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Author Topic: Tutor hate via trap  (Read 1822 times)
dshin
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« on: December 31, 2009, 10:25:36 am »

Decks like Tez or TPS rely on the mechanic of tutoring (Demonic/Vampiric/Mystical Tutor, Tez, Tinker, others).  I think it would be interesting to print cards that specifically hate on this mechanic, more so than Aven Mindcensor does.

Soul Scourge Trap
 {3} {B} {B}
Instant -- Trap
If an opponent cast a spell and searched his or her library this turn, you may pay {B} rather than pay Soul Scourge Trap's mana cost.
Search target opponent's hand and library and exile one card from each.  The opponent shuffles his or her library.  Draw a card.

Exiling from both hand and library ensures that you nail both Demonic Tutor and Vampiric/Mystical Tutor.  The "cast a spell" clause is to mitigate the usability of the card against fetchlands.
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Mr. Fantastic
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« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2010, 02:15:59 pm »

Decks like Tez or TPS rely on the mechanic of tutoring (Demonic/Vampiric/Mystical Tutor, Tez, Tinker, others).  I think it would be interesting to print cards that specifically hate on this mechanic, more so than Aven Mindcensor does.

Soul Scourge Trap
 {3} {B} {B}
Instant -- Trap
If an opponent cast a spell and searched his or her library this turn, you may pay {B} rather than pay Soul Scourge Trap's mana cost.
Search target opponent's hand and library and exile one card from each.  The opponent shuffles his or her library.  Draw a card.

Exiling from both hand and library ensures that you nail both Demonic Tutor and Vampiric/Mystical Tutor.  The "cast a spell" clause is to mitigate the usability of the card against fetchlands.


To the best of my knowledge, this won't actually foil Demonic Tutor due to the active player having priority during his or her main phase; they can play the tutor, pass priority (you can't play your Trap since they haven't searched yet), then tutor resolves and the stack empties.  After the resolution they have priority once more as the active player and can cast the spell they tutored for before you have the chance to respond with your Trap; by the time you can finally cast your Trap, the spell is out of their hand and onto the stack.  (If I'm wrong about how this works, let me apologize in advance; I am not an authority on passing priority).

With that said, this looks like a very good card nonetheless.  In fact, I almost wonder if it might be too good in Legacy as just a hand disruption plus cantrip for {B}, ignoring the cap effect.  You could play it main deck in multiples since almost every non-Dredge deck uses fetches and is going to cast spells every turn for the first the first 5 turns or so.  I think "cast a spell" should read "played an instant or sorcery."
« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 02:22:51 pm by Mr. Fantastic » Logged

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dshin
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« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2010, 02:31:40 pm »

Thanks for the feedback, Mr. Fantastic.  

I was aware of the priority issues with Demonic Tutor as you describe - I guess I'm banking on the fact that players sometimes don't cast their Demonic Tutor target immediately for this card to have its desired effect.  And even if they do cast their DT target immediately, resolving the trap might still be crippling.

I don't expect my first attempts at card-drawing/tutoring hate to work, but I'm hoping the arguments I made in the other thread inspire others to come up with some better alternatives, and that these ideas will eventually reach folks at WotC.  
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Anusien
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« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2010, 10:18:46 am »

This really shouldn't cantrip.
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Wagner
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« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2010, 10:31:43 pm »

This really shouldn't cantrip.

Agreed, it good enough as it is. Duress + Extract for 1 doesn't need to draw.
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jro
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« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2010, 03:27:40 am »

I would love to see how this card as suggested played out in the mirror match.  I would expect total standoff hilarity as both players refuse to cast spells.  As Anusien and Wagner pointed out, Duress (actually Coercion!) + Extract + cantrip should never cost one mana.  I see that you made it get cards from both the hand and the library to fight different forms of tutoring.  I guess you wanted this to be playable for one mana so it could stop Turn 1 shenanigans.  Given those restraints, and because I'm in love with the "Cabal" mechanic, I'd design something like this.

Cabal Extraction
B
Instant
Name a nonland card.  Search target player's graveyard, hand, and library for a card with that name and exile it. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

That's probably undercosted, or more specifically, shouldn't be an instant.  Is there a way to make a card playable as an instant if the opponent did something?  Maybe some text like "If an opponent searched his or her library this turn, you may play ~this~ as though it had flash."  I like the sound of that.

Cabal Extraction
B
Sorcery
If an opponent searched his or her library this turn, you may play Cabal Extraction as though it had flash.
Name a nonland card.  Search target player's graveyard, hand, and library for a card with that name and exile it. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

This card still has the "ineffective against Demonic Tutor" problem, at least as a response.  But unlike the original suggestion, you can still play it pre-emptively as an Extract.  And it does still interact well with top-of-the-library tutors (just making them shuffle is pretty good hate) and with instant speed setup tutors like Intuition or Gifts Ungiven.  (They Gifts for a lock at your end of turn, you let it resolve then cast this to take one of the pieces you gave them in hand.)

I think it's worth noting that this card would make for pretty decent Time Vault hate, as well as general hate against decks that rely on 1-ofs.  I've always thought that what defines Vintage as a format is the strength of its hate, and this card works reliably enough (unlike Extract) that it might affect deckbuilding in Vintage without even seeing play.  How comfortable would you be relying on 2 singletons as win conditions knowing that your opponent could board in 4 of this?  Since non-Vintage formats don't have restricted lists, I think this card is not a threat in those formats, but still potentially useful.
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