[Deck]RND-Tezzeret

[Zieby]

You may be right that Tez needs a maindeck Hurkyl's Recall to work effectively. And I am not disagreeing anymore. I am just saying I personally wouldn't play a deck that would need maindeck silver bullets rather than having an explosive offense that would win them the game instead.

This comment is not regarding this deck, but rather regarding what you want to play. According to your statement THE Deck is also not a vailable deck in the Current Meta game, because this deck is build arround silver bullits. As I see your point of view correctly, than you are a combo player.

Tezzeret is a Control deck with a Combo Finish, there is a huge difference in that. When playing this deck I win half the time just on Confidant beats and controlling the game and not with TV+Key. Because you want to control the game and can't counter all the threats all the time you need to have some sollutions in your maindeck to deal with those threats.
There for it is impoprtant that those sollutions have multiple uses. Repeal or Nature's Claim are good examples of this. They both help against the mayority of the decks in today's metagame.

[Marske]

@kooaznboi1088,
Hurkyl's Recall helps deal with a entire host of annoying things (Null Rod, Tinker Bots, Game 1 vs Stax) along with opposing TV/Key's, Painters etc etc. It's also possible to Stack top triggers and draw a card having the top return to your hand etc. It's hardly ever a dead card, in the worst case scenario it's a blue card that pitches... The logic you're following makes no sense to me, no silver bullets ? It's impossible not to have them in this day and age of Highlander Vintage.

@Honestabe,
Zieby has already explained it a bit, but I just wanted to stress the fact that Top is really good, even as a 2 off, I've ran 3 having them clutter up my hand and I've ran 1 hardly ever seeing it (unless I tutor for it) and that just will not do. Top breaks control mirrors in half and the person who has it is in charge and more likely to win. I think 2 top is needed.

@Zieby,
No problem regarding the props Credit due where credit is due... I believe both our builds are perfectly viable, would you mind posting your UBg list as well so people can discuss our builds a bit ?

[Zieby]

As requested by Marske here my list.

R&D Tezz UBg
Maindeck   
4   Force of Will
3   Mana Drain
3   Spell Pierce
   
2   Nature's Claim
1   Hurkyl's Recall
   
3   Dark Confidant
1   Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1   Tezzeret, the Seeker
1   Voltiac Key
1   Time Vault
   
2   Sensei's Divining Top
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Brainstorm
1   Time Walk
1   Thirst for Knowledge
2   Jace, the Mind Sculptor
   
1   Mystical Tutor
1   Merchant Scroll
1   Tinker
1   Gifts Ungiven
1   Regrowth
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Yawgmoth's Will
   
1   Black Lotus
1   Mana Crypt
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Sol Ring
3   Island
3   Polluted Delta
3   Misty Rainforest
3   Underground Sea
2   Tropical Island
1   Library of Alexandria
1   Tolarian Academy

Sideboard   
2   Deathmark
2   Energy Flux
1   Hurkyl's Recall
1   Massacre
1   Nature's Claim
1   Pithing Needle
3   Ravenous Trap
2   Thoughtseize
2   Tormod's Crypt

I play the Claims over Repeal because they solve problems instead of delaying them.
The Second Jace is there to have an edge against Fish the last Difference in the Main Deck is Regrowth over Timetwister.
If Green is already in available to you, than Regrowth is more versatile the Twister and can get you back in the game when you GY is stacked.

In the SB I prefer Traps, Cryp’t and Needles over Leyline. Thoughtseize <-> Duress is still under discussion.

Greetz Arjan

[Marske]

@Zieby,
So the main difference between these lists (barring the obvious mana base) in cards (both builds have performed equally well) is this:

RND - UB Tezz:
3 Repeal
1 Twister

RND - UBg Tezz:
2 Nature's Claim
1 Jace, The Mindsculptor
1 Regrowth

So as you guys can see it's really not at all very different, we both just choose to deal with stuff in a different way, the added benefit of having an extra basic is bigger for me than having an answer to a threat that resolved (which I do have in Repeal, it's just not as effective as Nature's Claim)

The biggest difference is the SB in which Zieby must focus a lot more on creatures (Death Marks) as opposed to me having Repeal to deal with them even game 1. I do however agree on the fact that a single global sweeper (Massacre, Infest, whatever) is going to be needed. I'm not sure what the correct Ichorid hate package is going to be so that's up for debate. I also feel having just 2 Duress / Seize  would bother me a bit about Zieby's Build, I'd prefer to have at least 3.

I hope you guys enjoy this little peak into the minds of us RND folk and how we go about making the decks you guys see us release, as this type of discussion is usually on Team boards more then in the open.

[Cyberpunker]

@kooaznboi1088,
Hurkyl's Recall helps deal with a entire host of annoying things (Null Rod, Tinker Bots, Game 1 vs Stax) along with opposing TV/Key's, Painters etc etc. It's also possible to Stack top triggers and draw a card having the top return to your hand etc. It's hardly ever a dead card, in the worst case scenario it's a blue card that pitches... The logic you're following makes no sense to me, no silver bullets ? It's impossible not to have them in this day and age of Highlander Vintage.

Tezzeret's strategy is to survive with card advantage and go TinkerBot or KeyVault eventually. It is now a relatively slow deck with very few threats(even slower with Confidant as your engine). And so it needs bounce/removal/silver bullets to stall for time. If you can get your draw engine online (by that I mean at least 2 turns with Confidant) before your opponent kills you, then you will have a tremendous advantage. But Vintage is explosive right off turn 1 and you will not always be able to stall for enough time to win consistently against decks like ANT, Oath, Selkie, or even Dredge. That was Tezzeret's weakness that made Selkie so good, it could not always handle Selkie's tempo and threats. It can't always handle workshop's threats. And it cannot always handle Oath's threats nowadays too (you both have the same broken cards except his Oath vs your Confidants).

And so yes, Tezzeret needs silver bullets and that is precisely why I do not think it is the strongest deck anymore. Tezzeret came out because people were trying to find a deck that abuses KeyVault the most. Zendikar, Worldwike, and Rise of the Eldrazi came out. Now Oath is the deck that can best take advantage of KeyVault. You will still win a lot of games with Tezzeret, but I do not believe that you will win with the same consistency as Oath.

According to your statement THE Deck is also not a vailable deck in the Current Meta game, because this deck is build arround silver bullits.

I never said it was not viable (if a deck can win games then it is viable), but I think "The Deck" is like Tezzeret though. I do not think it is the strongest for the same reason.

EDIT:

I think the correct Ichorid hate is 4 Ravenous Trap and 1 Tormod's Crypt and 1 Yixlid Jailer for Tezzeret. You can run Planar Void if you are willing to forsake  Yawgmoth's Will. And Bojuku Bog may be too slow for you and cost you a land drop that you need. Relic cost mana to activate and mana to cast and that makes it very hard early game vs Dredge. Leyline is too inconsistent and forces mulligans (plus it is a very horrible topdeck in a deck that needs topdecks). Tormod's Crypt can be fetched with Tezzeret, effectively turning your Tezzeret into an Anti Dredge card game 2-3. Rav Trap is just very powerful especially with your counters to protect it from discard. Yixlid Jailer is the next most powerful dredge hate.

[Marske]

Tezzeret's strategy is to survive with card advantage and go TinkerBot or KeyVault eventually. It is now a relatively slow deck with very few threats(even slower with Confidant as your engine). And so it needs bounce/removal/silver bullets to stall for time. If you can get your draw engine online (by that I mean at least 2 turns with Confidant) before your opponent kills you, then you will have a tremendous advantage. But Vintage is explosive right off turn 1 and you will not always be able to stall for enough time to win consistently against decks like ANT, Oath, Selkie, or even Dredge. That was Tezzeret's weakness that made Selkie so good, it could not always handle Selkie's tempo and threats. It can't always handle workshop's threats. And it cannot always handle Oath's threats nowadays too (you both have the same broken cards except his Oath vs your Confidants).

The biggest difference is that Oath has no way of winning if it cannot resolve Oath of Druids, whilst I have all the tools I need to win if I cannot resolve a Confidant as the function both cards serve is different. Oath also needs to play a very shaky mana base (at least 3-4 Orchards so that's non Duals) and suffers from life loss by Spirit token beats. Both decks suffer from the same weakness regarding the matchups (ANT, Oath, Selkie, Dredge) as you said, Oath solved that by adding Show and Tell ^{TM by RND} to the mix to just put the dorks into play.

I'm handling it with this build by Repealing their threats, Blocking (confidant) or bouncing (Jace) so beyond stating the obvious your point isn't very clear, yes control decks (since Oath, at least RND Oath aka Terastodon Oath is a control deck) suffer from fast starting decks like ANT, Dredge and mana denial decks that bring the beat down (Fish decks in general) this has been true since 1994-95 and will be true in 2013 (if we survive 2012 that is ) I'm just saying this deck can handle it, Spell Pierce goes a long way in stopping ANT doing some crazy shit (not on the draw obviously) and from turn 2 on Drain comes online and helps keep creatures at bay (at least a bit) you cannot deny the fact that Tezz or Oath (With or without Confidant or Remora) is still putting in results and high finishes / tournament wins even with Golem and Selkie around.

And so yes, Tezzeret needs silver bullets and that is precisely why I do not think it is the strongest deck anymore. Tezzeret came out because people were trying to find a deck that abuses KeyVault the most. Zendikar, Worldwike, and Rise of the Eldrazi came out. Now Oath is the deck that can best take advantage of KeyVault. You will still win a lot of games with Tezzeret, but I do not believe that you will win with the same consistency as Oath.

I never said it was not viable (if a deck can win games then it is viable), but I think "The Deck" is like Tezzeret though. I do not think it is the strongest for the same reason.  

Have you ever played Oath of Druids? No offense buddy but I've played RND Oath, heck I took part in the decks creation and ran it in 4 events including the Philly Open V. The entire and single reason I'm switching to Tezz is the fact that Oath isn't consistant, it loses to Spirit beats, it has nothing going on if it cannot resolve an Oath of Druids within turn 1-2-3 (it has zero late game) and although we tried to tweak it as good as possible and give it some sorta late game I'm still not impressed with it.

I think the correct Ichorid hate is 4 Ravenous Trap and 1 Tormod's Crypt and 1 Yixlid Jailer for Tezzeret. You can run Planar Void if you are willing to forsake  Yawgmoth's Will. And Bojuku Bog may be too slow for you and cost you a land drop that you need. Relic cost mana to activate and mana to cast and that makes it very hard early game vs Dredge. Leyline is too inconsistent and forces mulligans (plus it is a very horrible topdeck in a deck that needs topdecks). Tormod's Crypt can be fetched with Tezzeret, effectively turning your Tezzeret into an Anti Dredge card game 2-3. Rav Trap is just very powerful especially with your counters to protect it from discard. Yixlid Jailer is the next most powerful dredge hate.

I think you're on to something as stated earlier the package I ran didn't give me a lot of room against other matchups,  Leyline, how strong it may be, just always feels very clunky, Trap is amazing, but I think I'd prefer to have at least a Pithing Needle instead of the 4th Trap for added flexibility.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

having a neelde available is perfectly fine, but the trap is our friend in this deck as you run two tops. a flooding ravenous trap is virtually unstoppable for dredge.
so I wouldn't go below 3 in this deck.

[madmanmike25]

The biggest difference is that Oath has no way of winning if it cannot resolve Oath of Druids, whilst I have all the tools I need to win if I cannot resolve a Confidant as the function both cards serve is different.

I'm sorry but this is flat out wrong.  Tinker,  Time Vault,  and Tezz are other ways to win the game unless I'm gravely mistaken.  I've unfortunately seen Terastodon harcast as well.

As for Oath losing to spirit token beats, well that just made my day.  Funny stuff.

I also fail to see how Oath has no late game....  Doesn't Oath run Will?  Doesn't Oath have the other 2-card combo of Vault+Key?

As for Hurks, have you considered Rebuild since you can at least cycle it?  I agree that 1 silver bullet card isn't really slowing the deck down.

[Marske]

I'm sorry but this is flat out wrong.  Tinker,  Time Vault,  and Tezz are other ways to win the game unless I'm gravely mistaken.  I've unfortunately seen Terastodon harcast as well.

Yes, all true... now go try playing Oath and see your first turn Oath countered with no other gass in hand (because the other guy had 2 counters to your one) and come talk to me again try the same thing for with this Tezz deck (Confidant or something). The difference is I'll think twice regarding countering twice to get Confidant to stick (because I have a draw engine) and you're kinda stuck with trying to get Oath into play ASAP. The secondary kills aren't easily found without real draw power.

As for Oath losing to spirit token beats, well that just made my day.  Funny stuff.

It has happend, it's not uncommon, give Selkie 1-2 Tokens combine them with some beats and you got a steady clock going. How this is uncommon for you shows how little oath you've played.

I also fail to see how Oath has no late game....  Doesn't Oath run Will?  Doesn't Oath have the other 2-card combo of Vault+Key?

Every deck in Vintage has Will... You go try pushing a late game Will against a deck like Tezz (no matter what build) and see what happens when you've exhausted your hand trying to get your Oath resolved and have no way to replenish it because you don't run an actuall draw engine. Oath has hardly any come back from behind power and that's what I'm trying to say here.

As for Hurks, have you considered Rebuild since you can at least cycle it?  I agree that 1 silver bullet card isn't really slowing the deck down.

Yes, it being 3 mana vs 2 made me play Hurks because I can hit that amount earlier and easier against shop decks, even game 1 it could be a factor.

[madmanmike25]

Well, it's a good thing Oath runs plenty of gas so if the first Oath gets countered its not endgame.  Come talk to me after Oath Ponders, Brainstorms, Recalls, Tops, Thirsts, Vamp's, DT's, etc.

And while I have played Oath, most of my experience is from the other end of the table.  In my years and years of playing I think Orchard tokens were relevent maybe a handful of games.  It is unfortunate, but I have played against a lot of Oath in my days.  If Orchard tokens cause you to lose more often than win this shows me how horrible your luck must be.

Seems you have better luck with Tezz, so stick with it if you get results.  That wont change my opinion that I believe Oath just has more raw power.

[Gekoratel]

I think the correct Ichorid hate is 4 Ravenous Trap and 1 Tormod's Crypt and 1 Yixlid Jailer for Tezzeret. You can run Planar Void if you are willing to forsake  Yawgmoth's Will. And Bojuku Bog may be too slow for you and cost you a land drop that you need. Relic cost mana to activate and mana to cast and that makes it very hard early game vs Dredge. Leyline is too inconsistent and forces mulligans (plus it is a very horrible topdeck in a deck that needs topdecks). Tormod's Crypt can be fetched with Tezzeret, effectively turning your Tezzeret into an Anti Dredge card game 2-3. Rav Trap is just very powerful especially with your counters to protect it from discard. Yixlid Jailer is the next most powerful dredge hate.

I was big on Rav Trap when it first came out but after using it more I became less impressed by the card, when your oppoent knows that you have 2+ Rav Traps then they will start pointing Therapies at you naming Rav Trap which puts you in the awkward spot of needing to use it when they still have Bazaar untapped negating a big value of the card, and if you do cast then they may name Force of Will or some other hate card.  Also sometimes you don't have enough business alongside Rav Trap and the 1-2 turns that they buy you isn't enough to get there.  I actually think that Yixid Jailers strength is at an all time high as many Ichorid players have been cutting hate for him such as Darkblast/Contagion.  People are running hate for artifacts and Leyline in the form of Nature's Claim but Leyline is still so much stronger than every other option that I think its where you want to be.  Personally I'd run something like 3-4 Leyline, 2 Yixid Jailer, 1 Tormod's depending on how much room you have.

[Marske]

Well, it's a good thing Oath runs plenty of gas so if the first Oath gets countered its not endgame.  Come talk to me after Oath Ponders, Brainstorms, Recalls, Tops, Thirsts, Vamp's, DT's, etc.

You're comparing Ponder, Brainstorm, Top, Thirst, Vamp to having an actual draw engine (Confidant, LoA, Top, Repeal, Jace, Brainstorm, Ancestral, TFK) I've played many games against oath in my Vintage career, from Oath's best lists (Tyrant Oath during GAT) to Double Dragon Oath, Iona Oath, TimeLess Oath you name it. The final, definitive flaw all these decks have is that they revolve around a 1G Enchantment that if kept of the table makes the deck be a shadow of what it is when it does have the enchantment. Not to mention when they only have Oath, then they need to go find a way to draw Orchard or Tutor it.

And while I have played Oath, most of my experience is from the other end of the table.  In my years and years of playing I think Orchard tokens were relevent maybe a handful of games.  It is unfortunate, but I have played against a lot of Oath in my days.  If Orchard tokens cause you to lose more often than win this shows me how horrible your luck must be.

Same here, I've always disliked Oath for it's inability to perform well if kept off G or the enchantment. I've seen many an Oath player die because they had to give me 4-5 tokens over several turns because I kept them of Oath. Arjan (Zieby) has played against Oath with his UB/g build a lot more then I have with my UB build and the only games he's lost where the ones in which Oath had turn 1 Mox, Orchard, Oath, when you hit 2-3 mana it's basically game. (yes I'm exaggerating a bit here as you can still fuck up)

Seems you have better luck with Tezz, so stick with it if you get results.  That wont change my opinion that I believe Oath just has more raw power.

I won't deny the fact that Oath has a lot of Raw power, but unlike Tezz, Oath needs 2 pieces (Orchard, Oath) for the deck to function, I only need UU (and with Pierce it's only U)

I was big on Rav Trap when it first came out but after using it more I became less impressed by the card, when your oppoent knows that you have 2+ Rav Traps then they will start pointing Therapies at you naming Rav Trap which puts you in the awkward spot of needing to use it when they still have Bazaar untapped negating a big value of the card, and if you do cast then they may name Force of Will or some other hate card.  Also sometimes you don't have enough business alongside Rav Trap and the 1-2 turns that they buy you isn't enough to get there.  I actually think that Yixid Jailers strength is at an all time high as many Ichorid players have been cutting hate for him such as Darkblast/Contagion.  People are running hate for artifacts and Leyline in the form of Nature's Claim but Leyline is still so much stronger than every other option that I think its where you want to be.  Personally I'd run something like 3-4 Leyline, 2 Yixid Jailer, 1 Tormod's depending on how much room you have.

Sensei's Top negates Therapy quite well, I've won multiple Ichorid games by just keeping trap near the top of the deck for turn after turn after turn, letting them know I have it (because I trapped before) It's actually quite doable to beat them this way. You are however right that Jailer is very strong with everybody cutting into the creature hate.

[Rico Suave]

My problem with Trap is that it doesn't stop the Dredge player.  It only buys time.  Generally it buys about two turns, but very rarely more than that, and sometimes it doesn't even do that much for you.  Unless your hand is stacked with business/draw spells and lots of fast mana, it can frequently be difficult to take advantage of that window of opportunity Trap gives.  And this is complicated even more if the Dredge player has Therapy hitting your business spells.  Most Dredge players I know would feel comfortable taking your business, and putting you back 4-6 turns, and letting you Trap them to set them back 2 turns. 

That being said, I do like one Trap in the deck.  It is handy to M.Tutor or V.Tutor for a Trap with Top on the board and get additional value out of the cards you're already running.  But it only takes 1 Trap to make those cards very effective.

I also like a lone Tormod's Crypt if only for Tinker.  Sometimes Tinker -> Sphinx can be nullified by Chain of Vapor, which is embarrassing.  And if you *really* need to deal with a difficult position and can't Tinker into a piece of Vault/Key, it is very helpful to Tinker into Tormod's Crypt and buy some time. 

So I think 1 Crypt and 1 Trap will help the cards already in your deck become better. 

I also like the addition of a Yixlid Jailer.  There are times where it's necessary to shut the opponent down completely, and while a Leyline in the opening hand does this it also helps to be able to tutor for Jailer and do the same thing without needing 2BB on top of everything else you're already doing.  It also helps that Jailer is very difficult for a Dredge player to answer given that the popular Nature's Claim does not touch it.  And even just one in your deck means the Dredge player must respect it or risk losing to it outright.

I would strongly consider if you're running 7 Dredge hate to run this:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ravenous Trap

That being said, I do like the deck a lot and especially like the Tendrils in the board.  My only concerns are simple:

1) Timetwister should obviously be more another copy of the awesome Jace. =)

2) Is the H.Recall ever a drawback when facing Chalice at 2?  If I were to run a bounce spell of that sort maindeck, I would strongly consider Rebuild if only because Chalice at 2 already shuts off so many important cards in Drain, Bob, tutors, Vault, etc.

But yes, the rest of it is pretty solid.  One of my problems with most blue-based control right now is that Workshops tend to smash it, but the combination of Bob and Energy Flux seems to go a long way in that particular match. 

[Gekoratel]

Agreed on your comments regarding Trap Rico.

2) Is the H.Recall ever a drawback when facing Chalice at 2?  If I were to run a bounce spell of that sort maindeck, I would strongly consider Rebuild if only because Chalice at 2 already shuts off so many important cards in Drain, Bob, tutors, Vault, etc.

Marske list has 3 Repeal to stop Chalice@2 and the UBg list has 2 Nature's Claim, so I think there actually better positioned to deal with Chalice@2 than a standard version of Tez; whatever that is.  I think the extra mana vs. MUD is extremely important giving Hurks the nod.

[Rico Suave]

Ah yes, that is true.  Ignore that comment. 

And just to add one more thing to the Ravenous Trap discussion, I think the printing of Nature's Claim really helped Dredge a lot.  Granted most of my experience has been with Oath, but the match-up is still relatively similar to how Tezz would play it out.  And Nature's Claim hitting Vault/Key has nailed me more than once. 

Trapping the opponent, and having him nullify most/everything going for you up to that point with a Nature's Claim on your Vault, is painful. 

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I'm sorry but this is flat out wrong.  Tinker,  Time Vault,  and Tezz are other ways to win the game unless I'm gravely mistaken.  I've unfortunately seen Terastodon harcast as well.

Yes, all true... now go try playing Oath and see your first turn Oath countered with no other gass in hand (because the other guy had 2 counters to your one) and come talk to me again try the same thing for with this Tezz deck (Confidant or something). The difference is I'll think twice regarding countering twice to get Confidant to stick (because I have a draw engine) and you're kinda stuck with trying to get Oath into play ASAP. The secondary kills aren't easily found without real draw power.

^I’m not sure I’d agree with the use of bob here.

This thread has a lot of oath talk in it so I’m going to type out a bit of a comparison. It may help you gain some insight into the match up.
As far as business spells are concerned, the most popular oath builds are playing the following:
1 ancestral
1 tfk
1 tezz
1 tinker
1 jace
1 gifts
1 y- will
1 other half of time vault/key
4 oath of druid

Your first posted list contains:
1 ancestral
1 tfk
1 tezz
1 tinker
1 jace
1 gifts
1 y- will
1 other half of time vault/key
3 bobs
Difference of 4 oath and 3 bobs. Just looking at that oath has the advantage with more bombs and the bob “bomb” draws you into cards(which may or may not be good cards) oppose to just winning the game like oath does at the same cc. draw power versus win power with unequal numbers. Oath has a higher threat density than it’s ever had before. Granted that isn’t the entire picture.
You’re running less control than oath, and the same number of tutors. Very slight plus to oath. Oath gets regrowth over you though and that can be substantial.
Things this list has on oath:
+1 top- not very relevant
+3 repeal- seems bad against spell pierce. Does a cute trick with top for u1 (+1 if you want to replay your top and get back to where you were before.  +1 if you want to do any spinning)
Twister- something vroman oath used, but isn’t seeing much play in current elephant lists. The effect is symmetrical, but allows you to play catch up in a lot of situations, and benefits players with the most permanents. Also does recursion for y will. Compared to regrowth, I’d rather have regrowth for versatility. You can also pay a ton of mana repeal something and twist it away, however unlikely that is, but I’m sure it happens and can win a game every few months.

Recently I had been playing a lot of bob but have not liked it.  Repeal seems rather weak with the mount of spell pierce running around. U2 to bounce a pride mage or goyf seems a little hefty. The list posted relies heavily on cantrips and cantripping synergies, which very well might pay off, but I know a lot of people who have tested the “repeal + top” thing and no one is bringing it to any events. If it’s working for you, by all means keep playing it. I’m not calling you out or anything, but I was wondering if you have any tournament results with this list yet? If so, what were your matchups so we can get a sense of what Meta this list is for?

[personalbackfire]

Repeal seems rather weak with the mount of spell pierce running around. U2 to bounce a pride mage or goyf seems a little hefty.

Actually I think Repeal seems rather good at the moment, at least in the pa/nj/ny metagame. Repeal is an all star vs fish and also pretty good at bouncing bob/oaths. In addition it  also gets an added bonus of bouncing Chalices, which are seeing more play because of MUD. I guess you could run Echoing Truth, or Chain of vapor, or something like that if you think spending 2U is hefty, but all other options have drawbacks as well.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I've always felt that repeal is awful against shop, especially MUD. My own testing has left with numerous situations where I need to bounce chalice at 1… and I’m staring at repeal. Paying 4 (u+2+1) to remove a single sphere seems very bad as well, and that’s just for one sphere out. I’m often struggling to hurkyll’s recall them eot, and that would cost less mana and get rid of more junk.  Not to mention if you’re casting stuff that costs 3-4 against shop you should be winning anyways. As far as removing wire, smoke stack, or lodestone with repeal, it’s next to impossible unless you’re already winning.

[Marske]

@hvndr3d y34r h3x.

^I’m not sure I’d agree with the use of bob here.

This thread has a lot of oath talk in it so I’m going to type out a bit of a comparison. It may help you gain some insight into the match up.

I'm no rookie when it comes to Vintage dude, I hate to get into these kinda debates, lets just leave it at "I AM A PART OF THE TEAM THAT DESIGNED TERASTODON OATH" and be done with this nitpicking ok? I've faced it numerous times although not with Tezz (mostly European Storm / Watskeburt?! which features the same shell as this Tezz build) and have always been glad to face it. Like I said earlier on in this thread, I haven't tested this Tezz list against Oath a lot (at least not enough to give any realistic kind of feedback) but I feel confident enough in claiming it's not at all as rough a matchup as most make it out to be in this thread, lets also cut the talk about RND Oath AKA Terastodon Oath because Tha Gunslinga's topic is lonely with all of you guys cluttering up this Tezz topic.

As far as business spells are concerned, the most popular oath builds are playing the following:
1 ancestral
1 tfk
1 tezz
1 tinker
1 jace
1 gifts
1 y- will
1 other half of time vault/key
4 oath of druid

Your first posted list contains:
1 ancestral
1 tfk
1 tezz
1 tinker
1 jace
1 gifts
1 y- will
1 other half of time vault/key
3 bobs
Difference of 4 oath and 3 bobs. Just looking at that oath has the advantage with more bombs and the bob “bomb” draws you into cards(which may or may not be good cards) oppose to just winning the game like oath does at the same cc. draw power versus win power with unequal numbers. Oath has a higher threat density than it’s ever had before. Granted that isn’t the entire picture.
You’re running less control than oath, and the same number of tutors. Very slight plus to oath. Oath gets regrowth over you though and that can be substantial.

To be honest, I run 4 FoW, 3 Drain, 3 Pierce (after boarding 3 duress / Seize add up for a total of 13) for 10 disruption slots which is exactly the same as Oath runs last time I checked.

Things this list has on oath:
+1 top- not very relevant
+3 repeal- seems bad against spell pierce. Does a cute trick with top for u1 (+1 if you want to replay your top and get back to where you were before.  +1 if you want to do any spinning)
Twister- something vroman oath used, but isn’t seeing much play in current elephant lists. The effect is symmetrical, but allows you to play catch up in a lot of situations, and benefits players with the most permanents. Also does recursion for y will. Compared to regrowth, I’d rather have regrowth for versatility. You can also pay a ton of mana repeal something and twist it away, however unlikely that is, but I’m sure it happens and can win a game every few months.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Oath as you stated is very similar to this deck (not a lot of cards differ) and I've played my fair share of control... If I have more tops then you, I get them into play faster, if I have top and you don't you're behind. Top = Card = Solutions = you're not winning. Clear and simple. Top is actually pretty similar to what LoA used to do in old control mirrors.

Recently I had been playing a lot of bob but have not liked it.  Repeal seems rather weak with the mount of spell pierce running around. U2 to bounce a pride mage or goyf seems a little hefty. The list posted relies heavily on cantrips and cantripping synergies, which very well might pay off, but I know a lot of people who have tested the “repeal + top” thing and no one is bringing it to any events. If it’s working for you, by all means keep playing it. I’m not calling you out or anything, but I was wondering if you have any tournament results with this list yet? If so, what were your matchups so we can get a sense of what Meta this list is for?

Beyond going 5-0 @ this as stated in the blue text at the beginning of this thread and Arjan going 5-0 with his list at the event the week before, along with us doing well with the Repeal / Top shell ever since we released it. I think I have enough data to at least back up a decklist on TMD. I've never claimed this deck was "the best" way to build Tezz or anything, I just split this topic because my tournament result thread was getting cluttered with discussion regarding our Tezz build (as this topic is seeing a lot of discussion as well, which I'm gratefull for don't get me wrong)

@Everybody,
Although It may seem that I'm responding a bit harsh it's only because we've put a lot of time into this list and a lot of the stuff that's come up in this thread has already been talked about (for example in the European Storm thread regarding Repeal / Top) or in other Tezz builds. I'm very very gratefull (once again) people are so interested in our lists and I do value all opinions and everything you guys are saying and I'm truly glad for all the positive (and negative / doubtfull) feedback I'm (we) are getting.

[Prospero]

Regarding Repeals, I have to say that the Repeals are effective against MUD, specifically against bouncing a Chalice set on 0, and allowing you to play Moxen, or other dead cards in your deck.  Dropping a Chalice on 2 is one of the strongest plays that a MUD player can make against a blue deck, so running an answer to it that doesn't cost two mana is very good.

In regards to the Hurkyl's argument, I can't imagine not running Hurkyl's in this environment.  It is exceptionally important against Shop decks, as many Shop decks have the ability to push you so far out of the game before you're able to make an effective play that not running a global bounce spell is effectively conceding the game, and potentially the match, in given cases.  Even a defensive Hurkyl's, as a board reset is important.

I can tell whoever is interested that the list has been sufficiently tested.  It wouldn't be put out there if it wasn't.  If you want to disagree with certain card choices, more power to you.  Maybe they're not right in your metagame.  But Marius knows what he's doing, and has had success with the build, so please take that in mind when addressing the deck, and him.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@marske
Calm down! No one ever called you a rookie, or asked you to prove anything (I even said specifically that I wasn’t calling you out or anything). You also don’t need to tell us what team you’re on, you name drop enough that we don’t need a reminder.



The "you" was a plural or general "you" meant for the readers of the thread as a whole.  I can see how you could read it that way, but consider some possibilities before getting all “harsh”. When I’m addressing someone you will see an “@” like you do here, I’m pretty sure that’s the common practice. If you want to tell me I’m wrong about this, send me a pm so we can discuss it there.
Don’t think you busted my bubble. My whole point was that the two lists are very similar. I was just giving a card by card comparison of the few cards that differ in the lists. I also gave a number of +’s to your list.  I also stated that top repeal has the possibility to be good. On a personal note, I would still rather have a resolved oath than bob because the win is more immediate. I Also said that just having more bombs isn’t the big difference between the two lists.
You do realize it’s not uncommon for oath to also bored duress effects, right? The average by my count is 2.  If they bring them in, you’re behind again
I never said top was completely irrelevant, just not very, you can still top into crap, or your opponent could find there 1 top early (it happens).

There’s also some interesting conversation about repeal that I’ve spawned and you’ve seemed to have missed.

Edit: And regardless of what team you’re on and who created what deck, it doesn’t make my thoughts on the matchup useless.  I also wouldn’t say that talking about a match up you’re extremely likely to encounter is off topic.

[voltron00x]

Repeal is very good against Oath, it always has been and will continue to be.  If you resolve Oath and it gets Repealed, you can fight a counter war that leaves you depleted so that the Tezz player might untap and win... or you can accept the Repeal and deal with the fact that you just got wrecked by a cantrip Time Walk.  Still, modern Oath is similar to Tezz with a higher 'oops, I win!' factor in exchange for higher variance due to some awkward opening hand possibilities.

This list should look a little strange to most American players, Marius is playing in a completely different meta.  Tezz isn't really a deck that carbon copies well from place to place.  I think one of the reasons that the deck hasn't been performing as well lately is complacence among many Tezz players.  We've consistently seen lists that look a little "off" from the mainstream - such as Brassman's - do well, while "standard" lists have struggled.

[Marske]

Calm down! No one ever called you a rookie, or asked you to prove anything (I even said specifically that I wasn’t calling you out or anything). You also don’t need to tell us what team you’re on, you name drop enough that we don’t need a reminder.

Sorry, the fact that you were telling me you'd try and help give me some insight into the Oath MU (especially regarding RND Oath which I was rather intimately involved with) kinda gave me the impression you were addressing a basic user that posts his 70 card "Vintage" Pile. Now, this might not have been your intend regarding that and I might have took it out of proportion a bit if so, my apologies. I didn't see it as a call out, I just responded rather harshly which I will admit might come from the fact that  once you've put that much time into something you get a bit defensive when somebody doesn't see how stuff works or even raises doubts as to you knowing what you're doing / talking about (it just came across that way)

No hard feelings, right? I didn't send this in a PM because it can easily be resolved here, now, onward with the discussion!

Don’t think you busted my bubble. My whole point was that the two lists are very similar. I was just giving a card by card comparison of the few cards that differ in the lists. I also gave a number of +’s to your list.

They are indeed very similar which makes sense since both lists come from the same people.

I also stated that top repeal has the possibility to be good. On a personal note, I would still rather have a resolved oath than bob because the win is more immediate. I Also said that just having more bombs isn’t the big difference between the two lists.

Yes, you did indeed state Top + Repeal is good. As to your personal note, True, Oath poses a bigger "I win the game next turn" threat. But, it's a lot worsh seeing your Oath countered then seeing your Confidant countered. Like I said, Arjan can back me up with this as he's tested even more. We've not been on the losing end of the RND-Tezz vs RND-Oath matchup unless they have turn 1 Orchard, Mox, Oath. It could be our results are tainted, or that our testing partners aren't up to par. Either way, I think we both feel rather good about how this deck can handle Oath.

As for resolving either Oath or Confidant against other decks, I've not had the good fortune as my other teammates had in just oathing into the right creature when you need it, often I'd oath into Iona against Shops when I'd rather have Terastodon or Oath into Terastodon when I'd rather have Iona (vs Dredge) or whatever, Confidant is almost always as good as it's going to be. I cannot imagine a matchup (barring maybe Dredge) where he doesn't get the job done.

You do realize it’s not uncommon for oath to also bored duress effects, right? The average by my count is 2.  If they bring them in, you’re behind again

If they bring in 2 Duress they're at 12 I'm at 13 (seeing my board has 3 duress) so I'm still slightly ahead.

I never said to was irrelevant, just not very, you can still top into crap, or your opponent could find there 1 of early (it happens).

Just like my opponent could resolve turn 1 Necro or turn 1 trinisphere, crazy topdecks happen, that's Vintage

There’s also some interesting conversation about repeal that I’ve spawned and you’ve seemed to have missed.

Can't see everything, Yes indeed Repeal is good against MUD for reasons Prospero stated. Don't forget, I'm bringing in 2 more global bounce and 2 E. Flux for a total of 3 global bounce, 3 Targetted bounce (Repeal) and 2 Fluxes to battle shop decks. This has proven to be a succesfull strategy so far..

@Voltron00x,

Repeal is very good against Oath, it always has been and will continue to be.  If you resolve Oath and it gets Repealed, you can fight a counter war that leaves you depleted so that the Tezz player might untap and win... or you can accept the Repeal and deal with the fact that you just got wrecked by a cantrip Time Walk.  Still, modern Oath is similar to Tezz with a higher 'oops, I win!' factor in exchange for higher variance due to some awkward opening hand possibilities.

You nailed it right on the spot there bro, Repeal can be a semi-time walk if casted correctly, I've setback other tezz lists (repeal Bob) this way as well. Maybe it's us crazy Euro's loving Repeal so much, but it's really good:)

This list should look a little strange to most American players, Marius is playing in a completely different meta.  Tezz isn't really a deck that carbon copies well from place to place.  I think one of the reasons that the deck hasn't been performing as well lately is complacence among many Tezz players.  We've consistently seen lists that look a little "off" from the mainstream - such as Brassman's - do well, while "standard" lists have struggled.

If you look close to Brass Man's list you'll see a lot of similarities with this one (I don't run red) because Brass man (a good friend I might say and a guy I talk to daily) and myself have a very similar way of looking at decks when we build them. He has run European storm (featureing the Repeal, Top Shell as seen in this Tezz build as well) and liked it so much he included it in his Tezz list (hitting top 8 @ Philly V)

It is, however, very true that I'm in a totally different meta then you guys and this list might have some rather odd choices compared to what I'd run if I where playing in the US. Which is something I've always stressed when posting a list on TMD.

[Cyberpunker]

＠Ｍａｒske

Please don't take anything personally. I never said anything against you or your team. I just don't think your deck is the strongest (maybe because we have different metas...yet Vintage meta should be international) But I am not going to lie when called/challenged to give my opinions...unless you want me to.

And really in all honesty I'm not like some people who post here...I post to get help or to actually help people in the best way I can...not to criticize them.

Have you ever played Oath of Druids? No offense buddy but I've played RND Oath

Yes, I have. I won 2 local tournaments and went 4-1 in a vintage tournament in Yokohama recently. (end shameless self promotion)

As for you saying that Forbidden Orchard will make Oath's mana base shakier...I want to point out that Forbidden Orchard can produce any mana. So it actually stabilizes Oath's 3 color mana base.

Its nice to know our views on Tezzeret and Oath and the metagame. I hope your tezzeret deck does well.

[Marske]

@Marske

Please don't take anything personally. I never said anything against you or your team. I just don't think your deck is the strongest (maybe because we have different metas...yet Vintage meta should be international) But I am not going to lie when called/challenged to give my opinions...unless you want me to.

No problem Stanley, you remember we've met IRL when you were in Holland?

And really in all honesty I'm not like some people who post here...I post to get help or to actually help people in the best way I can...not to criticize them.

I know, I try to do it as well, although I have the feeling I'm failing that part a bit now.

Quote
Have you ever played Oath of Druids? No offense buddy but I've played RND Oath

Yes, I have. I won 2 local tournaments and went 4-1 in a vintage tournament in Yokohama recently. (end shameless self promotion)

I failed to notice that, sorry, my bad.

As for you saying that Forbidden Orchard will make Oath's mana base shakier...I want to point out that Forbidden Orchard can produce any mana. So it actually stabilizes Oath's 3 color mana base.

It's a non-basic, I don't know what your area looks like, but Europe is flooded with Selkie and especially Wasteland, having an Orchard without an Oath and getting yet another land wasted isn't something I feel good about, I rather enjoy having 4 basics in any deck I play.

Its nice to know our views on Tezzeret and Oath and the metagame. I hope your tezzeret deck does well.

Heh, I hope you do good as well, and that you may some day return to Holland so we can have a match

[BruiZar]

Well, it's a good thing Oath runs plenty of gas so if the first Oath gets countered its not endgame.  Come talk to me after Oath Ponders, Brainstorms, Recalls, Tops, Thirsts, Vamp's, DT's, etc.

You're comparing Ponder, Brainstorm, Top, Thirst, Vamp to having an actual draw engine (Confidant, LoA, Top, Repeal, Jace, Brainstorm, Ancestral, TFK) I've played many games against oath in my Vintage career, from Oath's best lists (Tyrant Oath during GAT) to Double Dragon Oath, Iona Oath, TimeLess Oath you name it. The final, definitive flaw all these decks have is that they revolve around a 1G Enchantment that if kept of the table makes the deck be a shadow of what it is when it does have the enchantment. Not to mention when they only have Oath, then they need to go find a way to draw Orchard or Tutor it.

So, an unrestricted  card that wins the game the next turn is now considered a flaw? Doesn't Tezzeret cost 5 mana and not win the game it comes into play? Doesn't vault key cost 2+1 AND is restricted? Doesn't tinker bot cost 3 mana PLUS an artifact and give your opponent 3 extra turns before you win (sphinx)

The funny thing is, Oath runs all of these threats in addition to Oath of Druids, except maybe for Tezzeret, so the threat density of oath is bigger than Tezzeret.

[Rico Suave]

The funny thing is, Oath runs all of these threats in addition to Oath of Druids, except maybe for Tezzeret, so the threat density of oath is bigger than Tezzeret.

Oath is a Tezz deck that has 3 blanks instead of 1.  It is almost by definition that Tezz has a higher threat density. 

[pierce]

I was not being sarcastic. The list is very well designed. You may not know this, but I build a lot of decks. This has been especially true for vintage, since my school schedule has not allowed for a ptq attempt since november. In the past month I've built no fewer than 4 vintage decks, all of which are easily able to win tournaments in the right hands. Only my greedy sb descisions to try and dodge dredge have prevented the community from seeing two of these via t8 decklists.

We could talk for over an hour as to the nuances I see in your design--the snow covered basic is just the first that excites me. Sometimes you need to gifts for 4 different lands, and usually when you do--you want basics.
I sincerely mean that your list is well tuned.

Yeah, the tinker thing is arbitrary. I have a preference, and so do most players. Metagame usually dictates that slot. As for the imperial seal topic, at the point which you have decided against a fetchable swamp with your deltas, then I too would choose against running seal.

[Tobi]

On the Imperial Seal topic I have to say that I always loved it in my Tendrils build where I played Chromatic Spheres to turn the IS into a Demonic with 2 storm.
Now, in this list, Repeal turns it into a Demonic for UB (giving you one mana back if you Repeal a Mox). With a Tendrils copy in the deck this makes a storm kill a lot easier to do. And of course, it gives you a quicker access to Vault/Key.

On the other hand, 3 card disadvantage tutors is probably not what you want to have in this deck. Question is also what to cut.

[Marske]

@Pierce,

I was not being sarcastic. The list is very well designed. You may not know this, but I build a lot of decks. This has been especially true for vintage, since my school schedule has not allowed for a ptq attempt since november. In the past month I've built no fewer than 4 vintage decks, all of which are easily able to win tournaments in the right hands. Only my greedy sb descisions to try and dodge dredge have prevented the community from seeing two of these via t8 decklists.

Well in that case, thanks for the huge complement! I know you build a lot of decks, sadly dredge is a deck I simply cannot see myself run less then 6-7 cards against when playing a control deck, when I play a combo deck If I'm proficient enough with it I'll consider going down to 5 (as I did with TPS) but never below that.

We could talk for over an hour as to the nuances I see in your design--the snow covered basic is just the first that excites me. Sometimes you need to gifts for 4 different lands, and usually when you do--you want basics.

I'd be very interested in that talk

I sincerely mean that your list is well tuned.

Again, thank you.

Yeah, the tinker thing is arbitrary. I have a preference, and so do most players. Metagame usually dictates that slot. As for the imperial seal topic, at the point which you have decided against a fetchable swamp with your deltas, then I too would choose against running seal.

If we were to run Imperial Seal it would indeed require a basic swamp, with that we'd need to cut down 1 Sea (as I cannot stress how important having Basic U is against Stax) Having a Swamp and LoA in this deck could potentially give some awkward mulligan decisions as oppossed to having an U.Sea, LoA in a starting hand. The risk of it getting wasted could well be worth it, the risk of not drawing a U source not imho.

@Tobi,

On the Imperial Seal topic I have to say that I always loved it in my Tendrils build where I played Chromatic Spheres to turn the IS into a Demonic with 2 storm.
Now, in this list, Repeal turns it into a Demonic for UB (giving you one mana back if you Repeal a Mox). With a Tendrils copy in the deck this makes a storm kill a lot easier to do. And of course, it gives you a quicker access to Vault/Key.

On the other hand, 3 card disadvantage tutors is probably not what you want to have in this deck. Question is also what to cut.

These are all good points, it is however the fact that it is indeed the 3rd card disadvantage tutor makes me a bit uneasy to run it and like I said before in this post, it would require a Basic Swamp. If somebody thinks that wouldn't be a problem and wants to test it out, I'd advise to cut down 1 U.Sea (Swamp) and probably Merchant Scroll (Seal)