[New Card Discussion] Lodestone Golem

[Sloth]

A new card from Worldwake was spoiled: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=8731

Lodestone Golem, 4
Artifact Creature - Golem 5/3 (R)
Non-artifact spells cost 1 more to cast.

If Workshop Aggro is a vintage strategy, it just got better by far!

I can't see any other applications, though.

[The Wolf]

This card is huge.  It only makes your opponents spells more expensive, and its the other 5 power guy that these decks always needed.  I can't think of a card that this deck wanted more. 

Its possible this is even good in stax.  13 sphere STAX!! Its disruption with a clock, crazy good. 

[voltron00x]

This card does look tailor-made for Workshop decks.  Kudos to Wizards.

[Phele]

I can't think of anything better that could have happened to Workshop players.

I can't think of anything worse that could have happened to non Workshop players.

This card is ridiciulous!!!

[beder]

IMO, this cannot be true.
It is like a juggernaut, without the weakness - having to attack every turn - and with an effect that is a lot better than thorn of amethyst for workshop player.

That's really too much improvement to be true, especially compared to an existing card that is already a stapple of vintage.

[KrauserKrauser]

I could see it being real especially when you factor in that it does not slow down as much as you think.  Since their Moxen are still free it may slow them down but much less than Sphere or Thorn.  Hands down replaces big Juggs in MUD builds but it's not as big a roadblock since it does nothing to stop them in their mana development.

[Ten-Ten]

IT WILL JUST END UP REPLACING JUGGERNAUT  .:YAWN:.

Please don't use all-caps for a post. Also, please don't make a post which consists of barely a sentence, with no content.

Thanks

Rich

[beder]

I could see it being real especially when you factor in that it does not slow down as much as you think.  Since their Moxen are still free it may slow them down but much less than Sphere or Thorn.  Hands down replaces big Juggs in MUD builds but it's not as big a roadblock since it does nothing to stop them in their mana development.

Well, generally "moxen with sphere or thorn" is not such a big deal. Sure, you need to pay 1 to play it but generally, that's what you do as soon as you can. IMHO, the main disruption of  thorn or sphere is related to those 2 situations :
- preventing you from chaining spells in order to advance your game plan,
- preventing you from reaching the amount of mana you need to cast either a tinker or and artifact removal/bounce.

And this card is nearly as good as thorn or sphere when it comes to disrupting in those 2 situations.

Another point : this effect is totally assymetric, given that it does not impact a single card in a mono brown stax deck (aggro or not) when thorn impacts at least 10-15 other disruptions cards of the Aggro stax deck (or more).
According to me, this card is too huge to be true because it does not only improves aggro stax, it does dramatically improve almost any workshop decks except perhaps the latest ones with dark conf and welder.

A real clock - cause this is a real clock even in vintage....
... that really disrupts - as much as thorn or sphere according to me ...
...  for 4CC without even being legendary...
... hum, still hard to belieive.

[TheBrassMan]

This card is very very good, format altering good.  Archetype defining would be a mild way to put it.

[Gambit]

It's a lock piece and a fast clock. STAX has been waiting for something like this for a while, as stated above, this card in a build that will abuse it will be a one sided sphere, outstanding. This card plus chalice for zero on turn one will be very hard to beat.

[GUnit]

God, I'm never going to be able to afford shops, ever.

This card is bananas, son!

[AmbivalentDuck]

This seems like a perverse joke since it actually boosts the power of Tez (which plays explosive amounts of artifact mana) while making "real" control strategies like Fish and "Keeper" less viable.

[The Atog Lord]

Meh, he can be blocked by walls.


Seriously, one of the difficult things to balance in Stax decks has been having lock components with having a clock. Ray's excellent post from a while back discusses this. This Golem might just be what was needed -- it's certainly going to demand some testing.

[Prospero]

The card may be very good and it may be irrelevant.  If the metagame shapes up to be Oath & Dredge as the top dogs, I don't see how this fundamentally answers that problem for a Shop Aggro deck.  Still, in the right metagame, if this is an actual card, he could be ridiculous.  He's strictly better than Juggernaut.

[voltron00x]

I just think its exciting because this card was clearly designed with Eternal applications in mind, regardless of whether or not it ends up having an impact.  It could also be one of those cards that catches on in the future when the meta is friendlier to the strategies that want such a creature.

[Killane]

This card is nuts. A pseodu-thorn on a stick- and a beefy stick at that.

I'm just glad I can still Rebuild at EOT and can still drop a bunch of moxen for Storm under this guy. It will discourage me from dropping the moxen as quickly vs Stax though, which makes a hard matchup that much harder for us TPS folks.

In other news, control decks are getting tools to help fight the cascade menace in standard. Esper can really abuse this.

But back to a good format.... this seems like the clock Stax needs vs Restricted list.dec (Tezz, TPS). I certainly don;t relish sitting down accross from 13 sphere.dec when 4 of those spheres put me on a 4 turn clock. Bobs may be chump blocking alot more often come Febuary

[Troy_Costisick]

Wow.  Just wow.  We might see the return of MUD now.  This is as big as Thorn of Amethyst in my mind.  I can definately see 13 Sphere shop decks now.  This thing would have been nice during the Gush era, but even now, it'll be great.  Props to wizards for printing another Vintage playable.  RIP Juggernaught.

[Vegeta2711]

Now see guys, this is a card to actually be excited about. Fits right into an established deck, has clear benefits and those benefits are of high enough quality to actually help a deck. He's what Juggernaut always hoped to be after power creep happened.

[Smmenen]

This card does look tailor-made for Workshop decks.  Kudos to Wizards.

Yeah, it's hard to imagine that this card wasn't specifically designed *for* Vintage, or, at least, with Vintage strongly in mind. 

[TheShop]

While this card will be amazing in ShopAggro, I could not help but notice that it will not inhibit the opponent's ability to play artifact mana and play Vault + Key. Adding a Null Rod to this cards would make it a Sphere with legs (more than it already is).

[zeus-online]

Well, what can i say? He looks friggin' awesome!

It's true that the effect is weaker then thorn or sphere...But come on! this guy is huge aswell. Not sure if this will fit into stax, but some workshop aggro-ish deck could surely use him to great effect. I'm not sure juggernaut is completely outmoded though...Afterall, this guy might need a few additional beaters to finish the job.

[A_Outcast]

all i can say is come the pre-release im doing everything i can to pick me up a playset of these bad boys.  i cant beleive this guy is real, this is insane.

[bb-g]

There i've always been a big fan of Workshopdecks , I'm very pleased to see this card printed. It's one of those thingies we shop-players needed to be able to be a real contender again. Wizards: We (vintage players) salute you!

[gamegeek2]

These things are awesome, I'm definitely gonna be aiming to pick up some.

This guy kills two birds with one stone. Auto 4-of in Workshop Aggro, and deserves to be tested out in other Workshop decks.

[God_Campbell]

These are amazing!

Glad wotc is thinking about the eternal formats once and a while.

[beder]

Surely, such a card would be an evidence in workshop aggro.

But i think that this would be even better in a non aggro workshop build, a regular stax build, perhaps even a 5C or a red one.

Right now, those build have 2 disadvantages when compared to today's mono brown or shop aggro :
- they miss an efficent clock and so most of the time need to hard lock the game to win it,
- it is dangerous for them to play with more than 4 spheres and null rod, cause they could be locked themselves under those spheres (with no metal workers).

When comparing this card to thorn or sphere, one has to keep in mind that :
- sure, it does not impact opponents artifacts, such as moxen or vault/key
- BUT it does nearly not impact any cards of your own deck, when thorn or sphere may impact lots of them.  

As a consequence, it can be put in any shop decks (except the darkconf/welder one).

Think of a regular stax deck, that previously had to hard lock you to win with karn or any other win conditions. This deck will now be able to regularly win on turn 5 or 6 turns, even if they only  soft-disrupted you during those turns.
Think of a regular stax deck, that previously may have had some difficulties against aggro, that will pack "main deck" 4 creatures that are pretty difficult to handle on the combat zone - except with tarmo - and that will disrupt opponents's creature casting.

The following shell is an evidence but this is when I wrote it that I really realised what it could mean...

4 Chalices
4 Null Rod

4 Tangle
4 Smokestack

4 Lodestone Golern
4 sphere
1 Trinisphere

4 Shop
4 Wastelands
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian

7-8 lands (Red or brown one)

7 solomoxens
1 Mana Vault

+ 8-10 slots left (Welder, Crucible, Bazaar, DuplicantS - may be pretty good in today's meta- Triskellion, Karn...)

It is almost like playing 9' spheres deck with null rod in it (which was difficult to play in 9 spheres cause shutting down metalworker or exposing yourself to opponent's wastelands).
Except perhaps with oath or another shop deck, I really wouldn't like to face such a monster... And against those decks, I feel like duplicant is a very good answer. It even helps answering most of today's tinker target. And when it comes to inkwell, I think that thanks to this new 5/3 body, a stax deck packing some of the other "nice robots" could even race it or at least gain enough time to stabilize the board position thanks to its other natural tools.

I still have difficulties to imagine that this card is real...

PS : if this is real, Storm decks really need some help. They were already in a bad position, this will not help...

[Neonico]

I really consider this card weaker than Thorn of amethyst for 1 main reason : doesn't delay the moxen against Control/combo decks, and it's a huge problem. You really need to have Chalice of the Void And/or Null rod and/or at least 7 spheres to backup this guy.
That makes it a bad card for 5c stax anyway. Its perhaps better in a Mono Brown or RB stax shell, but certainly not in 5cstax because you allow opponent to develop too much and too easily.

The fact that it's also a beater and hits creatures on the other side is really interesting for us European players, because it's alot better against Noble fish decks.

[nineisnoone]

Comparing it to Thorns misses the point.  You would still want the first 9 spheres even if it did effect Moxen, i.e. it's not an early disruption piece.  It's a finisher that just happens to be disruptive as well. 

There aren't very many Stax cards that finish *within* the scheme of the deck.  The closest I can think of (and I'm probably forgetting some) are Karn and Magus of the Moon.  Magus is tricky to play with Shops and Karn is more situational then you'd like.  Usually, it's just Jugs or a few Trisks or some sort of lock trick.

Lodestone Golem is *functional* the equivalent of Thirst for Knowledge for Stax.  Thirst pushes you towards your end-game condition (card advantage) while strengthening your immediate position (keeping mana open for Mana Drain and being blue for Force of Will).  Golem does the same by dealing damage and squeezing the mana noose. 

[BruiZar]

Lodestone Golem is not the equivalent of thirst for knowledge at all. How can you compare a restrictive and interactive card like Golem to a non restrictive non interactive card advantage card like TFK?

Lodestone Golem is an assymetrical clock in that it becomes progressively better in multiples. 1 lodestone golem pushes cards out of range for 1 turn which translates into 5 damage. 2 lodestone golems pushes cards out of range for 2 turns which translates into 15 damage, 3 lodestone golems pushes cards out of range for 3 turns which translates into 30 damage. Shop players used to have problems with the inevitable rebuild. I believe this is the end for rebuild because hurkylls recall is cheaper and you need to have cheap mass removal to combat the vast amount of spheres available today.

This is the list I would play:

3 Karn Silver Golem
4 Juggernaut
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
3 Sculpting Steel
3 Crucible of Worlds
______________________
4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Razormane Masticore / Duplicant

OR

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Null Brooch

3 Triskelion
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
______________________

1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Rishadan Port / Tower of the Magistrate

[Neonico]

Comparing it to Thorns misses the point.  You would still want the first 9 spheres even if it did effect Moxen, i.e. it's not an early disruption piece.  It's a finisher that just happens to be disruptive as well.  

There aren't very many Stax cards that finish *within* the scheme of the deck.  The closest I can think of (and I'm probably forgetting some) are Karn and Magus of the Moon.  Magus is tricky to play with Shops and Karn is more situational then you'd like.  Usually, it's just Jugs or a few Trisks or some sort of lock trick.

Lodestone Golem is *functional* the equivalent of Thirst for Knowledge for Stax.  Thirst pushes you towards your end-game condition (card advantage) while strengthening your immediate position (keeping mana open for Mana Drain and being blue for Force of Will).  Golem does the same by dealing damage and squeezing the mana noose.  

In the list posted before my post, it replaces thorns, and it's a misstake IMHO.
And stax never needed Spheres 5-8, nor a finisher, nor a sphere that doesn't hit Moxen (aka doesn't help you to gain the board advantage and/or establish the lock).
I would definatly play Chalice of the Void before this guy in Stax, as 5c stax is a BOARD CONTROL strategy, and this guy doesn't fit this really well.

Now, in a MUD list or Mono brown Stax list, and even perhaps in BR stax list, all playing SPheres, thorns and Chalice of the void, i would really consider it instead of Suchis in my MUD list (but acting as Juggernauts 5-8, the sphere effect is a bonus) and instead of thorn in monobrown staw and BR stax (but only because i actually face a Fish HEavy metagame, if the metagame switch again to less fih decks, i would definatly turn back to Thorn of Amethyst in MonoBrown and BR stax, which are better against combo and control combo decks).

@Bruizar :
For me, this guy doesn't help the rebuild problem, as the control/combo players, even if you go Shop mox lodestone golem, will have acces to a very fast rebuild, and will negate the golem effect as soon as he has a mox/vault/Crypt/Sol ring in hand (cost one more, okay, but allow to freely play a mox, and pay the extra mana). That's a nice tool but the main problem is that it need another slowing down element to be trully efficient (Sphere, Thorn, Chalice or rod).

On a side note : Never EVER play Black lotus in MUD decks, it is seriously a bad card in the deck (i know, bababa it's lotus), that can make you loose more games than you'll win with it.
I got a very close list, but i still play MEtalworker, even if i play 3 null rods, and you really need a beater that can hit creatures (Razormane if you play null rods, or triskelion). It's really important in the actual metagame (lots of confidant, creature decks, welder)