If you can claim membership, it should say something about you as a magic player - ie- I'm not a newb, I know what I'm doing to at least a certain extent, and if I'm on a learnign curve it's because I put myself there, not becuase I just don;t know any better.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

My disappearance aside....I feel like TMD went from the vintage "gym" where you trained and got better in skills and deck choice/tuning to a vintage lounge where the topics of conversation are more social and you plan for events. Back in the day the discussion/improvement/testing forums were the meat and potatoes and the community/results/humor forum came as a bonus on the side...but now its vice versa. I'm not saying its a bad thing but people have to understand years of player base changes, restrictions/unrestrictions, and seperate team forums have just changed how TMD plays its role in the community.

[Joblin Velder]

If the primary goal of TMD should be to promote the format (as most people seem to think), does that change the way it should be structured?

Yes.

Having an advanced, open, and improvement forum only serves to highlight and reinforce the notion of elitism that we as a community desperately try and distance ourselves from. It's ridiculous that on a board with as little traffic as this, people with an underdeveloped understanding of the format get shunted into the backwater of an already underpopulated knowledge pool.

I could in theory understand a two tier system, but only if it was organized along the lines of an off topics forum v. everything else. Why in the world would you put the "best" topics in a forum the vast majority of the community can't participate in (advanced)? 

The myriad of sub-forums add un-needed levels of complication, and TMD would be better served with more central areas which could effectively increase traffic. If You want Adept blogs, fine, throw them in the advanced forum in addition to the "off limits" topics.

If you want to be a resource, maybe create a new player resource center instead of an "improvement" forum. Instead of effectively demoting topics, why not make the improvement forum a place where people could post basic information about the format. Simple things like card pools, links to data bases, links to primers, rules changes, updates to the format, entry level articles, whatever.

If you want to organize information better, have a "sticky section" that sits at the top of every forum. Its the same selection of threads, it just hovers at the top of every sub-forum. You could organize to your hearts content. You could have a thread that just puts up article links from SCG, and then a link to the appropriate thread on TMD. You could put sit rules, and a link to the advanced forum. You could have the introduce yourself thread., etc.

I dunno, the organization of this website had become really haphazard over time. Really, crap like EHD needs its own entire forum? Look, I get it, there are a few people out there who enjoy EDH that also play type I, but you guys just created another forum thats going to be populated by 5 people and add to the ghost town effect. 

This entire post summarizes exactly how I feel about the problems TMD has and the steps that I feel would make the forum, and by extension the format, better. I don't have anything to add to the already eloquent post, but I wanted those with the ability to change things to know others shared his feelings.

[Demonic Attorney]

So I guess I should add my thoughts here, so everyone knows where things stand.

The most important thing for me to make clear is that my job involves forging a middle ground from exactly opposite views.  For every complaint in this thread from nataz and Joblin Velder about elitism and exclusionary policies, I hear another grievance in the #irc channel about how talented players don't derive enough benefit from TMD and that they would prefer to associate among themselves exclusively, in an environment with more limitations placed on access to the site for Basic Users, not less.

In a situation like this, not everyone is going to be happy.  For everyone who wants fewer boards so TMD seems more active, there's someone else who wants more, so it looks better-organized.  For everyone who wants looser moderation to alleviate complaints about "Nazi modding," there's someone else who wants stricter moderation to preserve TMD's standards for posting.

This was my problem with this thread from its inception.  With so many divergent views on what the site should be, and so many different demands from users about what people want the site to be, there is no way we're going to get a meaningful consensus on the "goal" of TMD.  Even if we could get that consensus, in no way does that translate into one clear way to implement changes to the site to achieve that hypothetical unitary goal; I'm positive there'd be just as much disagreement about how to attain the singular overriding "goal" of TMD, assuming one could be agreed upon, as there is now about what TMD's "goal" should be.

And it's not because the substance of everyone's requests is unreasonable.  In fact, precisely the opposite.  This dilemma can't be resolved because all these competing visions have merit.  Of course TMD should be welcoming to new users as a staging ground for their entry into Vintage; that's what keeps this site in use and our format viable.  Of course having a place for the talented players to exchange ideas with each other is useful-- otherwise they lose the benefit of coming to TMD.  Of course we don't want to have a moderation policy in place that scares people into not participating, but at the same time, it's equally clear we don't want a standardless free-for-all with no rules because there are already other sites to provide that environment.

Not everyone is going to get their way.  No, maybe a better way to put it--  nobody is going to get their way.  I'm not going to put TMD into lockdown mode where anyone who hasn't established his "rep" as an elite player is confined to the Improvement Forum.  I'm not going to join in the struggle of the Vintage proletariat and dismantle the usergroup and subforum hierarchy.  I'm not going to implement a "scorched earth" moderation policy and warn everyone who runs even the slightest bit afoul of the site rules, and I'm also not going to dispense with TMD's standards for writing. 

This is what I don't understand, and my reciprocal feedback to everyone who's driven these discussions.  What is so intolerably odious about this forum, as it exists now, that you refuse to participate at all?  The Advanced Vintage Forum provides an opportunity for the "elite" players to talk amongst themselves if they really find interacting with Basic Users that distasteful.  The Open/Improvement Forums get the lion's share of the strategy-related traffic, so Basic Users aren't really deprived of an opportunity to participate.  Why is compromise so damaging to what you want to get out of TMD?  Why do you need TMD to be exactly how you want it to be[/i], with no dilution whatsoever, in order to post? 

[nataz]

Hey, question was asked and I answered. I really don't have a dog in this fight. With grad school, a job search, and moving to Texas, I don't have a lot of time play magic anymore.

If you want this

If the primary goal of TMD should be to promote the format (as most people seem to think), does that change the way it should be structured?

I suggest what I outlined in my post.

It has nothing to do about the mod staff, or me posting, or venting, it was a design and implementation suggestion/strategy. Quite frankly, TMD serves every purpose I need right now, but I'm not trying to promote the format, bring in new players, or really even play type I much anymore. 5 years ago, sure, I was doing all of those things, and so was TMD, but I like to think both me and the boards have mellowed with age.

My post was simply a perspective from someone who has been here from (almost) the inception of TMD. I count Steve(Zherbus) as one of the primary people for getting me into the format (right behind Oscar Tan), and as a driving factor in keeping type I alive post BD. He was the founder of TMD, and yet I suspect half of the active users don't even know who he was. After all, he sold TMD, moved on with his life, and from what I understood was happy with the decision.

Much like Steve, we all reach a point where we have to make that decision, and just hope that others will carry on the torch. You can't argue that these boards, and their pupose hasn't changed over time, the real question is are we okay with that change? For that reason alone I think this was a worthwhile thread.

[Diakonov]

I have to agree with nataz on the topic of organization.

I think it wouldn't be unwise to take a page from The Source's book.  They seem to be thriving, after all.  Their main system is:

I. Rules

II. Format Development

A. Decks to Beat Forum
B. Established Decks Forum
C. New and Developmental Decks Forum
D. Format and Article Discussion

III. Other Legacy Discussion

A. Tournament Announcements and Results
B. Tournament Reports
C. Community Board
D. Card Interactions and Rulings


It's simple, organized, and distinctly avoids any sort of elitism.  In particular, "New and Developmental Decks Forum" sounds a lot friendlier to new players than "Improvement Forum."  I'm not saying that our boards should look identical to theirs, but their system might at least be worth looking at.

Since we're on the topic, I'd also like to add that I'd always thought it would be nice to include a "Regional Community" forum that is broken into subcategories such as New England, Mid-Eastern, Southwest, etc. in order to allow people who live in those areas to develop more of a feeling of having a local Vintage community.  Teams have their own boards, but it would be nice to have a place where all people who play in a certain area can communicate, trash-talk, coordinate events, and so on.

[LotusHead]

One thing I wish TMD had was a forum of MWS NETDECKS.

Lists in MWS format that anyone could copy and paste into MWS (it's always kind of awkward, even with formatted decks, but sometimes the tourney report lists are "in the wrong format" or something, and we have to type them up 75 at a time.

Sure, I do it, but I sure appreciate decks in MWS format. 


For example, my current build of River's Affinity (-4 sucky lands, +4 good lands)

// Lands
    1  City of Traitors
    2  Ancient Tomb
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Wasteland
    1  Tolarian Academy
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    2  Ghost Quarter
    2  Blinkmoth Nexus

// Creatures
    4  Myr Servitor
    4  Metalworker
    4  Myr Retriever
    4  Arcbound Ravager
    3  Triskelion

// Spells
    4  Thorn of Amethyst
    4  Skullclamp
    4  Tangle Wire
    3  Sword of Fire and Ice
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1  Duplicant
SB: 2  Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3  Jester's Cap
SB: 3  Sculpting Steel
SB: 2  Staff of Domination
SB: 2  Relic of Progenitus

[Anusien]

The most important thing for me to make clear is that my job involves forging a middle ground from exactly opposite views.  For every complaint in this thread from nataz and Joblin Velder about elitism and exclusionary policies, I hear another grievance in the #irc channel about how talented players don't derive enough benefit from TMD and that they would prefer to associate among themselves exclusively, in an environment with more limitations placed on access to the site for Basic Users, not less.

As the guy who was most recently making that argument the strongest, that was exactly the point of this thread.  To see if the majority of people felt like that was a worthwhile endeavor.  Had the poll results strongly indicated that "Allow me to discuss ideas with other players I respect" and "Produce the best Vintage decks/tech" were the #1 goals, that might be a direction to move forward in.  But the results suggest that TMD should be flatter, not more structured.

[honestabe]

I feel that there shouldn't be a set list of Goals.  I feel that the goal should be changing, depending on what vintage needs it to be.  Right now, with vintage in a recession, The Mana Drain should be trying to promote vintage, and attract and welcome new players, as well as try to attract players who no longer play vintage.

Hopefully, the new DCI restrictions/unrestrictions will be another factor to the popularity, and it will return to the glory days.  When this happens, I feel The Mana Drian should shift its goals from trying to attract players, to perfecting decks and ideas.

Basically, I feel it should be what vintage needs it to be.  Think of it as vintage's Ace in the hole.  Something the community can really depend on.




Just my 2 cents

[Shean]

The most important thing for me to make clear is that my job involves forging a middle ground from exactly opposite views.  For every complaint in this thread from nataz and Joblin Velder about elitism and exclusionary policies, I hear another grievance in the #irc channel about how talented players don't derive enough benefit from TMD and that they would prefer to associate among themselves exclusively, in an environment with more limitations placed on access to the site for Basic Users, not less.

As the guy who was most recently making that argument the strongest, that was exactly the point of this thread.  To see if the majority of people felt like that was a worthwhile endeavor.  Had the poll results strongly indicated that "Allow me to discuss ideas with other players I respect" and "Produce the best Vintage decks/tech" were the #1 goals, that might be a direction to move forward in.  But the results suggest that TMD should be flatter, not more structured.

From looking at the results:

Promote the format Vintage     - 52 (33.1%)
Allow me to discuss ideas with other players I respect     - 39 (24.8%)
Produce the best Vintage decks/tech     - 34 (21.7%)

In my opinion, everyone will vote for "Promote the format Vintage."  (I didn't even notice the typo in the poll until I posted this )  We all know that Vintage is a format that isn't going to perpetuate itself and we must all try to keep it going.  However, I think that counting this vote as the most relevant is a cop-out.  Everyone should vote for this, since if we didn't try to promote the format, we would most likely see the format die.

I interpret the most relevant results to be, "Allow me to discuss ideas with other players I respect" and "Produce the best Vintage decks/tech."

Of course team forums are always going to "Produce the best Vintage decks/tech" before TMD does, but people who aren't on a team, such as myself, simply have to work with the tools available to us.  In this case, TMD is the closest we will get to the "most current best decks/tech" until we have a team.

[Norm4eva]

I certainly wouldn't know Thing One about Type One if it weren't for TMD.  I don't even live in an area where it's popular.  The closest thing I have right now to a regular Eternal tournament is fucking weekly Legacy Creature Feature at the locally owned Hobbytown.  Still, for the handful of Eternal tourneys that come my way, and with no group to test with, the theoretical knowledge I picked up around here made me a contender enough to be 5th in state.

So, for my money, that's what I get out of this.  Don't rightly know if that falls under "promotion" or "discussion of tech" or whatever.

[dicemanx]

What is the purpose behind this poll if you don`t mind me asking? Are you simply curious, or do you wish to follow it up with certain proposals to alter the site in some way to match what you feel the purpose of the site should be?