GWSx: Ritual combo after the printing of Lodestone Golem

[Duncan]

This weekend I made t8 in a 42 player tournament in the Netherlands (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40185.msg555361#new). There were a lot of Lodestone Golem decks, but I came well prepared for them. Round 3 I won 2-1 against the player who won the Lotus with MUD in the side event of GP: Madrid, round 4 I won 2-1 against the player who eventually lost in the finals, round 5 I was 1-0 in games before my opponent (the eventual winner) finally accepted my offer to draw, round 6 I ID-ed with my opponent, but beat him 2-1 in a friendly match. In the t8 I had to play the eventual winner again and lost 2-1, due to my opening of land, mox, Confidant on the play not getting me a land for two turns while he had a triple Golem opener.

Here's the list I played:

GWSx for a MUD-heavy meta
Suggested by Duncan Keijzer of Team R&D

4 Dark Confidant
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Mind's Desire
1 Timetwister
1 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild

4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn

The major changes with regards to older lists are:
- cutting red for the stable 2-color manabase
- going up to 14 lands
- running 5 basics
- swapping duress for thoughtseize to grab Golem
- going up to 3 Hurkyl's Recall and 1 Rebuild maindeck

Lodestone Golem has changed the way combo has to fight shop decks. Before it was printed, Workshop decks either played spheres or put pressure on you. If they put pressure on you, you generally were no disrupted very much so it was easy to combo out. If they played spheres, the game slowed down and you used to have enough time to build up a stable manabase, find your bounce spell and empty their board at end of turn. With the printing of Golem we can throw these plans out of the window. Golem does both things at the same time, you are disrupted and face a quick clock. This means that you do not have the time to tutor for your bounce anymore, which is why I played so many maindeck. Hurkyl's of course has several other well-known utilities, like getting rid of Null Rod, buying a turn against Vault+Key, removing Tinkered-in robots and upping the storm count. The latter one is fairly important, since you'll have to play out your artifacts as soon as you can. Double Hurkyl's is not unusual, and after bouncing their board at their end of turn, you'll bounce your own to be able to go off.

Because of the abundance of spheres you can not afford to miss a land drop. This may result in never getting the chance to play a bounce spell at all. That's the reason I decided to go up to 14 lands and 5 basics, since wasteland otherwise almost equals missing a land drop as well.

For this tournament I ran the following sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Island
1 Bayou
1 Tinker
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Massacre

My current boarding plan for shops is:
-1 Mind's Desire, -1 Lotus Petal, -2 Duress
+1 Hurkyl's Recall, +1 Island, +1 Tinker, +1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

I've tested the matchup quite a bit against my teammate Guus (Mantis), an expert on Workshop Aggro and known for his work on the archetype over the past years. The matchup is about 50/50, where winning the die-roll is extremely important. If you play first, you can drop your moxen and confidant unhindered and therefore gain cardadvantage and build up your board/hand for the bounce-plan, you will win most of these games. If you are on the draw, there's a big chance you'll get locked out by plays like turn 1 Golem, turn 2 Golem/Tangle Wire/Sculpting Steel. You'll lose most of these games.

Without losing a lot of %-points against the rest of the field, this deck is finetuned for the MUD-match. I recommend this deck to any combo player facing a meta dominated by Lodestone Golem.

- Duncan

EDIT: added these links for reference:

Background

Previous GWSx threads:
The original TMD thread in the open forum (June 2008): http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35930.0
The improvement forum thread (January 2010): http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39460.0

Tournament reports:
My tournament report (June 2008): http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36095.0
Soly's tournament report (March 2009): http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37590.0
My tournament report (April 2009): http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37738.0
My tournament report (December 2009): http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39493.0

[desolutionist]

The best strategy Rituals can have for beating Stax is with Hurkyl's Recalls, Force of Wills, and basic lands.  This deck doesn't have Force of Wills.  So you ought not to play "GWSx Ritual combo" in a Stax dominated metagame.

[Marske]

The best strategy Rituals can have for beating Stax is with Hurkyl's Recalls, Force of Wills, and basic lands.  This deck doesn't have Force of Wills.  So you ought not to play "GWSx Ritual combo" in a Stax dominated metagame.

Didn't Duncan just prove that not running Force of Will in combo is completely viable by getting a top 8 finish in a lodestone infected Meta, beating Lodestone fueled shop decks not once or twice but three times?!

@Duncan,
When are we getting that long promised primer on GWSx?! Awesome that you're starting the discussion up again though.

[Duncan]

The best strategy Rituals can have for beating Stax is with Hurkyl's Recalls, Force of Wills, and basic lands.  This deck doesn't have Force of Wills.  So you ought not to play "GWSx Ritual combo" in a Stax dominated metagame.

You might as well replace Force of Will with Dark Confidant in the above statement. Dark Confidant is a permanent for their Tangle Wires, a draw engine and a semi-win condition, while it also is not affected by Thorn of Amethyst. It can also serve as a chump blocker for Golem to get the extra turn (land drop) you need to combo out. Dark Confidant on its own goes a long way in improving the Shop matchup for Ritual decks.

I agree that Force of Will is strong against Shop decks. However, ritual decks have to struggle to play enough blue cards to support Force of Will. If your deck starts with 4 Dark Ritual and 4 Dark Confidant getting to the 18 required blue cards severely constrains your deckbuilding options (although some Italians have done this with good results). Not to mention the lifeloss that results from flipping FoW with Bob. This deck is centered around Dark Confidant, one can choose to play with Force of Will but that would lead to an entirely different deck.

Both my testing and tournament performance proved this is a viable deck choice for a Golem-heavy meta. Therefore your post seems out of place to me. I am willing do discuss and/or elaborate on any part of the deck, but just saying that Force of Will is good against Stax, this deck does not run Force of Will and thus is not good against Shops is not something I can do a lot with.

[Odd mutation]

Well said Duncan and congratulations with the great finish... again!

I used to agree with Desolusionist a little bit however: I was missing Force of Will a lot in the end as well and by consequensce was thinking about changing to TPS. But now you're playing 3 extra Hurkyl's Recall! That must make a big difference!!
I'm used to thinking about Hurkyl's Recall as solely a sideboard option too much I guess. I'll pick this deck up again soon!

I'm also waiting on that primer. I've been playing GWSx a lot and understand it pretty well but I can always do with some extra pointers from an expert.

My playtesting revealed that I REALLY liked 1 Ad Nauseam. Did you try it? I was a little bit disappointed in Necropotence -even though it is one of my all time favourite cards. Would you ever consider changing it for an Ad Nauseam? Or is it just uncuttable?

The Sadistic Sacraments have moved to my sideboard as well...

I can see you also play an extra Cabal ritual...

Greetings,

Robrecht

P.S. edited a million times for spelling...

[Evenpence]

I'm going to proxy this up and see how it fares vs. my mono red stax (I run Lodestone Golem in it) with me as both players.  I'll test something like 50 or 100 games and get back to you with my results.

Do you have Sphinx in as your beater for the fish matchup?  I've found other robots to be better vs. Stax (only reason I'm asking).

[Duncan]

I used to agree with Desolusionist a little bit however: I was missing Force of Will a lot in the end as well and by consequensce was thinking about changing to TPS. But now you're playing 3 extra Hurkyl's Recall! That must make a big difference!!

Like I said in the opening post the changes in workshop decks has caused GWSx to evolve as well. Running 3 Hurkyl's and 1 Rebuild main feels good when facing workshops.

I'm also waiting on that primer. I've been playing GWSx a lot and understand it pretty well but I can always do with some extra pointers from an expert.

I'm glad to hear you picked up the deck and like it. I don't think I'll write a primer in the near future, since I'm teriibly busy with some other things. However, reading all of my reports and the old GWSx threads should give you a good view of what has been tested, how to address different matchups and general plays with the deck. And you can always pm me if you have any specific questions.

My playtesting revealed that I REALLY liked 1 Ad Nauseam. Did you try it? I was a little bit disappointed in Necropotence -even though it is one of my all time favourite cards. Would you ever consider changing it for an Ad Nauseam? Or is it just uncuttable?

I've played the deck with a single copy of Ad Nauseam in the past. It's an early tutorable combo-enabler when you're afraid of Misdirection and your graveyard is not yet ready for a big Yawgmoth's Will turn. It's use in this deck is fairly limited however, and I've cut it for other cards. I still keep it in the back of my head everytime I rethink the decklist though. I'd never cut Necropotence from the deck. Turn 1 Ritual Necropotence is so insane.

I'm going to proxy this up and see how it fares vs. my mono red stax (I run Lodestone Golem in it) with me as both players.  I'll test something like 50 or 100 games and get back to you with my results.

I'm interested in your results. Please note that if you're running a more stax-oriented deck (with Crucibles / Welders) my sideboard plan is not the same as versus AggroMUD. Feel free to pm me regarding the sideboard plan versus your specific build.

Do you have Sphinx in as your beater for the fish matchup?  I've found other robots to be better vs. Stax (only reason I'm asking).

It's in there for both Fish and Shop aggro. Since this deck can cause quite a bit of damage to itself with Confidants, Fetchlands and Thoughtseizes the combination of vigilance and lifelink synergizes well with the rest of the deck.

[pierce]

aside from Twaun, i can't think of any shop players that run chalice of the void. why then, would you maindeck the rebuild in such a sphere heavy metagame?

[Marske]

@Pierce,
If you looked at the results Duncan posted you could have seen that 3 of the Shop lists shown to be in top 8 all had 4x Chalice of the Void maindeck, Just about every shop deck in our meta game runs them, making rebuild all the more valuable.

[Rico Suave]

aside from Twaun, i can't think of any shop players that run chalice of the void. why then, would you maindeck the rebuild in such a sphere heavy metagame?

I can't think of any Shop players who don't run Chalice of the Void. =)

[Evenpence]

aside from Twaun, i can't think of any shop players that run chalice of the void. why then, would you maindeck the rebuild in such a sphere heavy metagame?

I think every workshop list I've seen from the past 2-3 months (I haven't looked back further than that, sorry) has run a full playset of CotV.

I'm thinking about taking them out of my mono-red stax list that also runs Null Rod.  The pieces seem quasi-redundant for a welder deck.  I don't believe the two pieces are redundant, Chalice is very good when you have Null Rod out, as you can set it @ 1, 2, or 3 to limit bounce and other powerful spells (like Tinker).

I don't have room for Chalice, Null Rod, and Sphere of Resistance.  I like how Null Rod stops artifact mana once it's out, although it has a bit of anti-synergy with Smokestack.  Null Rod is fantastic when combined with Sphere of Resistance, however.

Chalice is kind of the oddball card of Stax in my opinion.  It might win you a game because you decided to hit Chalice @ 2 turn 1 when your opponent was holding Drains, Oath, Hurkyll's Recall and Merchant Scroll, but no Force.  Obviously against decks like Fish, Chalice @ 2 and 3 are amazing and there are very few cards that rival it's power.

Of course, this exact scenario is rare, but Chalice isn't really a boa-constrictor type lock.  It's more of an oddball card that will help you win games by creating card advantage, and often cases creating tempo for beaters to do the job, but it rarely (if ever) contributes to achieving a hard lock.

I see Chalice, Null Rod, and Sphere of Resistance as all vying for the same slot in Stax.  Three or four years ago, we didn't have Lodestone Golem and a few other cards, so the deck could play all three if you wanted.  It's my opinion that Lodestone Golem makes Null Rod and Sphere of Resistance much better while making Chalice of the Void slightly worse.  I can explain that position further, but I've typed up way too much already and need to head out. 

[pierce]

well fuck. i'm dumb and wrong then.

thats what happens when i've only gotten to play 2 vintage tournaments in the past 6 months 

[Duncan]

Why then, would you maindeck the rebuild in such a sphere heavy metagame?

Besides chalice for two there are some other reasons to run Rebuild:
1. You can cycle it if your hand is full of global bounce (and you don't fear chalice for 2 at this point, or have Chain of Vapor)
2. I'll tutor for it over Hurkyl's Recall if I have the mana to cast it. Because of Tangle Wire you will cast your bounce most of the time in your upkeep, which constrains your mana in your main phase a bit. Rebuild overcomes this by bouncing your own jewelry and it is like 2-4 free storm count.

[M.Solymossy]

Congrats on the finish!


The list is eeriely similar to mine.

4 Bob
3 10Drills
1 Will
1 Necro
1 Mystical
1 Demonic
1 Vamp
1 Consult
1 Walk
1 Recall
1 BS
1 Ponder
1 Sensei's Top
1 Minds Desire
1 Timetwister
1 Ad Naseum
1 Chain of vapor
1 Rebuild
2 Hurkyls Recall
3 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
4 Drit
3 Crit
5 Mox
1 Crypt
1 sol Ring
1 Lotus
1 Petal
3 Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Delta
2 Strand
1 Mire

[Killane]

Why is this better than TPS?

Differences:

TPS
- 1 Cabal Ritual
+1 Mana Vault
- 3 Thoughseize
+2 Duress
-2 Maindeck Hurkyl's
-2 Tendrils
+4 Force of Will
-Adnausem
-Consult
+Grim
+Bargain
-4 Bob
+Tinker/Robot
+Jar
+Gifts
-1 USea
+1Academy

I guess the Maindeck bounce and Confidants are better vs Shops, but TPS seems to have more Raw power and Tinker as a better plan B than beating with Bob, and can have just as much bounce post-board. I like the look of this deck, and certainly can't claim a ton of success vs Lodestone.dec with TPS, but I can;t intellectualize why this list is better than TPS. Help!

[honestabe]

Why is this better than TPS?

It's MUCH more resilient than TPS, and Bobs beating down makes the storm you need to win a lot less, which makes it easier to combo out against Stax and other disruptive decks.  Also, drawing 2-3 cards a turn from Bob(s) makes hand disruption hurt less.

[Killane]

Why is this better than TPS?

It's MUCH more resilient than TPS, and Bobs beating down makes the storm you need to win a lot less, which makes it easier to combo out against Stax and other disruptive decks.  Also, drawing 2-3 cards a turn from Bob(s) makes hand disruption hurt less.

Can you expand on the Resiliancy Thing?

[honestabe]

Why is this better than TPS?

It's MUCH more resilient than TPS, and Bobs beating down makes the storm you need to win a lot less, which makes it easier to combo out against Stax and other disruptive decks.  Also, drawing 2-3 cards a turn from Bob(s) makes hand disruption hurt less.

Can you expand on the Resiliancy Thing?

The deck allows you to take your time, and come from behind.  the confidants are really the key, I suppose. 

Against shops, sometime you can resolve two of them quickly and just race the shops deck, having one out doubles your chance of drawing a bounce spell, and the can be slipped under a thorn, they're a permanent to be tapped, to tangle wire, or sacked to  old smokey instead of your land

Against fish, they once again double your chance of grabbing an infest/chain of vapor, and can block attacking Goyfs

Against Control, they allow you to keep up with your opponent's card advantage.  Sometimes you can get out 2 confidants and a top and just let them counter all the bombs you rip, while beating down with them.

[Killane]

how can you race a Golem with Bob?

[Evenpence]

how can you race a Golem with Bob?

Mirror Universe.

[honestabe]

how can you race a Golem with Bob?

Well, against a more aggro-oriented shops deck, obv you can't race, but against slower lists, (5 Color) a couple early confidants can race

[M.Solymossy]

how can you race a Golem with Bob?

Bobs make permanents to tap to tangle wire, to keep your lands down.
Bobs make you put more cards into your hand.  More cards equal a greater chance at hitting more lands/bounce.


GWSx doesn't need a backup.  You beat down with bobs, you tendrils them.  It's pretty straightforward.


And how is this better than TPS you ask?

Well, I know I've won 6 pieces of power with GWSx, and I know Duncan has done his fair share of winning with it.  It really comes down to playstyle, really.   Every card you draw with GWSx is good, whereas with TPS, sometimes you draw desire or bargain or jar when you really have no business doing such.   I've won in such obscure gamestates with GWSx.

[islanderboi10]

I have been playing TPS for the last 5 months, and I really am considering switching to GWSx. I really like the deck and I really like how it plays out. BUT, my meta has Oath and Noble Fish in it. So, my question to you is, how does this deck do against Fish and Oath?
We do have a fair amount of shops as well, but Noble Fish and Oath won the last 4 tournaments here (Washington).

Thanks!

P.S. Congrats on your finishes Duncan.

[Killane]

what does GWSx stand for?

[Duncan]

I have been playing TPS for the last 5 months, and I really am considering switching to GWSx. I really like the deck and I really like how it plays out. BUT, my meta has Oath and Noble Fish in it. So, my question to you is, how does this deck do against Fish and Oath?
We do have a fair amount of shops as well, but Noble Fish and Oath won the last 4 tournaments here (Washington).

Thanks!

P.S. Congrats on your finishes Duncan.

Thanks.

Remember that Ritual Combo is historically one of Oath's worst matchups. Spell Pierce has given them a boost in the matchup, but you should still be ok. As long as they do not drop a turn 1 Oath the matchup is quite ok, I'll even drop Confidants against them to kick for 2 and draw more cards. Post board you get Sacrament which will help quite a lot.

Noble Fish is doable as well. I think I've never lost a match against either BUG or Noble Fish in a tournament setting. Their Spell Pierces can't hit your Confidant and you manabase is designed to beat mana denial.

[Evenpence]

I have been playing TPS for the last 5 months, and I really am considering switching to GWSx. I really like the deck and I really like how it plays out. BUT, my meta has Oath and Noble Fish in it. So, my question to you is, how does this deck do against Fish and Oath?
We do have a fair amount of shops as well, but Noble Fish and Oath won the last 4 tournaments here (Washington).

Thanks!

P.S. Congrats on your finishes Duncan.

Thanks.

Remember that Ritual Combo is historically one of Oath's worst matchups. Spell Pierce has given them a boost in the matchup, but you should still be ok. As long as they do not drop a turn 1 Oath the matchup is quite ok, I'll even drop Confidants against them to kick for 2 and draw more cards. Post board you get Sacrament which will help quite a lot.

Noble Fish is doable as well. I think I've never lost a match against either BUG or Noble Fish in a tournament setting. Their Spell Pierces can't hit your Confidant and you manabase is designed to beat mana denial.

Quick question:  No Tolarian Academy?  Even running the risk of the legend rule or opening up to wasteland, the risk is worth it when Academy nets you a ton of mana.  I don't see why the deck isn't running it.

EDIT:  I've been goldfishing with the decklist you have above and I'm pretty impressed with it's consistency.  I normally goldfish turn 3-4 although I have had some turn 1/2 kills.  It mulligans really well and I think aggressive mulligans can be great with this deck.

Other than goldfishing, I've played about 20 preboard games vs. stax.  What I've noticed is that the deck is very consistent with getting mass bounce, which is awesome, but sometimes it's too hard to cast even for 2 mana vs. a load of spheres.  Spheres really, really hurt.  There's also the problem of needing to cast it at too early a time.  It also doesn't help that there are only 14 lands maindeck (I know you said that you went up, but I still feel really mana light for some reason, maybe it's just my draws), so sometimes I just get mana screwed.  Bob and draw help with this greatly -- I'm going to try aggressive mulliganing into a Bob or 2+ basic land/fetchland combinations next round of playtesting.

Turn 1 duress/thoughtseize is much better vs. stax than I originally thought it was going to be, honestly, I might want to go 4 thoughtseize / 1 duress for more chance to take Lodestones or Welders.  The life loss might be an issue in Fish, I haven't tested that matchup yet.  

Bob is an absolute all-star in this deck, he really holds it together.

I also think the 3rd Cabal Ritual is a bit much -- it could probably be some other broken card and serve the deck better.  I'm going to test out Imperial Seal in that slot.

[honestabe]

I think the lack of Tolarian was a metagame call, and lack of imperial seal was also one.

When you're expecting that much Shops, it's probably right to keep up the basic land count, and imperial seal could easily be cut for some extra mass bounce, because odds are you'll just be tutoring for it anyway.

That being said, I run both of those cards whenever I play the deck and they're awesome

[Duncan]

I like to start with saying that I'm glad the deck has gotten a bit more attention and people actively discussing certain card choices

It mulligans really well and I think aggressive mulligans can be great with this deck.

I like to highlight this. With this deck I mulligan more aggresive than with almost any deck I have played. I always ship back hands that do not have a plan. Your 6 or 5 can be real good and often better than a weak 7.

Other than goldfishing, I've played about 20 preboard games vs. stax.  What I've noticed is that the deck is very consistent with getting mass bounce, which is awesome, but sometimes it's too hard to cast even for 2 mana vs. a load of spheres.  Spheres really, really hurt.  There's also the problem of needing to cast it at too early a time.  It also doesn't help that there are only 14 lands maindeck (I know you said that you went up, but I still feel really mana light for some reason, maybe it's just my draws), so sometimes I just get mana screwed.  Bob and draw help with this greatly -- I'm going to try aggressive mulliganing into a Bob or 2+ basic land/fetchland combinations next round of playtesting.

I did not have trouble hitting land drops in most games. Adding more lands to the deck might make you run out of gas sometime.

Turn 1 duress/thoughtseize is much better vs. stax than I originally thought it was going to be, honestly, I might want to go 4 thoughtseize / 1 duress for more chance to take Lodestones or Welders.  The life loss might be an issue in Fish, I haven't tested that matchup yet. 

That is an option, but the lifeloss has me a bit hesitant about this.

Bob is an absolute all-star in this deck, he really holds it together.

This is the deck designed to take maximum advantage of him, he is the MVP.

I also think the 3rd Cabal Ritual is a bit much -- it could probably be some other broken card and serve the deck better.  I'm going to test out Imperial Seal in that slot.

It is indeed one of the more open slots. It might as well be a second Top for example, or a Tolarian Academy if you like to run an extra land. Tolarian itself is not in the list because of its vulnerability to Wasteland and the low amounts of blue/colorless mana this deck used to need. With the more bounce in the deck it could deserve a spot again. I'll try this soon.

[desolutionist]

Every card you draw with GWSx is good, whereas with TPS, sometimes you draw desire or bargain or jar when you really have no business doing such.

I love drawing Desire or Bargain!  I hate drawing Cabal Ritual, Tendrils of Agony, and Dark Confidant.

[M.Solymossy]

I designed GWSx with a plan in mind.  That plan was to beat Meandeck Gifts and Uba Stax.  Now, in the new meta, the plan is to beat Tezzeret, Fish, and Shop Aggro.  Dark Confidant does this all very well.  I'm super-excited that Duncan has taken over the project.  I think I will jump back on this soon.