Disclaimer: I have spent over two hours typing this response and it has thus turned into quite a novel (another thing I seem to have inherited from Wakefield...the tendency to produce long winded-yet-uninformative rambles). As a courtesy to the "tl;dr" crowd, I have included CliffsNotes at the very bottom. Scroll down to the very end if you just want a deck list and and a rundown of the changes.Hey all. First, I just want to say thanks to everyone for all of the suggestions. The support from this thread has frankly been a little overwhelming; when I first started this thread I feared I would be ridiculed for wanting to play such a Timmy deck but I guess EDH is the kind of format that lets you get away with such foolery.
For the past few days I've basically been playing nothing but EDH and have been crushing people left and right in 1v1 games on MWS. I fear in multi-player games people would probably team up on me and I would have a much harder time of it if I cast something like Multani but for the moment I'm operating with impunity and loving it. The only downside is the very large number of MWS-ers who will abruptly quit you once they see how badly you are smashing them, but then again, this is hardly unique to EDH. If anything, the average EDH player is a much better sport than some of the jerks who play T2 and Legacy (I haven't even gone near MWS T1 because I hear it is just ridiculously bad).
A Summary of Testing and What I Have Learned About EDH in General- The land destruction and removal element of this deck is very, very useful. The ability to even color screw someone is invaluable and when you throw in outright mana screw you basically can't lose. Obviously in multi-player games this aspect of the deck becomes less and less useful the more players there are unless you're playing in teams or something. In which case it is still probably quite good.
-You get 40 life to start with and you're almost always the aggressor. This allows you to do some broken things on a grander scale. Cards like Phyrexian Processor and Sylvan Library were included in the original list for this reason, and new additions like Tornado have to be played to be believed. More on Tornado and other additions in a moment...
-Dead cards are as useless in EDH as they are everywhere else. Just because this is the "Fun" format that doesn't give you a license to run Quarum Trench Gnomes (though if you did and actually found a way to win, you'd be my hero <3).
Let me bring you up to speed on the latest deck list and the most notable inclusions/exclusions.
Cards RemovedSerrated Arrows: nostalgia only goes so far. This card really wasn't pulling its weight and was very much slowing me down as its very reactive/defensive. Generally I'd get off a single -1/-1 counter before either having Arrows destroyed or being overwhelmed by more threats than this old-timey artifact could handle. It was a bad decision to include in the first place, in hindsight, given that you don't see enough weenies in a format this slow and you quite frankly couldn't care less to see a swarm of Savannah Lions, Jackal Pups, and Whirling Dervishes on the other side. If you ever do, you can laugh as you turn your Primalcrux, Thorn Elemental, and Multani sideways.
Autumn Willow: like her Homelands companion Serrated Arrows, another card originally included for the sake of nostalgia more than efficiency. When I first started playing Magic this was considered one of the best creatures ever printed and even though I knew it had become obsolete as early as 1999 (its' not like it saw play in old Extended after it rotated out of Standard) I thought I'd give the old girl a day in court in EDH. This was definitely a mistake. I now strongly believe Autumn Willow to be inferior to like Shroud creatures such as Kodama, Quagnoth, and even Citanul Centaurs. The 4/4 body for 6 mana just wasn't doing anything for me and even if it is hard to remove, so what? The whole point of this deck is that for the most part it doesn't care nearly as much about losing a single creature since it can just play so many game-winning threats back to back that one replaces the next until the opponent is thoroughly overwhelmed.
Baloth Woodcrasher: I quite like this card as it is frequently an 8/8 trample for 6 mana and occasionally even a 12/12 with some help from a fetch land. And if you really wanted to explore an EDH turbo-land variant, this card could really be put to good use with some Thawing Glaciers/Exploration/Oracle of Mul Daya goodness. The problem is this guy is competing for a slot with cards like Cloudthresher that are never less than huge and have useful abilities to boot.
Rhox: more nostalgia. I used to love turning this guy sideways in casual games back around 2000 but it just wasn't a stand out and I had to make room for more useful stuff like Acidic Slime. With that said, I probably would have found a spot to keep for Rhox if its regeneration was cheaper, say, G or 1G.
Darksteel Colossus: Literally the only card I could never hard cast over 3 games of drawing it. If you get a Tooth and Nail with entwine off, this thing is obviously the creature to go for next to Woodfall Primus or Verdant Force but talk about suffering from the "wins more" syndrome. If you get an entwined Tooth and Nail it means you are almost certainly going to win anyway. I'd really like to discourage people from wasting their time with Mr. Stay Puft. This is not a card I was happy to draw.
Citanul Centaurs: Another pet card and all things considered, not half bad. A 6 power attacker with Shroud is nothing to scoff at but the Echo can hinder your development and the 3 toughness is unattractive as you will lose him in combat to much smaller creatures.
Thelonite Hermit: I was in love with this card initially but I'm starting to see the light on this 8 casting cost 1/1. The fact that it counts as an elf actually hurt me pretty badly in the games against Engineered Plague since Rofellos of Nazareth is also a frolicking forest dweller of the Llanowar tribe. And there are other issues—without Rofellos this is just a vanilla 2/2 for a turn, which is obviously awful as far as tempo goes. There is also the vulnerability to Pyroclasm/Tremor/Earthquake/you-name-it that a fat slob like Thorn Elemental simply chortles at. Additonally, consider the fact that Thorn Elemental, which is on the expensive side of cards in the deck, still costs 1 less than a fully morphed Thelonite Hermit. With that said, it would be a moment of intellectual dishonesty were I to gloss over the upside of Thelonite Hermit, namely that he is much less of a threat when playing against decks with Control Magic effects. In fact, this resistance to thievery is the only thing keeping Thelonite's deranged cousin in the deck (well, that and the synergy with sacrifice effects; more on that in a moment).
Thelonite Druid: Unlike Autumn willow, my love of this card has not faded with time. I assert that in the right deck this thing could be quite a threat with the added bonus of being an incredibly humiliating way of defeating one's opponent; nectar of the Gods to a twisted sadist like myself. With that said, it's a 1/1 for three, doesn't do anything in the early game, and even in the late game, contrary to the impression my original post may have left readers with, you aren't really trying to cheat lots of lands into play with Exploration/Gaea's Touch/Kodama's Reach. Those cards would only slow down the deck while putting no pressure on opponents. In other words, the Druid is in the same boat as Baloth Woodcrashers as belonging in a similar yet different deck built primarily around land fall and cheating lands into play. I believe that the same goes for Anusien's suggestions regarding Reach of Branches and possibly Dauntless Dourbark (requires testing). Rampaging Baloths were already in the original list, btw.
Snake Basket: very much in the same boat as Thelonite Hermit. 8 mana for 4 1/1s? No thanks. I'd re-add Darksteel Colossus before I even considered running this card again. Its good only with other cards that won't see play in the deck, i.e., Overrun and Coat of Arms. Speaking of Overrun...
Overrun: Another huge mistake in hindsight. I don't need something to make my fatties fatter and this card was dead at least 5 times when drawn on its own in the late game while I was on the ropes. A very easy cut.
Caller of the Claw: okay, so I'll lose my Baloth Woodcrasher and Quagnoth and get 3 2/2s instead? Um, no thank you, I'd rather just have more removal and disruption to prevent my opponent from dealing with my fatties in the first place. Also, it has been pointed out to me that Rofellos leaving play does NOT count towards Caller's creature count as Rofellos' departure is a replacement effect that doesn't involve the graveyard. This makes perfect sense to me and if it isn't the official ruling, it ought to be. It seems to coincide with the ruling on Enduring Renewal etc. in terms of "if/would."
Phantom Centaur: analogous to Citanul Centaurs but perhaps slightly worse in some scenarios, much better in others. All in all not a game breaker one way or the other. My advice for others is to strongly consider keeping this guy in if you play in a black heavy meta as it then becomes an unblockable 5 power, 4cc attacker that is resistant to black decks' secondary color removal such as Lightning Bolt.
Treetop Village/Mishra's Factory/Gaea's Cradle/Dryad Arbor: we are all in agreement here. These cards are self disruptive in a deck that's gotta have more
Cowbell er, Forests.
Rancor: yes, it is a great deal but talk about going down the wrong path. A more superfluous card I can not imagine. I'm actually embarrassed to have included this in my initial list. Was I hoping to make Silvos a 10/5 instead of an 8/5? How silly. It was constantly dead when I was losing and totally unnecessary when I was winning. Very much a "wins more" card in this deck.
Call of the Herd/Troll Ascetic: good cards but not threatening enough given the dynamic of 40 starting life. In fact, the more testing I do the more I determine abuse of the starting life total to be extremely exploitable (more on this later). At the end of the day, 3 power for 3cc just isn't very sexy.
Razormane Masticore: I've touched on this earlier but let me reiterate—9 times out of 10 you just don't care about the creature your opponent can play with 3 toughness or less unless its a Mereik Ri Berit or something, in which case you still have to wait a turn for it to take effect and are thus quite fucked. Strictly inferior to its smooth maned cousin of the same genus.
Verdant Embrace: as you already know, Auras by and large are to be avoided as they result in card disadvantage facing removal. I included this originally as a supplement to Gaea's Embrace and Blanchwood Armor for Chuck Norris (Tracker). I am keeping all 3 of those for the time being as I just love Tracker that much and EDH lets you get away with playing stuff you know to be sub-optimal but let the record show that I know better. The one thing I like about Embrace is that it makes Rofellos harder to kill. And I did have fun enchanting an actual Verdant Force yesterday, making it a 10/10 saproling factory that could spit tokens at double the speed. Still, I was winning that game anyway and would be lying if I said this deserved a spot.
Beastmaster Ascension: Without Snake Basket and Thelonite Hermit, this has only Deranged Hermit and Saproling Burst to make it good. Probably good in a token theme deck but a "wins more" card here and not worth a slot.
OK! That opens up quite a few slots, as you can see. Let's go over what went in to fill the void.
Recent AdditionsWoodfall Primus: I'm making it official. This card has replaced Verdant Force, at least in my mind, as the title holder of Best Fatty Ever Printed™. Holy fucking God, this thing is a tank! It's so good it's almost unfair. The worst case scenario is that you get a 6/6 trample that is very difficult to kill plus a Stone Rain-as-it-enters-the-battlefield for good measure. Now factor into the equation the ability to remove opposing threats that would otherwise cost you the game: Vedalken Shackles, Moat, The Abyss, or even Story Circle. Need more? How about the synergy with Greater Good, Natural Order and Helm of Possession? Or the fact that it rises from the grave after trading with 2 or 3 blockers on the opposing team, taking out another land as it re-enters? The Greater Good combo in particular will end the game just about every time. And if it doesn't, the cards you sift through will optimize your hand to the point where you'll really be set to go crazy. I can't overstate my love for this card. Thanks to Nefarias for the suggestion!
Tornado: how on earth did this escape consideration earlier? I've yet to draw it in a game but it has to be insane in a deck with oodles of mana and 40 life. In a deck with this much mana, a 5cc enchantment with a re-usable Desert Twister effect for 3 mana sounds good to me. Only time will tell if it lives up to its potential.
Helm of Possession: ok, so this is another pet card and I'm saying it right now, it may be a mistake. My thinking is that it can combo with Rofellos to take control of opposing generals and other threats. Basically, you tap Rofellos for say, 6 mana, sac to Helm to steal your opponents general, then replay Rofellos from the command zone. Also note the synergy with Woodfall Primus. And if you could could somehow get Acidic Slime/Genesis recursion going, the Helm could be a good way to get Acidic into the graveyard every turn, even if your opponents don't have any creatures in play (since you can target a creature you already control). Another card that needs testing. Updates will follow. Stay tuned.
Dense Foliage: another card that should have been a no-brainer from the jump. I'm surprised none of us thought of it right away, as it is probably superior to Lightning Greaves overall. The few games I've lost are the ones where my opponent was able to remove Rofellos repeatedly. This should go a long way in protecting the little guy while also providing partial Shroud to fat bastards like Primalcrux. Also note that this doesn't affect Masticore or Helm of Possession in any way, as it applies only to spells, not abilities.
Staff of Domination: An obvious addition, the existence of which I wasn't initially aware of.
Genesis/Survival: Good on their own, insane together and especially in tandem with 187 creatures like Acidic Slime.
Gleeful Sabotage/Acidic Slime/Indrik Stomphowler/Mold Shambler: Engineered Plague on Elves is more disruptive than I initially thought it would be. I was fairly naive in thinking that I could just overwhelm my opponents before they could remove Rofellos and resign myself to defeat should they survive my initial onslaught. But now I am seeing the potential for a late game should Rofellos live long enough to provide a resurgence.
Eternal Witness: Brings back Naturalize effects, plus goodies like Wasteland/Strip Mine/Plow Under etc. Another good suggestion.
Cloudthresher: I assert this—Cloudthresher would be good if it were just a 7/7 flash for 6 mana. Or just a decent sized creature with the Squall effect. Or a medium sized creature with Evoke plus Squall. But the fact that it has all of the above and absolutely no drawback in a mono green deck is just too much. I haven't drawn it yet but I'm betting it'll be a hell of a lot more useful than piece-of-shit Autumn Willow.
Oracle of Mul Daya: another card I didn't know about before this thread. Rowen was a pet card way back when and this thing has synergy with both Rofellos and Sylvan Library. Plainly a good addition.
Gaea's Liege: haven't drawn it yet but it looks like it has potential. Thanks DA.
Sundering Titan: more land screw, thank you Sporkcore.
Btw, if you are reading this, I chose not to run the Bees for exactly the reason you gave; they die constantly at 0/1 toughness and require too much of an investment. Think of it in terms of long term expenditure. I can pay 5 for a Kodama of the North tree that will deal 30 points of damage over 5 turns or I can pay 33 to do the same amount of damage with a Bee, albeit in less turns. It just seems like a case of insufficient returns on the mana invested.
I'm not sure if I missed anything but here is the full deck list as of 12/11/09.
GeneralRofellos
CreaturesDeranged Hermit
Thornling
Jedat Ojanen of Efavra
Rushwood Elemental
Quagnoth (if I haven't said so before, this card has been consistently amazing)
Terra Stomper
Multani, Maro-Sorceror
Thorn Elemental
Blastoderm
Silvos, Rogue Elemental
Arashi, the Sky Asunder
Kodama of the North Tree
Primalcrux
Rampaging Baloths
Ravenous Baloth
Tracker
Krosan Tusker
Masticore
Verdant Force
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
Genesis
Indrik Stomphowler
Woodfall Primus (MVP and default Natural Order target)
Acidic Slime
Eternal Witness
Oracle of Mul Daya
Mold Shambler
Cloudthresher
Gaea's Liege
Sundering Titan
OtherBerserk
Umezawa's Jitte
Lightning Greaves
Dense Foliage
Gaea's Embrace
Blanchwood Armor
Wear Away
Krosan Grip
Naturalize
Gleeful Sabotage
Seal of Primordium
Creeping Mold
Plow Under
Primal Command
Natural Order
Phyrexian Processor
Tooth and Nail
Survival of the Fittest
Greater Good
Staff of Domination
Tornado
Helm of Possession
Dense Foliage
Sylvan Library
Saproling Burst
Land38 Forest
Wooded Foothills
Windswept Heath
Verdant Catacombs
Misty Rainforest
Strip Mine
Dust Bowl
Wasteland
My, this is really quite a novel. If there is ever an EDH Encyclopedia thread (not a bad idea at all, if you ask me), hopefully this thread will serve as a resource on Rofellos.
If you're just looking for CliffsNotes on changes and suggestions for what to avoid, here they are as promised
Reductions- Autumn Willow
- Serrated Arrows
- Baloth Woodcrasher
- Rhox
- Darksteel Colossus
- Citanul Centaurs
- Thelonite Druid
- Thelonite Hermit
- Snake Basket
- Overrrun (huge mistake #1)
- Man lands and Cradle
- Call of the Herd
- Troll Ascetic
- Razormane Masticore
- Beastmaster Ascension
- Rancor (huge mistake #2)
- Verdant Embrace
Additions+ Woodfall Primus (now the proud title holder of Best Fatty Ever Printed™)
+ Helm of Possession
+ Tornado
+ Dense Foliage
+ Staff of Domination
+ Gleeful Sabotage
+ Acidic Slime
+ Indrik Stomphowler
+ Mold Shambler
+ Eternal Witness
+ Cloudthresher
+ Oracle of Mul Daya
+ Gaea's Liege
+ Sundering Titan
+ Genesis
+ Survival of the Fittest
+ Forests
