[Deck] Tool's N' Tubbies

[MuzzonoAmi]

That' what my inital thoughts were, but with all the talk I'm hearing about how great the deck and it's creatures are, I was starting to fear a potential blitz from O. Stompy might be enough to overwhelm me. Normally I'd just play the matchup, but since I don't have a list, I can't do that at the moment.

[Rico Suave]

Has Memory Jar fallen out of favor lately?  I'm not seeing it much...

[Akuma]

I think Memory Jar is a bit more inconsistent without blue which decreases your chances of finding it. I dropped it for a while when there was a lot of Dragon around, but it's back in my maindeck (I run blue).

I'm still testing my 2004 list, but so far I have relegated all the hosers to the sideboard. My maindeck is basically just creatures, search, and mana (very light on disruption). This causes a problem against the better combo decks (TPS and Dragon), but as someone else said (I don't remember who), you should concentrate on the matchups you can take or are close to taking. The matchup against combo should be pretty difficult even with your hosers. More on this later.

[Toad]

I found that with Solemn Simulacrum to fix the mana base in early game, ramping up to 3 non Workshop manas was easier than ramping to 5 Workshop manas. Wheel of Fortune or Memory Jar are generally third or fourth turn spells, never before, and at that point of the game the risk my Worskhop already got Wasted is really high. I obviously lose the Welder recursion with the Jar, but I've always found that trick to be really useless. Yes, a Jar each turn wins games. But in testings I always found that I'd rather recur a hasty Juggernaut and swing for 5 for the fastest kill possible.

I really like MD Blood Moons and Pyrostatic Pillars. I've run my TNT build to a Top8 (2nd) finish in Paris last week end (82 players, half were powered) and Pyrostatic Pillar has often be the MVP of the game. One game my opponent had an Hurkyl's Recall on a stick and he lost to my Pillars, taking 2 then 4 each turn for bouncing my hasty Juggernauts. I also had a broken "Land, Lotus, Pillar, Pillar" against a Storm deck, which was obviously game. The Pillars have dealt an average of 8 damage each time I dropped them, and my opponent were mostly focused on them rather than on my nasty Welders, which is really good. As It was mentionned before, Pillar is really like Standstill, it makes the opponent keep their spells in hand, which is good.

After the tourney, I'd have some comments on the build I posted in opening. 2 Solemns seems to be the perfect number. I don't want to draw them in late game but I want some in opening hand or for Survival purpose. 3 Su-Chi was OK. Platinium Angel was almost always crap and got sideboarded out a lot. It's probably not MD material. And Duplicant was probably the second MVP of the day after Goblin Welder, because It allowed me to steal a game to Hulk (dropping a Tog with 25 cards in the grave and seeing it RFG is no fun for the opponent) and another one in a mirror match. I had a Xantid Swarm in my SB and it was absolute crap. It's just a Fire target. Elvish Replica is cool but kinda slow.

[DavidHernandez]

RE: Memory Jar:

i've been running a Stacker build recently (w/3 Pyrostatic Pillars and 4 Shrapnel Blasts), and found that Memory Jar doesn't fit anymore.  I think the same holds true for TnT.  

I think the speed of TnT, combined with running multiples of cards, makes the Jar weaker when you can put in more threats (like Pyrostatic Pillars) or extra mana acceleration (my Stacker build only runs 26 sources).

Re: Platinum Angel:

This is a card that i want to make my signature, like jayemdae was for Weissman.  BUT, i just can't seem to make it fit anywhere, in any deck.  It always gets boarded out, or it is first on the list of things i can cut for something 'better'.  The only deck in which i have had any success (with P.Angel) is a Keeper build i'm testing.

--Dave.

[Akuma]

Re: Platinum Angel

Since most decks are running artifact removal nowadays, this card always ends up being less than stellar. I think you would have to run two of them to really give an opponent a headache, but the card is too expensive and very narrow. If you are using your welders successfully, then you are in a good position anyway, so the angel does not do much. It's only purpose is to annoy combo decks or to gain you an extra turn (delaying tactic), and even then, it's marginal.

With all those negative things I have said, I'm still running one in my TnT

[Jacob Orlove]

Trinisphere
 
Artifact
As long as Trinisphere is untapped, each spell that would cost less than three mana to play costs three mana to play. (Additional mana in the cost may be paid with any color of mana or colorless mana. For example, a spell that would cost 1B to play costs 2B to play instead.)

* Trinisphere's ability affects the total cost of the spell. It is applied *after* any other cost increasers or cost reducers are applied: First apply any cost increases. Next apply any cost reducers. Finally look at the amount of mana you have to pay. If it's less than three mana, you'll pay three mana.

* Even with a cost reducer in play, spells can't cost less than three mana to play.

* If a spell costs at least three mana due to additional costs, such as kicker costs, that's fine.

* You still need to pay any additional nonmana costs the spell has, such as sacrificing a creature or discarding cards.

* Playing a creature with morph face down already costs three mana, even though the converted mana cost of the face-down spell is zero, so Trinisphere normally doesn't modify the total cost of a face-down creature spell. However, if Dream Chisel is reducing that cost while Trinisphere is in play, you'll still have to pay three mana for the spell.

Does this have a place in TnT, or is Pillar just better?

[MuzzonoAmi]

I would say Pillar is just better, because it fits the more aggressive strategy of the deck better. TnT would rather say 'sure, pay 8 life to blow my Pillar up' than 'sure, pay 2W to Disenchant my Trinisphere'. In decks like Stacker, however, this is just better than Winter Orb right now. It makes Chalice for 1 an even bigger bomb than it has been. I think the real question is what to cut for it (as you can see, I'm leaning Worb) but that is a question for another thread.

[Cancerman]

Hey guys!
It's been a while. I've been playing TNT since its origins and lately, i've tried this version at Carta Magica monthly type 1 on Jan 4th:

CREATURES:

1 Anger
1 Gorilla Shaman
4 Goblin Welder
2 Squee
1 Elvist Lyrist
1 Elvish Scrapper
1 Genesis
1 Uktaby Orangutan
1 Elvish Replica
4 Juggernaut
1 Phyrexian Colossus
2 Triskelion
Total: 20

Spells:

3 Blood Moon
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Sylvan Library
Total: 9

Mana:

7 SOLOMOX
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mana crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Taiga
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
4 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
Total: 31

As you can notice, there isn't a lot of pressure, just a bunch of utilities and 5 Fatties.

Things to reconsider:

-I must get rid of Chrome MOX... It just plainly sucks.
-1 Triskelion is enough
-2 Squee is a must!!!
-With the addition of Solemn, Sylvan Library should be cut.
-Mox monkey, Uktaby Orangutan, Elvish Scrapper and Elvish Replica were metagame choices
-Genesis is GOLD agaisnt Control

I was paired off against Special K's "Keeper", U/R Stacker 3, Old Ext. unlimited life en-Khor deck, Landstill, Goblins and some random scrub deck. I ended up win a 3-3 overall result. Not very satisfying. My loses came against Goblins, U/R Stacker 3 and En-khor deck.

The thing that lacked the most with this version of the deck was the overall pressure by fatties. Without the Su-Chis, I was basicaly beating down my opponents with wedlers and Squee... A very sad sight if I may add.

In that tourney in Montreal, there was a field of 4-5 Landstill decks, 2 Oshawa Madness, 1-2 Dragon, U controll, TOG, Dryads, 3-4 Goblins variants, U/R Fish, etc... It's a very diverse field of decks.

What I'm trying to say is that TnT MUST include more Fat pressure. In this case, the inclusion of Su-Chi is almost necessary in order that achieve this effect. Elsewhere, I agree with Toad when he mentions that Pillars act like Standstill. The combination of Pillars and Fat give this deck a chance to end the match-up quickly. Also, Blood Moon is just to broken.

Any thoughts?

@Toad: I intend to use your version of the deck. But what would you do against Goblins???

[Toad]

@Toad: I intend to use your version of the deck. But what would you do against Goblins???

Quite frankly, I've never tested against Food Chains Goblins, so I can't tell you about this matchup. Standard Goblins is a really different deck. It is faster and can explode in a turn like the Comboish version thanks to Goblin Warchief. And they have burn for your Welders. The matchup is tricky, but most of the Goblin decks don't pack Wastelands, which is a good point. In this matchup, you have to turn TNT into a Controlish deck. Hold the first waves with chump blockers (Simulacrum is golden here), ramp up to 6 manas and drop Triskelion. This will almost always sceal the game. Post sideboarding, I bring in an additional Triskelion, wait until I have 7 manas on the board and a Triskelion in the graveyard, drop Triskelion and an Angry Welder, then wreck them. It's obviously no fun if they bring Null Rods (my Goblins standard opponent has 4 in his SB for Masticore and Triskelion), which is why I also sideboard Viashino Heretic in.

The build I've been running in the tourney last week end was the following (I made a few changes based on my feelings after the tourney).

// Mana sources
1 [card]Mountain[/card]
3 [card]Forest[/card]
3 [card]Taiga[/card]
3 [card]Wooded Foothills[/card]
4 [card]Mishras Workshop[/card]
1 [card]Strip Mine[/card]
4 [card]Wasteland[/card]
1 [card]Black Lotus[/card]
1 [card]Sol Ring[/card]
1 [card]Mox Pearl[/card]
1 [card]Mox Sapphire[/card]
1 [card]Mox Ruby[/card]
1 [card]Mox Emerald[/card]
1 [card]Mox Jet[/card]
1 [card]Mana Crypt[/card]
1 [card]Grim Monolith[/card]
// Beatz
4 [card]Juggernaut[/card]
3 [card]Su-Chi[/card]
// Engine and utilities
4 [card]Goblin Welder[/card]
1 [card]Squee Goblin Nabob[/card]
1 [card]Anger[/card]
2 [card]Solemn Simulacrum[/card]
1 [card]Duplicant[/card]
1 [card]Platinum Angel[/card]
1 [card]Karn Silver Golem[/card]
1 [card]Triskelion[/card]
1 [card]Quirion Ranger[/card]
4 [card]Survival of the Fittest[/card]
1 [card]Wheel of Fortune[/card]
// Disruption
3 [card]Blood Moon[/card]
4 [card]Pyrostatic Pillar[/card]
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [card]Red Elemental Blast[/card]
SB: 1 [card]Naturalize[/card]
SB: 2 [card]Artifact Mutation[/card]
SB: 1 [card]Viashino Heretic[/card]
SB: 3 [card]Tormods Crypt[/card]
SB: 3 [card]Chalice of the Void[/card]
SB: 1 [card]Elf Replica[/card]
SB: 1 [card]Triskelion[/card]

Pyrostatic Pillar has been the MVP of the day. My "worst" Pillar has delt 4 damage to my opponent, and it was game 1 of a mirror match. The "best" one has delt 16 damage (Storm based Combo deck). The average was 8 damage, which is kinda hot in a deck that can swing for 5 or more on his second turn.

I'm not running MD Elvish Scrapper or Elvish Lyrist, because I don't want to have a fully Survival based deck. I want to be able to win games by only putting pressure on my opponent, hence I cut utility for disruption tools such as Pyrostatic Pillar. I'm playing in a metagame with a lot of standard Aggro decks but, with the maindeck Platinium Angel, fat dudes and the Survival engine to get me Triskelion or Duplicant if needed, I thought 1 Triskelion would be plenty enough to deal with Sligh or Suicide, which proved to be a good call. I've never missed Masticore, but the SBed Triskelion was usefull. It can become a Flametongue Kavu though. My maindeck was mainly designed to beat Control and Combo, which was a nice call because this is all what I had to face during the tournament. I'm not sold on Quirion Ranger without Phyrexian Colossus in the deck, I'm considering cutting it for MD artifact removal (Uktabi Oran Utan).

[Cancerman]

@Toad:

I have to agree with you about your decklist... Except that in my experience, I believe that 2 Squee are a must considering the amount of graveyard hate. Also, do you really consider that Wheel of fortune to be a necessity for the deck, or is it just a metagame call? (too much goblins and Madness around here!)

Pesonnaly, I also think that 1 or 2 Flametongue Kavu should see a spot in the sideboard.

[Toad]

2 Squees is probably good if you are running Masticore, but I don't find it necessary even with graveyard hate being rampant. Drawing Squee without Survival out is not something you want to do. A 1/1 recurring dude for 3 manas is bad. Running 2 Squees means you really emphasizes your build around Survival, which is something I don't. My build has Blood Moon and Pyrostatic Pillars for mid and late game. Quite frankly, my main concern with graveyard hate is losing Anger, because the incarnation is what makes the deck strong, not Squee, as you lose the ability to do nasty Welder tricks without it.

I don't consider Wheel of Fortune as being a metagame call. It obviously sucks in a field where Madness and Goblins are rampant, but you'll almost always gain a huge advantage with the Wheel. Just sideboard it out against Madness decks or decks that deplete their hand faster than you. Wheel of Fortune is strong against Control decks (blue based or Workshop based), often a game breaker. It's also a way to dump utility critters in your graveyard if you can't find Survival and you have Welder out. I'm running it over Memory Jar because with Wasteland and Null Rod being rampant, I don't want to rely on it as my secondary draw engine, but Wheel is almost always fine.

Flametongue Kavu is a nice SB card, but without Genesis for recursion, I simply dislike it. Of course, It can deal with fatties and wrecks Suicide if Negator is out, but in testings I was always looking for another solution. If I want to get me rid of an annoying fattie (Arrogant Wurm, Dreadnought, Psychatog...), I tutor for Duplicant. If my opponent has a swarm of 1/1 out, I tutor for Triskelion. I found both to be more efficient than Kavu in a given situation, and have a better synergy with the other cards in the deck (Survival and Welder). I don't want more than a single copy of Duplicant, but in plenty matchups I want another weenie removal, hence the Triskelion in the SB.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Here's my new list with the Darksteel cards I'm testing:

Vineyard TnT

// Mana
        4 Eladamri's Vineyard
        1 Grim Monolith/Talisman of Impulse
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland
        1 Mountain
        2 Forest
        2 Talisman of Impulse
        3 City of Traitors
        4 Taiga
        4 Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
        4 Goblin Welder
        4 Juggernaut
        3 Su-Chi
        1 Sundering Titan
        1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
        1 Anger
        1 Triskelion
        1 Arcbound Bruiser
        1 Karn, Silver Golem
        1 Duplicant
        2 Solemn Simulacrum
// Stuff that's not creatures
        4 Survival of the Fittest
        4 Pyrostatic Pillar
        4 Blood Moon
// Sideboard
SB:  1 Platinum Angel
SB:  2 Gorilla Shaman
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Elf Replica
SB:  3 Naturalize
SB:  4 Artifact Mutation

The Arcbound Bruiser has been great, especially in the O.Stompy matchup where they can leech off your Vineyards to get faster fat. It's like a Weldable Giant Growth that doesn't go away EOT. Pillar MD is awesome as well. And better yet, there's less mana flood than before.

[Lord of the Goats]

not to bring up a dead issue but i didn't have acess here till now so here we go. jar vs wheel. any draw 7 is dangerous to play, but jar is less dangerous because it can be animated with karn or saved until later... in addition it don't affect your original hand at all (which in a con if you're holding anger).  control players have a lot more breating room with wheel because if you're playing it they know thy're getting a new hand and that they'll use it first because unlike jar it's effect must happen imidiately. jar can be resolved while they're out of counters(or cards in hand) without the danger of letting them recover since you don't need to activate it until later.

in addition jar is weldable so even if it's countered you can still use it. the same cannot be said of wheel.

on mana costs, simulacrums make it easier to cast both wheel and jar, so unless to see a lot of wastes (that kill your shops) there's no difference. so given a normal amount of shops, i think that the ability for jar to be welded  and it's flexibility to be played regardless of wether you want to use it gives it a slight edge.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

I agree with Lord of the Goats here. IMO Memory Jar is a lot more effective in TNT than Wheel is. First reason is the one mentioned my LotG before that it doesn't give the other player a new hand of cards to play with. The second one is even more compelling to me, though: Memory Jar can be retrieved by Welder multiple turns in a row, allowing it to win games just on it's own (as there's a reasonable chance that you'll be able to get a Welder onto the table during the Jar-turn, even if there is none in play beforehand). These two points make Jar much more of a thread than Wheel is, IMO. I personally play control whenever I can and I never think about letting a Jar resolve if I can stop it. The same is not true for Wheel, as quite often my opponent allows me to take the game through his own Wheel. Control being the manace it is atm, I think any card that strengthens the matchup for TNT is valuable on it's own. Therefor I'd strongly urge anybody to include Jar before even thinking about playing WoF.

I'm running it over Memory Jar because with Wasteland and Null Rod being rampant, I don't want to rely on it as my secondary draw engine, but Wheel is almost always fine.

I see the thought-process that's led to this, I just can't get to the same results. If an opponent manages to screw TNT from 4 or 5 mana for the rest of the game, he'll definitly win anyway, as you won't be able to drop any threats. Regarding Null Rod, it's pretty unnerving that it stops your draw7s, but considering which decks usually run Null Rod, I usually won't want to use Wheel against them or they're acceptable matchups anyway and I'd rather strengthen the matchups that don't have the rod.


Another point I'd like to make is this: Playing TNT in testgames vs an unexperienced Keeper-player, I really got to hate Solemn Simulacrum. It just doesn't pose enough of a thread. I'd never include Solemn before I got the full set of 8 Tubbies MD. Casting Solemn instead of having a Su-Chi dropped on the table turn one decreases the power of your attack by a level that is just unacceptable. Playing Solemns in addition to the full beatdown complement seems to be an option for me, as they do have their uses, but weaking the beatdown-power of the deck to do so will only end in more losses, IMO.
Take this for whatever it's worth, as I'm not an experienced TNT-player, but I knew the other side of the matchup pretty well. And I love seeing TNT to try to outdraw me instead of bashing my face in ASAP. Solemns are cute, Su-Chis are threats.

[DavidHernandez]

Borrowing some tech from O.Stompy, do any of you think that Troll Ascetic could find a place in TnT, even with the 1GG casting cost?  It's a really great threat, and could fit well.

--Dave.

[Dante]

Borrowing some tech from O.Stompy, do any of you think that Troll Ascetic could find a place in TnT, even with the 1GG casting cost?  It's a really great threat, and could fit well.

--Dave.

not with the mana-bases that are floating around.  They're barely running enough green to properly abuse SotF as is, much less try and get GG.  Also, the troll isn't welder-able...

[Toad]

Another point I'd like to make is this: Playing TNT in testgames vs an unexperienced Keeper-player, I really got to hate Solemn Simulacrum. It just doesn't pose enough of a thread. I'd never include Solemn before I got the full set of 8 Tubbies MD. Casting Solemn instead of having a Su-Chi dropped on the table turn one decreases the power of your attack by a level that is just unacceptable. Playing Solemns in addition to the full beatdown complement seems to be an option for me, as they do have their uses, but weaking the beatdown-power of the deck to do so will only end in more losses, IMO.
Take this for whatever it's worth, as I'm not an experienced TNT-player, but I knew the other side of the matchup pretty well. And I love seeing TNT to try to outdraw me instead of bashing my face in ASAP. Solemns are cute, Su-Chis are threats.

Solemn Simulacrum is obviously not a threat, and hence It's pretty weak to drop it on your first turn against Keeper. My reasonning beyond using Simulacrums is that Keeper is not the only deck that sees play in Type One. Simulacrums are very good against fast Aggro, as you can chump block with them while cantripping and expanding your mana base to ramp up to the crucial 6 manas for Triskelion or Masticore with 2 open. Against Prison, It is 2 permanents to tap to Tangle Wire or sacrifice to a Smokestack (and It will still draw you a card). Tutoring up for an early Simulacrum is a nice way to evade their lock. And, last point, It makes you less vulnerable to Wastelanding and stabilizes your mana base (which is highly unconsistant). I think Simulacrum is just a metagame call. If Aggro and Prison are rampant, then a few Simulacrums are fine (I'd never play more than 2) because you need a good late game and a strong mana base. If Control is everywhere, then you need to put your opponent on a fast clock and Su-Chi is better. By playing 2 Simulacrums, I'm weakening my matchup against Keeper and make most of the other ones better.

do any of you think that Troll Ascetic could find a place in TnT, even with the 1GG casting cost? It's a really great threat, and could fit well.

The casting cost is prohibitive and it has no synergy with Survival of the Fittest and Goblin Welder. I'm weakening the beatdown power of TNT by running Simulacrums, but there is a logic beyond that. I don't want to run more critters with Power < 4.

[DavidHernandez]

yeah, i thought it's cc would be prohibitive.  The creature is just so hard to get rid of in Stompy that i wondered if it had been tried here.

thanks,
dave.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Has anyone been testing any of the Arcbound creatures? The Brusier or the Reclaimer are probably the best ones for TnT, and of the two, I've found the Brusier to be better. Also, what about Sundering Titan? It's probably the best bomb we have against control yet.

[Lord of the Goats]

Has anyone been testing any of the Arcbound creatures? The Brusier or the Reclaimer are probably the best ones for TnT, and of the two, I've found the Brusier to be better. Also, what about Sundering Titan? It's probably the best bomb we have against control yet.

yes, but not extensivly. an observation i had right before hulk got big was that a 4/4 wasn't fast enough but a 5 power guy was. none of the arcbound dudes really help in that department, and even the bruiser which is the biggest is a turn 2-3 drop. imo if there were more of them it would be better because then all removal short of stp wouldn't be effective. as it is, i don't want to fit more than 6 in tops.. and that's not enough to really neutralize removal. add to that the fact that all the arcbounds are slightly too small and slightly overcosted and their value diminishes.

the reclaimer is interesting as well as the 2 mana one that lets you sac artifacts for counters... those have potential outside of the modular ability which will be important to keep pumping one fatty at times, but as a general rule is slower than we would like so just having modular isn't good enough imo.

as for sundering titan, it's a house.... but it's also a double edged sword. you don't want it against other welder decks. it makes it hard to keep survival going either way since everyone made room for strips by cutting green sources. and since titan only hits basic land types you can't cut the strips because then you're open to bazzars and man lands... although bloodmoon may fill this gap enough on its own. i may run some pain lands to see if that works better...

anyway, titan is really good and it takes the place of trisk in the survival chain most of the time because it's better to weld in a guy who kills a lot of lands and swings for 7 that a guy who swings for 4 and then pings for 3 (total 7). that's not to say that titan is stricly better than trisk... they serve different functions.

[Smmenen]

LOTG,

Do you mind posting your most recent TnT list?

I respect your opinion and am curious what you have cooked up.

Steve

[Lord of the Goats]

LOTG,

Do you mind posting your most recent TnT list?

I respect your opinion and am curious what you have cooked up.

Steve

i would, but i'm not set on anything yet. i've just started testing the darksteel stuff, and i'm still not done w/ mirodin, i guess you could say i've been busy as of late. so as much as i'd love to post a list, i don't have a reasonably solidified list yet so i can't.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I'm just reporting back on some of my testing here: Arcbound Brusier is too small and too expensive. I'm going to test the Overseer and the Reclaimer before I write off the Modular guys, though. And Sundering Titan is awesome. He's usually my second target against Hulk and Keeper, because it just wins games.

[Zherbus]

I was toying with dropping the whole pillar/bloodmoon act and running with more card draw. Just a whim, but here it is.

// Mana sources
2 Forest
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mishras Workshop
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Grim Monolith
// Beatz
4 Juggernaut
4 Su-Chi
// Engine and utilities
4 Goblin Welder
1 Squee Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Uktabi Orangutan
2 Elvish Spirit Guides
1 Platinum Angel
1 Karn Silver Golem
1 Triskelion
1 Quirion Ranger
// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Memory Jar
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Thirst for Knowledge

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Naturalize
SB: 2 Artifact Mutation
SB: 1 Viashino Heretic
SB: 3 Tormods Crypt
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Elf Replica
SB: 1 Triskelion

I haven't test it much, but my teammates that have report pretty grim results. I think there may be something to running Thirsts and Spirit Guides, but then again I could be wrong.

[Akuma]

Zherbus - I have tested adding the 'card draw' instead of the Pillars/Moons extensively. I have to agree with your teammates, the results are grim. By removing your 'disruption' and adding card draw you stand no chance against good combo and you let control do their thing unhindered. Their card draw and what they draw is just flat out better. You draw more critters, they draw into broken sh#t. I have been testing R/G/u TnT using either Brainstorm/Pillar or Thirst/Pillar, and I think that may be a viable option.

Another option, if you want to incorporate the blue card draw, is to redesign the deck and do something similar to the old Fact or Fiction based tubbies decks of long ago. The problem with that is that the 'modern' day Mindslaver decks are already built on that skeleton.

So basically, the maindeck of TnT has to contain some form of disruption (Tangle Wire, Pillars, Blood Moons, Spheres, or Chalices etc.)

[Zherbus]

Right, which tells me that people with Workshops are, more times than not, better off playing Prison of some sort.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

I've always been a friend of blue in TNT, whenever I playtest with or against a 2-color version I experience a pretty harsh incosistency problem.
In addition I never liked Blood Moon in TnT, it just doesn't support it's strategy to well. IMO you want to play threats not disrupt both players manabases. This makes it easy for me to part with.

That being said, you all might be interested in a half a year old decklist by CAB-member Benjamin Rott which he T8ed in Dülmen with:
report including decklist

I'm not sure if Thirst is better than Brainstorm for the deck, as Thirst will usually take up a whole mainphase while Brainstorm doesn't, but I think Thirst definitly merits testing.
I agree that Pillars are to good not to play them, though. I also consider some amount of Strip-effects to be just necessary for the deck, though testing might prove me wrong here.

[Akuma]

Mon's deck is pretty solid. My build is very similar. Although I opted to play R/G TnT at the last tournament I entered and was crushed in the finals by GAT (U/b/g). I really felt the absence of the blue draw spells during this match in which I was at the mercy of my top decks. The lands with the following initials: M + W, were nowhere to be found

I do prefer the Brainstorms because of their lower CC and their ability to replace chaff in your hand with something useful.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I don't think that splashing Blue adds anything that it doesn't take away by destabilizing the manabase and making it impossible to run Blood Moon. Maybe both Wheel and Jar deserve a slot if you're having trouble with not drawing enough. Oh, and I'm really liking Gigapede. Recurring untargetables that munch other guys in combat are great.