U/R Landstill still viable?

[theLastGnu]

Is the sideboard dredge hate really worth diluting the mana base with a third color? Especially if Magus makes a comeback with the unrestriction of Gush, it seems like you'd be fine just cutting black altogether.

So you just scoop to Dredge than? Not a good idea. I think that the best hate for Dredge is Leyline Of The Void followed by Jailer, but, in THIS deck the bog is very good because you can play it under Standstill without breaking the Standstill. Trust me, you NEED  lot of effective hate vs. Dredge because your clock is sooo slow. I suppose I could make room for black bombs like DT, Vamp and Will, but I really don't see those as belonging in this deck. Perhaps the REBs in the SB could be changed over to Duress or Thoughtseize?

I meant, your hate is all "free." Replaying a leyline seems marginal in comparison to weakening your mana base. Granted I haven't tested against a gauntlet in ages, and I may be over-estimating the non-basic hate in the format.

[vassago]

I like the urb best. I think there should be a gorilla shaman there. I would try and fit a main deck artifact removal of sorts in there. Too bad you cant splash a random green source for ancient grudge.   

[wierdmtg13]

If I was going to just choose one which would be the better bet - stifle or spell pierce?

I am very well aware that it is metagame dependent but in my mind it seems like stifle is better against combo heavy environment while spell pierce is better against a control environment.

Which one of the two would be better against stax?

I'm used to playing stifle in urbana fish or u/b lists, but i have yet to play in a tournament where I ran spell pierce.

Thanks for the input.

[Stormanimagus]

If I was going to just choose one which would be the better bet - stifle or spell pierce?

I am very well aware that it is metagame dependent but in my mind it seems like stifle is better against combo heavy environment while spell pierce is better against a control environment.

Which one of the two would be better against stax?

I'm used to playing stifle in urbana fish or u/b lists, but i have yet to play in a tournament where I ran spell pierce.

Thanks for the input.

Exactly the opposite. Spell Pierce is better vs. Storm than Stifle by far. You will never get to stifle their storm trigger because they'll always have a Duress involved with the Will turn. Spell Pierce is really only questionable due to the creatures floating around, but I think it is still a necessary evil for the deck.

-Storm

[Stormanimagus]

Ok, so I won't give out the specific list yet (gotta keep it on the DL for a tourney this weekend), but I will say that Landstill is very VERY good ATM and will make an impact on the metagame if people choose to play it. There are many more tools right now for the deck to succeed and a lot of prison strategies floating around.

You see, I believe that when Prison Aggro strategies like MUD swarm the format it calls for a true "Control" deck to come along and answer them. I believe this may BE that deck. I will say that the list I arrived at is very different from the two I've posted on this forum. And I think it is infinitely better TBH. List will be posted after the tournament on Sunday. Hopefully a victorious tournament!

-Storm

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I think people are consistently playing the wrong "role" when designing Landstill. The Landstill deck needs to truly control the game and has no time for hate that is too narrow. Obviously we need an answer to MUD but I think the route the deck should take is far more streamlined and mana-denial-esque. I'm also surprised that no one is including Jace TMS in any of their lists as he seems like an obvious include to me. Here's a sample list for you TMDers to sink your teeth into. I think it shows good promise despite being untested:

URB Landstill

Land (25):
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library Of Alexandria

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Null Rod

Enchantments (4):
4 Standstill

Planeswalkers (2):
2 Jace, The Mindsculptor

Instants (20):
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Spell Pierce
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Thoughtseize
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

SB
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Bojuka Bog
1 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroclasm
2 Ghost Quarter

Though this is a rough list I am already excited at the possibilities. I think the true test of this deck's viability will be:

A.) MUD
B.) Dredge
C.) TPS

in THAT order.

So, we'll see I suppose. Just some food for thought and those of you that love lists .

-Storm

EDIT: Just some more food for thought here is a possible UBW list:

URB Landstill

Land (25):
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
4 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library Of Alexandria

Artifacts (7):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Null Rod

Enchantments (4):
4 Standstill

Planeswalkers (2):
2 Jace, The Mindsculptor

Instants (21):
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Spell Pierce
4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk


SB
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Bojuka Bog
2 Sacred Ground
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Balance
4 Serenity

I have tried 3 colors too many times and the deck just isnt as strong as 2c, I feel with 3 colors you should play 4 stifle imo but a balanced 2c list is wayyyyyy better imo...I have 2 main issues with your lists, you should be running 1 mystical 1 hurkyl's in both lists...not having an out to a inkwell is bad, and plus chalice at 1 is really bad. I have found that landstill needs 1 drop kill spells to deal with lodestone rather then just bouncing it. I would suggest innocent blood it kills lodestone, and inkwell, play bounce spells and kill spells... I would stick with playing UR or UB (ur sporting 3 bolt, ub sporting 3 innocent blood) and I personally feel landstill NEEDS at least 2 stifle, sometimes 3...its so cute to lead a dual out vs shops only to have them waste there turn by them trying to waste land it, and you surprise them with stifle. Not only that but vs blue it denys fetch lands...And also in my lists im including, either shamans, chains, hurkyls, e-truth...you need 1 and 2 drops to answer chalice!...My UB list i have together is NUTS and I do run JTMS now. I really feel like putting my new list on here but I'm playing it at a tournament this coming weekend and plan on doing really well with it, so I will have to come back to this one

...and in addition, you should have the on color mox's. Atleast 2 of them bc i perfer 2c builds. Hitting the turn 1 standstill is insane. I also include 2 daze in my lists. Idk might seem like im rambling on now but I have only been testing landstill variants for toooooo long and I always try cutting daze and stifle and always miss them. I also include 1 misdirection main at times

[Diakonov]

Perhaps it's just because I don't know the match-up that well, but the argument for Bojuka Bog not breaking Standstill: it seems to me like Standstill is probably something you'd want to side out against Dredge, amirite?

[Stormanimagus]

Perhaps it's just because I don't know the match-up that well, but the argument for Bojuka Bog not breaking Standstill: it seems to me like Standstill is probably something you'd want to side out against Dredge, amirite?

Absolutely not. It draws you into FoW's for their anti-hate. That is what game 2 and 3 are all about. Hate vs. Anti-hate. They can't really "slow roll" you because you have access to 2/2's that don't count as spells. Perhaps I'm wrong about this, but I'd never cut Standstill.

-Storm

[znoyes]

Hello. I am generally a fan of utility creatures in these types of decks: ones that get you value each turn. Creatures in the vintage formate basically have "protection from everything" because nobody is man enough to play creature removal spells. The best of these creatures in my oppinion are:

1) Dark Confidant
2) Trygon Predator
3) Sower of Temptation

The general weakness of a landstill deck is that you need permanent control in order for standstill to function, but then you are weaker to decks like storm that function by casting lots of spells. Playing creatures as your permanent control somewhat subverts this danger because they are clocks that must be dealt with. Trygon gives you your out to the challice problem discussed above. Trygon also means that you can avoid playing null rod, as, while he is less focused hate, he is sufficient artifact hate IMO for a deck that slows the game down like this one. This also lets you play sensei's divining top, which is pretty good in a pure control deck. Sower means that you don't need to be so focused on using bounce spells to answer creatures. Dark Confidant is Vintage's version of Counterbalance: each turn he draws you into free countermagic, locking your opponent out of their hand and applying pressure.

[Stormanimagus]

Hello. I am generally a fan of utility creatures in these types of decks: ones that get you value each turn. Creatures in the vintage formate basically have "protection from everything" because nobody is man enough to play creature removal spells. The best of these creatures in my oppinion are:

1) Dark Confidant
2) Trygon Predator
3) Sower of Temptation

The general weakness of a landstill deck is that you need permanent control in order for standstill to function, but then you are weaker to decks like storm that function by casting lots of spells. Playing creatures as your permanent control somewhat subverts this danger because they are clocks that must be dealt with. Trygon gives you your out to the challice problem discussed above. Trygon also means that you can avoid playing null rod, as, while he is less focused hate, he is sufficient artifact hate IMO for a deck that slows the game down like this one. This also lets you play sensei's divining top, which is pretty good in a pure control deck. Sower means that you don't need to be so focused on using bounce spells to answer creatures. Dark Confidant is Vintage's version of Counterbalance: each turn he draws you into free countermagic, locking your opponent out of their hand and applying pressure.

I think Confidant is antithetical to what this deck wants to spend turn 2 doing. He's going to kill you far too often

Trygon costs too much mana for what he does.

Sower is a card I run as a 3 of in the SB and I'd never cut him. He is the balls awesome when he comes in vs. Goyf Decks or even against opposing Trygons.

I think that the best card for destroying artifacts is definitely Gorilla Shaman, and should replace Null Rod in current versions of Landstill. Gorilla Shaman actually makes Mindbreak Trap far better hate vs. Tezz and TPS.

-Storm

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Perhaps it's just because I don't know the match-up that well, but the argument for Bojuka Bog not breaking Standstill: it seems to me like Standstill is probably something you'd want to side out against Dredge, amirite?

Absolutely not. It draws you into FoW's for their anti-hate. That is what game 2 and 3 are all about. Hate vs. Anti-hate. They can't really "slow roll" you because you have access to 2/2's that don't count as spells. Perhaps I'm wrong about this, but I'd never cut Standstill.

-Storm

I normally sb 1 standstill bc the only reason is that they are only good once you have control of dredge with a leyline or jailer out...but if your not in control of dredge standstill is bad vs dredge...

[znoyes]

After some testing I can agree with Storm's evaluation about confidant and trygon, if not the conclusion. If using red, grim lavamancer is another possible option along the lines of "creatures that give incremental advantage/constitute softlocks against certain opponents".

[znoyes]

Hi,

After some more testing, the only card that I am unhappy with is the chain of vapor/echoing truth/bounce spell.
Some other type of permanent hate card should be used in it's place IMO, but I don't know what that should be.

[Stormanimagus]

Hi all!

So after playing at a tiny 7 man event this weekend and losing Metalworker twice with Landstill I'm pretty comfortable saying that Null Rod may be the better fit in this deck, especially since we run 4 Mana Drain. I think that Shaman is a "cute" card that can occasionally have wacky synergies with the deck but while Shaman + Mindbreak Trap is cool I'd say that Null Rod + Energy Flux is cooler and more solidly GG's in a match-up you need to win to have a chance of making top 8. I also think I may have overdone it a bit on the Dredge hate, because I think that match-up isn't about the sheer quantity, but rather the quality of the hate you use. So after playing this weekend with UR landstill, here's the list I recommend going forward:


Ghost-Still

Land (24):
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Library Of Alexandria

and  (9):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
4 Null Rod
2 Crucible Of Worlds

Planeswalkers (2):
2 Jace The Mindsculptor

Enchantments (4):
4 Standstill

Instants (20):
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
4 Leyline Of The Void
2 Bojuka Bog
3 Energy Flux
3 Ingot Chewer
3 The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale

Perhaps, if this deck gets enough discussion going, I'll make a real nice looking thread to discuss it with an official name, but I don't want the non-believers to be tipped off to the viability of the deck by seeing a nice clean looking thread ya know? . Let me know what you think about this list and any modifications you might make, but please explain them a bit, as I've worked really hard to try to make this deck as resilient to the field as possible and I think I finally may have come to the "right" list, if there even IS such a thing.

Peace,

-Storm

[znoyes]

Comments:
Jace is pretty good for what this deck is trying to do: 3-4 may be a better fit.
I liked grim lavamancer in the games that I played because he was often a soft lock against decks relying on cards liike dark confidant or other utility beaters. Mr. Grim may also help your metalworker situation.
I like null rod + flux as an anti-stax strategy.
Tabernacle is great anti dredge tech.
Maybe ghost quarter is a little too much on the colorless strip effects.
I tried red blasts in the sideboard and liked them.

[Stormanimagus]

Comments:
Jace is pretty good for what this deck is trying to do: 3-4 may be a better fit.
I liked grim lavamancer in the games that I played because he was often a soft lock against decks relying on cards liike dark confidant or other utility beaters. Mr. Grim may also help your metalworker situation.
I like null rod + flux as an anti-stax strategy.
Tabernacle is great anti dredge tech.
Maybe ghost quarter is a little too much on the colorless strip effects.
I tried red blasts in the sideboard and liked them.

the null rods actually come out vs. non-metalworker MUD because then they are less powerful. obviously cards like Steel Hellkite and Triskelion can change this call, but usually 0 worker = 0 need for Null Rod. How do I know if they are running 0-1 worker post game 1? I guess I can't unless I see it, so it's just a guessing game and you have to use your best judgement

As to the 3 Jace Comment. I dunno. Since you have 4 ANSWERS to Jace I'm not sure 3 is necessary as he is a finisher that doesn't often hit play until turn 4-5 at the earliest anyway. I think 2 is fine for his functionality as a "lock-up-the-game" card for the end game.

Grim Lavamancer has antisynergy with with crucible and, while nuking fishies and confidants, is sorta redundant with Lightning Bolt while also having summoning sickness and being slow. I realize that he is a long-term win con, but he does have a big target on his head and he doesn't affect the early game enough. You need cards in this deck that help you get passed turn 4. Bolt is one of those cards. Lavamancer rarely is.

-Storm

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

6th - Josh Potucek
Landstill

1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Snow-covered Island
2 Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Stifle
4 Standstill
1 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
2 Daze
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Gorilla Shaman
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Null Rod

SB:
2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Energy Flux
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Underground Sea
2 Extirpate
4 Yixlid Jailer

Top 8 at bloomsburg with this.

Round 1, 2-1 lose tho shops (mull to 5 game 3)
Round 2, BYE!!
Round 3, 2-0 shops
Round 4, 2-1 shops
Round 5, 2-0 oath (vs a friend who was gonna give me the win anywho)

Top 8, 1-2 lose to cobra gush storm (very poor draws insanely poor, saw tooo many shamans and no mana drains)

Conclusion: I chose last minute to not play jace and that was a mistake, I feel like 1-2 jace is fine. This was the one time I didn't play vs dredge and had the dredge hate, but when I don't sb hate I get paired vs it. Just one of those things I suppose. I will test 3 shaman some more, not sure if that is right (may go back to 3 rod, 2 shaman). Stifle was awsome. I might take a leap and try the deck without daze...There are so many ways to build this deck and have it perform its nuts. I want to play 2 misdirection so badly in this deck but its obv weak vs shops, but stellar vs blue tutoring up recall

[Bera]

Hi all!

So after playing at a tiny 7 man event this weekend and losing Metalworker twice with Landstill I'm pretty comfortable saying that Null Rod may be the better fit in this deck, especially since we run 4 Mana Drain. I think that Shaman is a "cute" card that can occasionally have wacky synergies with the deck but while Shaman + Mindbreak Trap is cool I'd say that Null Rod + Energy Flux is cooler and more solidly GG's in a match-up you need to win to have a chance of making top 8. I also think I may have overdone it a bit on the Dredge hate, because I think that match-up isn't about the sheer quantity, but rather the quality of the hate you use. So after playing this weekend with UR landstill, here's the list I recommend going forward:


Ghost-Still

Land (24):
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Library Of Alexandria

and  (9):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
4 Null Rod
2 Crucible Of Worlds

Planeswalkers (2):
2 Jace The Mindsculptor

Enchantments (4):
4 Standstill

Instants (20):
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
4 Leyline Of The Void
2 Bojuka Bog
3 Energy Flux
3 Ingot Chewer
3 The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale

Perhaps, if this deck gets enough discussion going, I'll make a real nice looking thread to discuss it with an official name, but I don't want the non-believers to be tipped off to the viability of the deck by seeing a nice clean looking thread ya know? . Let me know what you think about this list and any modifications you might make, but please explain them a bit, as I've worked really hard to try to make this deck as resilient to the field as possible and I think I finally may have come to the "right" list, if there even IS such a thing.

Peace,

-Storm

I took a similar list to a Tabernacle tournament in another town. I've been a big fan of landstill and really like the addition of ghost quarter and the direction you're taking it. I am looking forward to further development in this style of build.

We only had 14 show so it was 4 rounds -> top 4

What I got to play against and brief summaries of what happened:

R1: UBr Tez 2-0
I lock him out early in the first game and start bashing with a factory while resolving standstills. Next game He keeps a 1 lander, I pierce his brainstorm and get quarter with crucible online.

R2: Workshops 2-0
I go first with island and mox ruby. He drops just enough mana sources to play karn and passes. My turn involves another island, a sapphire and a gorilla shaman to blow up his mana crypt. he uses his turn to blow up my moxen and try to resolve a triskelion which gets drained allowing me to stick jace the next turn, waste him, bounce karn and get rid of more mana artifacts. I start fatesealing and win.

R3: Friend I drove with, we were hungry and decided to draw to get food since a detour didn't allow us to eat before hand

R4: Storm 0-2

He's able to force through a necro on the 2nd turn I believe and my hand wasn't to stellar. He ended up having to necro to 7, plays a duress forcing me to bolt him to 4 and then he necros down to 1. I didn't draw a bolt

My hand is waste, tarn, island, sapphire, stifle, drain, force. Unfortunately, he was playing a bunch of basics and never actually played a fetch but I was able to slow the game wayyy down after a rather large counter war. In the end he resolved jace and got me.

I believe I ended up 5th or 6th, my buddy made t4 and ended up splitting so all was not lost

After reflecting on the games today I realized I only drew and cast standstill twice, both of which were in the first round and I never drew ancestral

My list

4 mishra's factory
4 scalding tarn
4 island
4 wasteland
3 volcanic island
2 ghost quarter
1 strip mine
1 mountain
1 loa
1 mox ruby
1 mox sapphire
1 black lotus

3 null rod
2 crucible of worlds

4 spell pierce
4 mana drain
4 force of will
3 stifle

4 standstill
1 ancestral recall
1 brainstorm
1 time walk

2 jace the mindsculptor

1 rack and ruin
1 gorilla shaman
3 lightning bolt

sb
4 leyline of the void
1 tormod's crypt
1 bojuka bog
3 ingot chewer
2 sower of temptation
1 rebuild
2 energy flux
1 lightning bolt



Overall I was pretty happy with the list. I wish I had more cards to bring in for storm but can't really think of anything at the moment, I'm pretty happy with the list at the moment, stifle might turn into something else.

[beder]

Overall I was pretty happy with the list. I wish I had more cards to bring in for storm but can't really think of anything at the moment, I'm pretty happy with the list at the moment, stifle might turn into something else.

Mindbreak Trap!

Even in main, it could be very good in Landstill. And if not in main, it is definitely a very good side card against storm or gush decks.

[Bera]

Overall I was pretty happy with the list. I wish I had more cards to bring in for storm but can't really think of anything at the moment, I'm pretty happy with the list at the moment, stifle might turn into something else.

Mindbreak Trap!

Even in main, it could be very good in Landstill. And if not in main, it is definitely a very good side card against storm or gush decks.

I considered it but I really didn't see it having a huge impact since they would just duress it as they went off. I figured Stifle would have more uses and can also fizzle their storm.

[beder]

Overall I was pretty happy with the list. I wish I had more cards to bring in for storm but can't really think of anything at the moment, I'm pretty happy with the list at the moment, stifle might turn into something else.

Mindbreak Trap!

Even in main, it could be very good in Landstill. And if not in main, it is definitely a very good side card against storm or gush decks.

I considered it but I really didn't see it having a huge impact since they would just duress it as they went off. I figured Stifle would have more uses and can also fizzle their storm.

In today's meta, do not forget that lots of storm deck are gush ones. Those deck can frequently play 3 spells in a turn, even if this is not the turn where they really combo. Moreover, those deck do not always play duress effect.

Finally and even against regular storm (tps for instance), mindbreak can be used on the engine itself. The difference with stifle is huge :
- stifle can only be used on tendrils. It means that the storm engine has already been casted (yawmoth will, bargain, draw 7...) and so opponent should be able to access duress thanks to the engine,
- Mindbreak can be used on tendrils AND before, on the engine itself, when opponent is less likely to have found a duress. This is a huge difference.

To sum up :
Stifle is good against tendrils deck only if backuped with another counter for the duress.
Mindbreak is surely good against tendrils deck if backuped, but can also be good to stop the engine.

[Bera]

Overall I was pretty happy with the list. I wish I had more cards to bring in for storm but can't really think of anything at the moment, I'm pretty happy with the list at the moment, stifle might turn into something else.

Mindbreak Trap!

Even in main, it could be very good in Landstill. And if not in main, it is definitely a very good side card against storm or gush decks.

I considered it but I really didn't see it having a huge impact since they would just duress it as they went off. I figured Stifle would have more uses and can also fizzle their storm.

In today's meta, do not forget that lots of storm deck are gush ones. Those deck can frequently play 3 spells in a turn, even if this is not the turn where they really combo. Moreover, those deck do not always play duress effect.

Finally and even against regular storm (tps for instance), mindbreak can be used on the engine itself. The difference with stifle is huge :
- stifle can only be used on tendrils. It means that the storm engine has already been casted (yawmoth will, bargain, draw 7...) and so opponent should be able to access duress thanks to the engine,
- Mindbreak can be used on tendrils AND before, on the engine itself, when opponent is less likely to have found a duress. This is a huge difference.

To sum up :
Stifle is good against tendrils deck only if backuped with another counter for the duress.
Mindbreak is surely good against tendrils deck if backuped, but can also be good to stop the engine.

Yeah I'll have to play around with the card and see what I like. The slot might become dedicated to something else entirely. I think I'm going to add pyrostatic pillar to the sideboard.

[personalbackfire]

As long as you are going narrow in your approach maybe try a maindeck Reb or two over the Trap. Reb is one of the best cards against all blue decks, not just storm. It is def better vs gush decks than straight TPS but it is still good there.

[Bera]

reb will probably make it back into the sideboard somewhere. Probably over the 1 rebuild and 1 bolt.