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Author Topic: Card-draw hate  (Read 4161 times)
dshin
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« on: December 31, 2009, 03:37:18 pm »

Scholars' Exchange
 {W} {W}
Enchantment
Whenever a player would draw a card, each of his or her opponents draws a card instead.

This card would neuter vintage staples like Brainstorm, Ponder, Thirst for Knowledge, Bazaar of Baghdad.  As a bonus, an active Vault/Key no longer becomes an auto-win:  you must either be able to win with your current board/hand position, or you must risk a gambit of attempting to deck your opponent before he draws into an answer.  The extent of that risk could be greater if the appropriate tech is used.
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clayparson
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« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2010, 01:47:53 am »

So at a bare-minimum its WW, opponent skips their draw step, you draw a card. This seems quite good, probably needs to be fixed.
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oneofchaos
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« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2010, 03:29:53 am »

Scholars' Exchange
 {W} {W}
Enchantment
Whenever a player would draw a card, each of his or her opponents draws a card instead.

This card would neuter vintage staples like Brainstorm, Ponder, Thirst for Knowledge, Bazaar of Baghdad.  As a bonus, an active Vault/Key no longer becomes an auto-win:  you must either be able to win with your current board/hand position, or you must risk a gambit of attempting to deck your opponent before he draws into an answer.  The extent of that risk could be greater if the appropriate tech is used.


Make it like chain and have it only apply after the first draw per turn.
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dshin
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« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2010, 03:52:25 am »

Make it like chain and have it only apply after the first draw per turn.

Why?  Doesn't seem as interesting to me then.  I don't think there are any power level issues as is.  You have a card advantage of +2 on your opponent's turn and a card advantage of 0 on your turns.  On average, then, it's equivalent to a WW cantrip.

There might be broken interactions with other cards, but I can't think of anything too wild.
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dshin
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« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2010, 11:21:42 am »

Make it like chain and have it only apply after the first draw per turn.

Why?  Doesn't seem as interesting to me then.  I don't think there are any power level issues as is.  You have a card advantage of +2 on your opponent's turn and a card advantage of 0 on your turns.  On average, then, it's equivalent to a WW cantrip.

There might be broken interactions with other cards, but I can't think of anything too wild.

I suppose the way it is worded doesn't lock the game up, but some reusable bounce would lock the game up paired with this.

What are some examples of reusable bounce?  Anything that would be easier to pull off than a combo with Necropotence?
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Killane
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« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2010, 11:57:58 am »

this is too strong if combo'd with necropotence. i think it needs to cost 1 more. Other than that, i love it. Awesome concept!
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Mr. Fantastic
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« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2010, 01:57:55 pm »

The biggest problem with this card (besides being undercosted at  {W} {W}, imo) is that it doesn't kill the most popular draw engine of UB Tez decks, Dark Confidant.  Bob is good on his own and insane with Sensei, obviously.  So I think it would slow down the VV combo but really wouldn't kill it completely since they'd still have an effective draw step with Vault/Key in play, albeit one with more self destructive variance.

On a side note, it also doesn't affect Ancestral (you can just target your opponent), FoF, Gifts, and the seldom used Jace Beleren.

I don't think it's a bad card, by the way.  I just don't see it being a solution for Time Vault, as you suggested in the other thread.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 01:45:45 am by Mr. Fantastic » Logged

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dshin
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« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2010, 09:19:08 am »

Another try at this concept:

Knowledge Reflection
 {W}
Instant
Until end of turn, whenever a player would draw a card, each of his or her opponents draws a card instead.  This effect does not apply to the first card drawn by a player during the draw phase.

The enchantment version suffers from a few things:

1.  Once in play, nobody would play into it.
2.  Has dangerous brokenness potential when combined with other cards.
3.  Doesn't stop Ancestral Recall.

This new version fixes those things.  The symmetry is still required to prevent a combo with Timetwister/Wheel of Fortune.

Note that #1 and #3 apply to Chains of Mephistopheles as well.  So an instant-version of that could work too.

Something that is worth noting is that while this effect is killer against Ancestral Recall, it is even more killer against Brainstorm!
« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 09:22:00 am by dshin » Logged
Mr. Fantastic
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« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2010, 02:34:23 am »

Something that is worth noting is that while this effect is killer against Ancestral Recall, it is even more killer against Brainstorm!

I think that's exactly why Plagiarize costs  {3} {U} in the first place.  Wink

I don't see this being so unfair in Vintage but at {W}, I think it might be insta-banned in Legacy, which in turn is probably an obstacle to it seeing print at all.  And in Vintage, when it comes to leveling the playing field against blue decks, would this card really be better than Uba mask?  That is the standard for comparison, after all.  It seems to me that Uba is a better conceived hoser of Brainstorm/Gush/Ancestral/take-your-pick in that even though it can be abused with Bazaar, it can't be used by blue decks against one another.  In other words, as an Instant, I'd compare Knowledge Reflection to Red Elemental Blast; it was designed to hose blue but actually Blue decks are the most likely archetype to play it, as a sideboard option against one another.

So basically, the fly in the ointment maligning your attempt to level the playing field has been here since Alpha. What is the solution? I really don't know.  I have a few general notions though, based on what has been effective in the past.  First of all, I think in order for anything to level the playing field against Drain based control decks running instant speed draw effects unavailable to other colors, whatever cards are printed to hate against said draw have to be priced such that they cannot be splashed and merely added to the arsenal of the very decks they are trying to hate.  In other words, I think the price of  {W} is the biggest problem with your new card.  {1} {W}  is also out of the question, imo, while {2} {W} might not see play at all though I think it probably would still be fairly priced for what it has to offer.

 {W} {W} seems pretty good in that a Drain shell couldn't splash it, but are there enough playable white cards in Vintage for a deck in the vein of Parfait to be viable?  In other words, GW Beats couldn't use a 2cc counter since they aren't going to have the mana open and it would go against their general style of play.  I just think the power level available to UB decks in Vintage is so incredibly high that very few hate cards can really make a dent.  In Legacy however, your card becomes a lot more exciting.

I think that a  {W} {W} version of your card would be ideal as an anti-Brainstorm and co. hate card in Legacy, but in order for it to be truly viable, Land Tax would have to be unbanned first in order to open up the possibility of mono or heavy white control as an archetype.  I don't claim to know what repercussions that unbanning would have.  Maybe Mox Diamond would have to be banned in its place? One wonders.

On a side note, I've been fooling around for a while now with an anti-storm WW hate deck and I like that this could potentially counter Ad Nauseum, though I suspect if the storm player ever got to cast their AN, my deck would have already failed in its general hate strategy.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 02:44:08 am by Mr. Fantastic » Logged

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jro
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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2010, 03:47:40 am »

This card is called Shared Fate.
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Mr. Fantastic
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« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2010, 06:37:02 am »

This card is called Shared Fate.

You seem to be missing the point completely.

If you read the discussion that followed the original post, you'd know that the OP already decided an Enchantment would be inferior to an Instant.  Moreover, the card you linked to is—in addition to being completely unplayable at 5cc—blue.  Decks with access to blue mana aren't going to play Uba Mask-lite; they are just going to play their own broken blue draw.  The whole point of this discussion is finding a way to put non-blue decks that don't have access to broken draw on equal footing.

Edit: that came across as a lot harsher sounding then I intended it to.  I'm sorry if I was rude or offensive in some way.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 07:32:40 am by Mr. Fantastic » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2010, 10:19:28 am »

I'm not sure aiming to beat Ancestral Recall is a good way to go about doing things.  Ancestral Recall is dangerously undercosted, and trying ot make something that can keep up with it will probably make the card unprintable.
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jro
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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2010, 05:17:34 pm »

Edit: that came across as a lot harsher sounding then I intended it to.  I'm sorry if I was rude or offensive in some way.
Nah, you're right, I should have read the rest of the thread more closely.  Although, to be fair, I think this is why the forum guidelines suggest keeping a "Current Wording" portion in the top post.  Also, I totally read the original card wrong as it is nothing like Shared Fate.  Shame on me.

I think there might be other ways to hate on card draw besides stealing your opponent's draws.  For instance, what if they still got to draw cards, but they were the crappiest cards in their deck?  (I didn't check the templating on this, but I think it's possible under current rules.)

Bad Study Habits
R
Instant
If an opponent would draw a card this turn, instead you search their library for a card and that opponent puts the card into their hand.  Shuffle any library so searched.

Or, since Traps are in vogue thanks to Zendikar, if they wanted to actually make a relevant hate card against drawing too many cards rather than garbage like  Runeflare Trap:

Bookcase Trap
4BB
Instant
If an opponent drew three or more cards this turn, you may pay {B} rather than pay Bookcase Trap's mana cost.
Target player discards three cards.
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Matt
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« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2010, 10:47:13 am »

The original version is far too strong with anything that lets you skip drawing a card.
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