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Author Topic: Proper time to use Ninjutsu  (Read 2547 times)
Bera
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« on: December 31, 2009, 02:53:00 pm »

I was wondering what the proper time to use ninjutsu was.

Ninjutsu "cost"  ("Cost" Return an unblocked attacker you control to hand: Put this card onto the battlefield from your hand tapped and attacking.)

Would I use ninjutsu at the end of the blocker step when my opponent passes priority? It was always my understanding that once both players passes priority without doing anything your proceeded to the next part of the turn which lead me to believe that ninjutsu happened at the beginning of the damage step, however, the 2010 rules change removed that possibility.

One more question regarding the mechanic:

I have my opponent's tarmogoyf under my control through a control magic effect, I attack with goyf and they don't block. If I were to ninjutsu the goyf, who's hand would it return to? The way Ninjutsu is worded makes me think it goes to my hand even though I'm not the owner, something about that seems wrong though.
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« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2009, 04:28:46 pm »

Quote from: Comprehensive Rules
509. Declare Blockers Step

509.1h An attacking creature with one or more creatures declared as blockers for it becomes a blocked creature; one with no creatures declared as blockers for it becomes an unblocked creature. This remains unchanged until the creature is removed from combat, an effect says that it becomes blocked or unblocked, or the combat phase ends, whichever comes first. A creature remains blocked even if all the creatures blocking it are removed from combat.

So, you usually use ninjutsu after blockers are declared. You actually CAN use it after damage is dealt if you want to do so for some reason, but this is not typical because the guy coming into play won't deal damage since damage will have already been dealt.

Also, in order to have the creature coming onto the battlefield do the damage, you would have to do so immediately after your opponent declares blockers (assuming he doesn't respond). Otherwise, if you pass and he passes back, the game will move on to the next step and it will be too late.

Regarding question 2:

Quote from: Comprehensive Rules
400.3. If an object would go to any library, graveyard, or hand other than its owner’s, it goes to its owner’s corresponding zone.

So, the Tarmogoyf would go to your opponent's hand.
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Bera
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« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2009, 04:31:29 pm »

Quote from: Comprehensive Rules
509. Declare Blockers Step

509.1h An attacking creature with one or more creatures declared as blockers for it becomes a blocked creature; one with no creatures declared as blockers for it becomes an unblocked creature. This remains unchanged until the creature is removed from combat, an effect says that it becomes blocked or unblocked, or the combat phase ends, whichever comes first. A creature remains blocked even if all the creatures blocking it are removed from combat.

So, you usually use ninjutsu after blockers are declared. You actually CAN use it after damage is dealt if you want to do so for some reason, but this is not typical because the guy coming into play won't deal damage since damage will have already been dealt.

Also, in order to have the creature coming onto the battlefield do the damage, you would have to do so immediately after your opponent declares blockers (assuming he doesn't respond). Otherwise, if you pass and he passes back, the game will move on to the next step and it will be too late.

Regarding question 2:

Quote from: Comprehensive Rules
400.3. If an object would go to any library, graveyard, or hand other than its owner’s, it goes to its owner’s corresponding zone.

So, the Tarmogoyf would go to your opponent's hand.

Thanks
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« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2009, 05:41:39 pm »

Quote from: Comprehensive Rules
509. Declare Blockers Step

509.1h An attacking creature with one or more creatures declared as blockers for it becomes a blocked creature; one with no creatures declared as blockers for it becomes an unblocked creature. This remains unchanged until the creature is removed from combat, an effect says that it becomes blocked or unblocked, or the combat phase ends, whichever comes first. A creature remains blocked even if all the creatures blocking it are removed from combat.

So, you usually use ninjutsu after blockers are declared. You actually CAN use it after damage is dealt if you want to do so for some reason, but this is not typical because the guy coming into play won't deal damage since damage will have already been dealt.

M10 rules eliminated Damage on the Stack.  So when damage resolves, it resolves, creatures die or live and lifelink happens or not.
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Bera
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« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2009, 06:03:44 pm »

So, if I wanted to have my ninja deal combat damage to my opponent, would I use the ability at the end of the declare blockers step? or beginning of combat damage step?
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« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2009, 06:20:21 pm »

Quote from: Comprehensive Rules
509. Declare Blockers Step

509.1h An attacking creature with one or more creatures declared as blockers for it becomes a blocked creature; one with no creatures declared as blockers for it becomes an unblocked creature. This remains unchanged until the creature is removed from combat, an effect says that it becomes blocked or unblocked, or the combat phase ends, whichever comes first. A creature remains blocked even if all the creatures blocking it are removed from combat.

So, you usually use ninjutsu after blockers are declared. You actually CAN use it after damage is dealt if you want to do so for some reason, but this is not typical because the guy coming into play won't deal damage since damage will have already been dealt.

M10 rules eliminated Damage on the Stack.  So when damage resolves, it resolves, creatures die or live and lifelink happens or not.

Yes, I know damage on the stack has been eliminated. The damage has nothing to do with it; I didn't say anything about "damage on the stack." The point is that if I swing with my Watchwolf, dealing 3 damage, and then want to ninjutsu my Ninja of the Deep Hours into play because I'd rather deal the extra damage than draw the card, I can do that.

So, if I wanted to have my ninja deal combat damage to my opponent, would I use the ability at the end of the declare blockers step? or beginning of combat damage step?

Declare blockers step.
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Rico Suave
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« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2009, 08:02:46 pm »

Quote from: Comprehensive Rules
509. Declare Blockers Step

509.1h An attacking creature with one or more creatures declared as blockers for it becomes a blocked creature; one with no creatures declared as blockers for it becomes an unblocked creature. This remains unchanged until the creature is removed from combat, an effect says that it becomes blocked or unblocked, or the combat phase ends, whichever comes first. A creature remains blocked even if all the creatures blocking it are removed from combat.

So, you usually use ninjutsu after blockers are declared. You actually CAN use it after damage is dealt if you want to do so for some reason, but this is not typical because the guy coming into play won't deal damage since damage will have already been dealt.

M10 rules eliminated Damage on the Stack.  So when damage resolves, it resolves, creatures die or live and lifelink happens or not.

The point he was referring to is that the creature is still an "unblocked creature" at that point, and thus it's a valid ninjutsu target. 

Ninjutsu doesn't say anything about damage. =)
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« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2009, 09:33:30 pm »

Can you respnond with ninjitsu to something?  Like, If I Lightning Bolt your unblocked watchwolf durring declare blockers or second mainphase can you repond with ninjutsu?
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« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2009, 10:05:16 pm »

Quote from: Comprehensive Rules
702.46. Ninjutsu

702.46a Ninjutsu is an activated ability that functions only while the card with ninjutsu is in a player’s hand. “Ninjutsu [cost]” means “[Cost], Reveal this card from your hand, Return an unblocked creature you control to its owner’s hand: Put this card onto the battlefield from your hand tapped and attacking.”

702.46b The card with ninjutsu remains revealed from the time the ability is announced until the ability leaves the stack.

702.46c A ninjutsu ability may be activated only while a creature on the battlefield is unblocked (see rule 509.1h). The creature with ninjutsu is put onto the battlefield unblocked. It will be attacking the same player or planeswalker as the creature that was returned to its owner’s hand.

Yes, ninjutsu-ing in response to Lightning Bolt will work. The Lightning Bolt will be countered on resolution due to having an illegal target.
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Rico Suave
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« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2010, 11:36:00 am »

Can you respnond with ninjitsu to something?  Like, If I Lightning Bolt your unblocked watchwolf durring declare blockers or second mainphase can you repond with ninjutsu?

You cannot Ninjutsu during the second main phase.  At the end of combat step, all creatures are removed from combat and thus aren't considered "attacking" or "unblocked" or anything of the sort. 

This does work during the declare blocker's step, however. 
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« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2010, 01:13:05 pm »

A creature is still both attacking and unblocked (if applicable) during the end of combat step.  Once a creature becomes an attacking creature and once it becomes an unblocked creature, it stays that way until the combat phase ends or some effect removes it from combat.

At the end of combat step, all creatures are removed from combat and thus aren't considered "attacking" or "unblocked" or anything of the sort. 
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Aaron Cutler
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