Strategies against goblins

[sassfactor4]

The speed and mass quantity of creatures has me kind of stumped as to how to sideboard for this if it rises in the meta, or effective strategies regardless.

The obvious solutions in my mind are

Douse (hold out with a superior manabase and swing in with your own beaters)
Damnation\Wrath\Day of Judgement (but how many is enough?)

Probably weaker solutions would include

Fog (delay of game, not really a solution)
Bitterblossom (chump blockers, but not enough of them)
More manlands maindecked (disruptive to your own manabase)

This was the deck I was basing my assumptions on after seeing it at NYSE IV and a similar concoction at Blue Bell Game Day 1 I thought maybe I'd like to not just punt against the matchup.  What am I missing?  Thanks!


7th - Corey Mann
Goblins

1 Stingscourger
1 Warren Weirding
2 Artifact Mutation
4 Goblin Matron
1 Mogg War Marshall
3 Null Rod
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
7 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Taiga
3 Badlands

Sideboard:
2 Warren Weirding
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Yixlid Jailer
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyrostatic Pillar

[Purple Hat]

if you're really concerned about goblins, engineered plague works pretty well vs them and tabernacle at pendrell vale isn't bad

[silvernail]

Engineered Plague, Propaganda, Ensnaring Bridge, Pyroclasm effects etc. There are plenty of things to do against goblins, it just depends on what deck you are playing.

[honestabe]

By the time you get 4 mana up for a wrath of god, or damnation, it's probably too late.

I like pyroclasm, engineered plague, or just tinkering in sphinx

[Killane]

By the time you get 4 mana up for a wrath of god, or damnation, it's probably too late.

I like pyroclasm, engineered plague, or just tinkering in sphinx

Plague gives gobbos fits in Legacy and is castable off dark ritual. sounds like the best choice to me -

[sassfactor4]

I like the combination of Propaganda with mana denial, that seems like a reasonable sideboard in a fish\tezz deck.

[Demonic Attorney]

Obviously what follows only applies to certain kinds of decks; fish, for example, will need to try something else.

If you're prepping for NYSE or some other diverse meta, your best bet is to streamline your offensive gameplan postboard. Seriously, if your Tezzeret, Oath, or Long deck is losing consistently to Goblins, something is wrong. You have full power, the defining restricted cards of the era, the most efficient and powerful win condition in the format, and a one-card combo backup plan in Tinker. They have, at best, minimal ways to disrupt you and an inferior win condition.

If you start bringing in stuff like Damnation, you're playing Goblins' game. You don't want to divert your rersources away from your main gameplan, which is already better than theirs. Also, you're losing sideboard space that could be devoted to more popular, stronger decks. My boarding plan against Goblins, when I expect any, is an extra tutor for Tinker and the same board sweepers I'm using against Fish, like Pyroclasm. Anything beyond that, I think, stands to slow me down enough for their offense to be relevant and wouldn't generalize to other archetypes enough to warrant sideboard space.

[pierce]

start playing combo and race them?

your request also did not specify what deck you are playing. while plague is great, if you don't run swamps, you can't cast it.

there's always Tivadar's Crusade

[honestabe]

. Seriously, if your Tezzeret, Oath, or Long deck is losing consistently to Goblins, something is wrong. You have full power, the defining restricted cards of the era, the most efficient and powerful win condition in the format, and a one-card combo backup plan in Tinker. They have, at best, minimal ways to disrupt you and an inferior win condition.

I agree.  Honestly, with a well placed counter or two (and sometimes without), Tezz can race Gobbies pretty easily

[AmbivalentDuck]

. Seriously, if your Tezzeret, Oath, or Long deck is losing consistently to Goblins, something is wrong. You have full power, the defining restricted cards of the era, the most efficient and powerful win condition in the format, and a one-card combo backup plan in Tinker. They have, at best, minimal ways to disrupt you and an inferior win condition.

I agree.  Honestly, with a well placed counter or two (and sometimes without), Tezz can race Gobbies pretty easily

Good luck countering Bitter Ordeal.  Against Goblins, your goal is to get a win con in hand and combo out ASAP.

I strongly agree with those recommending Engineered Plague.  Enchantments are difficult to deal with and Goblins can't win if it can't prowl or deal 20 damage.  Plague is also both proactive AND reactive.

[Bone]

there's always Tivadar's Crusade

Never had an issue with gobbos in vintage but in legacy I played Tiverdar of Thorn, much better than the crusade

[MEATROCKET]

Engineered Plague - you can even bring it in against Tezz and name Wizard to kill their Bobs!  And Aven Mindcensor! and Balduvian Frostwalker

[sorcutt]

The better question is: are you really worried about goblins showing up in mass numbers at any tournament on the East coast?  Oath has been pretty prevalent on the East coast lately.  Oath slaps goblins around like a little bastard red-headed stepchild.  Goblins can win against Tezz but they are still a sizable underdog.  Once Oath subsides, budget players may start bringing goblin decks out again in greater numbers.  Until then, it will be very difficult for a goblins deck to make the top 8.

[BruiZar]

I think its possible for goblins to win against oath. It has Warren Weirding (black) and Stingscourger (Red) that removes Iona. Also, though vials are very very slow for vintage, they do circumvent the issue of Iona.

[Killane]

I think its possible for goblins to win against oath. It has Warren Weirding (black) and Stingscourger (Red) that removes Iona. Also, though vials are very very slow for vintage, they do circumvent the issue of Iona.

Somehow I don't see getting through Oath's permission suite to resolve these with any degree of regularity. You can't race it - both modern takes on Oath win the turn after the first Oath activation, either through Vroman's combo win or through giant hasty dragons, so they don't even have to worry about Aether Vial. They have twelve permission spells and a faster aggro plan, and they need to worry about exactly three cards (Weirding, StingS, and EarSuad) from your deck. Sure, you might mise a win from time to time, but it's a terrible match-up and Oath is prevalent enough for now that I just don't see Goblins being viable until Oath calms down.

[sassfactor4]

I was looking for general strategies\cards to play against the albeit minor threat of goblins.

At the moment I'm playing BUG fish, which seems to just punt against them, engineered plague and or douse in the sideboard may be worthwhile but I think with the lack of goblins in the meta, its not something I should really be worrying about.  Its just frustrating to know I'll lose in that match-up without some fairly heavy reworking.

[TheBrassMan]

Maybe try Jitte?  Neither of you want Null Rod in this matchup anyway.  One for one removal is a little more exciting against goblins than most aggro, because a lot of their cards are pretty unexciting without help.  Tarmogoyfs go a long way if you're not running them main.  Old Man of the Sea wins creature vs Creature right, and all three of those cards have uses in other matchups. 

If the issue is with them just coming out of the gates too fast, Brass Man actually buys a lot of time.  Strange but true.

[Killane]

Maybe try Jitte?  Neither of you want Null Rod in this matchup anyway.  One for one removal is a little more exciting against goblins than most aggro, because a lot of their cards are pretty unexciting without help.  Tarmogoyfs go a long way if you're not running them main.  Old Man of the Sea wins creature vs Creature right, and all three of those cards have uses in other matchups. 

If the issue is with them just coming out of the gates too fast, Brass Man actually buys a lot of time.  Strange but true.

Jitte is insane vs Legacy goblins, so this sounds like good advice - plus it should be strong in the mirror (killing opposing bobs, etc....) so it wouldn't be a completely dead card in other matchups unlike Plague.

Douse is likely too slow I think - you're paying 5 for by the time you counter once- by which time they should have enough on the board to kill you.

[sassfactor4]

Already have the Jitte's in the sideboard for any aggro matchup, and the Tarms are a maindeck staple.

Basically I see the matchup vs BUG fish being: first game, rush to play null rods and mana disruption, see they are useless against each other, goblins get basic mountains, fish keeps a dual or two, tarm comes out, as do too many goblins.  Game 2, both teams pull null rods, possibly wastelands, fish adds jittes and sowers, fish still loses the race.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I think its possible for goblins to win against oath. It has Warren Weirding (black) and Stingscourger (Red) that removes Iona. Also, though vials are very very slow for vintage, they do circumvent the issue of Iona.

Somehow I don't see getting through Oath's permission suite to resolve these with any degree of regularity. You can't race it - both modern takes on Oath win the turn after the first Oath activation, either through Vroman's combo win or through giant hasty dragons, so they don't even have to worry about Aether Vial. They have twelve permission spells and a faster aggro plan, and they need to worry about exactly three cards (Weirding, StingS, and EarSuad) from your deck. Sure, you might mise a win from time to time, but it's a terrible match-up and Oath is prevalent enough for now that I just don't see Goblins being viable until Oath calms down.

Actually, Iona Oath is one of the MOST winnable matchups.  Post-board, it's 70-80% in our favor.  Oath only runs two real win cons (making Bitter Ordeal especially deadly) and Spell Pierce is useless against Earwigs.  Mono-R and Rg gobs both probably roll over and die.

Stingscourger is useless and Weirding is almost irrelevant in the matchup.  If you're edicting Iona instead of racing her/capping, something is desperately wrong.

[Killane]

I think its possible for goblins to win against oath. It has Warren Weirding (black) and Stingscourger (Red) that removes Iona. Also, though vials are very very slow for vintage, they do circumvent the issue of Iona.

Somehow I don't see getting through Oath's permission suite to resolve these with any degree of regularity. You can't race it - both modern takes on Oath win the turn after the first Oath activation, either through Vroman's combo win or through giant hasty dragons, so they don't even have to worry about Aether Vial. They have twelve permission spells and a faster aggro plan, and they need to worry about exactly three cards (Weirding, StingS, and EarSuad) from your deck. Sure, you might mise a win from time to time, but it's a terrible match-up and Oath is prevalent enough for now that I just don't see Goblins being viable until Oath calms down.

Actually, Iona Oath is one of the MOST winnable matchups.  Post-board, it's 70-80% in our favor.  Oath only runs two real win cons (making Bitter Ordeal especially deadly) and Spell Pierce is useless against Earwigs.  Mono-R and Rg gobs both probably roll over and die.

Stingscourger is useless and Weirding is almost irrelevant in the matchup.  If you're edicting Iona instead of racing her/capping, something is desperately wrong.

Yeah, good points. I wasn't thinking so much of RB vintage goblins or of the fact that Oath is runing pierces instead of drains at this point. that said I do think 70-80% seems like a stretch for Gobbos vs a deck that can win on turn 2 and still packs 4 x FoW and 4 x Thoughseize to deal with your Sqauds.

[Suicideking]

I think its possible for goblins to win against oath. It has Warren Weirding (black) and Stingscourger (Red) that removes Iona. Also, though vials are very very slow for vintage, they do circumvent the issue of Iona.

Somehow I don't see getting through Oath's permission suite to resolve these with any degree of regularity. You can't race it - both modern takes on Oath win the turn after the first Oath activation, either through Vroman's combo win or through giant hasty dragons, so they don't even have to worry about Aether Vial. They have twelve permission spells and a faster aggro plan, and they need to worry about exactly three cards (Weirding, StingS, and EarSuad) from your deck. Sure, you might mise a win from time to time, but it's a terrible match-up and Oath is prevalent enough for now that I just don't see Goblins being viable until Oath calms down.

Actually, Iona Oath is one of the MOST winnable matchups.  Post-board, it's 70-80% in our favor.  Oath only runs two real win cons (making Bitter Ordeal especially deadly) and Spell Pierce is useless against Earwigs.  Mono-R and Rg gobs both probably roll over and die.

Stingscourger is useless and Weirding is almost irrelevant in the matchup.  If you're edicting Iona instead of racing her/capping, something is desperately wrong.

I dont believe for a second that the match is 70-80%  Ive played against earwig squads plenty of times and Ive never lost to it with any oath build.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Yeah, good points. I wasn't thinking so much of RB vintage goblins or of the fact that Oath is runing pierces instead of drains at this point. that said I do think 70-80% seems like a stretch for Gobbos vs a deck that can win on turn 2 and still packs 4 x FoW and 4 x Thoughseize to deal with your Sqauds.

Actually, both decks can win turn 1:

Oath:
Orchard, Oath, Lotus, Walk
Land, Lotus, Vault, Key

Goblins:
Lotus, Bitter Ordeal
Fetch, Crypt, Bitter Ordeal
Petal, Land, Sol Ring, Bitter Ordeal

Turn 2 kills for both decks are obvious from a list of their turn 1 kills.  That said, killing turn 2 with Oath requires Time Walk OR Iona and lots of artifact accel in hand.  4x Thoughtseize is not common at present with Vroman running only 1.

@James King: I've actually played against you with Squads and you kicked my ass.  I expect the same thing would happen against King James Oath with the current build.  That said, Iona Oath runs a much lower number of win cons and therefore has issues with SadSac/Ordeal/Squad.

[BruiZar]

Post oath these are the scenarios you can face.

With iona naming red, you have caps, edicts and 5/5's at your disposal. The caps could rid timevault and time walk after iona is out which would buy some turns.

With iona naming black you have stingscourger and matron. matron is too slow because next turn your opponent will mill and krosan reclame.

Lackey circumvents permission magic, but it just gets blocked by Iona when it's oathed up.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Suicideking is right when claiming that goblins have a hard time against oath. Rather, goblins need to play earwigs and, in my opinion, hand disruption to merely have a shot against oath, meaning that if you play in a field with plenty of oath, your opponents should be playing mainly 1/1's and 5/3's.

So if you play UGB fish, standard fish cards should be good in the match-up and you shouldn't have to make major adjustments. Stifle is good, since they rely on fetches, wastelands and lackey. Getting earwig squad dazed is brutal for the goblin player, but you also risk running into simian spirit guide, so read the game very carefully. The more creatures you play, the harder it gets to connect with lackeys, vandals and prospectors. If you have predators in the board, they are fine to side in, since they are formidable blockers and kill aether vials if you're lucky. Jitte is obviously strong.

If you are trying to decide on whether to play vendilion clique or a three-drop with more than one toughness, add to the equation that it only trades with lackey. Thoughtseize is ok on the play, but less so on the draw (duress should be boarded out). Generally, you want your cards to have a direct impact on the board. Don't pack sowers in the board because of goblins (I'd rather play pygmy hippo or another pitchable grizzly bear. Four mana is a lot to ask for and if they have removal, you probably loose), but do side them in if you've got them.

In short, focus on getting the most out of the resources you already have at hand and the goblin match-up should be quite good.