honestabe
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How many more Unicorns must die???
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« on: December 13, 2009, 05:37:06 pm » |
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Growing tired of Tezz Control, I've been looking for something else to play. For the sake of shits and giggles, I started fooling around with TPS, and although it was VERY good against most of the feild, it bent over hard to Jesters Cap, and Sadistic Sacrament. I began wondering if there was a type of Storm deck that could still combo out after getting Capped or Sacramented.
Enter GWSx
I'm not sure how I even came across the deck, but I remembered it sounding fun, so I looked up a deck, made it and began testing, and the results have been great.
Here's the list I've been running
3 Underground Sea 2 Swamp 2 Island 4 Polluted Delta 1 Bloodstained Mire 1 Flooded Strand 4 Dark Confidant 1 Yawgmoths Will 1 Windfall 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Timetwister 1 Time Walk 1 Thoughtsieze 4 Duress 4 Tendrils Of Agony 1 Sol Ring 2 Sensei's Divining Top 1 Repeal 1 Ponder 1 Necropotence 1 Rebuild 1 Mystical Tutor 5 Mox 1 Lotus Petal 1 Mana Crypt 1 Hurkyls Recall 4 Dark Ritual 1 Chain of Vapor 3 Cabal Ritual 1 Brainstorm 1 Black Lotus 1 Ancestral Recall 2 Night's Whisper 1 Demonic Tutor
Sideboard 1 Tundra 1 Scrubland 1 Rebuild 1 Hurkyls recall 3 Yixlid Jailer 2 Extirpate 3 Massacre 3 Orim's Chant
It's amazing to play this deck. Most of the time, you win simply by getting a Confidant in there, bashing face for a bit, and then just playing out your hand for 6-8 storm, and thats usually all it takes. Bargain is definitly not needed.
What I'd like to critque: -I'd like to see imperial seal, or grim tutor in there (Seal seems better), and i don't know what to cut. -Also, Windfall really isn't too hot, and im thinking about splashing red and using wheel of fortune instead. The dilema here is 1) splashing red makes my mana base more vulnerable to strip effects, and 2) Though Wheel of fortune is obviously good, it might not even be needed, as so many times you can pull out a victory without even casting a "Draw 7" - Night's Whisper is really, really good in this deck, and I'd like to be able to fit 1 more in.
Also, the SB seems a little weak. Maybe cut 1 massacre for 1 Infest... Not sure
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EnialisLiadon
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Posts: 379
I like cake.
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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2009, 06:46:26 pm » |
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I would think that Demonic Consultation would be amazing in this deck.
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vassago
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« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2009, 07:02:00 pm » |
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I would think that Demonic Consultation would be amazing in this deck.
Consult is amazing in this deck. Check out soly's list form gencon, I think he made a report so it should be easy to find. I would really suggest -2 nights whisper for i seal and consult.
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.... "OMGWTFElephantOnMyFace".
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shroomy2dope
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« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2009, 11:18:02 pm » |
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In a deck that runs 2 dozen one ofs i think consultation would be gut-wrenchingly-horrible.
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honestabe
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How many more Unicorns must die???
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« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2009, 11:56:45 pm » |
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In a deck that runs 2 dozen one ofs i think consultation would be gut-wrenchingly-horrible.
If im correct, it allows you to use your tutors to fuel storm, and just consult for tendrils
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As far as I can tell, the entire Vintage community is based on absolute statements
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personalbackfire
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2009, 09:55:29 am » |
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In a deck that runs 2 dozen one ofs i think consultation would be gut-wrenchingly-horrible.
If im correct, it allows you to use your tutors to fuel storm, and just consult for tendrils In my experience with the card you are mostly consulting for Duress, a Ritual, Tendrils or a Bob, all of which are 3 or 4 ofs. Consult is amazing in this deck and it is one of the most efficient tutors in general.
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Duncan
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2009, 03:04:10 pm » |
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I just split the finals of a 42 man tournament with GWSx yesterday: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39465.msg547648;boardseen#newExpect a report later this week. It's a very viable deck and I've been running it with succes for several times over the past 2 years now. For a long time I've been considering writing a primer to share my insights, and this might push me over the edge.
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"Good things may come to those who wait, but they are merely leftovers from great things that come to those who act.”
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swawagon
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Posts: 196
Shawn Brook Williams
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2009, 03:36:55 pm » |
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Off the first list mine runs: -1 top, -1 Cabal Ritual, -1 Windfall, -1 Tendrils, +1 Mind's Desire, +2 Night's Whisper, +1 Demonic Consultation
DC and Whisper are awesome. Desire may seem scary off Bob, but it's not really a big deal. The rest of the deck has such a low cc. Desire just a huge bomb.
Fun deck, ain't it!!
If Sadistic Sacrament is as big as it may seem, perhaps 4 Tendrils is necessary.
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Team ICEHOLE
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Killane
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I am become Death, the destroyer of Worlds
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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2009, 03:54:20 pm » |
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I just split the finals of a 42 man tournament with GWSx yesterday: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39465.msg547648;boardseen#newExpect a report later this week. It's a very viable deck and I've been running it with succes for several times over the past 2 years now. For a long time I've been considering writing a primer to share my insights, and this might push me over the edge. I think a primer on this deck woudl be a very interesting read and highly worthwhile - hopefully you'll write it! Desire seems like it belongs in this list. Desite dissynergy with Bob, it's the mad nuts powerful, espcially vs Drains which we are oh so infested with ATM.
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DCI Rules Advisor _____________________________ _____ Are you playing The Game?
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honestabe
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Posts: 1113
How many more Unicorns must die???
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« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2009, 04:13:12 pm » |
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@ Duncan: please do write a primer  @ Everyone else: I added a desire, seal and consultation. Here's what it looks like now Land 13: 3 Underground Sea 2 Island 2 Swamp 4 Polluted Delta 1 Flooded Strand 1 Bloostained Mire Instants 16: 1 Vamp 1 Rebuild 1 Mystical 1 Hurkyls 4 Dark Ritual 1 Chain of Vapor 3 Cabal Ritual 1 Brainstorm 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Demonic Consultation 1 Ad Nauseum Sorceries 16: 1 Yawgmoths Will 1 Time Walk 1 Timetwister 1 Thoughtseize 4 Tendrils of Agony 1 Ponder 4 Duress 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Imperial Seal 1 Minds Desire Creatures 4: 4 Dark Confidant Enchantments 1: 1 Necropotence Artifacts 10: 5 Mox 1 Black Lotus 1 Sol Ring 1 Senseis Top 1 Mana Crypt 1 Lotus Petal Side 15: 1 Rebuild 1 Hurkyls 3 Xantid Swarm 1 Tropical island 1 Bayou 3 Massacre 2 Extirpate 3 Yixlid Jailer I'd still like to fit in 2 Night's Whisper, but I'm not sure if it's worth cutting anything for...
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As far as I can tell, the entire Vintage community is based on absolute statements
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Duncan
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« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2009, 03:06:05 am » |
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"Good things may come to those who wait, but they are merely leftovers from great things that come to those who act.”
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Odd mutation
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« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2009, 03:40:43 pm » |
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Now finish the primer...  Seriously, I would appreciate it a lot! Robrecht
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breed
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« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2009, 06:28:15 pm » |
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Now finish the primer...  Seriously, I would appreciate it a lot! Robrecht +1000 I hope you will write this primer. I'm quite sure it will be usefull for all players that want to play this really good deck.
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honestabe
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Posts: 1113
How many more Unicorns must die???
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« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2010, 01:17:42 am » |
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I played this deck at Monday Night Vintage, and went an unspectacular 2-2. However, it was my first time playing it outside of MWS testing, and I was running a rough version. Despite the mediocre results, the deck just feels good, and I can tell it has potential. I definitly will continue with this deck. Here's my latest version after Monday night's testing
Land 13 3 Underground Sea 2 Island 1 Swamp 1 Bayou 4 Polluted Delta 1 Misty Rainforest 1 Verdant Catacombs
Sorceries 16 4 Tendrills 1 Imperial Seal 1 Ponder 1 Mind's Desire 4 Duress 1 Thoughseize 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Time Walk 1 Timetwister 1 Yawg's Will
Creatures 4 4 Dark Confidant
Enchantments 1 1 Necropotence
Artifacts 13 5 Mox 1 Mana Vault 1 Mana Crypt 1 Black Lotus 1 Lotus Petal 1 Time Vault 1 Voltaic Key 1 Sol Ring 1 Sensei's Divining Top
Instants 14 4 Dark Ritual 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Brainstorm 3 Cabal Ritual 1 Chain of Vapor 1 Hurkyls Recall 1 Rebuild 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor
Sideboard: 1 Tropical Island 3 Xantid Swarm 2 Sadistic Sacrament 1 Yixlid Jailer 2 Tormods Crypt 1 Relic of Progenitus 1 Hurkyls Recall 1 Rebuild 3 Massacre
First of all, this deck currently is 61 cards, I know this. I will continue to test until I feel like I find a card that I can cut to get it down to 60
What I really like about this deck is its resilience. This allows it to do things that TPS can't. Specifically vault/key and Sadistic Sacrament. Being a very resiliant deck that doesn't need to win in the same broken way other storm decks do, we can manage to sneak vault/key into the deck. Also, voltaic key has small synergies with Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Sol Ring, and Sensei's Top.
Sadistic Sacrament is a card that personally, I am not a fan of. Too many times, it involves the player putting too much time and resources into resolving a sacrament that ultimately, doesn't do too much. However, GWSx's worst matchup is other Tendrills decks, which a resolved sacrament hoses. Combine this with the tempo boost/card advantage given by confidants to undo the losses created by trying to resolve a sacrament, and this deck becomes possibly the best deck to run Sacrament in.
My last note is that I cut Demonic Consultation for Mana Vault. Consultation has been underwhelming in testing, and Mana Vault makes playing Mind's Desire a LOT easier, which in a New England Mana Drain meta, is a far more important spell than consultation
PS. Xantid Swarm has been awesome for me. He lets you easily win through remoras (which all the cool kids have in their tezz sideboard)
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« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 11:21:32 am by honestabe »
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As far as I can tell, the entire Vintage community is based on absolute statements
-Chris Pikula
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Gandalf_The_White_1
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« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2010, 02:02:45 am » |
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I don't think cutting Demonic Consultation is a good idea, because it is one of the most versatile cards in the deck. It can safely get Confidant, Ritual, Duress, or Tendrils for B at instant speed--how is that underwhelming? The card functions as either draw, acceleration, disruption, or kill.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't play Mana Vault, but there are a few cards in your list that I think could go before Consultation--for example, the 4th Tendrils or 3rd Cabal Ritual, since Consultation is capable of functioning as both.
Demonic Consultation is incredibly strong. I've won A LOT of games by casting something like, Duress, Ritual, Consult-->Ritual, Will, Ritual, Ritual, Duress Consult-->Tendrils.
As an unrelated note, given all the artifacts you are running, I would definitely want to run Tolarian Academy to help support Mind's Desire.
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« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 02:06:37 am by Gandalf_The_White_1 »
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We have rather cyclic discussion, and I fully believe that someone so inclined could create a rather accurate computer program which could do a fine job impersonating any of us.
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honestabe
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Posts: 1113
How many more Unicorns must die???
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« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2010, 10:49:37 am » |
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I'm going to test cutting an underground for a tolarian
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As far as I can tell, the entire Vintage community is based on absolute statements
-Chris Pikula
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Doomsday
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« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2010, 11:06:14 am » |
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Also Misty Rainforest is strictly better than Flooded Strand for you. And Demonic Consultation is ridiculously good.
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Unrestrict: Burning Wish, Ponder, Flash, Gush
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honestabe
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How many more Unicorns must die???
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« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2010, 11:23:25 am » |
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Also Misty Rainforest is strictly better than Flooded Strand for you. And Demonic Consultation is ridiculously good.
Made strand a Rainforest and made Marsh Flats a Verdant Catacombs. Good call.
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As far as I can tell, the entire Vintage community is based on absolute statements
-Chris Pikula
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Doomsday
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« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2010, 11:50:07 am » |
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Also Misty Rainforest is strictly better than Flooded Strand for you. And Demonic Consultation is ridiculously good.
Made strand a Rainforest and made Marsh Flats a Verdant Catacombs. Good call. Cool. If you don't have the Catacombs, I think you can run whichever black fetch you want as #6 because you're not running any Tropical Islands.
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Unrestrict: Burning Wish, Ponder, Flash, Gush
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M.Solymossy
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Sphinx of The Steel Wind
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« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2010, 12:20:50 pm » |
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HOW DID I, OF ALL PEOPLE, MISS THIS THREAD??? As the primary designer, I have tons of resources you might want to read before I make any comments: Gencon: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38618.msg536529#msg536529 This event didn't go so well, but it's got a pretty good list nonetheless. ICBM Open 7th Place (Won an Emerald): http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1096&highlight=7#place7 (Decklist, but no report) Astro City 1st place: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37765.msg525545#msg525545 Xtreme Games 1st place:http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37590.msg523106#msg523106 The Original Discussion of GWSx : http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35930.0Duncan Keijzer has a ton of resources as well. As for the deck: The Manabase should definitely look like this: 3 Underground Sea 1 Badlands 1 Island 1 Swamp 4 Polluted Delta 1 Bloodstained Mire 1 Scalding Tarn The reason for Scalding Tarn is it finds both your duals as well as a basic Island. It replaces Flooded Strand, which can't find your Badlands. Play Wheel of Fortune. That card alone is serious gasoline. The Sideboard needs to start like this: 1 Bayou 3 Xantid Swarm Demonic Consultation is a MUST. It's one of my favorite cards in the deck. It allows you to do the Double Tendrils play much more frequently, get extra duresses, and rituals. I win with this card quite frequently. It opens up so many lines of play! Sadistic Sacrament is what the deck wanted to be able to beat other Tendrils decks. I have done so many things to try and bridge that gap, including running Ethersworn Cannonists with Cabal Therapy! I like that Duncan maindecked it, but in my metagame (a ton of aggro) it's not nearly as good as it was. Oath is a serious problem, and they'll expect Sadistic Sacrament so they will bring in extra creatures. Dark Confidant is a real liability in that matchup. I would just board in Xantids, and try to race their enchantments. This is the deck I'd run this weekend if I were to play: 3 Underground Sea 1 Badlands 1 Island 1 Swamp 4 Polluted Delta 1 Bloodstained Mire 1 Scalding Tarn 5 Moxen 1 Lotus 1 Lotus Petal 1 Sol Ring 1 Mana Crypt 4 Dark Ritual 3 Cabal Ritual 1 Necropotence 1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Timetwister 1 Time Walk 1 Wheel of Fortune 4 Dark Confidant 1 Brainstorm 1 Ponder 1 AD NASEUM (this card is SERIOUS gasoline in this deck... remember it's instant, and you can endstep it) 1 Minds Desire 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Sensei's Divining Top 3 Tendrils of Agony (Sadistic Sacrament is a threat, sadly) 1 Rebuild 2 Chain of Vapor 1 Hurkyls Recall 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Demonic Consultation 1 Imperial Seal 4 Duress 1 Thoughtseize ------------------------------------------------- 1 Bayou 3 Xantid Swarm 3 Sadistic Sacrament 1 Island 1 Rebuild 1 Hurkyl's Recall 2 Infest 2 Planar Void 1 Extirpate
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« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 12:28:42 pm by M.Solymossy »
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~Team Meandeck~
Vintage will continue to be awful until Time Vault is banned from existance.
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honestabe
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How many more Unicorns must die???
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« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2010, 01:03:52 pm » |
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Also Misty Rainforest is strictly better than Flooded Strand for you. And Demonic Consultation is ridiculously good.
Made strand a Rainforest and made Marsh Flats a Verdant Catacombs. Good call. Cool. If you don't have the Catacombs, I think you can run whichever black fetch you want as #6 because you're not running any Tropical Islands. I am in the board HOW DID I, OF ALL PEOPLE, MISS THIS THREAD??? As the primary designer, I have tons of resources you might want to read before I make any comments: Gencon: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38618.msg536529#msg536529 This event didn't go so well, but it's got a pretty good list nonetheless. ICBM Open 7th Place (Won an Emerald): http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1096&highlight=7#place7 (Decklist, but no report) Astro City 1st place: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37765.msg525545#msg525545 Xtreme Games 1st place:http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37590.msg523106#msg523106 The Original Discussion of GWSx : http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35930.0Duncan Keijzer has a ton of resources as well. As for the deck: The Manabase should definitely look like this: 3 Underground Sea 1 Badlands 1 Island 1 Swamp 4 Polluted Delta 1 Bloodstained Mire 1 Scalding Tarn The reason for Scalding Tarn is it finds both your duals as well as a basic Island. It replaces Flooded Strand, which can't find your Badlands. Play Wheel of Fortune. That card alone is serious gasoline. The Sideboard needs to start like this: 1 Bayou 3 Xantid Swarm Demonic Consultation is a MUST. It's one of my favorite cards in the deck. It allows you to do the Double Tendrils play much more frequently, get extra duresses, and rituals. I win with this card quite frequently. It opens up so many lines of play! Sadistic Sacrament is what the deck wanted to be able to beat other Tendrils decks. I have done so many things to try and bridge that gap, including running Ethersworn Cannonists with Cabal Therapy! I like that Duncan maindecked it, but in my metagame (a ton of aggro) it's not nearly as good as it was. Oath is a serious problem, and they'll expect Sadistic Sacrament so they will bring in extra creatures. Dark Confidant is a real liability in that matchup. I would just board in Xantids, and try to race their enchantments. This is the deck I'd run this weekend if I were to play: 3 Underground Sea 1 Badlands 1 Island 1 Swamp 4 Polluted Delta 1 Bloodstained Mire 1 Scalding Tarn 5 Moxen 1 Lotus 1 Lotus Petal 1 Sol Ring 1 Mana Crypt 4 Dark Ritual 3 Cabal Ritual 1 Necropotence 1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Timetwister 1 Time Walk 1 Wheel of Fortune 4 Dark Confidant 1 Brainstorm 1 Ponder 1 AD NASEUM (this card is SERIOUS gasoline in this deck... remember it's instant, and you can endstep it) 1 Minds Desire 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Sensei's Divining Top 3 Tendrils of Agony (Sadistic Sacrament is a threat, sadly) 1 Rebuild 2 Chain of Vapor 1 Hurkyls Recall 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Demonic Consultation 1 Imperial Seal 4 Duress 1 Thoughtseize ------------------------------------------------- 1 Bayou 3 Xantid Swarm 3 Sadistic Sacrament 1 Island 1 Rebuild 1 Hurkyl's Recall 2 Infest 2 Planar Void 1 Extirpate I tried Ad Nauseum, and as much as I love it, I see it getting countered too many times. I think I've only resolved it once, only to get killed by flipping the only 6cc card in my deck. The deck isn't designed to abuse it during our turn, so it's really only useful at EOT, in which case, I usually end up sinking a ritual into it, only to get it drained/forced. It's the nuts if it resolves, but that just doesn't happen enough I didn't play wheel for fear of mana screw. Does running 4 colors ever screw you? I will try the red splash. I also agree with Xazntid Swarm. It is the ABSOLUTE best tool vs controll. I've never lost a game in which it resolved. He even wins through Remora. Maybe I will cut a tendrils for Wheel of Fortune. That way, if they take my tendrils, I can still vault/key them
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As far as I can tell, the entire Vintage community is based on absolute statements
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M.Solymossy
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Sphinx of The Steel Wind
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« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2010, 03:07:28 pm » |
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I tried Ad Nauseum, and as much as I love it, I see it getting countered too many times. I think I've only resolved it once, only to get killed by flipping the only 6cc card in my deck. The deck isn't designed to abuse it during our turn, so it's really only useful at EOT, in which case, I usually end up sinking a ritual into it, only to get it drained/forced. It's the nuts if it resolves, but that just doesn't happen enough
I didn't play wheel for fear of mana screw. Does running 4 colors ever screw you? I will try the red splash.
I also agree with Xantid Swarm. It is the ABSOLUTE best tool vs controll. I've never lost a game in which it resolved. He even wins through Remora.
Maybe I will cut a tendrils for Wheel of Fortune. That way, if they take my tendrils, I can still vault/key them
I really didn't mind the 4 colors. Very rarely will you actually have all 4 in. Most decks you have Xantid Swarm in against, don't play mana denial. I wouldn't bother with Key/Vault. It's not needed in this deck for a plethora of reasons. This deck is storm based. You don't have any real way to resolve key-vault, and you'll realize quickly that most turns you try to set up key vault, you could have more easily set up a storm chain anyway. Ad Naseum is always a spell I'm happy to see. You run 7 Ritual effects. Most of the time when you resolve that spell with B open, you will just kill them. It's Dark Confidant on steroids. Besides, I've never had a problem with it being countered. I don't mean that I never get the card countered, but casting Ad Naseum and having it countered is usually good for you, because it opens up your next turn or if you mainphase it, the rest of your turn. GWSx is a deck designed to use your opponents counterspells against them. You don't win flashy on turn 1 very often, but you do just squeeze the breath out of them little by little and then kill them in an almost unstoppable way, by playing a bunch of rituals, and then playing bombs into their counterspells. If you're not comfortable getting your own spells countered, then you need to rethink your position on the deck. And remember, every time confidant gets to turn sideways, it's -1 storm count. That can be huge. Tutoring for Time Walk is a really good play if you have a confidant or two out, because it's -x storm, and +x cards. This deck is all about winning small. I should know, I'm the original designer 
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~Team Meandeck~
Vintage will continue to be awful until Time Vault is banned from existance.
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honestabe
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How many more Unicorns must die???
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« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2010, 05:11:05 pm » |
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I tried Ad Nauseum, and as much as I love it, I see it getting countered too many times. I think I've only resolved it once, only to get killed by flipping the only 6cc card in my deck. The deck isn't designed to abuse it during our turn, so it's really only useful at EOT, in which case, I usually end up sinking a ritual into it, only to get it drained/forced. It's the nuts if it resolves, but that just doesn't happen enough
I didn't play wheel for fear of mana screw. Does running 4 colors ever screw you? I will try the red splash.
I also agree with Xantid Swarm. It is the ABSOLUTE best tool vs controll. I've never lost a game in which it resolved. He even wins through Remora.
Maybe I will cut a tendrils for Wheel of Fortune. That way, if they take my tendrils, I can still vault/key them
I really didn't mind the 4 colors. Very rarely will you actually have all 4 in. Most decks you have Xantid Swarm in against, don't play mana denial. I wouldn't bother with Key/Vault. It's not needed in this deck for a plethora of reasons. This deck is storm based. You don't have any real way to resolve key-vault, and you'll realize quickly that most turns you try to set up key vault, you could have more easily set up a storm chain anyway. Ad Naseum is always a spell I'm happy to see. You run 7 Ritual effects. Most of the time when you resolve that spell with B open, you will just kill them. It's Dark Confidant on steroids. Besides, I've never had a problem with it being countered. I don't mean that I never get the card countered, but casting Ad Naseum and having it countered is usually good for you, because it opens up your next turn or if you mainphase it, the rest of your turn. GWSx is a deck designed to use your opponents counterspells against them. You don't win flashy on turn 1 very often, but you do just squeeze the breath out of them little by little and then kill them in an almost unstoppable way, by playing a bunch of rituals, and then playing bombs into their counterspells. If you're not comfortable getting your own spells countered, then you need to rethink your position on the deck. And remember, every time confidant gets to turn sideways, it's -1 storm count. That can be huge. Tutoring for Time Walk is a really good play if you have a confidant or two out, because it's -x storm, and +x cards. This deck is all about winning small. I should know, I'm the original designer  It's not that I'm not comfortable getting my stuff countered, I sometimes pray my spells get countered just to up the storm. I just don't like sinking a ritual or 2 into a spell that's best played during my opponent's turn, because if it gets countered then, its a blowout, acting like an expensive duress. Tutoring for time walk is one of my favorite plays I'll continue to test, but as of now, I like vault/key, but understand why you don't play it. I'll update this after furthur testing
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As far as I can tell, the entire Vintage community is based on absolute statements
-Chris Pikula
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Gandalf_The_White_1
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« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2010, 08:36:57 pm » |
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I tried Ad Nauseum, and as much as I love it, I see it getting countered too many times. I think I've only resolved it once, only to get killed by flipping the only 6cc card in my deck. The deck isn't designed to abuse it during our turn, so it's really only useful at EOT, in which case, I usually end up sinking a ritual into it, only to get it drained/forced. It's the nuts if it resolves, but that just doesn't happen enough
Your anecdote is unfortunate, but does not show that Ad Naus is bad. With Desire and Tendrils being the only other high casting cost cards in the deck, Ad Naus is actually less dangerous than in most ANT builds which run 4x Ad Naus+3 Tendrils. Your argument against it getting countered is weak, because the same argument could be applied to Necropotence: it usually requires the investment of a Ritual and is useless if it gets countered. Nevertheless, I doubt anyone would argue against including Necro in this deck. Both Necro and Ad Naus, at the cost of life, draw you a bunch of cards, allowing you to win the game. Ad Naus is slightly more risky, but it also gives you the cards immediately, which can be important, and including it adds another powerful bomb to the deck.
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We have rather cyclic discussion, and I fully believe that someone so inclined could create a rather accurate computer program which could do a fine job impersonating any of us.
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Duncan
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Posts: 312
Team R&D
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« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2010, 06:40:29 am » |
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HOW DID I, OF ALL PEOPLE, MISS THIS THREAD???
Yeah did you? I interpreted your non-posting as a lack of interest! Duncan Keijzer has a ton of resources as well.
Most of them are linked in my latest report, linked to a few posts above this one. I wouldn't bother with Key/Vault. It's not needed in this deck for a plethora of reasons. This deck is storm based. You don't have any real way to resolve key-vault, and you'll realize quickly that most turns you try to set up key vault, you could have more easily set up a storm chain anyway.
This is not true against Shops. I'm not sure whether to run it, but the ease of winning with it against shops has its advantages.
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« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 06:49:18 am by Duncan »
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"Good things may come to those who wait, but they are merely leftovers from great things that come to those who act.”
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honestabe
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Posts: 1113
How many more Unicorns must die???
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« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2010, 10:18:16 pm » |
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HOW DID I, OF ALL PEOPLE, MISS THIS THREAD???
Yeah did you? I interpreted your non-posting as a lack of interest! Duncan Keijzer has a ton of resources as well.
Most of them are linked in my latest report, linked to a few posts above this one. I wouldn't bother with Key/Vault. It's not needed in this deck for a plethora of reasons. This deck is storm based. You don't have any real way to resolve key-vault, and you'll realize quickly that most turns you try to set up key vault, you could have more easily set up a storm chain anyway.
This is not true against Shops. I'm not sure whether to run it, but the ease of winning with it against shops has its advantages. I've found myself with the ability to get vault/key AND lethal Tendrills in the same turn. It's nice to go for tendrills, watch your stuff get countered, then turn around and vault/key your opponent
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As far as I can tell, the entire Vintage community is based on absolute statements
-Chris Pikula
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M.Solymossy
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Posts: 1982
Sphinx of The Steel Wind
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« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2010, 10:21:27 am » |
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I've found myself with the ability to get vault/key AND lethal Tendrills in the same turn. It's nice to go for tendrills, watch your stuff get countered, then turn around and vault/key your opponent
Why don't you watch your stuff get countered, then turn around and, you know... Tendrils your opponent?
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~Team Meandeck~
Vintage will continue to be awful until Time Vault is banned from existance.
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honestabe
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Posts: 1113
How many more Unicorns must die???
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« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2010, 02:05:58 pm » |
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I've found myself with the ability to get vault/key AND lethal Tendrills in the same turn. It's nice to go for tendrills, watch your stuff get countered, then turn around and vault/key your opponent
Why don't you watch your stuff get countered, then turn around and, you know... Tendrils your opponent? Sometimes, they just have too many counters, or you can't get the storm up enough. Basically, a 2 card combo for  that is essentially a must-counter just seems too good to not include. Also, voltiac key works very well with Sol Ring, Sensei's Top, Mana Crypt, and Mana Vault. Time vault is also a good way to get around an enemy tangle wire. I know you hate how time vault is ruining the format, and I do too, but not liking that time vault is so good is not a reason to exclude it
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As far as I can tell, the entire Vintage community is based on absolute statements
-Chris Pikula
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