Show and tell

[Kiriyuu]

Here is a random idea I had:

4 Personal Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Tinker
4 Show and tell
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sundering Titan
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Timewalk
4 Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp

You either find a tinker and make an inkwell or Titan, or find show and tell and make a huge man, depending on your hand.

This has had 0 testing, so I promise nothing!

What do you people think?

robert.

[silvernail]

Unless you can reliably have a big guy in hand I'd just run an Oath build and fit in a couple show and tell instead of trying to make it pure ST.

[Kiriyuu]

I just realized that it had 8 show and tell in it too, which isn't ideal!

Now it's got 4 more slots!

Yeah, I agree it's probably not the best engine, but it can make tinker quite reliably too, just something I was thinking about. (Maybe an excuse to dust off my personal tutors )

[TopSecret]

The problem with the list you've suggested is that it isn't faster than Oath, but it still sacrifices a lot to play Show and Tell.

You should have four Oaths before you play Show and Tell, because Oath costs one less.
You can play both. A deck with four of each might not be bad if built correctly.

[Kiriyuu]

I guess that's true, but oath requires your opponent having creatures, whilst show and tell requires you to have a large guy in hand. So they are a little different to each other really.

Maybe that's where show and tell and Eldrazi will be best though, in Oath.

[Cyberpunker]

I guess that's true, but oath requires your opponent having creatures, whilst show and tell requires you to have a large guy in hand. So they are a little different to each other really.

Maybe that's where show and tell and Eldrazi will be best though, in Oath.

Forbidden Orchard solves that problem...

[Kiriyuu]

Obviously! ^^

I meant that it's just a 2 card combo like Show and tell.

4 oath 4 SaT and tinker in a deck sounds like a way of getting huge monsters early and often though! :3

[LotusHead]

This cantrips, pitches to FoW, and can make an EOT Show and Tell -almost- sort of give the Fatty Eldrazi haste.

Also, EOT Duress is kinda hot.

[Malhavoc]

As a long-time oath player, who has tried many variants, I wouldn't skip the option of just SnT Oath.. of course this isn't a good move against decks with overcosted permanents, but it's a great way to slip an Oath through the opponent's countermagic, or just forcing him to waste a counter against SnT, and then just following with Oath itself. Sometime even jsut casting SnD as bait and following with Ancestrall or duress or whatever could be good if you know the opponent does not have many good permanents in his deck.

In a Oath-SnT deck, however, I would see Tyrant as a much better creature, thanks to its ability to immediately recover from the advantage gained by the opponent, bouncing his permanent (which is excellent against every possible opponent's drop, apart Sundering, Necro and Bargaign mainly).

SnTing an Oath is also great against meddling and Chalice, two cards which are otherwise VERY annoying against an Oath deck.

[Purple Hat]

I'm a firm believer that yawgmoth's bargain should go in a dedicated show and tell deck.  Kowal once convinced me that show and tell went into dedicated bargain decks like rector-trix.  The basic logic is: Who's gonna show something better than bargain?

[vassago]

In a Oath-SnT deck, however, I would see Tyrant as a much better creature,

I disagree. I think Terastadon would be much sicker.

Here's a sick play I have done recently, bait with show and tell, then follow with Oath. If show and tell resolves, they have no board.  Then Oath will most likely resove, leading you to have another elephant...or MORE.   

[Leooooh]

Oath seems better, and more solid

[Eye_of_the_Beholder]

The problem with this deck I think is in having a Show and Tell and no creature in hand or the other way around.
If you have the creature you have a lot of tutors to find a Show and Tell , the other way around you will have to use a tutor chain to find a creature.
I do think that 7 topdeck-tutors is way too much.
I think you could cut the personal tutors for New Jace to use the brainstorm-ability to find the necessary pieces. It gives the deck a bit of a draw engine.
I would add a Tolarian Academy cutting one of the basics, it wont make hardcasting Emrakul a reality but one of the robots is certainly manageable.
Library of Alexandria is another card to consider but keeping 7 cards when your plan is to use 8 duress-effects to control the opponent's options is a bit hard. If you go that route
add Mana Drain. Facilitates hardcasting fatties too

As an Oath-player, I do agree with the above posters that a combination of Oath of Druids and Show and Tell will probably work better in the end.


Greets,
Bart

[Malhavoc]

I haven't tested yet, but I have tried listing a deck working around this idea. I'll post the list if the tests are decent.

However, just to let someone else tinker around it if they feel like, my idea around this thing would be:

4 Show and Tell
4 Oath
4 Tyrants

4 Force of Will
2/3 Misdirection


As the above poster said, Show and Tell could not be so great without a big guy in hand, but show'n'telling an Oath on the field could be quite good as well, since you dodge any countermagic/chalice/meddling, bounce his chosen permanent the next turn anyway through tyrant, and could even fetch for basic island avoiding wastelands on the tropical.

More pitch counters to make the drawn Tyrants less of a problem.

..the rest is to be tested, I was thinking about Mystic Remora as a draw engine (weak against aggro, but this decks should stomp aggro). SnTing the Remora could even be a good move against control and control/combo decks.

I still think that in such shell tyrant is much better than emrakul, since negate snt' weakness, it's blue and pitchable, making the choice of running multiple a passable one, and given that it can hold the ground pretty well and be a very nice win condition of his own in a control or control/combo deck. Cards like cunning wish for freeze could be added to win faster, but we could even chose a more control - style win path.

[chrissss]

if you cast show and tell, who puts his permanent first? you or the opponent?

[vassago]

if you cast show and tell, who puts his permanent first? you or the opponent?

You do.

[Cyberpunker]

if you cast show and tell, who puts his permanent first? you or the opponent?

You do.

I thought the card is worded to say both of you guys put it down at the same time? So far, I have just put a card facedown then my opponent does the same. And then we both flip it over at the same time...

[meadbert]

4 Show and Tell
4 Oath
4 Tyrants

What if they have Leviathan in hand?

[Evenpence]

if you cast show and tell, who puts his permanent first? you or the opponent?

You do.

I thought the card is worded to say both of you guys put it down at the same time? So far, I have just put a card facedown then my opponent does the same. And then we both flip it over at the same time...

This is correct, they come into play at the same time.

[Sobolev]

if you cast show and tell, who puts his permanent first? you or the opponent?

You do.

I thought the card is worded to say both of you guys put it down at the same time? So far, I have just put a card facedown then my opponent does the same. And then we both flip it over at the same time...

This is correct, they come into play at the same time.

101.4. If multiple players would make choices and/or take actions at the same time, the active player (the player whose turn it is) makes any choices required, then the next player in turn order (usually the player seated to the active player's left) makes any choices required, followed by the remaining nonactive players in turn order. Then the actions happen simultaneously. This rule is often referred to as the "Active Player, Nonactive Player (APNAP) order" rule.
Example: A card reads "Each player sacrifices a creature." First, the active player chooses a creature he or she controls. Then each of the nonactive players, in turn order, chooses a creature he or she controls. Then all creatures chosen this way are sacrificed simultaneously.

Cards are chosen in APNAP order, and then both come in to play at the same time.  They are not necessarily revealed before as long as the card is already chosen (example: is set on the table by itself, face down)

[chrissss]

so lets say I show an elephant, and my opponent shows a bargain.

I can still destroy his bargain because the ability goes on stack right? so casting terastodon will automatically destroy whatever he puts down, unless its a creature off course.

[DuKeLiO]

If you play 7 topdeck Tutors and 4 Enrakuls, you have to Play Channel. It is the best way to play Emrakul and having the extra turn to anhilate opponent's board.

[Evenpence]

so lets say I show an elephant, and my opponent shows a bargain.

I can still destroy his bargain because the ability goes on stack right? so casting terastodon will automatically destroy whatever he puts down, unless its a creature off course.

Yes, they come into play simultaneously.  This is how it happens:

You cast Show and Tell.  Let's assume you didn't Quicken it on your opponent's turn, so it's your main phase.  That makes you the active player.

Show and Tell resolves.

You choose a card from your hand and put it face down on the table as your Show and Tell choice.  Your opponent does the same after you choose your card.  This is because of Active Player, Non-Active Player (APNAP) order.  Your opponent still doesn't know you're playing the elephant because it's face down on the table (to illustrate your choice).

You both explain that you have made your choice and indicate the cards that you [edit: BOTH] have chosen.

You both simultaneously flip the cards over and they hit the battlefield (CITP).

Your elephant trigger goes on the stack.  You choose targets for the trigger.  Your opponent can now draw cards with Yawgmoth's Bargain if he desires (before the trigger resolves).

[Cyberpunker]

Sweet, so that means I don't have to show my opponent my choice (I feared I had to after reading this thread)

[chrissss]

ok ty Evenpence.

thats pretty cool that ruling, although with a bargain it doesnt matter a lot, it can matter with cards like Tez etc.

Seems like Showing an elephant and Telling him to destroy his recently put into play permanent is pretty useful

[Kiriyuu]

I'm really paranoid that I'm going to show and tell a huge man and my opponent makes a sower of temptation O_O

That'd be a beating!

Channel is obviously an awesome plan with emrakul, thanks! : )

[Cyberpunker]

I'm really paranoid that I'm going to show and tell a huge man and my opponent makes a sower of temptation O_O

That'd be a beating!

Channel is obviously an awesome plan with emrakul, thanks! : )

Yeah nothing is invincible ><. Channel is strong. Go for it.

[DubDub]

I have been experimenting with Show and Tell recently (doing horribly with it as a mainboard option at Waterbury day one, and then well with it in the sideboard day two), and I think it deserves more consideration as a transformational sideboard option.  Here are some comments I have:

One of my opponents day one asked me if I had heard of 'Oath of Druids', which is actually a fair point.  Why play this over Oath?  I think with the printing of Nature's Claim, and the increased use Trygon Predator is seeing, artifact and enchantment hate has merged.  Having both Oath and Time Vault as win conditions doesn't require a diversity of answers from my opponent.  Instead having Show and Tell and Time Vault opens the possibility that the opponent can be stuck with the wrong answer.  I was able to completely ignore a Null Rod and two Seals of Primordium from this opponent because I knew I was on the S&T plan.  A Show and Tell package is slightly more compact than Oath, not requiring concessions in the manabase, nor even a full four copies of the namesake card.  Mystical Tutor is also gained as a tutor in comparison to Oath.

Fatties make Mind's Desire better.  This is a really minor point, because obviously Mind's Desire should be good enough anyway, but in round one day one I was able to Desire for four with one copy countered, while staring down both Jace TMS and Inkwell Leviathan.  I hit Rebuild, Show and Tell, and Kozilek the Butcher.  And then Kozilek's draw four trigger drew me into an Emrakul.  He bounced one Eldrazi titan and died to the other one.

Show and Tell cheats Yawgmoth's Bargain into play.  On day two I had S&T as a sideboard plan for a Drain Tendrils deck, and was able to put Bargain into play for   , then find a lethal Tendrils while facing a tapped out Vault-Key.  Here I had boarded in only one S&T and only one Emrakul to offer an alternate line of play with minimal space, but S&T was worth tutoring up with Gifts on turn one.

It's good against Fish, Shops, and Dredge.  Extra huge dudes is good against Fish.  Annihilator, and especially the ability on It that Betrays is good against Shops and Dredge.  Turning off Bridge from Below, Wasteland, Smokestack are all very useful bonuses on a win condition.

Duplicant, Sower of Temptation, Jace, the Mind Sculptor etc.  So far this has not happened to me.  I played a singleton Thoughtseize in my Drain Tendrils list as a concession to this possibility (over the fourth Drain), but Vendilion Clique is another good option that also gains value against Jace as a pseudo-hasty attacker.  In general this sideboard plan is not in place for use against 'blue' decks, so Sower of Temptation/Jace should not be a huge concern.  Duplicant may be an increasingly threatening response from shops given that people are determined to make Forgemaster work, I have yet to put time into stopping this response.

What creatures to run?  Day one I ran 2x Emrakul, 1x Kozilek, and 1x It that Betrays, this was because Kozilek is better in a dedicated Mind's Desire deck, and because it's better than the second It that Betrays or Emrakul put into play.  Kozilek is also slightly more hard-castable.  I decided against Ulamog since I expect most robots going forward to be Inkwell Leviathan over Sphinx, in the case where you are casting him and that is relevant.  One should also have at least one's robot as a worthwhile creature to cheat in.  I decided against Iona because she's best against 'blue', where this plan is weakest, and she's bad against Shops.  I decided against Terastodon because without an Oath to guarantee another fatty the following turn, giving an opponent free 3/3s can be threatening.  The Eldrazi's annihilator ability makes them stronger against Shops, provided that they live to attack.  As I mentioned, in Drain Tendrils Yawgmoth's Bargain is an attractive non-creature choice.

[dangerlinto]

Stifle is probably a card to look at in a Show & Tell deck, at least in the SB.  Not only is it generally useful (and blue), but if your opponent is Oath or Shop with Titan or some other CITB effect, Stifle can come to your rescue.