What makes Tez better than Bargain and Desire in Drain Control decks?

[meadbert]

I have been struggling to figure out why Tez is played so often, but Bargain and Desire basically never show up in Drain shells.

The obvious answer is that Bargain and Desire cost 1 extra mana, but their relative power level seem to justify that extra mana.
Bargain has the drawback of not being able to pitch to Force, but Desire does.
Bargain's other drawback is that losing a lot of life and having to pass the turn is bad if you are staring down creatures, but Tez is also pretty bad in that situation.
The final advantage is that Tez is a win condition where Bargain and Desire are not.

Are Bargain and Desire underplayed?
Is Tez overplayed?
Is that 1 extra mana cost that important?
Is the fact that Tez is a win condition that important?
Am I missing some other crucial advantage of Tez?

[honestabe]

Desire and bargain, as well as tezz are only as good as the deck they are in.

While virtually game-winning in Storm decks, desire and bargain are win-more cards at best in a drain shell.

Tezzeret is better that these, because of his synergy with the rest of the deck, as well as the fact that more than 90% of the time, he wins the turn after he's played.

[psyburat]

Tezzeret the Seeker acts as another win condition.  In a situation where your KeyVault and Bigman of choice have been compromised you still have the option to lethal attack with Moxen.

[DubDub]

I've played Desire a few times in a Drain shell, and came to the conclusion that it's win-more there.  I played it alongside Memory Jar and it won me a game (flipping Tezz himself, Demonic and some blanks?  Maybe Oli remembers.)

There's also the matter that you're slightly more likely to hit blanks (in comparison to Desire in TPS), since there's a lower threat density and more countermagic.

[AmbivalentDuck]

How is a win condition "win-more?"  Meadbert makes a valid point: if you can resolve a 5cc "enchantment" that wins next turn, why not instead resolve a 6cc sorcery with storm or a 6cc enchantment that win on the spot?
-Tez makes a bunch of 5/5s that can turn sideways whereas relying on Confidant + VaultKey (after tinker -> bot is no longer available) can be awkward.
-Bargain effectively requires a win-con that's not Bob and therefore takes up more space than Tez.
-Desire can (and does) wiff and fail to do anything useful even with 5-6 storm.
-Both have issues with resistor effects that Tez does not.

[TheBrassMan]

I have played Desire in a control shell pretty recently (in Watskeburt, here), and afterwords messed around with it a bit in a more typical Tez-like shell.  I lost game after game with the card due to both a lower ability to generate storm in a turn you need 6 mana, and a lower density of relevant cards to flip.  I would frequently only be able to desire in the 4-6 range, and flip 4 or more lands, counterspells or removal.  Particularly embarrassing were the times I flipped a Will or a Tendrils and was unable to leverage that.  If I didn't miss entirely I would get something along the lines of a Merchant Scroll and and a Vamp Tutor, which did not end up compensating for the resources I expended casting the Desire.  Even a Tinker when it costs 6 mana + burning 4 extra cards to get it.  It's pretty telling that in Tezzeret, the best thing you could possibly flip off a small Desire is a Tezzeret.

I couldn't tell you how Bargain is, I haven't tested it in a control deck since 2004.  My guess would be that it's better at closing the game than Desire is, but it's always been better at that.  Desire's strength is resilience against counters, which Bargain doesn't have.  Where Desire suffers from a lack of bombs in control, Bargain suffers from a lack of fast mana.  Particularly if Lotus has been used (and Bargain is in play, so it's not unlikely), the control deck is going to have some trouble generating the mana it needs to win the turn it plays Bargain.  Time Walk and 2 mana will do it, or 4 mana and Vault-Key, but that's not a small thing to ask in a deck that runs few if any rituals.  (and I'm assuming we're not talking about a "Drain Tendrils" style list with Rituals, as those already run Bargain on occasion).  You probably win if you pass the turn, but you probably win if you pass the turn with Tezzeret, which is blue and costs one less.  To be fair, Bargain isn't as worried about a 2/2 on the other side of the field as Tez is, so there are definitely situations where it's better, even if you cant win the turn you play it.  Though probably a corner case, it's worth noting that even if Bargain finds you Vault/Key, extra turns don't net you extra cards with Bargain out, and it's possible to lock yourself out of draw steps without a kill card, (especially against decks that attack apply pressure to the life tota.l)  Tezz, on the other hand, is a self contained win condition, which while not optimal, can give you additional outs in a Sadistic Sacrament type situation.

tl;dr - Desire-no; Bargain-maybe, but *I'm* not going to test it.

[honestabe]

How is a win condition "win-more?"  

Because Desire and Bargain are weak in a deck not designed to abuse them.

[Grand Inquisitor]

only as good as the deck they are in

This.

It sounds simple, but this is really what's driving the combo-control builds right now.  While there have been points where the engine was important (Gush-Scroll could win with anything as a finisher), much of the time the primary (re: most efficient) win condition defines the design optimization.  Time Vault-Key is so low maintenance that there's no need for an engine right now.  Tutors have always had the upper hand on draw, but right now that margin is larger than it maybe ever has been.  Bargain and Desire have major input requirements and they don't necessarily deliver the goods.  That and because winning is so easy, disruption and marginal advantage are very important.  I also think this is why (along with the printing of very solid creatures) Oath is a strong option right now.

[AmbivalentDuck]

How is a win condition "win-more?"  

Because Desire and Bargain are weak in a deck not designed to abuse them.

"Win-more" is a card that only helps when you're already winning.  In the control mirror, if both decks are in topdeck mode, a player who resolves Bargain simply wins.

As a semantic point, a win-con would have to be extremely weak to be win-more.  Ie. Mons Goblin Raiders in place of Tez to attack for the kill once infi turns are already up.  That is, a win-con that will never win the game without a better one already in place.  Arguably, Tez is win-more once Bargain is in play but is not itself a "win-more" card.

[honestabe]

How is a win condition "win-more?"  

Because Desire and Bargain are weak in a deck not designed to abuse them.

"Win-more" is a card that only helps when you're already winning.  In the control mirror, if both decks are in topdeck mode, a player who resolves Bargain simply wins.

So does Tezz, and he's useful in other scenarios than a control deck in topdeck mode. 

Playing bargain in a drain deck doesn't make sense.  BB harder to get up than UU.  Have you ever played Tezz and/or TPS?  They're quite different beasts. 

Also, for bargain to be immediatly useful you need to have a LOT of mana up, as well as a healthy life total, and draw the correct cards.  Say you're intopdeck mode, and you have 10 life (your own confidant/enemy creatures, fetches, thoughtsieze, etc.)  You bargain for 9, and see 3 land, a confidant, time walk, 2 counters, a bob, and a hurkyls recall.  Whoopdy freaking doo.  You're screwed, where if that were Tezz, you could just pass and win.

I'm not saying Bargain can't win games in Tezz, but why wouldn't you just run Tezz, because he'll win you more than bargain will, and is just plain better in a Tezzeret shell.

[TopSecret]

"Win-more" is a card that only helps when you're already winning.  In the control mirror, if both decks are in topdeck mode, a player who resolves Bargain simply wins.

As a semantic point, a win-con would have to be extremely weak to be win-more.  Ie. Mons Goblin Raiders in place of Tez to attack for the kill once infi turns are already up.  That is, a win-con that will never win the game without a better one already in place.  Arguably, Tez is win-more once Bargain is in play but is not itself a "win-more" card.

This, as you said, is just semantics. It's the interactions in the deck and the possible interactions in the overall system of Vintage combined with all natural laws of our universe that determine which card is better in the given scenario.

The literal reason for Tezzeret being better than Bargain in Drain Control decks is too long to list on these boards in a way that can't be misconstrued if you are picky about the choice of words.

But to disambiguate, the word win-more can be used to suggest that a card does more than it needs to to win the game in the given situation, which will generally mean that the card will cost more since more effects usually cost more, which will then mean that the card is inefficient compared to the alternative. In this case, the idea presented is that Bargain is win more because even though its effect can at times be more impressive than Tezzeret, such extra effects are more often irrelevant with the end result being the same as casting Tezzeret. This means the extra effects of Bargain are not worth the extra mana the majority of the time, so Tezzeret is better while Bargain is win-more because it uses more resources than necessary to put the player in a position to win the game.

[AmbivalentDuck]

This, as you said, is just semantics. It's the interactions in the deck and the possible interactions in the overall system of Vintage combined with all natural laws of our universe that determine which card is better in the given scenario.

Arguments about "better" aside, I'd argue that Bargain is NEVER win-more in Tez unless infi turns are already up.   And at that point, Ancestral Recall is also win-more.

The literal reason for Tezzeret being better than Bargain in Drain Control decks is too long to list on these boards in a way that can't be misconstrued if you are picky about the choice of words.

5 vs 6 mana.  Blue vs black.  Utility against Workshops vs crying about Sphere effects.  Did I miss anything?

...so Tezzeret is better while Bargain is win-more because it uses more resources than necessary to put the player in a position to win the game.

That's debatable since one wins now while the other wins later.  Ie. Is Time Walk win-more if Suspend-1 Time Walk gets printed at U?

Win-more cards have traditional been defined as cards that are only good when you're already winning.  A "classic" example would be Berserking Hellkite Overlord in Oath.  I don't think you can put Yawg Bargain into this category.  

[Will]

I thought that the reason you don't run Bargain or Desire in Drain decks was that in Drain builds you run X Drain along with Forces/ Duresses etc.  What this means in general is that you are more likely to fizzle on smaller desperation Desires (4-5) and would rather get another card that will win you the game like Tezz especially when you play more control elements.  For me it boils down to worse Desires/Bargains because you play more control cards and the fact that holding your opponent off for a turn so that you can win with Tezz is much more reasonable. 

[Rico Suave]

It is really just a matter of focus.

Tezzeret allows a Vault/Key deck to win with a nice compact and self-contained win condition.  Having a single copy of Tezz in your control deck allows you to tutor for it and leverage card advantage into a win.  

Bargain/Desire do not win consistently with Vault/Key as your win.  It is likely that if you want to win with one of the former cards that you need to run Tendrils.  

Tezz supports Vault/Key like Bargain/Desire support Tendrils.  Asking why Vault/Key decks don't use Bargain is like asking why they don't use Lightning Bolt (except for Smmenen).  These cards represent what happens when the design process causes the deck's goals to be lost.

Once again, it is about focus.  What does your deck do?  If you lack focus, you could end up with wrong cards that support the wrong things.  Even worse, you could end up with 2 conflicting goals.  

Then go ahead and throw in Bargain, Desire, Tezz, Vault, Key, and Tendrils into your control deck.  And when you open your starting 7 and see this:
-Desire
-Land
-Land
-Mox
-Drain
-Tendrils
-Vault

You will know why it is bad to have a deck that lacks focus.  

[Oath of Happy]

Tezzeret can win the turn he is cast for 5 mana if you have time vault in play, and 6 mana if you have key in play.

[Diakonov]

Though probably a corner case, it's worth noting that even if Bargain finds you Vault/Key, extra turns don't net you extra cards with Bargain out, and it's possible to lock yourself out of draw steps without a kill card, (especially against decks that attack apply pressure to the life tota.l)  Tezz, on the other hand, is a self contained win condition, which while not optimal, can give you additional outs in a Sadistic Sacrament type situation.

Just wanted to highlight this here, because I think it is a crucial reason.  Bargain also becomes a lot worse when using the Bob shell, where I often find myself at less than 10 life by the time I cast Tezz (or as the case may be, would cast Bargain).

[DubDub]

How is a win condition "win-more?"  

Because Desire and Bargain are weak in a deck not designed to abuse them.

"Win-more" is a card that only helps when you're already winning.  In the control mirror, if both decks are in topdeck mode, a player who resolves Bargain simply wins.

As a semantic point, a win-con would have to be extremely weak to be win-more.  Ie. Mons Goblin Raiders in place of Tez to attack for the kill once infi turns are already up.  That is, a win-con that will never win the game without a better one already in place.  Arguably, Tez is win-more once Bargain is in play but is not itself a "win-more" card.

I was the first one to use 'win-more' in this thread, and I was talking about Desire, not Bargain, so I don't know why you shifted the discussion while objecting to the same term.  Here's a correction:
"In the control mirror, if both decks are in topdeck mode, a player who draws Desire loses more games than the player who draws Tezzeret."

Impulse is better in a Drain shell than Desire.  New Jace is better in a Drain shell than Desire.  Etc.

[honestabe]

That's debatable since one wins now while the other wins later.

No.  Since drain decks aren't DESIGNED to abuse Bargain, they lack the fast mana to make it immediatly usefull.  You're more likely to have vault or key on the field and win instantly with tezz, than you are to have enough mana to make Bargain useful.

Here's the series of events with A) Bargain and B) Tezz

A) Play bargain, and pass.  Untap, draw a bunch of cards (If you have enough life), hope to get time vault and voltaic key, as well as a way to reduce your opponent's life total to 0, without getting Bargain-locked

B) Play Tezz, fetch up time vault, pass.  Untap, and win.
-OR, if you already have vault or key in play, just win

[Grand Inquisitor]

I think the discussion here has gotten a little sloppy.

drain decks aren't DESIGNED to abuse Bargain

A number of drain decks have been designed to abuse bargain, just not the current Tezzeret builds.

Also, in the A&B scenarios, it's very possible that your time vault will get nuked or your Tezz gets fired.  However, Bargain may draw you into a win condition as well as FoW or others that will protect your advantage.  Make no mistake, Bargain is a very powerful card with the right support.

Also, impulse should not be part of a discussion with Desire since the magnitude of effect and mana cost is so different.  They're not likely to compete for the same slot.

[Purple Hat]

A) Play bargain, and pass.  Untap, draw a bunch of cards (If you have enough life), hope to get time vault and voltaic key, as well as a way to reduce your opponent's life total to 0, without getting Bargain-locked

Why would anyone use bargain like this?  it doesn't say "on your turn"  it says "pay 1 life, draw 1 card"  how about: play bargain, draw to 7 check if you can win.  if not:  pass, if opponent does something you care about: draw until you can stop him.  If not go to your turn, rinse repeat.

with an engine in play that ensures that you always have at least 7 cards in hand and lets you draw at will it's awefuly hard to lose with any deck.  You don't use bargain the same way in a non-storm deck, but it's still an absolute beast.

I wouldn't play it because it costs BB and I don't play rituals, but that's pretty much the only reason.

Desire is amazing when it turns over sorceries and active spells, but pretty bad when it turns over reactive spells.

[Bunbury]

Bargain is an option over Tez in some control shells. One more mana (albeit at BB versus UU) for something that's equally likely to meet permission and will likely win you the game on resolution. Desire, however, if you're running Drain and FoW, that's 8 cards in your deck that are pretty blank to Desire into. Tez is a literal win-condition though, as you can make all your mana artifacts beat down, as opposed to Bargain, which will dig quite deep for the wincon, but cannot win you the game. I think that's why Tez gets the nod a lot

[Grand Inquisitor]

Bargain...something that's likely to meet permission

Ah yes.


The other point on Mind's Desire made above isn't the number of reactive spells (which may be comparable to TPS) but that the 'good' flips will be dark confidant or TFK instead of Timetwister or Tendrils.

[failtofind]

           The best way to play bargain is to flip it off minds desire, so just play both!  i would love it if control players put more cards they cant cast in their decks, as opposed to cards that are combo pieces, tutors and win conditions all in one lol Everyone knows i love tps more than anyone, but i would never throw those cards in control.

[meadbert]

The argument claiming Tez has too many cards that are mana/reactive to make Desire worth it may be a fallacious argument.
TPS generally runs as many reactive/mana cards than Tez does.

Tez has a few extra lands and Drains, but TPS runs 6 Rituals and an extract piece of artifact acceration or 2.

Lists with Pierces change that somewhat.

[failtofind]

tps also runs more tutors, and memory jar. and timetwister.

[Rico Suave]

I just want to clarify something real quick.  If one were to just take a standard Bob-Tezz list and throw in Desire, of course it will suck. 

But that does not mean Desire sucks in all control shells.  Watskeburt is evidence that Desire can be at home in control.  If you opt to run cards like Repeal for control, throw in F.Search/Gush/FoF for draw, and make a few other adjustments like adding a storm kill mechanism then the Desire is actually very, very powerful.

The fact there are a variety of different ways to approach "Drain Control" is perhaps a bit confusing to this discussion.

[TheBrassMan]

Watskeburt is evidence that Desire can be at home in control

Without trying to derail the thread into a discussion about the best named deck ever, I was disappointed with Mind's Desire even in Watskeburt, and I feel the fact that it gets you to play cards like Gush and Frantic Search are another count against it

[Smmenen]

I have been struggling to figure out why Tez is played so often, but Bargain and Desire basically never show up in Drain shells.

The obvious answer is that Bargain and Desire cost 1 extra mana, but their relative power level seem to justify that extra mana.
Bargain has the drawback of not being able to pitch to Force, but Desire does.
Bargain's other drawback is that losing a lot of life and having to pass the turn is bad if you are staring down creatures, but Tez is also pretty bad in that situation.
The final advantage is that Tez is a win condition where Bargain and Desire are not.

Are Bargain and Desire underplayed?
Is Tez overplayed?
Is that 1 extra mana cost that important?
Is the fact that Tez is a win condition that important?
Am I missing some other crucial advantage of Tez?

Is Necropotence under played?   What about Timetwister or Wheel of Fortune?   I'm not sure I understand why are you asking these questions. 

[meadbert]

Basically I have detected in inconsistency in my thinking.

I have three assumptions that I cannot reconcile.

I consider Bargain and Desire to be better than Tez in general. (If this is False, then perhaps Vault/Key/Tez need to be tested more in TPS)
I see no compelling reason why Bargain and Desire do not have synergy in a shell with Forces and Drains. (This is most likely the faulty assumption)
Tez seems to be better than Bargain and Desire in Drain/Force combo/control decks. (If false, then perhaps Bargain/Desire need to be tested with Drains)

So far I have not come across a satisfactory resolution.  Perhaps the answer is the combination of several factors.

The extra 1cc of cost is relevant, but if it were so important I would expect Tez to be good in TPS.  TPS can ritual out Tez pretty fast after all.
BB is certainly relevant for Bargain, but Force/Drain control decks should have BB up by the time they have 6 mana and this argument does not apply to Desire.
That Bargain does not pitch to Force is relevant, but that is just as bad for TPS which runs a full set of Forces and a Misdirection.

I interpret win more as meaning why pay 6 to win with Bargain/Desire when you could have just payed 5 to win with Tez.  If that is the case, then again I would expect Tez to be good in TPS.

The win condition argument is certainly relevant, but since TPS already runs fewer win conditions than Tez, one would expect TPS could use Tez as an extra win condition as well.

I disagree about Bargain and Desire being bad in decks not design to abuse them.  Basically the hurdle for Bargain is paying for it which Drains work fine for.
For Desire you have the cost and Storm which Drain decks against do just fine at.  Once those hurdles are reached most decks would like to draw 10 cards for 10 life or flip over 5 cards to be played for free.  If Fish could easily Storm for 6 and pay for Desire, then Desire would be good in Fish.

I am not sure any of these cards are great against Shops where they ought to stop you from getting to 5-6 mana.
Note that Mana Drain is better positioned than Dark Ritual to pay for Desire or Bargain.  Draining a Golem  on turn 2 into Bargain can easily happen and following up EOT Rebuild with Desire or Bargain is very powerful.

Still, BB gets very tough against Shops and given that paying for any of these spells is tough, being blue is more important so you can pitch to Force.

I already addressed why I don't buy the fizzle argument.  Basically TPS runs as much mana/reaction as Tez.  The fizzle issue must be explained through a declaration that Drains do not Storm for as much as Rituals do thus the real problem is lower storm and not a lower density of business spells.

Tez can win the turn he is cast, but I dare say the same is true for Bargain and Desire so that counts for nothing.

Bobs might not make sense with Desire and Bargain, but there is no reason you must run Bobs.  Basically if you want to run Bargain or Desire (or both) in a Drain shell then you probably do not want Bobs.  Once the Bobs are out you only have one win condition in your Tinker target.  This could be resolved by a second Tinker target or by Tendrils/Warrens.

Necro does not work with Drains since BBB is too tough to get to to play it quickly.
Wheel and Twister may very well be underplayed.  Basically as Drain decks run more permanents and as they are based more around dropping permanents rather than sculpting hands, then Draw 7s become better.  Basically you can drop a Key/Top and then cast your draw 7 losing fewer cards from your hand.

If Tez is as bad as I basically think it is then could a Tez deck drop Tez + 4xBob and add Desire/Bargain/Tendrils/Twister/Wheel?
If Tez is better than Bargain and Desire then could TPS drop Bargain/Desire/1xTendrils and add Tez/Vault/Key?

Most likely Tez, Bargain and Desire are fairly similar in power and the ability to get to BB or Storm with Ritual is just enough to push Bargain and Desire over the top in TPS.

[Rico Suave]

Most likely Tez, Bargain and Desire are fairly similar in power and the ability to get to BB or Storm with Ritual is just enough to push Bargain and Desire over the top in TPS.

Just a nitpick, but I'd say they are clearly nowhere near each other in terms of power.  Bargain and Desire are worlds beyond Tezzeret in terms of power, which should be evidenced by their restriction and the fact Tezz is not.  But power level is not everything when it comes to designing a deck, and other factors like synergy and the metagame must be taken into account. 

RE: BrassMan

Without trying to derail the thread into a discussion about the best named deck ever, I was disappointed with Mind's Desire even in Watskeburt, and I feel the fact that it gets you to play cards like Gush and Frantic Search are another count against it

Yes, I wasn't necessarily saying it was the best approach when making a control deck.  Then again, it starts to cross into the world of combo pretty quickly. 

I viewed Mind's Desire more as a bomb that will dominate control mirrors if you have a copy of it in your deck.  This was a lot more relevant before Zendikar was released.  I'll just leave it at that.