Kiln Fiend

[desolutionist]

This guy is like a super Wild Mongrel combined with Quirion Dryad.  I'm going to try him in some type 1 decks; seems really good with Lava Dart.  Does Surreal Memoir have a place in Vintage?

Lava Dart + Kiln Fiend = 9 damage
Surreal Memoir + Ancestral Recall = 9 cards
Surreal Memoir + Ancestral Recall + Kiln Fiend = 9 cards AND 10 damage
Surreal Memoir + Lightning Bolt + Kiln Fiend = 16 damage

Yawgmoth's Will + Kiln Fiend = infinite damage

[meadbert]

Kiln Fiend looks good.  It could work in a burn deck for sure and keep Berserk in mind.

At 4cc Memoir is too expensive for type 1 even if it gets you 2 cards out of the yard.  Randomness also hurts.

[Adan]

The same was said about Wee Dragonauts and they never saw play again. Kiln Fiend is just cheaper and gets a bigger boost, does this really make a huge difference between it and Dragonauts/Dryad?

No to mention that the restriction of the good cantrips make it difficult to chain cantrips into each other to skyrocket this thing (and back in the days where you could, Dragonnauts didn't see play either).

However, I can see him being stupid in some kind of RG Beatz with Bunrspells and Pyroblasts (and maybe Reckless Charge. Awake the kiddie inside you! ).

[TopSecret]

Comparing Kiln Fiend to Wee Dragonauts is not really useful, since Kiln Fiend costs one less without double colored mana and deals 3 damage instead of 2 for every instant or sorcery. With Wee Dragonauts, it cost three mana and then two instant or sorceries to deal 5. With Kiln Fiend, it one less mana to deal 7. The one less mana can also mean attacking earlier, playing Kiln Fiend on the first turn, and not throwing off the mana curve. These two cards are very different. Kiln Fiend also deals damage 3 times faster than Dryad in the short term for the same amount of mana if you are casting instants and sorceries, so that comparison is not really helpful either.

I think Kiln Fiend is good in Burn and any aggro deck that plays lots of instants or sorceries, or any deck interested in playing lots of instants and sorceries and could use a two mana card that has 4 to 7 power or more immediately.

His main disadvantage is only having two toughness and dying to blockers. Playing Repeal can make Kiln Fiend more difficult to block and pump him for free off a mox the rest of the time.

If you want to go nuts, just play Manamorphose and Repeal in a deck with Kiln Fiend. It's not exactly necessary, but it is hilarious. You could also play Ancient Stirrings to help cycle through the deck, find moxes and lotus, and enable less overall mana sources. That's sixteen cards right there. This deck practically builds itself. You could even add Street Wraith to up the chance of drawing Time Walk and Recall and maybe a Coatl or two, if you wanted to get techy. That's like 22-24 cards. Add in Force and the obviously over the top broken cards and less lands than usual and that's it.

[Delha]

The same was said about Wee Dragonauts and they never saw play again. Kiln Fiend is just cheaper and gets a bigger boost, does this really make a huge difference between it and Dragonauts/Dryad?

Cheaper and more effective is arguably also the only difference between Ancestral Recall and Divination. Costing one colored instead of two is a huge help in getting him down early, which is presumably the goal any deck running him wants.

T1 Land, Mox, Fiend (20)
T2 Land, Reckless Charge, Bolt, swing (7)
T3 Flashback Reckless Charge, swing (0)
This line of play isn't even especially farfetched. It only uses 4 nonland cards, most of which have viable analogues (Chrome Mox to push that up to 9, Chain Lightning for Bolt/Charge 9-12). The biggest problem IMHO, is  dependency on Fiend, and his vulnerability. I think any Fiend based deck is unlikely to see success, but I really want to see it tried.

@ Norm4eva: I agree that Kiln Fiend is far and away the closest thing to an answer that I've seen printed. Some analogies I see:
Furnace of Rath - Like a cheaper, but slower and more vulnerable version of this.
Quirion Dryad - Like a faster, but more all-in version of this. I personally think a UBR, duress heavy, aggro-control deck is the best place to abuse Fiend.
Tendrils of Agony - Kind of like a Tendrils that you cast before all your other spells.

And some issues I forsee:

1. Card Efficiency: Resolving 3 Bolts (or equivalent) is 19 damage. That means 4 spells to reach lethal on your T2 swing. 5 spells (including Fiend, excluding Mox) instead of 7 Bolt effects is definitely an improvement, but still vulnerable to a bad opening 7. Replacing any of those five w/ non-burn effects cuts your efficiency in half, and exacerbates this.

2. Mana Efficiency: I agree that hitting on turn one isn't that hard. Hitting for T2 lethal is a bit harder. At least Manamorphose and red rits help while counting as half a Bolt. Sphere effects hurt almost as badly as storm combo.

3. Speed: You have to pass the turn. That means they know what you are planning, and have time to look for their answer. Reckless Charge can mitigate this while serving as a Bolt analogue, but you only get 4 copies. The fact that Fiend has to come down first also means lots of games where you T1 tutor, then T2 cast and T3 swing. Less all-in than committing then looking for Tendrils.

4. Vulnerability: Creatures are inherently removable. Chain of Vapor, or anything else instant speed is brutal, as you're probably trading at roughly 4-for-1. This is less true if you've been using true burn spells, but even then, the efficiency gain disappears. More all-in than Tendrils, if viewed as all instant removal turning into Stifle.

[Troy_Costisick]

You could play Commune w/ Nature or Worldly Tutor to find him faster.  Lava Dart works well with him also.  An R/G version could play 8 spirit guides to speed things up.

[swawagon]

Manamorphose

[TheShop]

Shrap Blasting away that mox, casting a bolt or two, + a fireblast with that guy is a turn 2 kill.

T1: Land mox Guy (20)(hand=4)
T2: Draw, Land bolt Shrapblast/thing that hits everyone for 4, bolt, fireblast, swing (death) (hand=1)

While less likely, this is not outside the realm of possibility.  Shrap Blast + Fireblast + Fiend is 16.  You are looking at dealing 12-20 on turn 2 regularly if you can get fiend down on turn 1 and connect.

That said, it looks like the biggest problem here is that the deck is limited to
4 kiln fiend
4 fireblast

want 8 of each to win...you have 8 bolt, 8 2cmc 4-5 dmg spells...the problem is that 5-8 of the real finishers (fireblast and shrap blast) do not exist.

[honestabe]

I've been trying him in a Grow-type deck.  Results have been promising.  The biggest problem the deck has is that it NEEDS to resolve him.  Unlike the real grow, this deck can't just combo out and know that you'll draw him.

[serracollector]

Does Kiln count fork copies as instants that pump him?  Then first turn Kiln second turn fork + fireblast would be 18 damage.  Fork in almost any of the scenerios above would be amazing at that point.  So would Twincast being the same and blue. 

lol, but why not play a wee naut/Kiln deck with just broken blue and red instants?  Does punch for 5-10 damage a turn, no need to win turn one when you got counters and bounce etc.

[Evenpence]

Does Kiln count fork copies as instants that pump him?  Then first turn Kiln second turn fork + fireblast would be 18 damage.  Fork in almost any of the scenerios above would be amazing at that point.  So would Twincast being the same and blue. 

lol, but why not play a wee naut/Kiln deck with just broken blue and red instants?  Does punch for 5-10 damage a turn, no need to win turn one when you got counters and bounce etc.

Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, Kiln Fiend gets +3/+0 until end of turn.

It's whenever you cast, not whenever a spell goes on the stack.

I doubt Kiln Fiend will be any good.  While it's a fun idea, you need to have him in your opening hand and you need to resolve him.  Playing copious amounts of spells that do nothing but affect Kiln Fiend (like Reckless Charge) isn't awesome either.

You can run Serum Powder to increase the chances of getting him in your opening hand, and you can also run lots of draw too, but even then, you're playing catch-up vs. most decks, and I don't see how you ever have a winnable matchup vs. oath.

[Norm4eva]

I think his best application is in a deck that is already a basic Zoo+Burn or Sligh deck.  In this way, his role is IMO more like the Food Chain Goblin "combo" finish - it's a great way to kill an opponent, but it's not THE plan of the deck and it'll work without him.  The boost he provides to a Sligh or Burn deck is ridiculous though, he represents a means to double the damage of most of your spells.

Does it matter to anyone that Fiend + Reckless Charge + Berserk = 20 damages?

[Gambit]

How about in some type of blue/red storm deck? You have red for rituals and ETW, maybe grapeshot? With blue for draw, broken cards, daze and fow?

[Killane]

How about in some type of blue/red storm deck? You have red for rituals and ETW, maybe grapeshot? With blue for draw, broken cards, daze and fow?

But black has better rituals, the insane tutor package, YawgWin/Necro/Bargain, etc... plus Tendrils as a far superior Storm finisher. Why woudl you want to build a UR storm deck when UB is soooo much better in every way?

If you really want a "grow" guy in a storm shell, I submit that UB with Psychatog would still be miles better than UR with Kiln Fiend, not that the Tog is really optimal anymore, but nevertheless.

[Delha]

How about in some type of blue/red storm deck? You have red for rituals and ETW, maybe grapeshot? With blue for draw, broken cards, daze and fow?

...Why woudl you want to build a UR storm deck when UB is soooo much better in every way?

Yeah, I think that burn is the way to go if you're just trying to race. The biggest gain you make is that you only need to resolve 5 spells, instead of 10.

That said, I still think a UBR control-aggro build with a heavy Duress package is likely stronger. At the end of the day, I think I'd essentially be trying to use Fiend in a fishy shell as a fast clock. My big worry is no access to Trygon/Claim/etc for the Oath and Shops matchups.

[honestabe]

How about in some type of blue/red storm deck? You have red for rituals and ETW, maybe grapeshot? With blue for draw, broken cards, daze and fow?

...Why woudl you want to build a UR storm deck when UB is soooo much better in every way?

Yeah, I think that burn is the way to go if you're just trying to race. The biggest gain you make is that you only need to resolve 5 spells, instead of 10.

That said, I still think a UBR control-aggro build with a heavy Duress package is likely stronger. At the end of the day, I think I'd essentially be trying to use Fiend in a fishy shell as a fast clock. My big worry is no access to Trygon/Claim/etc for the Oath and Shops matchups.

I've been testing this.  Heavy duresses make it a fair matchup vs Oath.  Shops on the other hand... I've been using 2 ingot chewers, 2 shattering spree, 1 extra basic and a hurkyls and still get stomped by shops

[xouman]

I will also test Kiln with rouse (+5/+0 for 0 mana and 2 life), Invigorate (+7/+4 for 0 mana, but 3 life for opp), shadow rift (+3/+0 unblockable, cantrip for U). Colors should be clearly defined, Red is a must but then can add blue easily (counters, cheap cantrips) and then maybe black or green (black for acceleration, green for dryads/pump effects).

Seems solid agains Mud, can be quick enough to race Oath, but is really vulnerable to counters and creature hate.

[Troy_Costisick]

I will also test Kiln with rouse (+5/+0 for 0 mana and 2 life), Invigorate (+7/+4 for 0 mana, but 3 life for opp), shadow rift (+3/+0 unblockable, cantrip for U). Colors should be clearly defined, Red is a must but then can add blue easily (counters, cheap cantrips) and then maybe black or green (black for acceleration, green for dryads/pump effects).

Seems solid agains Mud, can be quick enough to race Oath, but is really vulnerable to counters and creature hate.

I like Shadow Rift.  Along those lines, you can examine cards like Blazing Shoal, Tidal Bore (to remove a blocker), Bounty of the Hunt, and Land Grant as free cards to pump him up.   

[Gambit]

I will also test Kiln with rouse (+5/+0 for 0 mana and 2 life), Invigorate (+7/+4 for 0 mana, but 3 life for opp), shadow rift (+3/+0 unblockable, cantrip for U). Colors should be clearly defined, Red is a must but then can add blue easily (counters, cheap cantrips) and then maybe black or green (black for acceleration, green for dryads/pump effects).

Seems solid agains Mud, can be quick enough to race Oath, but is really vulnerable to counters and creature hate.

I think the problem with this deck will be; What if you don't draw Kiln Fiend? Your deck will be full of terrible cards, maybe using Wee Dragonauts for kiln fiend 5-8; but doesn't seem great.

[meadbert]

What about running Quirion Dryad alongside Kiln Fiend?

[Troy_Costisick]

What about running Quirion Dryad alongside Kiln Fiend?

That would make good sense.  An R/G version would supply lots of pump spells along with disruption like Smash to Smithereens.

[Delha]

I think the problem with this deck will be; What if you don't draw Kiln Fiend? Your deck will be full of terrible cards, maybe using Wee Dragonauts for kiln fiend 5-8; but doesn't seem great.

Yeah, that's why I was suggesting that Fiend play a role similar to Goyf in Fish variants. Your deck doesn't stop working when he's not there, it just leeches three extra damage off all your sorcery discard effects. Counters would still help fill the gaps, but piercing their Oath or whatever doesn't help you on Fiend swings, which is why I was thinking a heavy Duress package.

[Miaou]

Rather than Wee Dragonauts as additional Fiends, why not try Flamekin Habringer. I know it is still terrible, but better than the other option in my opinion.
If you want a dedicated Fiend deck, then Reckless Charge and Double Cleave is 20 damage, but then again I think that this route isn't optimal...For casual though, I am having a ton of fun with turn 3 kills 

[meadbert]

2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
2 Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Quirion Dryad
3 Deep Analysis
4 Quiet Speculation
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
4 Force Of Will
4 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Lava Dart
1 Ray Of Revelation

Here is a start.
So countermagic bad with Fiend because you would rather grow him on your turn than your opponent's turn.  Force is still too broken not to run though.
The above list might have too much draw.  In particular AKs are not needed.  Instead speed is not that important.  They might be better as Careful Study so irrelevant hate can be pitched.  Quiet Speculation works really well in this deck since it is basically a Recall and grows Fiend and Dryad.
There are only 9 cards for disruption which seems low, but Speculation frequently gets disruption where as most lists do not tutor for their disruption.
It is tempting to run black because Yawg is so insane with this deck and Duress is better than counter magic since you play it on your turn.  The problem is that only matters if you already have Dryad or Fiend out and by then Duress has lost much of its power.
This is pretty rough and there is room for improvement, but the Speculation engine works well with Fiend.
Hurkyl's or some answer to Leviathan might be needed.

[Delha]

If you want a dedicated Fiend deck, then Reckless Charge and Double Cleave is 20 damage...

Hahaha, cute! I want to throw that together now.

...LIST...

Here is a start.
So countermagic bad with Fiend because you would rather grow him on your turn than your opponent's turn.  Force is still too broken not to run though...

...This is pretty rough and there is room for improvement, but the Speculation engine works well with Fiend.
Hurkyl's or some answer to Leviathan might be needed.

Agreed that countermagic is bad for Fiend, but how does this list handle Oath/Tezz? Both have a faster kill and more counters, so I'm not sure how well 3x Grudge and 1x Ray will be able to punch through. TPS/Dredge are probably just able to race. Also, the grave dependency worries me, Leyline seems like a nightmare.

[meadbert]

That list handles Oath and Tez by losing to them.  It is obviously not competitive.  Darkblast is probably more problematic than Leyline.

Leyline may weaken Intuition and the Flashback cards, but it only shuts off Speculation.

EDIT:
So I have been thinking about the Oath and Tez issues and I am really not sure what to do or what can be done.
Basically you either have to race them or out-control them.  Racing them is not practical because while Fiend is fast he is just not Vault/Key fast or even Oath fast.  He is more or a turn 3 win at best and usually more of a turn 4 win.
This leaves control, but as mentioned earlier countermagic and Fiend do not play well together at all.  Instead of countermagic some combination of Ray of Revelation, Ancient Grudge and maybe even Duress is possible but I cannot think of how to implement that properly.

[xouman]

My list also included 4 quiet speculation This is more or less the list

4 kiln fiend
4 force of will
4 daze
2 misdirection
1 gush
4 quiet speculation
3 deep analysis
3 lava dart
2 ancient grudge
1 reckless charge
1 flash of insight
3 careful study
1 frantic search
1 double cleave
1 mystical tutor
1 shadow rift
4 manamorphose
1 brainstorm
1 ponder
18 lands

It is an unpowered list (no proxies in my environment). 10 counters in order to protect Kiln and avoid losing (misdirection is quite useful against STP) :p 4 quiet speculation and 10 flashback cards (lava dart must be at least 2, better 3: you often will play play quiet speculation next turn you played kiln, and lava dart is a finisher) Flash of insight is great with 10 counters, quiet speculation, careful... and and DA is just great here.

Gush does not convince me, it would be replaced easily with Ancestral, and time walk would be also nice.


I would like to test impulse(finds kiln if you have not one, or more fuel), sleight of hand, intuition (quite expensive, tough), overmaster, fireblast... or a black version


4 kiln fiend
4 rite of flame
4 manamorphose
2 empty the warrens
4 dark ritual
4 duress
2 thoughtseize
4 dark confidant
2 skeletal scrying
1 yawgmoth's will
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
2 rouse

...

Still not a competitive deck :p

[madmanmike25]

For those that remember mono-red burn think about t2 Kiln Fiend, T3 Lightning bolt, Fireblast, FORK.

But seriously, decks designed solely around this card won't be that good.  I think decks that might use Empty the Warrens or maybe even Storm Entity (who knows, just tossing it out there) may be on to something.

Remember there is not much of a point in playing a bunch of instants and sorceries if your only win con is 4 creatures w/o haste.  Get more threats and then you have a shot.  I would also try to minimize or avoid cards that would merely target Kiln Fiend and have no useful application on their own.

I also think Goyf makes a better companion than Dryad.  Why would you choose 2 creatures you have to grow when you can have 1 that comes into play already big?

Maybe some of you would do better to take another look at Psychatog.

[meadbert]

IMHO Dryad > Goyf in a grow deck.  That is not to say that 4 Dryad and 0 Goyf makes sense, but I would definitely run as many or more Dryads as Goyfs.

I will say that Darkblast is a huge pain and that Goyf dodges Darkblast is significant.

Quiet Speculation allows a lot of siliness with the Grow cards.

A game with my brother went like this.  Turn 1 Fiend resolves.
Turn 2 I Scroll for Recall with Force backup but my brother has 2 Spell Pierce so that fizzles.  Swing for 10.
Turn 3 I Quiet Speculation for 2xAncient Grudge and Lava Dart, shoot 2 Moxen and Confidant and swing for 13.

If Fiend had been Dryad then Dryad would have swung for 4 on turn 2 and then 8 on turn 3 so it still would have been a turn 4 win probably, although I obviously would have held back Grudge in case of Vault/Key.

More than Hurkyl's Recall I have wanted Berserk.  The solution to a robot is just to Trample over it.
I am still not saying that this deck is good, but it does have some powerful plays.


Tog opens up a different line of play.  What I like about Tog is that it allows the dropping of Green for Black.  This means Ancient Grudge goes away, but Duress effects can replace those.  Obviously Yawg is insane.  A token Recoup might be good since you can Speculation for it and it can get back Walk or a countered Yawg.

[Son of Serra]

If you do not want to splash Green or just want more Berserk-type effects, "Fling" would be a good solution to bypassing robots.