elves: sideboarding against workshops

[jovialevil]

...the forum gave me a warning that I should start a new thread instead of replying... but I'll try this first.

I am trying to build a sideboard for this deck.  I looked at the sideboards that people have posted, but they don't feel right to me... for instance, I don't know how valuable the Xantid Swarms would be, as the deck already seems to have pretty good results against slower, controllish decks with counterspells, and I don't think you would ever side them in when trying to deal with TPS decks having Force of Will...

My goal was to load up on cards to try to fix matches against workshops, especially considering that many people may try playing workshop decks now with 9+ sphere effects, potentially many of them lethal.  And I am not particularly keen on running the new 1 mana green "destroy target artifact" spell, as one of the most important artifacts to kill is Chalice at 1.

My current list is:

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger

2 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman

1 Crop Rotation
1 Grapeshot
1 Fastbond

3 Summoner's Pact
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Skullclamp

1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
2 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath

SB: 2 Seeds of Innocence
SB: 1 Gaea's Herald
SB: 1 Viridian Zealot
SB: 1 Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 Forest
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt

...and I've been siding out:
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regal Force
1 Crop Rotation
1 Grapeshot
1 Fastbond
1 Summoner's Pact

  to put in the top 7 cards against workshop decks.  This obviously makes it harder to combo out and win in one turn, but I haven't seen many sweepers (other than the occasional balance) in workshop decks.  Something still feels off, though, and the games are still awkwardly difficult.  Any suggestions?

[sorcutt]

Nature's Claim (the new 1cc artifact/enchantment destruction instant) is a 4x auto inlude for that deck.

[jovialevil]

  Aye, that card (Nature's Claim) would be good for killing Sphere of Resistance or Lodestone Golem, and much better than anything I currently have for killing Tanglewire, but it would be pretty lousy at killing Chalice (1), and that seems to be the absolute biggest threat.  My hope is that many workshop decks will switch from Sphere of Resistance to Thorn of Amethyst instead, but that's still 13 deadly cards against elves... (4 Chalice, 4 Tangle Wire, 4 Lodestone Golem, 1 Trinisphere).

  Given that it can't hurt Chalice, and that's the most deadly effect, more than 2 Nature's Claim seems bad... and I don't know if having any would be better than the same number of Seal of Primordium.

[Killane]

  Aye, that card (Nature's Claim) would be good for killing Sphere of Resistance or Lodestone Golem, and much better than anything I currently have for killing Tanglewire, but it would be pretty lousy at killing Chalice (1), and that seems to be the absolute biggest threat.  My hope is that many workshop decks will switch from Sphere of Resistance to Thorn of Amethyst instead, but that's still 13 deadly cards against elves... (4 Chalice, 4 Tangle Wire, 4 Lodestone Golem, 1 Trinisphere).

  Given that it can't hurt Chalice, and that's the most deadly effect, more than 2 Nature's Claim seems bad... and I don't know if having any would be better than the same number of Seal of Primordium.

At the end of the day, the issue is that Elves is not a great metagame choice right now. I don't think there's much you can do to make shops anything less than a bad matchup and Golem.dec is going to be EVERYWHERE for the next few months, Oath seems like an auto-loss unless you have a god hand since your win is 100% reliant on dudes and you can't cast anything once Iona comes up, so unless you can attack for thier life total through a 7/7 in the one turn you get before they get Key-Vault you're dead, and Tezz and TPS decks are running sweepers as well as counters due to the threat of GWB Fish. And Fish is Fish - I honestly have no idea how that matchup lays but it seems like they have an aweful lot of permission and combo hate to fight through without permission of your own.

I honestly don;t understand how anyone can run this deck through a major tournament. The compliated math just seems like too much round after round, and the deck just seems like it can't do enough. Almost mono-green is very limiting. If you want combo, why not play TPS or ANT (or Oath for that matter, since Oath is a combo deck these days).

If you're going to insist on it, Krosan Grip seems like a fine choice vs Shops right now and has the added benefit of killing Vault in the Tezz match. You running Elves!, so it's not like you'll be hurting for mana, and Grip gets around Chalice at one and all kinds of other crap.

But yes, 4 x Nature's claim still seems like an auto-include- get the grip, grip the chalice, drive through.

[Doomsday]

Matt Elias ran this through a tournament a while back, when I asked about sideboarding advice he suggested:

Sideboard
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Thoughtseize
2x Mindbreak Trap
2x Seal of Primordium
2x Viridian Shaman

Oath - 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Seal
Tezz - 3 Swarm, 1 Thoughtseize
Ichorid - 2 Crypt, 2 Rav Trap
TPS - 2 Mindbreak Trap, 2 Thoughtseize
Workshops - 2 Seal, 2 Shaman

Common cards to side out: Eternal Witness, 2nd Regal Force, Viridian Shaman, 2nd/3rd Symbiote, and Fastbond


If you have any more questions you might consider PMing him in addition to having this thread.

[honestabe]

Matt Elias ran this through a tournament a while back, when I asked about sideboarding advice he suggested:

Sideboard
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Thoughtseize
2x Mindbreak Trap
2x Seal of Primordium
2x Viridian Shaman

Oath - 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Seal
Tezz - 3 Swarm, 1 Thoughtseize
Ichorid - 2 Crypt, 2 Rav Trap
TPS - 2 Mindbreak Trap, 2 Thoughtseize
Workshops - 2 Seal, 2 Shaman

Common cards to side out: Eternal Witness, 2nd Regal Force, Viridian Shaman, 2nd/3rd Symbiote, and Fastbond


If you have any more questions you might consider PMing him in addition to having this thread.

I'd run Oxidizes and Seal of primordiums, to dodge chalices

[Doomsday]

Oxidize costs 1 though, that's what they should be setting Chalice at anyway.  Seal is 2 and Shaman is 3, so that's pretty good Chalice-dodging IMO.

[jovialevil]

At the end of the day, the issue is that Elves is not a great metagame choice right now. I don't think there's much you can do to make shops anything less than a bad matchup and Golem.dec is going to be EVERYWHERE for the next few months, Oath seems like an auto-loss unless you have a god hand since your win is 100% reliant on dudes and you can't cast anything once Iona comes up, so unless you can attack for thier life total through a 7/7 in the one turn you get before they get Key-Vault you're dead, and Tezz and TPS decks are running sweepers as well as counters due to the threat of GWB Fish. And Fish is Fish - I honestly have no idea how that matchup lays but it seems like they have an aweful lot of permission and combo hate to fight through without permission of your own.

  I agree, playing TPS seems like it would give about 3-fold better odds of winning most matches than playing elves... but the difference is that for a 10 proxy tournament, I can put together elves for under a hundred, whereas TPS would be at least 3-fold more (since I haven't played for a few years and, of the expensive cards, only have 4x Force of Will... Bayous are the only dual lands I own).  So my plan is just to optimize the elves deck and just come up with as good a chance as possible.

  And, metagame... the decklists from recent tournaments look like the usual suspects (several Tezz, one oath, one workshops, several fish, several random) show up.  And I don't know how new cards will change that.  Lodestone Golem will make workshops more powerful, and having workshops run more creatures will make oath more powerful, both of which are bad for elves, but maybe an increased number of workshops will lead some oath decks to switch from Iona to Tyrant, which would be less horrible for elves to face.  Who knows?

  My updated deck and sideboard is:

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Regal Force
1 Eternal Witness
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Viridian Shaman

1 Grapeshot
3 Summoner's Pact
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Skullclamp

1 Fastbond
1 Crop Rotation
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
2 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath

SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 Viridian Zealot
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Ravenous Trap

  I tried to put in more answers for oath and workshops, and changed the sideboard land to a bayou so that it can side in along with the duress against combo / counterspell decks without wasteland.  Now I am trying to plan out which cards should actually start in the sideboard, and which should start in the maindeck... the deck / sideboard split is currently tuned for goldfishing, which seems suboptimal in *any* metagame : )  Does anyone have any experience or suggestions regarding putting in duress effects or more enchantment/artifact destruction into the maindeck, and whether, if one were to do that, it is even worthwhile keeping fastbond in the sideboard in case you want to tune the deck just to race?

[pierce]

i playtested this deck for awhile, and I found workshops to be the best matchup. they play things, you attack with small creatures that also produce mana to ignore the sphere effects. I never combo'd vs them, but they can't beat a swarm of attacking elves.

[TheShop]

i playtested this deck for awhile, and I found workshops to be the best matchup. they play things, you attack with small creatures that also produce mana to ignore the sphere effects. I never combo'd vs them, but they can't beat a swarm of attacking elves.

Keeping Balance out of stax has become popular...

I have elves built for my brother to play, what about running a few maundeck duals (you will normally make enough mana) and run some ancient grudges in the board?

[rpf5029]

At the end of the day, the issue is that Elves is not a great metagame choice right now. I don't think there's much you can do to make shops anything less than a bad matchup and Golem.dec is going to be EVERYWHERE for the next few months, Oath seems like an auto-loss unless you have a god hand since your win is 100% reliant on dudes and you can't cast anything once Iona comes up, so unless you can attack for thier life total through a 7/7 in the one turn you get before they get Key-Vault you're dead, and Tezz and TPS decks are running sweepers as well as counters due to the threat of GWB Fish. And Fish is Fish - I honestly have no idea how that matchup lays but it seems like they have an aweful lot of permission and combo hate to fight through without permission of your own.

  I agree, playing TPS seems like it would give about 3-fold better odds of winning most matches than playing elves... but the difference is that for a 10 proxy tournament, I can put together elves for under a hundred, whereas TPS would be at least 3-fold more (since I haven't played for a few years and, of the expensive cards, only have 4x Force of Will... Bayous are the only dual lands I own).  So my plan is just to optimize the elves deck and just come up with as good a chance as possible.

  And, metagame... the decklists from recent tournaments look like the usual suspects (several Tezz, one oath, one workshops, several fish, several random) show up.  And I don't know how new cards will change that.  Lodestone Golem will make workshops more powerful, and having workshops run more creatures will make oath more powerful, both of which are bad for elves, but maybe an increased number of workshops will lead some oath decks to switch from Iona to Tyrant, which would be less horrible for elves to face.  Who knows?

  My updated deck and sideboard is:

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Regal Force
1 Eternal Witness
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Viridian Shaman

1 Grapeshot
3 Summoner's Pact
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Skullclamp

1 Fastbond
1 Crop Rotation
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
2 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath

SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 Viridian Zealot
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Ravenous Trap

  I tried to put in more answers for oath and workshops, and changed the sideboard land to a bayou so that it can side in along with the duress against combo / counterspell decks without wasteland.  Now I am trying to plan out which cards should actually start in the sideboard, and which should start in the maindeck... the deck / sideboard split is currently tuned for goldfishing, which seems suboptimal in *any* metagame : )  Does anyone have any experience or suggestions regarding putting in duress effects or more enchantment/artifact destruction into the maindeck, and whether, if one were to do that, it is even worthwhile keeping fastbond in the sideboard in case you want to tune the deck just to race?

I've been playing Elves! in Vintage for over a year now, and while I've had some success with the deck, there are several match-ups that are just plain frustrating.  In my experience, there really aren't many match-ups that are favorable for Elves!  Tezzeret has their 8 counterspells and 3-4 hand disruption effects, not to mention most utilize Fire / Ice and Darkblast due to the popularity of Dark Confidant.  Time Vault combo can be ridiculously fast and cheap, meaning the CONTROL deck can race us, as well.  

Stax has mana denial and sphere effects to start out.  These don't seem like a big deal, since we play lots of one mana buddies and ALMOST exclusively basic lands, but artifact destruction become expensive with sphere effects, and assembling he mana can be extremely difficult (since we run 13 lands, more than half of which are fetches).  Not to mention the evilness of Trinisphere.  Although it's possible to win through Trinisphere, it's very, VERY difficult to assemble the right pieces before Smokestack locks out the game.  Besides, Powder Keg and Triskellion do wonders to Wrath the board.  And I don't even wanna talk about Balance....

Dredge seems race-able on paper, but all a competent Dredge player needs to do is find a way to get a creature into play and a Cabal therapy in the graveyard, at which point they name Glimpse of Nature and the Elves! player will probably lose if they don't hit a Glimpse on the top deck.  Skullclamp theoretically helps by taking out their bridges, but winning of Skullclamp is usually a dicey and difficult prospect. (Especially in the first two turns).  I'm currently bringing in 9 cards against Dredge, because now that dredge can run Forces out of he sideboard and some run Iona in the main, it has become much more difficult.  This wrecks the chances of comboing out, but if you can hate your opponent completely out of the game, you should win eventually.  

Speaking of Iona, she has made the Oath match up almost an auto-loss.  It's funny to me, because before Zendikar was released, Oath was one of the match-ups I looked forward to the most.  They gave me guys to clamp or whatever, and they spent so much time getting an Oath that some of their other resources were hurt by it.  I can't even remember all of the times I played against Oath in which I played a Llanowar Elf, my opponent plays Oath, and I beat them before they can Oath up the second dragon.  Now I pray they don't hit Iona first, and if they do, it's just game over.  

I can't say much about Fish decks, since the only time I've played a Fish deck I had Elvish Champion in my sideboard, and killed a BUG Fish build with Forestwalk.  

G/W Beats and Fish decks running White seem like a problem due to Ethersworn Canonist.  Man, that guy is just harsh against Elves!.  

I even had the distinct pleasure of playing against Dark Depths combo recently, and had to lose to an opponent who thought Skullclamp gave +1/+1 and didn't know how I was going to kill my creatures, Demonic Consultated for Vampire Hexmage, proceeded to rip Engineered Plague off the top, then decided to play Plague "just to be safe".  Not to mention that Sadistic Sacrament makes winning just annoying.  

In my various experiences playing against ritual based storm combo decks, Elves really misses the hand disruption and Force of Wills that TPS has. TPS can safely discard one of the Eight spells--out of sixty--that win us the game, usually without sacrificing tempo advantage for their combo.  Elves!, however, normally has to give up the all-important turn one mana elf (for a turn two kill) for a Thoughtseize / Duress effect to mess with the opposing combo player.  I once played a version of Grim Long in which I--on the play--played lotus, Glimpse, and a bunch of elves only to fizzle, to see my opponent go turn 1 Yawgmoth's Bargain (a strictly better play), draw until at one life, and concede because he didn't find lotus or enough mana sources to win.  Games two and three he absolutely wrecked my face, storming out turn two without much difficulty.  

On 1/31, I played in a tournament in Harrisburg and ran Elves!  I went 3-2 in that tournament, in which I lost to Oath (because I didn't know he was on Oath until game 3--I stormed him out game one and he beat me with Tezzeret game 2, and in neither of those games did I see so much as a tropical island, let alone a Forbidden Orchard) and the aforementioned blow out by Dark Depths combo.  My three wins were against 5C Stax and two Dredge decks.  If I had been playing a Stax player of high caliber, I would have lost that game hard; luckily, my opponent had misplays game one that won the game for me and I won game 2 off the back of some artifact destruction spells.  The first Dredge player I played against was new to the deck and missed a Bloodghast trigger Game 1 that helped; it also helped that he had no idea what to name off Cabal Therapy, saving my Glimpse of Nature and the game in game 1.  In game 2, my 9(!) dredge hate got there, although it was possibly the most abysmal game of Magic I've ever played.  At one point, after trying to go off the second or third time, I had EVERY LAND IN MY DECK either in my hand or on the board.  Luckily, he never found an answer to my Leyline, and he milled himself.  

When I was paired against Dredge again in the last round of swiss, I managed to kill him turn 1 on the draw, and my copious amount of hate game 2, coupled with his several mulligans in game two sealed the match for me.  After beating Dredge Game 1 two rounds in a row, I'm not sure how much all that hate is even needed, but Dredge is definitely one of the strongest decks in the format right now, so that's why I have so much hate in my board for it.  

My current sideboard is this:
4 x Leyline of the Void (Dredge)
3 x Extirpate (Dredge / ANYTHING THAT RUNS DARKBLAST / FIRE ICE)
2 x Ravenous Trap
3 x Gleeful Sabatoge (Used to run Seeds of Innocence, but it just costs too much, also this hits Oath)
3 x Seal of Primordium (Because Krosan Grip costs too much, I can sneak it out early and leave it there, and it hits Oath)

I play Elves! in every format.  They're my favorite creature type and favorite thing about Magic, really.  While I continue to play Elves! once in awhile and have it suffficiently pimped out to my liking, there are so many problems with the deck that just irk me.  Summoner's Pact is TERRIBLE in control match-ups unless you're already winning; Darkblaast and Fire / Ice and Chalice of the Void haunt my dreams, other combo decks winning faster is just disheartening, and the printing of Iona, the Shield of Emeria just hurts my brain.  

Mulliganing is a big issue for me as well, because with each mulligan, the deck's ability to win in the face of disruption shrinks and shrinks.  Although we run all four-ofs, and Eight primary draw spells, Once they're countered that's all she wrote unless we get lucky, draw another, and that one actually sticks.    I've tried Xantid Swarm for blue based decks, but in most of those games, they either counter the Swarm, and by the time I'm ready to try and win two turns later, they've already refilled their hand or Duressed my draw spell away, or I draw Xantid Swarms when I need Elves! to win.  I can't figure out away to deal with Fire / Ice and Darkblast, although Darkblast is much scarier.  Extirpate can help, but I have to A) Draw Extirpate and B) Hope that they don't have a counterspell for when I go off.  I used to run Duress effects to combat combo, but like I mentioned above, they don't seem to help enough because of the temp that I sacrifice.  My Dredge hate may be overdone--I have to do  more testing on that regard, but I can see pulling out four to put in either swarms or Thoughtseizes.  Currently I'm flirting with Maindecking blue for Ancestral Recall and Time Walk.  I tried it before and didn't like it, but it managed to do well in the last N.Y.S.E.  

I have tried Cradle in the main deck and the sideboard, and both times I've done well with the deck, cradle has helped out, but I may be biased.  Cradle frustratingly increases the number of hands I've needed to mulligan (and only running 12 or 13 other lands makes drawing lands difficult), but it does have GREAT synergy with Fastbond, and can help in the Stax matchup until it's Stripped away.  Currently I'm not playing it, but it can always pop up again.  I'm really curious as to how well Crop Rotation has been doing for you, because that card just seems TERRIBLE overall (no offense).  I'm not man enough to event try to play that card.  

I hope that reading about my experiences playing this deck has helped you with your sideboard plans.  Kudos to you if you can make the little green men work where I have failed.  Good luck!  

[the boogie man]

i personally like the xantids vs anything control. clampable as well. and claim seems to be where it's at, great against oath and shop.

in the main, i think that esg and another pact should get squeezed in. its like having 5 esg.

[merfolkOTPT]

My current Board has 5 cards for ichorid, as generally, if you gain one turn on them, you can race.  As for chalice problems, just bring in 4x gaea's herald, it dodges chalice at 1, makes you just ignore chalice, and it is an elf (bonus).  As for stax, yeah this sucks pretty hard, that being said 1st turn llanowar elf = not that horrible against stax, also, you do have ESG to help against sphere effects.  One possible plan is to side in lords, as they could potentially help your clock and make all you 1/1s for 1 relevant.  Smoke stack is generally horrible against you.  Also I am currently running wirewood hivemaster (as a one-of or two-of, don't have my current list with me) as a good card against stax, as he pumps out another permanent for every one you cast.  Seems to me that this is pretty good against them.

Current sideboard would be:

3x Ravenous Trap
2x Relic of Progenitus
3x Gaea's Herald (for chalice)
4x Nature's Claim (for everything else)
3x Elvish Archdruid (Against Stax, you can't combo anyway, so the beat down plan is the main plan).

[maatn]

3x Elvish Archdruid (Against Stax, you can't combo anyway, so the beat down plan is the main plan).

In the 3CMC slot against Stax, why not give Seeds of Innocence a try?
Of course, it's not very effective in other match ups

[the boogie man]

how much do you find you have to board against stax? i think instead of druids, seal be played. they are good against oath. or if your really afraid of stax, what about more esg. they get through sphere effects and allow you to get your mana guys out.

[merfolkOTPT]

I already play 4x ESG main.  As for why i need so much stax hate, does it simplify things if i just tell you i am from Ohio?  Specifically Cleveland, otherwise known as shops central.

My GWb Hate deck runs 4x Qasali 4x Nature's Claim 2x Seal main.

[the boogie man]

do you play hivemaster main? In a shop infested meta, this my be te way to go. it doesn't seem to slow the combo very much, and the secondary beatdown plan becomes much more prominent. also, gleeful sabotage seems like a winner in this deck, and it also avoids chalice @1. and if you get dudes out, you can avoid counterspells and chalice @ 2 as well.

I like esg, but I don't really agree with 4 esg main. I think that I would max at 2. they are kind of clunky mid combo and the mana isn't terribly needed, more 1 mana elves are better. Also, they aren't permanent mana, so they could screw up mulliganing too. I really like the ability to find one at instant speed for mana, though.

[jovialevil]

@ rpf5029

...congratulations on the tournament performance... 3-2 isn't that bad using a bunch of elves in vintage, I would think.  It's probably unreasonable for me to aim much higher than that : )

  Most of my testing of this deck has been with two windows of mindless automaton pulled up next to each other, testing against workshop, oath, and tezzeret decks, so my decklist probably can't be trusted too much at this point.  I will let you know how the cards I've put in fair after playing in an actual tournament.  So far, though, crop rotation doesn't feel too terrible; it lets skullclamp function, since that seems to take a lot of mana to pull off.  If gaea's cradle isn't in your maindeck, though, then there'd be no reason to even consider crop rotation.

  And, based on the look of your sideboard, am I correct in assuming that you don't side in anything against combo decks?  Or were you just not expecting to play any?

[rpf5029]

@ rpf5029

...congratulations on the tournament performance... 3-2 isn't that bad using a bunch of elves in vintage, I would think.  It's probably unreasonable for me to aim much higher than that : )

  Most of my testing of this deck has been with two windows of mindless automaton pulled up next to each other, testing against workshop, oath, and tezzeret decks, so my decklist probably can't be trusted too much at this point.  I will let you know how the cards I've put in fair after playing in an actual tournament.  So far, though, crop rotation doesn't feel too terrible; it lets skullclamp function, since that seems to take a lot of mana to pull off.  If gaea's cradle isn't in your maindeck, though, then there'd be no reason to even consider crop rotation.

  And, based on the look of your sideboard, am I correct in assuming that you don't side in anything against combo decks?  Or were you just not expecting to play any?

Thank you!

You're right--my sideboard had zero combo hate.  Storm combo decks, such as TPS or ANT aren't really prevalent in the area.  Stax and Dredge, however, I tend to see often.  I've been thinking about some of the suggestions above, such as running Elvish Archdruid, Gaea's Herald, or Wirewood Hivemaster to make the Stax match up better.  I didn't see why Hivemaster or Herald would be good, until I realized that the odds of actually winning off combo are really slim, and turning to the beatdown plan seems like a decent choice.  I dunno.  I guess I can test it.  I'm going to start testing heavily against Dredge now, because Dredge is so dominating.  I wanna see what my odds of racing it are. 

[merfolkOTPT]

Why are extra ESGs clunky mid combo, you will have three mana if you are mid combo, and it is an elf (oracle text woot woot!).  Yes i do run 2x hivemaster main.  They are good against Stax, and decent against any deck that runs dudes.

As for wanting to run more 1 mana elves, I am maxed out barring arbor elf, 4xLlanowar 4xFyndhorn 4xNettle Sentinel 4xBirchlore 4xHeritage druid 4xQuirion Ranger.  Unless i want to run arbor elf (I don't sometimes you bounce all your lands with the rangers, and also sometimes you go off with land esg, it just seems bad to run that guy).

[the boogie man]

more what I meant is instead of the full 4 esg, I'd rather have land or more quirion rangers or symbiotes or something.

[merfolkOTPT]

I pretty much straight up disagree, symbiote is awful most of the time, and ESG is certainly better than lands > #3, and most of the time ESG >lands above #2. 

ESG is amazing because it helps you go off turn 2, which is super important against things like Ichorid where it is basically just a race, and it is not horrible mid combo.  Lands on the other hands are like the worst card in the deck as soon as you see more than 1 or 2 of them, because they don't do anything.  Symbiote is bad in most cases barring targetted removal (which is pretty bad anyway) or stalling out, but it is a very specific kind of stalling out, that involves having played glimpses, having no skull clamp, having multiple forests in play (because usually the guy you want to bounce is a quirion ranger),etc.  It would be better if we ran mirror entity and/or elvish visionary, but those cards are jank-y in this version.  I think therefore that maxing out on ESG has to be a good choice, they are basically moxen in this deck since most of the time your moxen are only going to be in play for one turn.

[jovialevil]

  Um, as a general comment... if you have them typed out, could you post the decklists you're using?  Kind of difficult to assess whether the number of ESG, etc. is right just thinking about having them in a hypothetical elves deck : )

@merfolkOTPT:

  I agree that elvish spirit guide makes the deck faster, but worry about the number of lands, having to mulligan.  My deck currently has 14 (counting the mox and black lotus, because 3 mana at once is basically a permanent mana source for this), plus the bonus number 15 Gaea's cradle, which is useless unless you're trying to combo out with skullclamp.  But maybe fastbond should be an elvish spirit guide, since fastbond usually only adds maybe 2 mana on its own (3 lands in hand, but need to cast it) and doesn't really speed up the beginning of the game, since you'll only have extra lands if you're already drawing, winning.

  As a pointless aside about ESG, also, I've seen budget lists with lotus petal and <4 ESG, which seems terrible.

@rpf5029:

  Xantid swarm, yeah, I've considered and mostly discounted it too.  I was thinking about having more eternal witness in the sideboard, though.  Do you think that's too slow?  It seems like that could be right sideboard plan to address both counterspells and duress, as it would allow you to pull back your glimpse/clamp and try again.  Have you tested this?  I haven't yet.


 

[merfolkOTPT]

To the guy that wanted to see my list here it is:

My List is a little weird but I will post it, normally it has Black Lotus and Mox Emerald in it, but I am practicing for a no power tourney.

Kill:
2x Grapeshot (there is a lot of fish/aggro in my meta, and sometimes you want to grapeshot after casting 3 elves to kill a couple guys, it came up enough that I added a second copy to the main)
Mana Elves:
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Heritage Druid
4x Birchlore Ranger
4x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Llanowar elves
4x Quirion Ranger
Utility
2x Wirewood Symbiote
1x Viridian Shaman
1x Regal Force (a way to keep the 5 elves a forest and a tutor hand, also really good against fish and beatdown)
2x Wirewood Hivemaster (great against workshops, also makes skullclamp an easier win condition)
Tutors
4x Summoner's pact
Combo Pieces
4x Glimpse
4x Skullclamp
Mana
12x Forest (you said you think 14 is as low as you can go, I think 12 is fine, you only really need 1 in your opener most of the time, esp if you have a quirion ranger)
4x ESG

SB:
2x Ravenous Trap (for Dredge)
3x Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's crypt (ditto)
3x Gaea's Herald (for chalice)
4x Nature's Claim (for everything else)
3x Elvish Archdruid (Against Stax, you can't combo anyway, so the beat down plan is the main plan, and it is spicy against fish or beats decks since you can race them or you can combo them.)


My usual cuts are viridian shaman depending on the MU nettle sentinel against decks that don't have guys or targeted removal quirion ranger against decks where I bring in the beat down plan since they are more for comboing off faster.

Notable omissions:
-Gaea's Cradle, only good when you are going off at which point you don't really need mana, i guess ideally, you are going off turn 3 and haven't played a land yet and glimpse into this, seems meh.
-Mox, and b. lotus explained above
-Fetchlands/Dual lands: I basically don't want to open myself up to stifle/wasteland, it may seem silly, but i think the small amount of percentage I gain there is worth the small amount more forests i draw/inability to cast thoughtseize.
-Fastbond: This card is win more 95% of the time in this deck, unless you are going off and mana starved it is horrible.

I think this version has the best MU against stax/workshops that elves can have.  On the other hand it straight loses to faster combo, which is sad times, but thankfully those decks are generally pretty horrible in workshop/tez meta. 

[jovialevil]

Thanks for posting your list.  The differences between yours and mine all seem reasonable - the fetchlands in my current list are geared more toward having black mana for duress in the sideboard than for deck thinning, and the duress might get cut anyway.  Still working on it.

  The number of mana sources seems similar, too.  My list has 14 mana sources for the first turn, and yours has 16, so maybe that's easier in terms of having enough mana to at least start cranking out elves in the opening hand.  I am leaning toward putting in at least one ESG, probably in place of fastbond.

  A few minor questions, though:

• If you start trying to combo out with clamp, how often does your deck run out of mana?
• Can you still combo out ever if you side out nettle sentinel?  Or is that one of the things you cut when you play against workshops?
• Do you play against any/many mana drain decks?  If so... do you sideboard anything?

  But, overall, it looks like your list is a touch slower than the list I've been working on, but probably a lot less bad against workshops.  I'd be interested to know how your list fairs against Tezzeret, also, but probably you won't have to play too many of those for your no power tourney : )

[merfolkOTPT]

Comboing out without a single nettle sentinel is pretty tough.  I basically never side them out because they enable the combo and they are 2/2s for G that basically have vigilance.  Sorry i just realized i meant to type symbiote not sentinel earlier, i won't edit that and just say it here.

With clamp chances of running out of mana are higher than with glimpse, but plus side you can still win if you combo over two turns which you can't really do with glimpse.  I would say chances are still pretty low, i mean the formula is find 2 sentinels and heritage druid to combo, with that you actually net a mana per 1 casting cost guy and 2 cards with clamp. This gives you plenty of mana outside of weird variance cases. 

For mana drain decks you can bring in +3 heralds, -2 symbiote -1 Ranger.  If they are smart they want to counter a few specific cards including nettle sentinel this means they can't do that.  Remember you can actually race a mana drain deck without comboing by just attacking so depending on how familiar the opponent is with the MU game 1 (do they counter the right stuff, do they have to read all the cards) you might consider siding into the beat down plan, as it is still pretty fast, and they might bring in hate to stop other plans/try to race you with find tinker cast stinkwell, which can be slower than you team especially with archdruids.

[Zombie]

Hello, a fellow (though casual) elfball fan here. I play a version of the deck that's monoG and pretty much Extended + Fyndhorn + Skullclamp. In my opinion, a monogreen elfball would be one of the more interesting decks to optimize for Vintage, namely because it's fast and dodges a lot of hate by not being graveyard- and artifact-based. Basic lands and mana dorks laugh at Wasteland, too. Even funnier, you dodge free Massacres because you're not playing white.

Recently, though, I started thinking: All the storm decks play Tinker 'cause Tinker is, well, broken. Elf decks don't need that sort of stuff: The deck itself is the Tinker. But what if we played Tinker anyway? Say, like three copies? I'm of course talking about Natural Order, with the main targets being Progenitus and Regal Force. Elves is a deck that's basically built to play little dudes to ramp, so it pretty much always has a victim for Order. Many Vintage decks run Tinker hate in the form of targeted bounce and Hurkyl's Recall. Well, Protection from Everything and nonartifactness tend to make those moot. Good luck blowing Deed@10 for The Deck players, too. Edicts are useless because you have a horde of little green men. Those can block opposing beaters or chip in with the hydra to negate any potential lifegain, should there be some. Order can also fetch Regal Force mid-combo for a nice Draw-7 imitation (+ a huge beatstick), or search other things later on.

Order has a tendency of making bad hands into third-turn hydras, and complicating lategame comboing a bit, especially if you're running on Skullclamp. I don't run Hivemasters, so that might be it, though.
I'm not certain at all if Order would improve any matchups, but it should be worth a try, at least. Also, for those who prefer Sundering Titan as a Tinker target, Woodfall Primus exists. It should be pretty nice to Order for Primus, and then Order for Regal Force, saccing Primus to the second Order. Persist <3

For context, my decklist:

Lands:
16x Forest

Mana: (givens)
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Heritage Druid
4x Birchlore Rangers

Draw:
4x Glimpse of Nature
3x Skullclamp (generally awkward to draw in multiples, in my experience)
3x Elvish Visionary
1x Regal Force (some goldfishing made me feel the deck wants another for Order-munchingness)

Search: (duh)
4x Summoner's Pact
3x Natural Order

Utility:
4x Wirewood Symbiote

Win:
1x Progenitus
1x Grapeshot

[jovialevil]

Your anti-mana drain plan sounds reasonable.  I move out the symbiotes a lot too.

One thing you might consider (and that I am considering), is replacing at least one of your elvish archdruids in the sideboard with joraga warcaller.  You can probably get 3/3 elves that way, and it's not a totally dead draw if you're trying to start the combo, because it's still a one mana elf.  I might try to fit one into the main deck as a potential pact target.

http://magiccards.info/rep/en/15.html

[jovialevil]

@ Zombie:

  Your decklist looks reasonable, but maybe slowing the deck down to have this alternate plan isn't the best option... Progenitus instead of comboing out is an extra threat, but gives another two turns for the opponent to play.  Something that might work a little better would be using your build as a base for a legacy deck, since you've already started cutting out skullclamp, the only really powerful card the deck loses to switch over to legacy.

  The other main recommendation I'd make would be to reduce the number of forests and add quirion ranger in their place... maybe drop two forests and a symbiote for 3 rangers.  You should be able to make most of your first and second turn land drops and also get a little more out of llanowar elves that way.

[merfolkOTPT]

Your anti-mana drain plan sounds reasonable.  I move out the symbiotes a lot too.

One thing you might consider (and that I am considering), is replacing at least one of your elvish archdruids in the sideboard with joraga warcaller.  You can probably get 3/3 elves that way, and it's not a totally dead draw if you're trying to start the combo, because it's still a one mana elf.  I might try to fit one into the main deck as a potential pact target.

http://magiccards.info/rep/en/15.html

I am not convinced about warcaller, he needs 2 more mana to be better than elvish archdruid at pumping and he doesn't tap for mana although i do like that he a 1 mana elf when you need him to be.  Hmm.

I think not being able to effectively double your mana production is a big deal though.  Warcaller would be better if we were gonna run any main deck because he probably the best card pre board, just because at worst mid combo he is a one mana elf, but i think that out of the board when we know we are going with the beatdown plan (primarily against Stax) we want Archdruid.

What do you think about cloudstone curio as a potential card for the deck, it probably requires at least 3 other cards be included to be worthwhile: Primal Command, essence warden, eternal witness  and maybe elvish visionary.  It does let you actually go infinite on mana, storm, and life, also guys if you have hivemaster.  I imagine if you played this you could cut grape shot for 2 slots, but finding 4-5 more main slots would be tough.  Thoughts?