Dark Times. A Revisiting, because I believe this deck is good.

[D_erutrot]

Max Brown Took First at Blue Bell in Jan of 2010 and Mario Vazquez Took Fifth in Zürich on 28.03.2010 With a deck that has many names, Dark Times, Do you fear Death A, Depths of the Void among others.
This is a strong mono black list that I feel is a great budget deck and a strong competitor in the current Noble Fish/Dredge/Shop/Vault metagame we see.
 
Here is the decklist:

Maindeck (60 cards):
1 Black Lotus
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dark Ritual
1 Darkblast
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Duress
1 Grim Discovery
1 Imperial Seal
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Sadistic Sacrament
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Lands (20):
2 Dark Depths
1 Strip Mine
11 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
   
Mario's Sideboard: (15 cards)
2 Bitterblossom
1 Chain of Mephistopheles
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Emissary of Despair
1 Engineered Plague
3 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Yixlid Jailer

Max's Sideboard:
Sideboard:
3 Null Rod
2 Emissary of Despair
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needle
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Phyrexian Negator


I really like this deck, because of the dual combo engine, powered by the 4x tutors, two instants at one mana and two sorceries, The Imperial Seal is a bit expensive, but I plan to play in a 5 proxy environment, so I think this deck is dead on, only really requiring 4 proxies, with the mox, lotus, seal and Chains.

The Leylines, being free against most decks where they matter, not only hinder several viable budget decks and give you a one for one against anyone hoping for a yawgwin, but they give you a 5 colorless mana one card win condition, easily tutored for. I cannot count the number of times I've been busting ass to assemble Marit Lage, just to have Void Helm win the game with a duress on the 3rd turn.
The 8 Duress effects I feel add a almost counterspellish control aspect to the piloting of this deck, and the abundance of redundancy, along with an excellent toolbox of bullets to expend your tutor suite on (I have consulted for either hexmage or void for the win more times than I can count.) many situations are simply a shuffle and a draw away from a solution, no matter what your game state is.
I ran Nights Whisper, while I pined away for bob, the task of convincing my wife to let me drop $60 on a playset of Confidants was long and arduous. Eventually, of course, the tide of battle fell my way, and once I had my confidants, I never looked back.
I'm sorry to say, but the advantage, turn after turn, of drawing another card, as well as beating face, just takes the cake for bob. Especially when the hardest hit you take in this deck is Leyline of the void, and the count of painful draws is awesomely low in this deck, 8, most of them are no more damaging then a thoughtseize, and with the speed of vintage these days, the only worry I have about bob or seize is the game going longer than 5 turns.
Again, the dual combo engine helps here.
I ran a version, for kicks, that included 2 painters servants and a grindstone, for a third combo option, but I felt that the cost was too high in terms of card dilution and synergy.


I find during testing that I have been happy with the following changes;
-1 Mox Jet
-2 Diabolic Edict
-1 Grim Discovery

+1 Null Rod
+3 Gatekeeper
In the maindeck.
Though I have been reminded by several Sphinx of the Steel Wind how useful instant speed non-targeted removal can be, and it has me rethinking the gatekeepers main.
This deck reminds me of my old school Necropotence deck, and is what brought me back into Magic after years of despair at Mono-Black's fall from grace.
I dont know though, I havent faced much creature based combat, as my testing is all done against powered Bob and TP Storm, Stax of various colors, and odd sligh and zoo variants.
Very few Tarmogoyfs, until last week, when we all started proxying them. Which proved disastrous, game after game, when playing against heavy UGW.
Hence the sideboard change:

To:
2 Bitterblossom
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Engineered Plague
2 Null Rod
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Sadistic Sacrament (I love this card, I wish I could run 4x)
2 Yixlid Jailer
3 Perish (this is just wrong, but I dont know how else to clear a tarmo/higherach/pridemage board with a dark ritual. This is one of my most boarded and used cards, plus, its immune to spell snare.)

Perish is the best answer I could find for UGW, for tarmogoyf at all. Edict doesnt help much with a hierach or a pridemage on the board backing goyf up. (Same goes for darkblast.)

I've visited the only other (mono) black depths thread I can find, and its ancient.
I'm just wondering if this is still viable, and if anyone has any suggestions.
Thanks in advance.


Edit: Sorry to those who sought credit for this deck and werent given it, I am not claiming credit for coming up with this list, simply looking to improve it with the coming of RoE and a changing Vintage average meta.

[D_erutrot]

Another Mono-Black Decklist that I was able to dig up.
November 11-09
Top four list from Magic-League Tournament.
11 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Depths
1 Strip Mine
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
2 Sadistic Sacrament
4 Null Rod
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
   
Sideboard:
2 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Extirpate
3 Yixlid Jailer
1 Massacre
3 Powder Keg
4 Ravenous Trap

I think the hymns and the excess depths hurt him, as well as not running the second combo.
I'm not sure though, perhaps something I'm not seeing has occurred during these matches.

[Cyberpunker]

For Fish hate

Massacre and Deathmark work very well for me, maybe you should try them? I run 3 of each.

[serracollector]

I might just be confused here, but how did you manage to beat so much MUD?  Doesn't first turn workshop /Mox > Lodestone just eat u alive?

You have no way to stop sphere affects, tangles, or smokestacks except 8 duress effects, and hopefully a Edict for "only" 3 mana if your lucky.

No offense, but it looks like either you played some crappy MUD variants, or you won every coin flip and had first turn Dark rit>Thoughtseize>confidant.  Other wise I don't see how you could outrace MUD?

[Cyberpunker]

Well, Vampiric Hexmage only costs 2...

[Random Noob]

This is the current Sketch i work with:

// Lands
    11  Swamp
    4 Wasteland
    3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1 Strip Mine
    3 Dark Depths

// Creatures
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Vampire Hexmage
    4 Bloodghast

// Spells
    1 Necropotence
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Thoughtseize
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Consultation
    1 Black Lotus
    3 Duress
    4 Leyline of the Void
    1 Helm of Obedience
    4 Skullclamp

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Sadistic Sacrament
SB: 2 Darkblast
SB: 2 Ravenous Trap
SB: 4 Null Rod
SB: 3 Gatekeeper of Malakir

This is what I would try for a heavy Dredge Meta. Skullclamp and Bloodghast works well, but i'm not sure if it's possible to cut MD Null Rod.

[D_erutrot]

Turn one Dark ritual/Null Rod, combined with the fact that gatekeeper and edict are easy to cast under sphere effects, and duresses. MUD is this decks most difficult matchup, I will admit.
Though to assume that either my deck or theirs always got a dark ritual or a workshop online first turn is kinda foolish.
I regularly go off in the first 4 turns of the game, as with most vintage decks, I have one combo that is 2 black mana and two cards, and one combo that is 5 colorless and 2 cards under optimal conditions and 9 mana under sub optimal conditions.
Speed isnt something I'm concerned about with this deck, nor am I concerned with fully powered shop decks in a 5 proxy environment where the average player has to proxy his tarmogoyfs for vintage because he traded them off for Jund or Bant or Baneslayers.

Though, thats why I'm seeking help, the little problem I'm seeing online with Mono-Brown.
Wasteland is really effective there too, maybe crucible and smallpox...

[Cyberpunker]

How about splashing green for Nature's Claim/Krosan Grip? You can even use Living Wish as tutors for Hexmage and Depths!

[serracollector]

This also gives u access too Life from the Loam (to get back Depths), along with Pernicious Deed (which costs the same as a gatekeeper with kicker, but does a lot more), and goyfs in the side as well vs Fish (if fish is problematic as well, also a fat goyf can block Lodestones all day long, and lives thru trike).

[2nd_lawl]

this is my deck :/

Edit: to be clear, Mario's deck is card for card(with a different sideboard) the deck I used to win the Jan 2nd blue bell. I wrote a report which can be found here:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39581.0

[D_erutrot]

Sorry, 2nd Lawl, if you are Max Brown, blue bell winner, I have given you credit with a higher placing finish with the deck, and I believe alluded to you're having been key in the development of the list as it exists here.

[evil-rage]

You don't want 3 Perish, you want 1 Perish, 1 Nature's Ruin, 1 Massacre. This is what one of the Oath builds I was looking at runs for fish hate, and that way Meddling Mage for Perish doesn't wreck you. Massacre doesn't usually kill goyf though, so maybe you can run something else there - either another Perish or Nature's Ruin or something else entirely.

[2nd_lawl]

By the way, You should almost assuredly include a crucible in your maindeck as a tutor target.

[BruiZar]

I was thinking of splashing white for Vindicate, and Academy Rector / Lost Auramancers. Gatekeeper can trigger Rector and Vampire Hexmage can Trigger Lost Auramancers. Obviously Yawgmoth's Bargain comes to mind, but there are other potent enchantment as well.

[BruiZar]

You could rector up a Divine Intervention and draw the game instantly with Vampire Hexmage if your losing or getting locked out by Time Vault 

[zeus-online]

If he's getting locked by time vault, why not just get seal of cleansing and blow it up?

[Evenpence]

Why doesn't this deck run blue?  There's no point to not splash blue for Ancestral, Time Walk, Brainstorm, etc.  Plus, you get some nice sideboard options.

[the zeeker]

I've been working on a variation of the standard Dark Times decklist for quite some time.  Instead of going the MBC route I have decided to splash blue and green for intuition, ancestral recall, and life from the loam as well as the sideboard options these colors open up.  Here is my list; I will explain the card choices below:

Creatures      
3   Gatekeeper Of Malakir   BB
4   Vampire Hexmage   BB
4   Dark Confidant   1B
3   Bloodghast   BB
      
Broken      
1   Demonic Tutor   1B
1   Vampiric Tutor   B
2   Intuition   2U
1   Ancestral Recall   U
1   Yawgmoth's Will   2B
      
Disruption      
3   Null Rod   2
3   Duress   B
4   Thoughtseize   B
3   Cabal Therapy   B
1   Life from the Loam   1G
      
Mana/Acceleration      
1   Strip Mine   Land
3   Wasteland   Land
4   Dark Ritual   B
1   Dark Depths   Land
1   Lotus Petal   0
1   Mox Sapphire   0
1   Mox Emerald   0
1   Mox Jet   0
1   Black Lotus   0
3   Polluted Delta   Land
3   Verdant Catacombs   Land
3   Swamp   Land
2   Bayou   Land
2   Underground Sea   Land

   Sideboard   
2   Bitterblossom   1B
4   Nature's Claim   G
1   Hurkyll's Recall   1U
1   Rebuild   2U
2   Bitter Ordeal   2B
4   Leyline of the Void   2BB
1   Helm of Obedience   4

Why splash green for one card?
I decided to go green for life from the loam.  I thought I could get away with one copy of the card and felt it added so much stability to the deck.  Recurring strips and wastes seemed like a pretty good idea, plus the ability to bring back fetches and/or a wasted dark depths seemed really strong.  I just felt that if I was going to run strip and waste that this cards inclusion was a no brainer.  Plus this opens up Nature’s Claim in the board, an auto 4-of for this deck.

Why splash blue?
Once I decided to go green, I thought to myself why not try running intuition?  It fills up the graveyard, can dig you out of a bad situation, and is just really broken sometimes.  I felt intuition served as a better 3rd or 4th tutor than something like demonic conultation or imperial seal.  Some typical intuition piles include:

Life from the Loam
Strip Mine
Wasteland/Dark Depths

3x Null Rod

3x Gatekeeper (to get rid of a problematic creature)

3x Cabal Therapy

3x Dark ritual (if I have will in my hand and need the mana)

3x Bloodghast

All of the above piles are strong in their own way, and I’ve tried to add some cards to the deck (such as bloodghast and cabal therapy) that are still useful when they hit the yard.

After adding blue for intuition Ancestral Recall became and auto-include, and I’ve gone back and forth on Time Walk as well.  It just never gave me the kick I needed and I ended up dumping for additional disruption.  Blue also allows me to run Hurkyll’s Recall/Rebuild out of the board to help with the MUD/Stax matchup.

Win Conditions
Hexmage/Dark Depths
Easy to assembly 2 card win condition that costs only two mana and a land drop.  Depths can be difficult to find some times, but between dredging up cards to LFTL, and the 4 tutors I have maindecked it’s not all that difficult to find.  Pros – wins the game in one swing (usually), dark depths cannot be countered, can win from behind.  Con’s – token can be bounced/stolen easily, one copy of Dark Depths in the deck, Dark Depths is a non-mana producing land, Hexmage doesn’t do a lot by itself (although it can get rid of those pesky planeswalkers in a pinch and the first strike doesn’t hurt).

Plan B(eatdown)
The back up plan is beats.  Not much to add here.  Bloodghast helps here, as they are really tough for an opponent to deal with game 1.

Plan C  - Leyline/Helm
I moved Leyline/Helm to the side as I didn’t want to overload my deck with win conditions in favor of additional disruption.  I also wanted to maindeck 3 Null Rods and they don’t play very nicely with Helm of Obedience.

Other Cards

Dark Confidant – Drawing cards is good.  The low mana curve of the deck helps mitigate the life loss drawback.  Can always sac to cabal therapy in a pinch and beats for 2 a turn.

Gatekeeper of Malakir – Answer for tinker.

Null Rod – Still very strong as artifact mana and vault/key continue to appear in high numbers.

Duress/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy – Needed first turn disruption, and to force threats through a counter wall.  I knew I wanted 10 cards here so I could reliably have 1 in the first turn and I thought the 3/4/3 breakdown was correct.

Dark Ritual – Great for powering out first turn threats, allows me to disrupt and drop a threat first turn.  Works with null rod on the board and makes Yawgmoth’s Will an even more destructive card.

Mana Base
This mana base has worked well for me, 6 fetches, 4 strips, 3 basics, 4 duals, supplemented by 3 on color moxen, black lotus, and lotus petal for explosive starts.

Sideboard
Obviously metagame dependent, but I like this mix to deal with the popular decks right now (oath, tezz, ichorid, MUD, Stax, and Fish).

Cards that didn’t make the cut
Time Walk – Seemed underwhelming most times I cast it, has been in and out in testing.  Great with a confidant down, an Avatar token in play, or to finish off an opponent with beats.  I cut it for additional disruption

Tinker/Bot – Sat in my hand too many times, answered by many of the same cards that answer Hexmage/Depths.  I cut the tinker plan + time walk for 3 bloodghasts although I am still testing this.

Sadistic Sacrament/Bitter Ordeal – Didn’t make the maindeck I really want to try to fit in a Bitter Ordeal main but I can’t figure out what to cut.  Not as strong in the current metagame as  most decks have adjusted to Sad Sacs presence by adding additional win conditions.

Regrowth – tested for a while but usually a dead card.

Tarmogoyf – I could switch out the bloodghasts for these guys, I haven’t tested them at all, but they could work nicely.

Concluding Thoughts
I really like this deck it’s a ton of fun to play.  I have been playing vintage for 15 years on and off and I always had a special place in my heart for SUI.  Unfortunately I have very little time to test and no reliable testing partners, so my testing consists of two fisted testing or random MWS games.  I have tested a lot against Oath and Tezz, Oath being maybe 40-60 pre-board and 60-40 post board.  Tezz is slightly favorable pre-board and gets much better post-board. 

I’d appreciate any thoughts/comments on my take of Dark Times, thanks for reading!

[SiegeX]

Can Phylactary Lich find its way into this deck? It seems like a much better card than negator but I don't think any of the lists I've seen have the artifact density to run it yet.  Since all the lists run Urborg, having Phylactary Lich tied to a Darksteel Citadel sounds pretty decent.

[Valorale]

One option is to run Vault of Whispers over basic swamps to increase the artifact density for Phylactary Lich, of course the huge downside is youre leaving yourself wide open to wasteland, so that would be a meta call.

[BruiZar]

@ The Zeeker: You are polluting the list with blue. Intuition sucks for this deck. It's just way way way too slow (and expensive). Plus, your piles are not that great either. Screw life from the loam. If you want to play strip lock, just play crucible in a workshop shell.

You don't even have chalice of the void or null rod to help capitalize on strip locking. Also, I don't like the fact that you only have 1 dark depths and 4 hexmages with limited tutor abilities (demonic and vampiric, intuition doesnt count), either keep green and play crop rotation or add more Dark Depths.

[waffles]

into the north wouldn't be any use in the green side as a depths tutor would it?

[the zeeker]

@Bruizar - Thanks for your comments, it's been a while since i posted that list.  I don't feel that blue pollutes the deck, I'm only running 4 blue cards so i think the inclusion of 2 underground seas doesn't pollute the mana base too badly.  Also my hand rarely gets clogged up by blue cards, if i have a sea in play i usually only need to get one activation out of it so even if it's wasted it doesn't hurt too badly. 

I really like intuition in this list, I realize it costs 3 mana but it is the only card in the deck with a mana cost that high.  It strengthens the mid to late game where this deck is typically weak.  This deck has a lot of early plays and disruption, but being able to set up my graveyard and hand late game is a very powerful effect.  Also I am playing 3 null rods maindeck you must have missed that. 

I like life from the loam over crucible for a couple of reasons.  First it's harder to get rid of.  With workshops being so mainstream now everyone is packing artifact hate.  Also it's one mana cheaper and I don't mind have the extra cards in my graveyard either.  It sets up a powerful late game will or dumps some cabal therapies into the yard that I can play for free later.  Secondly it makes intuition much stronger.  A pile of strip mine, dark depths, LFTL is very strong and I think you may be underestimating it.  I'm guaranteed to get all 3 cards and will either grind the game to a halt with strip lock or set up a game winning depths/hexmage. That being said I will try testing with a copy of crucible in it's place and see how it works out.

I've made a couple of updates to that list since I posted it - I cut the 3 blood ghasts in favor of the 'goyfs, and added a time walk strengthening the blue cards even more.  It may not be the strongest deck out there but I feel it's very flexible, and it has the surprise factor going for it.  The multiple win conditions with leyline/helm in the side gives me many routes to victory.  It 's very difficult to shut down every one.  I enjoy playing the deck and will being taking it to a tourney in a couple of weeks.  I will continue to test and will try to post back here with my results.  Thanks for reading.

[Delha]

I like life from the loam over crucible for a couple of reasons.  First it's harder to get rid of.  With workshops being so mainstream now everyone is packing artifact hate.  Also it's one mana cheaper and I don't mind have the extra cards in my graveyard either.  It sets up a powerful late game will or dumps some cabal therapies into the yard that I can play for free later.  Secondly it makes intuition much stronger.  A pile of strip mine, dark depths, LFTL is very strong and I think you may be underestimating it.  I'm guaranteed to get all 3 cards and will either grind the game to a halt with strip lock or set up a game winning depths/hexmage. That being said I will try testing with a copy of crucible in it's place and see how it works out.

Grave hate is pretty common as well, and often in heavier concentrations than artifact hate. Also, consider that at least some of that artifact hate takes the form of Null Rod, which does nothing against Crucible.

[the zeeker]

Excellent point Delha, however grave hate is going to hose either strategy whether it be crucible or LFTL.  Also if they are watering down their deck with grave hate against me that is ultimately to my advantage, as strip lock is not the primary focus of the deck, just one route to victory.  While admittedly it is a speed bump to my disruption plan I can still win without it.

[BruiZar]

I'm sorry, I didnt see the Null Rods were in the sideboard.

Either Crop Rotation or Into the North is definately something I suggest testing over Intuition. Even though i have 4 foil intuitions, I dislike using Intuition because I think they are expensive to run. I have always advocated the use of Gamble over Intuition (if color is  not the issue).

Now that you´ve dropped Bloodghast over Tarmogoyf, it makes more sense to drop intuition. If I had to pick 2 tutors instead of Intuition I would probably pick Imperial Seal and either Spoil of the Vault, Demonic Consultation, Tainted Pact or Infernal Tutor.

If you really want to play with Intuition, I'd go for something like demigod of revenge orsomething.

[the zeeker]

After taking into account some of the thoughts posted above here is what my list would look like if I were to play B/G instead of U/B/G:

Creatures   
4   Dark Confidant
4   Vampire Hexmage
3   Tarmogoyf
3   Gatekeeper of Malakir
   
Tutors   
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Crop Rotation
1   Imperial Seal
   
Sorceries   
2   Crucible of Worlds
1   Yawgmoth's Will
1   Necropotence
   
Disruption   
3   Null Rod
3   Duress
3   Cabal Therapy
4   Thoughtseize
   
   
Mana/Acceleration   
1   Strip Mine
3   Wasteland
4   Dark Ritual
1   Lotus Petal
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Emerald
1   Black Lotus
4   Verdant catacombs
4   Bayou
1   Forest
3   Swamp
1   Bojuka Bog
1   Dark Depths
61   

Possible Sideboard

1   Pithing Needle
2   Bitterblossom
4   Nature's Claim
2   Sadistic Sacrament
1   Helm of Obedience
4   Leyline of the Void
1   Bojuka Bog


Basically the changes to the deck are as follows
-   2 Intuition
-   1 Ancestral Recall
-   1 Time Walk
-   1 Mox Sapphire
-   2 Underground Sea
-   3 Polluted Delta
-   1 Life from the Loam

+   2 Crucible of Worlds
+   1 Crop Rotation
+   1 Imperial Seal
+   1 Necropotence
+   1 Verdant Catacombs
+   2 Bayou
+   1 Forest
+   1 Bojuka Bog

Ok so let’s start off by discussing the proposed changes.  First of all since we are testing an Intuition-less deck it didn’t make much sense to run blue for Ancestral and Time Walk.  So all the blue cards are gone.  Next without Intuition LFTL become much worse and Crucible becomes much better.  I replaced the Intuitions with an Imperial Seal and a Crop Rotation.  Necro replaced Ancestral, and I reconfigured the mana base to accomadate the changes listed above. 

Pro’s for not running blue:  More stable mana base; easier to tutor up my singleton Dark Depths with Crop Rotation/Imperial Seal; access to Necropotence which can be a game breaker if it sticks.

Cons for not running blue:  Losing out on Ancestral and Time Walk; don’t have access to one card that can tutor up LFTL, strip mine, and Dark Depths at the same time; losing blue as a sideboard color (Hurkyll’s/Rebuild).

This version may be more stable, but it loses some of the explosiveness of the blue version.  I’m not sure which is preferable at this point.  Looks like I’ll be doing some testing tonight to see which version is better right now.  Also I’m a little bit more worried about the Workshop matchup without Hurkyll’s but we’ll see how it plays out.

Any thoughts or comments are always appreciated

[the zeeker]

So I've been playing around with the list posted above for the last couple of nights testing mainly against oath and tezz.  I don't have actual results (I wasn't keeping track) and I was just two-fisted testing on MWS (and we all know the inherent flaws in two fisted testing) but I have to say I really like the way the deck plays now.  Tutoring up Necropotence when I didn't have any combo pieces in my hand was huge.  Everytime it hit the table I won.  Imperial Seal, Crop Rotation, and Necro are all strong additions to the deck.

That being said I still haven't tested the Workshop matchup which I'm pretty sure is going to be my worst matchup.  I'll be camping all of this weekend so it will have to wait until next week.  Thanks for everyone's comments I think they really helped me take the deck in the right direction.  It's hard to admit when you're wrong but dropping Intuition was the right decision and I'm not looking back.