U/R Landstill still viable?

[TheJesus]

Well, after a hiatus of 2 years from the vintage scene, I came back playing a rogue deck. Here is the tournament report:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39416.0

I was impressed overall with the deck's performance in this "fast" environment. I only decided on the deck the night before when I found out that most of the cards had escaped Ebay two years ago. I choose to run Mattiuzzo's decklist from GenCon 07 as it was proven and very consistent. I only changed a few cards in the sideboard for my expected metagame.

LAND (25)
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Faerie Conclave
2 Island
2 Steam Vents
4 Volcanic Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
ARTIFACTS (7)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Null Rod
SPELLS (24)
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Misdirection
4 Stifle
1 Time Walk
4 Fire/Ice
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Standstill

SB
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Rack and Ruin

The detailed tournament report is in the comments on the link above, but I'll give some impressions here. Against the Counter/Combo decks I won ever counter war and felt like I was controlling the game from my second turn on. The Misdirections were huge stealing my opponents Ancestral Recall more than I cast it myself and winning the counter wars. The current Fish decks don't run man-lands and are 3 colors which makes fighting them much easier. Meddling Mage is out of style, but Gaddock Teeg can blank 7 spells in the deck. Stax decks are not using the 9-sphere game plan, making that fight easier too. I didn't see Dredge, but it probably would have been hated out of the top 8 which was really my only game plan (I do have a possible SB strategy later on in the post).

There were some problems. I felt very vulnerable on my turn one. Stifle was big when I had it, but that is really all you have. I dropped a match to an opponent completing a Vault/Key on his turn 2 via Tolarian, Tinker, and FOW; then, next game, getting Painter/Grindstone after my turn 2 not finding a blue source. Well that happens. You can get blown out and I believe proper mulliganning would have got me to game 3.

Before I go on to discuss improving and tweaking the deck, please check out the link here:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35289.0

Mattiuzzo/Shockwave provides precious insight into the design and game plan of the deck.

The deck performed just fine, but there is an interesting addition in the new 1cc counter, Spell Pierce. Unfortunately it isn't a hard counter which is usually a problem for Landstill. It can become irrelevant mid to late game which means it doesn't make the cut. For instance, compare Spell Snare to Spell Pierce:
Spell Snare                                     Spell Pierce
1cc counter                                    1cc counter
2cc spells                                       non-creature
hard counter                                  opponent can pay 2

Both seem limited, but far better that Abjure, Force Spike, Nix, or the other type-specific counters. Both give you an option on turn 1. The current crop of Combo/Control decks love Spell Pierce because the long game doesn't matter as much. These decks are trying to resolve game-winning spells during mid-game while Landstill is trying to stop the opponent from doing anything relevant until well into late-game.

Testing has shown that Spell Snare is good in the sideboard (I swapped them for some REB's). It comes in against Fish and Drain decks where it is always good. Spell Pierce is a main deck card because it always has the same limitations. It won't be better in some matchups and actually worse against creature decks. But, it gives Landstill a boost in the early game against fast decks. Countering a turn 1 Tinker, draw spell, tutor, or artifact is huge. So, this is what I'm testing right now:

    1 Library of Alexandria
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Wasteland
    1 Polluted Delta
    2 Flooded Strand
    1 Scalding Tarn
    2 Island
    4 Volcanic Island
    3 Faerie Conclave
    4 Mishra's Factory
    1 Steam Vents
    
    4 Force of Will
    4 Mana Drain
    2 Spell Pierce
    3 Misdirection
    3 Stifle
    4 Standstill
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    4 Null Rod
    4 Fire/Ice
    1 Time Walk
    3 Chain of Vapor
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
SB:    
2 Threads of Disloyalty
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Pyroclasm
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds

The sideboard looks crazy, but I trying to see if you can beat Dredge with cards that matter.  Ingot Chewer is good against Stax off a Drain, but it doesn't get you out of locks like Rack and Ruin does. The second Crucible wins the mana denial game. You lose all the REB's against drain decks, but I always have trouble finding room for the Chalices I wanted and the REB's. So, the interesting thing is Dredge.  So you SB like this on the play:

-1 Crucible             +4 Ingot Chewer
-4 Mana Drain         +4 Pyroclasm
-4 Null Rod            +4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Spell Pierce

The theory is that you have Ingot Chewer invoked to remove bridges, Pyroclasm for tokens, and Chalice for the 1cc spells they tend to run. You want to keep Misdirection for their Dread Return and Cabal Therapies. Force of Will is free of course and the best counter you can get as the game will be over quickly. The game plan is to deck your opponent via Standstill and/or Ancestral Recall. I don't know if this actually gives you a chance, but considering that game 1 is about 90/10, you might be able to get back toward 50/50 after sideboarding without doing something like 4x Leyline of Singularity and 4x Ravenous Trap. Perhaps we can keep the the sideboard versatile against the field and still get some game against Dredge.

What do you guys think about the following 4cc cards:

Cryptic Command
1UUU
Instant
Choose two — Counter target spell; or return target permanent to its owner's hand; or tap all creatures your opponents control; or draw a card.

Glen Elendra Archmage
3U
2/2 Flying
U, Sacrifice Glen Elendra Archmage: Counter target noncreature spell.
Persist

[Shean]

There were some problems. I felt very vulnerable on my turn one. Stifle was big when I had it, but that is really all you have.

Based upon this, I think 4x Spell Pierce is the right number.  It may be a dead card later in the game, but it is a blue card that pitches to FoW.  Also, as you pointed out, you have to survive turns 1-3.  If you can effectively slow your opponent down through these turns, you probably win the game.  For these reasons, I feel that Spell Pierce is far too valuable to run less than 4.  I can't really think of a time that you wouldn't want one in your opening hand.

I could be wrong, but against creature decks, I don't feel that them resolving one or two creatures on the first 2 turns are that big of a deal.  You run 7 manlands who can trade with them, if necessary, and 4x Fire/Ice.

Glen Elendra Archmage
3U
2/2 Flying
U, Sacrifice Glen Elendra Archmage: Counter target noncreature spell.
Persist

This card is extremely strong.  I'd imagine that dropping this dude the turn after your opponent is forced to pop a Standstill would mean GG almost every time.  It's also a good outlet for Mana Drain mana.

[Bera]

A friend ran an archmage in his list, he said it was gg whenever it resolved but resolving it was hard.

[waikiki]

Im pretty new to the format and this sunday I will be having my first vintage tournament. I was actually thinking of brining landstill

This is what I had in mind:

// Lands
    1  Library of Alexandria
    4  Volcanic Island
    3  Island
    1  Mishra's Factory (4)
    1  Mishra's Factory (1)
    1  Mishra's Factory (3)
    1  Mishra's Factory (2)
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Scalding Tarn
    2  Faerie Conclave
    1  Steam Vents

// Spells
    4  Fire/Ice
    4  Force of Will
    1  Time Walk
    1  Brainstorm
    2  Repeal
    3  Spell Pierce
    4  Mana Drain
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    3  Null Rod
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Standstill
    1  Crucible of Worlds
    3  Cunning Wish
    4  Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1  Rack and Ruin
SB: 1  Ravenous Trap
SB: 1  Misdirection
SB: 2  Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2  Sower of Temptation
SB: 1  Volcanic Fallout
SB: 1  Firespout

I was thinking about trying out the cunning wishes But im not sure about it. Maybe they are too slow. Any suggestions for my list mb & sb?

[God_Campbell]

Trust me, you will definatley find the wishes to slow,  and that you should nto be trying to reinvent the wheel with Rich's list...
As someone who has the pleasure of playing in the landstill capital of the world, not much as changed since the 2007 list..

But one little innovation that has been seeing play, is 1-2 Vendillion clique, which is a good surprise and also helps get into the red zone.

[MaxxMatt]

## Landstill vs. Dredge

Your plan fails to apply to Dredge critters because it has sorcery speed while they can be able to attack & win with them the same turn they enter the battlefield. their winning process can be axed twice or more but it is still efficient enough to win.
On the other hand, Leyline of Singularity will clean the board as soon as their threats comes in multiples. While you can handle a couple of critters, you can't be sure to survive to a pletora of zombies or ichorids or fatties. Leyline will prevent their army to grow enough to be lethal.
Landstill is the best equipped deck to protect his own permanents from being removed from game by opponents hate, so you will fear discards and disenchants less than other control decks

## Spell Pierce is almost an hardcounter...

...if you are managing Landstill resources properly.
Null Rods will axe opponents artifact mana as much as Wastelands will deal with opponents duals. Stifles should kill their fetchlands and CoW recurr Strips, too. In the end, opponents are going to play with a few mana fonts on board. They are going to use those few mana fonts to resolve spells, without being usually able to pay for SPierce.

As much as the denial plan will go on, SPierce can be considered the "cheaper" among Landstill's hardcounterspells.


## Landstill vs CotV@1
Plenty of key cards listed in your deck will be freezed by a quick cotv@1.
Stifles, Pierces, Chains, ARecall, SSnare, Blasts... while it seems to you they are redundant cards without key strategical role, a single CotV@1 can shut half of your deck down during CRUCIAL first or second turn without being able to deal with them at all. Staks can blindly put CotV@1 first and then lock and logorate you down until CotV@2 will resolve.

I fear more a CotV@1 against Landstill rather than a quick CotV@2
1cc spells will help protect you against opponents' first turn play
Rebs are key post side cards
Chains can't be used with cotv@1 in play, avoiding you to deal with any permanents till game end
Stifle can be used to neutralize CotV@2 triggers and resolve a 2cc spell, too

I will build maindeck in a way similar to yours
Indeed, sideboard will be this one

4 Leyline of Singularity
3 Rack & Ruin
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Echoing Truth
2 Spell Pierce / Red Elemental Blast

You can deal with almost anything thrown into the battlefield being them artifacts, enchantments, critters or fatties.
I put a lot of an effort over additional grave/board control rather than handcontrol/drawpower

26/27 mana
4/5 misd/pierce
4 standstill
4 drain
4 stifle
4 fow
4 rod
4 f/i
3/4 bouncers
1/2 cow
1 recall
1 walk

with this skeleton, my proposed sideboard will cover control, combo, artifact & dredge really well.
aggro control will be dealt with etruth, rebs, mandlands and hard counters.
nothing more, but I suppose it is enough


Enjoy,
MAxxMAtt

[waikiki]

Thats an interesting sideboard! Don't you think you'll be needing some sort of creaturesteal or sweeper in the sideboard to adress the fish kind of decks?

[sean1i0]

This looks really awesome!  I love Landstill decks (the first "Eternal" deck I played was Keeper, so that style of deck will always have a special place in my heart), so this is really exciting to me to have new discussion going on about it.  I do have a few comments though.

1) First off, I agree with the sentiments being expressed about Spell Pierce:  I think that it's inclusion is probably a very important one.  Turn one is huge.  No, not as much in this format as in those of years past, but this is still Vintage and important plays still occur as early as the first turn.

2) I like the inclusion of Misdirections, but do you think that some number of those slots could/should be switched to Mindbreak Traps a la The Deck?  Mind you that I haven't played with Vintage Landstill in years, so these suggestions are, as of yet, all from strictly a theoretical point of view.

3) I agree with Maxx that you have to have some way to deal with CotV@1.  What about some number of echoing truths over Chain of Vapor?  I have always loved Echoing Truth to be honest and used to automatically include it as at least a 1-of in any Vintage deck that had blue as a catch all. 

4)  I have some concerns about the manabase.  Is 3 comes-into-play-tapped lands (Faerie Conclaves) too much?  This is where testing would be the only thing that could tell us the right answer, but at first glance it seems like it could be.  I almost think that a configuration that could let you run 2ish Mutavaults in addition to the Factories would be superior, but if that is too many colorless lands (as it very well probably is), then I would think that 1 or *maybe* 2 Faerie Conclaves would be the maximum that you would want.  Thoughts?  Also, since this deck is U/R, I think there is no question that the manabase should start out like this:

4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
X Island
Y Mountains

And *then* I think that you can go to the Steam Vents and the other fetchlands.  I think there should be at least one or two Mountains.  The Zendikar fetchlands give us the ability to create mana stability in the eternal formats like never before by being able to compliment virtually any 2 or 3 color deck with a significant amount of basics and unless we find ourselves in an environment where Stax and other mana denial strategies virtually disappear, then we would be wise to take advantage of it.  Mana stability will, I believe, lead to far more victories than having one or two extra utility lands.  This is especially true since most of the great tools against Stax are in Red.

That's it for now.  I'll definitely keep up with this and try to test it out some.  Thanks for bringing up such an amazing blast from the past!

[TheJesus]

I apoligize that I still don't have the tournament report up. I lost to some misplays so it's not that relevant or exciting. I promise I'll get it up by Saturday morning.
EDIT: I couldn't find my notes. I won't be able to give the detailed report.

...I think 4x Spell Pierce is the right number.  It may be a dead card later in the game, but it is a blue card that pitches to FoW.  Also, as you pointed out, you have to survive turns 1-3.  If you can effectively slow your opponent down through these turns, you probably win the game.  For these reasons, I feel that Spell Pierce is far too valuable to run less than 4.  I can't really think of a time that you wouldn't want one in your opening hand.

It doesn't stop creature spells. I can't imagine running 4 of this with Dark Confidant draw engines all over the place. Also, where do I find room for 4 of them (or maybe 2 more from my testing list)? Losing the Misdirections would be wrong. Maybe go down to 2 bounce spells or 2 Misdirections and 3 Fire/Ice for the other 2. You mana denial is not immediate like a Stax deck where you have Chalice @ 0 and Null Rod turn 1. Tapping out for a Null Rod on turn 2 is pretty dangerous even with a FOW. Ideally you want to drop the Null Rod off Drain mana around turn 3 where you have a Waste effect and some mana open.

But one little innovation that has been seeing play, is 1-2 Vendillion clique, which is a good surprise and also helps get into the red zone.

He doesn't counter, bounce, or lock the opponent. Main deck he would cycle my extra Nullrod I guess. If you can find room for 1 or even 2 of these guys, wouldn't you rather just have a counter spell? Maybe you could SB him for fishes, but don't cut the Threads.

@waikiki
I agree with God_Cambell with wishes being too slow. Even wishing up a Foil (?) as a free counter is 3 mana. Getting a Leak is 5, etc. You are not playing a silver bullet deck.  You're also going to wish Repeal was Chain of Vapor. You want it to be cheap. You really don't have a Mono Blue Control mana base where you will drop a land every turn. Compare bouncing a Smokestacks EOT with Chain or Repeal. I've also ran 1 each of Chain, Echoing Truth, and Wipe Away to avoid Chalice locking me out. I found that Split Second is not really needed and would rather get a Rushing River from the board for the same mana cost. If you really want to change up from the 3-4 Chains then try 1 Echoing Truth as it's almost as good while giving you a bit more game against tokens and creatures. Sower is going to be too slow. Threads of Disloyalty gets all of the 2cc creatures in Fish. It just wins you the game. You might think Sower can steal a DSC, but most of the huge creatures are Titan, Inkwell, or Iona. Sower won't do anything to these decks and you were probably better boarding the REBs to stop the Tinker anyway.

## Landstill vs CotV@1
Plenty of key cards listed in your deck will be freezed by a quick cotv@1.
Stifles, Pierces, Chains, ARecall, SSnare, Blasts... while it seems to you they are redundant cards without key strategical role, a single CotV@1 can shut half of your deck down during CRUCIAL first or second turn without being able to deal with them at all. Staks can blindly put CotV@1 first and then lock and logorate you down until CotV@2 will resolve.

I'd like to check with some more accomplished Stax players, but this seems highly unlikely. I would never cast a CotV at 1 blind unless I already had a Welder and Chalice @ 0 down or thought/knew I was playing against Dark Ritual based deck. In addition, this is a very risky play as I could lock myself out of Welder to a STP in response or other removal spell.  On the play, Chalice @ 0 is much stronger as you want to keep opponent's Moxes in hand and mana screw them. On the play, Chalice @ 2 is much stronger as it stops many creatures and Drains. Chalice @ 1 does happen, but I wouldn't care much in Landstill. Chalice at 2 is what I'm more worried about. Actually, a resolved Smokestacks is probably the toughest early play. I mean, I don't care much about losing access to the 1cc spells, as Drain, FOW, Nullrod, Standstill, and to a lesser extent Fire/Ice are what wins me the game. Out of the SB you get Rack and Ruin or Ingot Chewer which makes this a non-issue. Against any other deck they just locked themselves out of Mystical, Vampric, A. Recall, Ponder, Brainstorm, REB's, and other possible cards. Seems really good for us.

Also check this out from Shockwave:

Quote from: Stormanimagus on February 09, 2008, 01:21:11 AM

True, but are we in agreement then that you'll be setting Chalice on 0 more often than Chalice on 1 (That already doesn't make sense to me as we run Null Rod to serve that purpose and I thought Chalice was in there to be set at 1 for GAT, TOG, and Combo)? Doesn't Null Rod accomplish the same thing? I mean, it's a difference of 1 turn if you hit your land drops but it stops their power for the rest of the game while also hosing the following cards that Chalice @ 0 does not:

No, we're not in agreement that Chalice gets set to 0 or 1. It gets set to whatever it needs to be set at to win a match. Against any deck that runs full power, you should have both Null Rod and Chalice in your arsenal post board. Null Rod does not accomplish that same thing as Chalice on Turn 1 very frequently, and often that is the difference between winning and losing a match. One turn makes a huge difference. Setting Cotv = 1 can be a very strong play against a lot of decks. It doesn't matter that it shuts off a lot of your spells. You don't need to resolve anything to win the match. Your opponent does.

Your [sideboard] plan fails to apply to Dredge critters because it has sorcery speed while they can be able to attack & win with them the same turn they enter the battlefield. their winning process can be axed twice or more but it is still efficient enough to win.

Dredge is looking for a turn 2 or 3 kill usually. This won't happen until after the turn they generate a mass of zombies or on the turn they successfully Dread Return the Zealot. I think it's irrelevant to discuss sorcery or instant spells as their hand destruction is so difficult to play around. Either you counter the Dread Return or you lose. An instant Pyroclasm won't stop the alternate cost of the spell as you don't have priority until it's on the stack. Ingot Chewer removes bridges from turn 1 on, while Pyroclasm manages their critters. I mean, this match up is currently an auto-loss. I don't see Leyline of Singularity winning this for us. Even packing 15 SB hate cards, I think Dredge would still be about 50:50 while you lose your SB matches against the rest of the field. If Leyline is good against any other deck than I might consider it. I would do the same for Relic of Progenitus or Tormond's Crypt, but they don't do much in other matchups.

EDIT:
@ sean1i0
I think I've already addressed points 1, 3, 4 but I'll let Feyd hit 4 again:

The real issue is not whether the land is a man-land or not.  The issue is whether it can produce colored mana.  Like haunted said, the fact that it doesn't produce colored mana hurts.  I personally think mutavault is the weakest man land.  It is not as good as mishra's factory seeing as it doesn't have the pump effect.  It does not produce colored mana like conclave.  It dies to all non-basic hate just like the rest of the man lands.  The only thing really going for it is that it comes into play untapped...but seeing as it doesn't produce blue/red anyway this ability is neglible.  Conclave will almost always be a better play.  Even if the mutavault comes into play untapped that doesn't mean it can attack this turn anyway.  Just like all the manlands you will have to wait a turn to attack with the vault.  Colored mana in a landstill build is usually at a premium what with all the strip mine/wastelands/factories you are running.  Conclave > mutavault in my opinion
   Here's the question:  Would you rather have 1 colorless mana open this turn or would you rather have blue mana open next turn?

Also, 7 man-lands means you have 2 more than they have (possible) waste effects. A smart opponent saves the Wastelands for you man-lands as that is your only win condition.

As for #2, you don't have any tutors, and, as I pointed out before, this is not a silver bullet deck. The card choices in The Deck work because their game plan is to answer any problem. We are trying to stop the opponent from doing anything relevant. I would never want to see Mindbreak Trap in my hand. Why not just counter that draw spell? I toyed with the idea of Extract as it's cheap and functions a lot like a counter spell, i.e. remove that Tinker, Yawg's Will, etc before you get a chance to cast it. You lose card advantage playing those spells which is what keeps it as a 3rd tier choice.

[sean1i0]

So, in your testing, has having 3 comes-into-play-tapped not been a significant factor?  I can definitely see your point about having 7 as the number of manlands though.  And, yes, I can also see the point about colored vs. colorless mana.  My main concern is definitely having 3 CIPT lands.

As far as playing Spell Pierce in an environment full of Dark Confidants, do you think that maybe having Fire/ice will be enough to deal with that threat?  Electrolyze is also an amazing card which is probably just too expensive to play.  It's a shame, too, since getting to deal the damage and drawing the card could be awesome.  Ultimately, though, as I said, 3 mana is probably just too much.

[scifiantihero]

I think that hands made bad by the CIPT nature of Conclave will not be improved by replacing that card with one of colorless mana sources 11-13.  Conclave hasn't been a problem for me.

So I tested this version yesterday and today against BUG fish for about two dozen games.  I think there was one game where he ever drew a card of confidant when it mattered, so I am not worried about dealing with them.  Tarmogoyf, on the other hand, was a huge problem, and the main contributor to my 60-70 percent loss ratio.

I ended up testing with the nullrods main for a bit, but we both had them so we had some dead draws.  I then replaced them with Lightning Bolts, as this was one of my old favorites (old as in before tarmogoyf!) which didn't seem to help out much, and my opponent probably got a lot more mileage out of the Duresses and Oxidizes he brought in.  I will have to test with more bounce.  Has that been strong enough to answer Goyfs, for others?  (I did often find myself top-decking the Force or Drain a turn or two after the green guy landed.)

I didn't test bringing in the Red Elemental Blasts yet, and I think that will help with my second big issue-- Stifle on Standstill.   That play hurt me a few times.

Spell Snare would obviously be an all star in this matchup, but-- as people have noted-- it's not as good in many others, so probably not worth slots.

Pyroclasm, while one of my favorite cards, seems quite bad to side in here.  Against noble fish, I'd want it more, though.  Is that what people have found as well?

Well, those are my thoughts/ findings!

[Shean]

I didn't test bringing in the Red Elemental Blasts yet, and I think that will help with my second big issue-- Stifle on Standstill.   That play hurt me a few times.

FYI, casting Stifle targeting the Standstill's ability doesn't do anything.  The Standstill trigger is on the stack, then Stifle is played targeting the trigger, but since Standstill is still in play, Standstill triggers again.

I'm sure this contributed a ton to your losses.

[scifiantihero]

That is indeed good to know, and would undoubtedly have saved several losses!

[MaxxMatt]

Thats an interesting sideboard! Don't you think you'll be needing some sort of creaturesteal or sweeper in the sideboard to adress the fish kind of decks?

thank you for your comment. IMHO, ETruth + ReB + Chains are enough to bounce back Fish critters long enough to set up, stabilize and start countering their own spells. Instead of putting boardsweepers on your battlefield enabling their own removals/bouncers, I preferred playing with more solutions between maindeck & sideboard. On a side note, you have 4 F/I: they are golden against Fish & Bant; anthing greater than */2 can be bounced back and then countered.

You can clean their own mana base with Wastelands recursion while they can't. It will be an added bonus when your manlands are going to face their own ones.

2) I like the inclusion of Misdirections, but do you think that some number of those slots could/should be switched to Mindbreak Traps a la The Deck?  Mind you that I haven't played with Vintage Landstill in years, so these suggestions are, as of yet, all from strictly a theoretical point of view.

MBreakT is powerful. Thinking about its addition ( between main & side ), I suppose 3 is the correct number against Control & Combo. It can cover the role ReB had had until now with the exception of being able to deal with blue permanents ( such as fish critters, opponents standstill, blue creatures and so on ). I have to test them in order to realize if URStandstill will benefit in a long term winning plan

Sideboard will become:

4 Leyline of Singularity
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Rack & Ruin
2 Echoing Truth

mana base issue

I didn't touch the mana base argument because, until now, I'm not fully satisfied by the conigurations I have in test.
the most promising one is:

4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Fairie Conclave
2 Mishra Factory
2 Mutavault
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Stripmine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire

It is resilient to PNeedles and Extirpate: you can fetch all your lands with 3x of different fetchlands.
No Mountains needed: mulling Mountains+colorless mana initial hand is deadly
I'm testing the addition of 1 Ghost Quarter instead of fourth Wasteland beacuse with multiple Stifles, it can force opponent to fetch for island, helping your stifles to make a good job killing their basic lands
I'm not a fan of FConclaves because of thousand of reasons, but because UrStandstill is going to play the long term game against any opponent, you need something to fly over their chumps and steal victories with those stupid fliers.

Dredge is looking for a turn 2 or 3 kill usually. This won't happen until after the turn they generate a mass of zombies or on the turn they successfully Dread Return the Zealot. I think it's irrelevant to discuss sorcery or instant spells as their hand destruction is so difficult to play around. Either you counter the Dread Return or you lose. An instant Pyroclasm won't stop the alternate cost of the spell as you don't have priority until it's on the stack. Ingot Chewer removes bridges from turn 1 on, while Pyroclasm manages their critters. I mean, this match up is currently an auto-loss. I don't see Leyline of Singularity winning this for us. Even packing 15 SB hate cards, I think Dredge would still be about 50:50 while you lose your SB matches against the rest of the field. If Leyline is good against any other deck than I might consider it. I would do the same for Relic of Progenitus or Tormond's Crypt, but they don't do much in other matchups.

This is how Leyline of Singularity interact with dredge.dec :
"if they can choose, leave on board only a single legendary creature of each type. no tokens can flood the board"

Protect your leyline and you will win. Plain and simple.

You are packing a shit load of counterspells in your deck. Aren't you going to lose from some crappy disenchant+discards cards combination, don't you?

Retrospectively speaking, LoSingularity can be good agains fish and weenies, too. They will be forced to leave only a single creature with the same name on board, slowing their winning plan a lot.

Chalice at 2 is what I'm more worried about.

Sorry man, but I'm shocked by the lack of logic of your argument.

They play cotv@2. You are worried.
You play chain of vapor. You bounce it back.
Chalice problem solved
Go on and continue the game

They play cotv@1. You are not worried.
You draw into your chain of vapor. Oh, useless.
Chalice ( PLUS any other nasty permanent on board ) problem unsolvable with your current deck configuration excluding countering almost anything, which is impossible in a long term game.
Game over

Chain, in your deck, is THE answer for almost anything opponents can resolve.
With a resolved CotV@2 in play before cotv@1, they can't outplay and lock you down anymore.
Their own cotv@1 will have converted mana cost 2. their own first cotv@2 will block the second cotv@1 from being resolved.
You have an ever ready to be used chain of vapor to get rid of their permanents when you need to.

The only way to slow you down with chalices quickly and correctly is to resolve 2 chalices: first @1 and secondarily @2. between them, they might resolve spheres to utterly slow you down. Welders, against a deck full of F/I is the weakest of their own resources.

I ended up testing with the nullrods main for a bit, but we both had them so we had some dead draws.  I then replaced them with Lightning Bolts, as this was one of my old favorites (old as in before tarmogoyf!) which didn't seem to help out much, and my opponent probably got a lot more mileage out of the Duresses and Oxidizes he brought in.  I will have to test with more bounce.  Has that been strong enough to answer Goyfs, for others?  (I did often find myself top-decking the Force or Drain a turn or two after the green guy landed.)

Like any coral decks without any specific silver bullet or threats, I consider Rods untouchable.
You can't find any set of cards as strong as Rods: any top tier deck will fear them more than any other spells.
Bouncers can be good but if your problems are Goyfs, you are lacking of strategy and not of cards.
All proposed build are perfectly able to resolve the "goyf problem" with ease. No bolts allowed, here

Early game take damages or tap it out
Mid game bounce it back and then counter it
Late game, chump with manlands and win with fliers

Please, please, please, LET critters resolve and think to counter REAL threats. UrStandstill will win
I'm just emphasizing here, quick GOyfs CAN be a problems, especially in multiples, but I'm sure a better approach to the urstandstill game plan will help you more than different "creative" cards.


MAxxMAtt

[scifiantihero]

Like any coral decks without any specific silver bullet or threats, I consider Rods untouchable.
You can't find any set of cards as strong as Rods: any top tier deck will fear them more than any other spells.
Bouncers can be good but if your problems are Goyfs, you are lacking of strategy and not of cards.
All proposed build are perfectly able to resolve the "goyf problem" with ease. No bolts allowed, here

Early game take damages or tap it out
Mid game bounce it back and then counter it
Late game, chump with manlands and win with fliers

Please, please, please, LET critters resolve and think to counter REAL threats. UrStandstill will win
I'm just emphasizing here, quick GOyfs CAN be a problems, especially in multiples, but I'm sure a better approach to the urstandstill game plan will help you more than different "creative" cards.
MAxxMAtt

I didn't mean to imply Rods would be replaced in the deck, just that we went on to test post-board games, and I was experimenting with sideboard choices.

Perhaps the years of any kind of aggro deck being a bye for U/R landstill lulled me into complacency.

[TheJesus]

I'm interested to see how Mindbreak Trap works out for you. I can see it working a lot like Misdirection but I don't know if it should really replace it. Let us know how testing goes.

The reason why Chalice @ 2 scares me the most is because it stops Null Rod, Drain, Standstill, and Fire/Ice. Those spells are the bulk of Landstill's game plan. I'm not trying to sound argumentative, but I'll ask anyway. Isn't that somewhat obvious? Now, on to more productive things. Almost immediately after my post, I played against a MUD Stax deck that led Chalice @ 1. It made my 2x Spell Pierce, Stifle, Chain hand look pretty bad. He got a Stax in play next turn, but I drained the Tangle Wire and dropped 2 Null Rods. Drained his Crucible and played my own. It wasn't too long before the Chalice was sacced and my Stifle sacced his board. He did the same play game 3, but Ingot Chewer (which I wished was Rack and Ruin) and Drains went the distance. So, in that particular deck without Welders it could have been a good play, but Chalice on 2 would have been better. I believe he was running 9 sphere so he didn't want to stop his own spells while Chalice @ 1 only stops some of his artifact mana.

After testing 2, 3, and 4 Spell Pierce I decided to go with 3, cutting a Misdirection. Combo Oath is much tougher than I thought but winnable. The toughest deck is Mean Deck beats. A typical deck list can be found on the link in the first post played by Dave into the top 8. The problem is that they run 20+ creatures--many more than a typical fish deck. Chalice @ 2 is a potent weapon, but they will usually bring in extra artifact removal so you can't count on it. Threads on Tarmogoyf is still the game plan, but they tend to swarm you much more. This deck makes me want Spell Snare more as a 1cc counter.

I'm still waiting to find a dredge play for 10 or so SB games, so I can't really comment on that.

Cryptic Command should have been good as you can replace a bounce spell with a counter spell. I wasn't ever happy to see it early and it was unimpressive late. You almost never get the bounce and counter mode. Usually it's one or the other with a draw.

I had trouble casting Glen Elendra many games. A flying creature that will counter 2 spells is great. I wasn't really happy seeing her in my opening hand, I still feel like she might be a perfect fit for this deck. Maybe out of the sideboard against Oath...

[MaxxMatt]

I'm interested to see how Mindbreak Trap works out for you. I can see it working a lot like Misdirection but I don't know if it should really replace it. Let us know how testing goes.

It is difficult to weight, at now.
This spell completely annihilate both combo and control.combo because of their abuse of storm. It works: in test it worked really well but I'm suspicous about the adapting speed towards it. Opponents will be aware of Mindbreak Trap playable possibly in every deck thanks to its alternative casting cost.
Who will soon try to combo you out without checking your hand with Duress? Which opponents will you surprise with MBTrap for a long time? Two weeks? A couple of tournaments? As soon as opponents will see it played, I'm sure about MBTrap being hated out by Duress, Counterspells and Thoughtsize.

At now, it is surprisingly good to couple or to be the substitute of Misdirection, even in this redundant deck.

The reason why Chalice @ 2 scares me the most is because it stops Null Rod, Drain, Standstill, and Fire/Ice. Those spells are the bulk of Landstill's game plan. I'm not trying to sound argumentative, but I'll ask anyway. Isn't that somewhat obvious? Now, on to more productive things. Almost immediately after my post, I played against a MUD Stax deck that led Chalice @ 1. It made my 2x Spell Pierce, Stifle, Chain hand look pretty bad. He got a Stax in play next turn, but I drained the Tangle Wire and dropped 2 Null Rods. Drained his Crucible and played my own. It wasn't too long before the Chalice was sacced and my Stifle sacced his board. He did the same play game 3, but Ingot Chewer (which I wished was Rack and Ruin) and Drains went the distance. So, in that particular deck without Welders it could have been a good play, but Chalice on 2 would have been better. I believe he was running 9 sphere so he didn't want to stop his own spells while Chalice @ 1 only stops some of his artifact mana.

Thanks for the rebuttal against my argument: it is needed to continue positively debating about a crucial and frequent game situation.
Think about your examples. Opponents did nothing not because their plan failed because they resolve CotV@1 instead of CotV@2. They simply failed on clunking you down with Spheres and denial before exposing himself blindly to your Drains. A MUD who let you abuse of Drains in multiples is unlucky or wrong about strategy. I would have preferred Spheres before Staks/Wires.

Look at the same game if they had opted for CotV@2 instead: you had SPierce, Stifle online. The first would have stopped Wire and the second the trigger of CotV@2, letting you Drain crucial spells, as well. Drained mana would have fueled your Rods & CoW, too. And I'm not going to add details about Chains of Vapor playable on MUD permanents, too.

Which are the differences of your game final results during this match after a CotV@1 or a CotV@2? In a sintetic way, I suppose there aren't difference at all.
Which are the differences of the possibility of interaction with board after CotV@2 instead of CotV@1? In a not exaustive way, I suppose there are plenty of them!!!

If he had locked you down with denial and spheres or drawn good spells, you would have lost the same game because CotV@ blocked your few interactive spells: Stifles and Chains.
During game 2 & 3, Chewers or R&R completely change this perspective. You have different solutions at different cc. You are safer than game1.

After testing 2, 3, and 4 Spell Pierce I decided to go with 3, cutting a Misdirection. Combo Oath is much tougher than I thought but winnable. The toughest deck is Mean Deck beats. A typical deck list can be found on the link in the first post played by Dave into the top 8. The problem is that they run 20+ creatures--many more than a typical fish deck. Chalice @ 2 is a potent weapon, but they will usually bring in extra artifact removal so you can't count on it. Threads on Tarmogoyf is still the game plan, but they tend to swarm you much more. This deck makes me want Spell Snare more as a 1cc counter.

In this deck without mana accelerants, SPierce plays the key role ManaLeak had MonoU but at a lower casting cost.
If perfectly fit both the denial plan both the casting cost curve, filling the gap during turn 1.
My current configuration is:

cc 0
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
cc 1
4 Spell Pierce
cc 2
4 Mana Drain

SPierce redundancy can transform it into an hardcounter even in middle game. I realize how 5 zero-casting.cost spells are enough to survive opponents first turn without losing too many cards and counterspell's options

I'm still waiting to find a dredge play for 10 or so SB games, so I can't really comment on that.  Cryptic Command should have been good as you can replace a bounce spell with a counter spell. I wasn't ever happy to see it early and it was unimpressive late. You almost never get the bounce and counter mode. Usually it's one or the other with a draw. I had trouble casting Glen Elendra many games. A flying creature that will counter 2 spells is great. I wasn't really happy seeing her in my opening hand, I still feel like she might be a perfect fit for this deck. Maybe out of the sideboard against Oath...

I'm testing Glen and Cryptic Command and they are strong but the deck is so redundant & tight, it seems to me to be a waste of resources to use 1of when you can't afford them consistently.


MAxxMAtt

[TheJesus]

Think about your examples. Opponents did nothing not because their plan failed because they resolve CotV@1 instead of CotV@2. They simply failed on clunking you down with Spheres and denial before exposing himself blindly to your Drains. A MUD who let you abuse of Drains in multiples is unlucky or wrong about strategy. I would have preferred Spheres before Staks/Wires.

I think that chalice @ 2 would have been better.  A blind Chalice should have been set at 0. Everytime. He could have gone Tanglewire, Chalice 0, pass. If I was the Stax player, I would have done this. At most, Stax's opponent gets a land and maybe a 1cc permanent. Stax follows with Smokestax. Opponent scoops them up. The question is, "Does Chalice at 1 shut down your deck?" I believe the answer is no. I do hate getting Chains and Stifle shut off, but we have more important cards. Remember, we don't have to play any spells to win.

Also, would Echoing Truth or whatever be better in the slot? Well, you can't run 1 Truth and expect to find it. It doesn't have the same impact as a 1 of Crucible (where it makes your opponent scoop). Now you could replace all of the Chains with Truth which helps to randomly bounce multiple permanents. I believe it's worth the risk against Stax, confirmed with this tier 3 example, to play a 1cc spell vs a 2cc spell.

As a bonus, you can do tricks with Glen Elendra (if she ever makes the cut) or Ingot Chewer (...again) to make this spell much better. You can also save your Nullrod or Crucible from opponent's removal. Yes, Echoing Truth is much better against dredge or other token decks than Chains of Vapor. I just can't see us winning that match.

MaxxMatt are you available for testing for the dredge match up? I really feel like we could make some progress on the sideboard. I feel like we have 4 slots because the control match ups are so easy. I would like to hope that the Leyline makes the difference.

EDIT:
Hey, there is a spoiler card here that is very interesting at the 4cc slot:

Jace, the Mindsculptor  
Planeswalker - Jace  
[+2]: Look at the top card of target player's library. You may put that card at the bottom of his or her library.
[-0]: Draw 3 cards, then put 2 cards from your hand on the top of your library in any order.
[-1]: Return target creature to its owner's hand.
[-12]: Exile all cards from target player's library. That player then shuffles their hand into their library.

Loyalty 3

Seems rather good as you can bounce creatures for cheap and control opponent's draw. Graveyard removal is much too slow, but multiple Brainstorms for 1 card seem hot. The last ability can win you the game. Activate it against an opponent and you win.

You would probably look every turn unless it's after a counter battle. In that case, you can Brainstorm instead, finding the Standstill or counters you need. Best part is that all of this happens under Standstill.

Would this be worth a slot?

EDIT Updated with card picture and corrected text.

[japankralsam]

Hello from Czech Republic, i love standstill too, is pretty strong deck and i was in many TOP4 with it. I play it for 3 years and i will go on i rape many fishes, oaths, dredgers, staxes, tezzerets and some probs i ve with well-played tendrills

There is my decklist:
Lands
    1  Library of Alexandria (i would like to cut it out - this card is awesome shit, mby with standstills you have chance to get 7 cards back + is collorless)
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Mishra's Factory
    4  Volcanic Island
    2  Faerie Conclave
    3  Island
    3  Flooded Strand
    2  Polluted Delta

// Spells
    2  Chain of Vapor
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Impulse
    2  Lightning Bolt
    1  Brainstorm
    1  Ponder
    4  Force of Will
    2  Echoing Truth
    3  Stifle
    2  Crucible of Worlds
    3  Fire/Ice
    1  Ancestral Recall
    3  Nevinyrral's Disk
    4  Standstill
    4  Mana Drain

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Rack and Ruin
SB: 2  Spell Snare
SB: 2  Pyroblast
SB: 1  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2  Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2  Engineered Explosives
SB: 3  Tormod's Crypt

i am really thinking about add tinker+colossus+key+vault+crypt+sol ring+tezz for next competition
Coz it could produce really fast kill with tinker+colossus and is resistable again disc

Disc = nightmare for all MUD, staxes etc.

[Delha]

Disc = nightmare for all MUD, staxes etc.

I'm not sure where you got this idea from. Disk does nothing against Null Rods, and is going to be absurdly hard to resolve against pretty much any competent build of a Shop-Prison variant. Between 8 sphere effects that impede Disk directly, along with Wastes, Wires, and other mana denial components, I very highly doubt that Disk is a realistic answer. When people are struggling to resolve a 2 CMC instant (Hurkyl's), I don't see a 4 CMC sorcery speed alternative being superior. If you're going down that path, you might as well use Serenity instead. It does practically the same thing for much less mana.

I'm not sure how you were casting Disk even against non mana-denial opponents. The deck isn't exactly loaded with a ton of acceleration, so outside of draining something, where did you get the mana for Disk?

[Shock Wave]

... is going to be absurdly hard to resolve against pretty much any competent build of a Shop-Prison variant. Between 8 sphere effects that impede Disk directly, along with Wastes, Wires, and other mana denial components, I very highly doubt that Disk is a realistic answer.

While I think that this particular build of Landstill is going to have trouble resolving Disk, I don't think resolving Disk is an unrealistic expectation for Landstill in general. The problem with Disk is that it is not synergistic with Null Rod, which is one of the cornerstones of Landstill. In most matchups, Disk is quite poor, whereas Rod is generally very strong, so to struggle to resolve it in the one matchup where it is useful seems like a poor design approach.

[Delha]

While I think that this particular build of Landstill is going to have trouble resolving Disk, I don't think resolving Disk is an unrealistic expectation for Landstill in general.

Even against MUD or Stax? Making land drops under spheres is obviously a big plus, but by turn five or six when you can cast Disk, I'd expect MUD's fast clock to get you, or for that Stax would have had plenty of time to establish a solid lock.

Not trying to be difficult here, I just honestly don't know. I've never been particularly interested in Landstill.

[Shock Wave]

While I think that this particular build of Landstill is going to have trouble resolving Disk, I don't think resolving Disk is an unrealistic expectation for Landstill in general.

Even against MUD or Stax? Making land drops under spheres is obviously a big plus, but by turn five or six when you can cast Disk, I'd expect MUD's fast clock to get you, or for that Stax would have had plenty of time to establish a solid lock.

Not trying to be difficult here, I just honestly don't know. I've never been particularly interested in Landstill.

Well, it really depends on the build, and how good it is at protecting itself early. You are correct in that it is far more difficult for sphere.dec to lock out Landstill than it is to lock out Jace.dec because Landstill can make land drops with much greater consistency. Also, the real problem for Shops in this matchup is that it doesn't really matter if they resolve spheres if they can't get a threat to stick. Without a threat, Landstill has inevitability. Cards like Tangle Wire and Sphere don't really buy a lot of time against a deck that is continually developing its mana base. The shop player needs a threat fast, whereas against Jace.dec they will often get a few extra turns where their opponent is just stuck and completely helpless.

Now, whether this particular decklist can resolve Disk with any consistency is a separate issue. Personally, I feel that cards like Mana Drain, Impulse, Ponder, Brainstorm, and Fire/Ice are all very underwhelming against modern shop decks. I would imagine that this build is less successful against shops than is being suggested, but I could be wrong.
 

[japankralsam]

While I think that this particular build of Landstill is going to have trouble resolving Disk, I don't think resolving Disk is an unrealistic expectation for Landstill in general.

Even against MUD or Stax? Making land drops under spheres is obviously a big plus, but by turn five or six when you can cast Disk, I'd expect MUD's fast clock to get you, or for that Stax would have had plenty of time to establish a solid lock.

Even against MUD or Stax? Making land drops under spheres is obviously a big plus, but by turn five or six when you can cast Disk, I'd expect MUD's fast clock to get you, or for that Stax would have had plenty of time to establish a solid lock.


So my experiences talk:

Mana Drain+Disc = end
Land+ crypt, 2nd turn after 5/3 disc (or lightning) and mud man is stacked
It is about force opponent to make mistakes when disc is on the battlefield
The game again mud is all about: how fast you get disc on table, than keep situation to get more control cards and/or lands and than punish him by disc, than cast standstill to get maximal control over the game. I never tested landstill with null rod, i could imagine that again all mana sources and time vaults decks (oath, tezz, jace, tendrills) and etc. is really great.
But again mud is not so good in my opinion,  even if some mud, stax builds consist some of them mby again triskelion , metalworker, equips......

Agains all others blue deck i had advantage with the number of control cards over the game. Fow, ManaDrain, Echoing truth, Chain of vapor, REB, and draw engine which isnt only about ancestral recall.

The build which i posted is quiet old - i am thinking about add more vintage pieces like Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Tinker, Colossus, Voltaic Key, Time Vault, Artifact Transmute.
On the other hand still can be powered with Null Rod in the way of stack opponents - Null rod+Wastelands+Strip Mine+Crucible+Stiffle - question is , is it enough?
Question how great is null rod again other decks on the field......Fish? sux, Ichorid sux.........??

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

1 Black Lotus
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Null Rod
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Echoing truth
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Mana Drain
1 mana leak
1 reb
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Spell Pierce
4 Standstill
3 Stifle
1 Time Walk
3 lightning bolt
2 Gorilla Shaman

Lands (21):
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Underground sea
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

3 Energy Flux
1 Pyroblast
4 leyline
1 Underground sea
2 jailer
4 Threads of Disloyalty

I am a landstill fanatic, and with this list played properly, it will beat mud most of the time! and off the side you have 3 flux which makes it insane. Disc is really slow and in my experience with 8000 spheres thats pretty hard to cast vs mud. Anyone that knows me will tell you that I am the local landstill fanatic of the blue bell east coast scene. Test it out and see what you think dics seems awfully slow and better in maybe a legacy landstill list which i have sported b4

[Stormanimagus]

I think people are consistently playing the wrong "role" when designing Landstill. The Landstill deck needs to truly control the game and has no time for hate that is too narrow. Obviously we need an answer to MUD but I think the route the deck should take is far more streamlined and mana-denial-esque. I'm also surprised that no one is including Jace TMS in any of their lists as he seems like an obvious include to me. Here's a sample list for you TMDers to sink your teeth into. I think it shows good promise despite being untested:

URB Landstill

Land (25):
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library Of Alexandria

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Null Rod

Enchantments (4):
4 Standstill

Planeswalkers (2):
2 Jace, The Mindsculptor

Instants (20):
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Spell Pierce
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Thoughtseize
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

SB
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Bojuka Bog
1 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroclasm
2 Ghost Quarter

Though this is a rough list I am already excited at the possibilities. I think the true test of this deck's viability will be:

A.) MUD
B.) Dredge
C.) TPS

in THAT order.

So, we'll see I suppose. Just some food for thought and those of you that love lists .

-Storm

EDIT: Just some more food for thought here is a possible UBW list:

URB Landstill

Land (25):
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
4 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library Of Alexandria

Artifacts (7):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Null Rod

Enchantments (4):
4 Standstill

Planeswalkers (2):
2 Jace, The Mindsculptor

Instants (21):
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Spell Pierce
4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk


SB
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Bojuka Bog
2 Sacred Ground
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Balance
4 Serenity

[theLastGnu]

Is the sideboard dredge hate really worth diluting the mana base with a third color? Especially if Magus makes a comeback with the unrestriction of Gush, it seems like you'd be fine just cutting black altogether.

[Stormanimagus]

Is the sideboard dredge hate really worth diluting the mana base with a third color? Especially if Magus makes a comeback with the unrestriction of Gush, it seems like you'd be fine just cutting black altogether.

So you just scoop to Dredge than? Not a good idea. I think that the best hate for Dredge is Leyline Of The Void followed by Jailer, but, in THIS deck the bog is very good because you can play it under Standstill without breaking the Standstill. Trust me, you NEED  lot of effective hate vs. Dredge because your clock is sooo slow. I suppose I could make room for black bombs like DT, Vamp and Will, but I really don't see those as belonging in this deck. Perhaps the REBs in the SB could be changed over to Duress or Thoughtseize?

[Royal Ass.]

Storm- What is your rational behind not running Library of Alexandria in your build?  It seems like it would be a good fit.

[Stormanimagus]

Storm- What is your rational behind not running Library of Alexandria in your build?  It seems like it would be a good fit.

Oh, I believe that was a very simple oversight on my part. thanks for the reminder. I'll add it to both lists. Which do you prefer btw? I think the UBW list has the potential to beat MUD more easily and the UBR might have an easier time with Fish and Gush. Thoughts?

-Storm