Dawn of the Dead 2010

[NilsH]

About the auther:
This is one of my first posts on TMD, so I’ll give a short introduction of myself. I’m from Norway and started playing MtG in my mid teens in 1997. I started playing Vintage (semi-competative) around 2000, doing well at my local store with the same Nethervoid Deck that Zherbus  played at the time. I had a break from Vintage from 2004 until 2009, but did had a comeback in 2006 winning the Norwegian Vintage Nationals (with Draw7 Storm).
Unfortunatly my local vintage scene has shrinked during my break, and currently there are only 4-6 playing Vintage on a competativ level, and maybe 8 casual vintage players. The past year I have attended to some of the major tournements in Europe; BOM3 and German Magic 1 to get tournament experience in larger events.

About the deck:
I wanted to try another take on the Dawn of the Dead from the old, which I think was first developed by Vroman at this forum. The idea is the keep disrupting your opponent with discard, while digging and filtering through your deck with Bazaar. Then beat him to death with Goyf before he can recover.
I allways liked the Bazaar-Squee engine, and I think that the new printing of Bloodghast will be a good inclusion to the deck. I acknowlegde that this may not win any larger tournaments, but I do think it can do well at local scenes if tuned to your meta. My goal is to make this deck as good as possible.  

Previous discussions and lists:
Dawn of the Dead http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=34971.60

Maindeck (first draft):
// Lands   
4   City of Brass
2   Riftstone Portal
2   Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1   Cabal Pit
1   Undiscovered Paradise
3   Wasteland
1   Strip Mine
   
4   Bazaar of Baghdad
   
// Creatures   
4   Tarmogoyf
4   Krovikan Horror
4   Squee, Goblin Nabob
4   Dark Confidant
4   Bloodghast
   
// Spells   
2   Mox Diamond
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet
1   Lotus Petal
1   Black Lotus
   
3   Cabal Therapy
3   Duress
   
1   Time Walk
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Balance
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Demonic Consultation
1   Life from the Loam
1   Zombie Infestation


Card by card analysis:

Card draw:

Squee/Krovakian Horror/Bazaar is our primary engine. Note that horror can be returned EACH end step as long as a creature is directly above it. This allow real abuse with multiple Bazaars or Zombie Infestation.

Dark Confidant is our secondary engine and he also provide a (slow) clock. He makes us less dependant on Bazaar.

Ancestral Recall – The best card in the game.


Disruption:

Duress/Thoughtseize complements Cabal Therapy. I chose to play duress in my controll and combo heavy meta. Discard slows controll and combo down to our pace, and give us time to get our draw engine online.

Cabal Therapy plays nicely with Bloodghast. Paired with duress you don’t have to make blind calls too often.


Creatures:

Squee/Horror: See above. Some times we might want to play Horror to give all our creatures the ability ping the opponents creatures, and to give our Bloodghasts protection from StP. In some rare occations we might use squee as a recuring blocker.

Bloodghast is fuel for Bazaar and a recuring  beatstick. Bloodghast also helps activating the Horrors in the GY. Also, Multiple Bloodghasts + a Horror in play is kind of funny against creature decks…

Dark Confidant: See above.

Tarmogoyf: Big beatstick, usally 5/6 in this deck.

Zombie Infestation comboes with Squee/Horror.  With  2 Horror and 1 Squee, or 1 Horror and 2 Squee,  we can make multiple tokens; one each turn. Zombie Infestation is good against decks that want to attack with creatures. It’s also good against stax to keep your number of permanents high (to negate Smokestack and Tangle Wire).


Misc:

Time Walk is very good in this deck. It lets us draw extra of Confidant, Untap our Bazaar and we’ll get an extra  attack.

Demonic Tutor/Vampiric Tutor/Demonic Consult get the card(s) we need.  Consult can be risky, but it usally get a 4-of, like Confidant, Bazaar etc. I win more games (that I otherwise would have lost) playing it, then I deck myself.

Balance can be insane sometimes, and sometimes not. Multiple moxes first turn followed by Balance is really good. It also act as a wrath against fish.

Life from the Loam helps fuel the Bazaar, protects us from opponents waste effetcts, and gives us recuring land- and creature removal with Waste/Strip and Cabal Pit.

Mox Diamond - Pitching a land to Diamond early some times hurt, but they helps us keep up the pace. Duress + Bazaar or Confidant first turn is worth it. Later in the game the loss of a land doesn’t hurt at all, usally your hand fill be filled with land due to Loam, Confidant or Bazaar anyway.


Lands:

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth produce mana of our main color, and let Bazaar tap for mana.

Riftstone Portal let Bazaar tap for mana. Also works well with Diamonds. With Urborg in play and Riftstone in the GY we get all the colored mana we need.

City of Brass – The best 5c land.

Undiscovered Paradise is currently tested as our 5th 5c land. It works well with Bloodghast.

Wastelands – Secound best land destruction.

Stripland – The best land destruction.

Cabal Pit is  a oncolor land and a creature removal. Very powerfull with Loam versus fish etc.


Cards that were considered:

Crop Rotation gets Bazaar turn 1. Geting it countered hurts bad, and is the reason I chose not to run it (almost every deck in my meta run 4 FoW, and many of them is also packing 4 spell pierce…).

Sol Ring and Mana Crypt was excluded because this deck doesn’t use much colorless mana. I use Mox Diamonds instead.
For the same reason Mox Ruby was dropped at some point for Lotus Petal.

Basking Rootwalla was tested in the spot of Tarmogoyf. He was OK, but to mana intensiv (pump ability) and to small to fight fish creatures.

Darkblast was tested to destroy Confidants and Fish decks. Cabal Pit was chosen instead because it works double duty as both mana source and creature removal. Cabal Pit is very powerfull with Loam.

Diabolic Edict to handle Tinker-Robot. Currently in the SB.

StP to handle fish and Sphinx. Currently in the SB.


Matchup Analysis:

As mentioned in the opening I don’t have a large vintage meta, so my testing is somewhat limited. I did some testing at my local store with the list above and this sideboard:

3 True Beliver
3 Gaddok Teeg
1 StP
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Duress
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Ancient Grudge

I expected some Oath, TPS, Stax and some random decks to show up.

TPS: I played several games versus TPS. The discard heavily disrupted them. Mid- and lategame I destroyed them with my superior draw engine.
After sideboard I brought in my ”hatebears”: 3 True Beliver, 3 Gaddok Teeg, 1 Diabolic Edict and 1 Duress.  I took out 4 Goyf, 1 Balance, 2 Horrors, 1 Wasteland. The reasoning behing this was both True Beliver and Gaddok Teeg keep him from winning, the forth Duress will disrupt him even more, and the Edict will answer his Tinker. The Goyf was boarded out because the ”bears” are better, and they’re GY dependant. Balance doesn’t do much in this MU because TPS doesn’t have many permanents besides lands and artifact, and our handsizes is about the same. Horrors were taken out because I didn’t want to be to GY dependant.
He sideboarded in 4 Leyline of the Void, hoping they would save him the same way as versus dregde.
After sideboard his hand was even more crippeled by my discard. His Leylines slow me down, but Confidants still fueled me with cards giving me the upper hand. He could also not find answer to my multiple ”hatebears”.
After six games (2 pre board and 4post board) I was up 5-1. My only loss was to a resolved Tinker with FoW backup for my Edict.

NobleFish: My draw engine was clearly superior. I don’t play islands, so Selkie’s islandwalk is irrelevant, and I can deny him cards with chump blockers like Squee or Zombie tokens. Both Cabal Pit (with Loam) and Zombie Infestation was good in these matches. A Consult for Balance also totally wrecked his board one time I was in trouble.
After sideboard I brought in a StP and a Edict, but I don’t remember what I boarded out (probally Bloodghast or Horrors). He did bring in some GY removal like Tormod’s Crypt and Relic of Progentitus, but they were only minor speed bumps. If Fish starts showing up in numbers I would change to Thoughtseize over Duress.
I thought this could be a hard matchup, but after four games I was 4 to 0.

Stax: I didn’t get to play this matchup much. I lost my first game to Workshop Thrinisphere on turn 1 (he started). I’m almost certain that I would have won if I started (I had a hand of moxes and a Bazaar).
He brought in Leyline after sideboard. I brought Grudges. We played two games, taking one each.  Can’t say much about this matchup, seems even or slightly in their favor. They can take advantage of my manalight build.


Further development:

I’m not sure if a 5c manabase is the right call, or rather cut it to BG(w) with duals and fetches. I think it will be hard to find room for basics, so I’ll stick with my 5c lands for the moment. I might feel differently if my meta had more Wastelands and mana disruption.

Without Bazaar or Zombie Infestion the deck has some number of dead draws: Squee and Horror. Zombie Infestation has been very good every game, so I’ll think another Zombie Infestation shoud be added. This will also reduce the frequency when Squee and Horrors are dead draws.

Tarmogoyf is good, but I noticed I usally discarded him to Bazaar early in the game. I much rather play cards that disrupt my opponent early on, and play Goyf in mid-late game to finish him off. Hence, I think 1-2 Goyf can be cut. (In a aggro/creature heavy meta you might want to keep all 4 though).

As mention above I want to disrupt my opponent as much as possible. I think the forth duress would be good if we can find room.

You might have noticed that the current build doesn’t have an answer to a resolved enchantment or artifact in the maindeck? Although it haven’t been a problem so far, a Seal of Cleansing or some Nature’s Claims could be considered. (Seal of Primordium can’t take Sphinx, so Seal of Cleansing is better).

I board out 1-2 Horrors a lot. Maybe cut 1 or 2 from the main.

I noticed that Grugde and Ray of Revelation wasn’t that good because of Leyline of the Void. Grudge is also a bit hard to cast from hand because my lands usally produce BGW (due to Urborg and Riftstone Portal).

I will try something like in the maindeck:
-2 Horrors
-1 or 2 Goyf

+1 Zombie Infestation
+1 Seal of Cleansing
+1 Duress  or a Land (if you face a lot of Waste)

In the sideboard I’ll cut the Grudges and Ray for Nature’s Claim.

EDIT: added a link to previous discussions.

[meadbert]

Have you considered Skullclamp?  It helps in case of a Goyf stalemate and provides some draw in case you do not have Bazaar.  Also if you do not have Bazaar but do have Squee you could hardcast Squee into Clamp although that is fairly week.

Clamp can also save you from a Bobicide.

[madmanmike25]

Personally I think that 5c strategies that use CREATURES as a win condition is a bad idea.  Five colors in conjunction with  Waste+Strip in the same deck is something I just do not understand.

But it's a fun deck concept to be sure.  Only 1 Infestation does seem odd.  More zombies mean more brain eating, and that's what we want.  Some cards you may want to consider:

Oath of Ghouls
Survival of the Fittest
Eternal Witness+Unearth
Entomb
Fatty creature to Reanimate

I'm not a fan of casting Cabal Therapy blindly.  I'm sure theres some cute tricks you can do by targeting yourself, but I think Thoughtseize is just more powerful in a g1 turn 1 situation if thats your only disruption.

Good luck,
Mike

[silvernail]

3   City of Brass
2   Riftstone Portal
2   Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1   Cabal Pit
2   Undiscovered Paradise
3   Wasteland
1   Strip Mine
   
4   Bazaar of Baghdad
 
2 Skullclamp
 
// Creatures   
3   Wild Mongrel
3   Krovikan Horror
3   Squee, Goblin Nabob
3   Dark Confidant
3   Bloodghast
   
// Spells   
2   Mox Diamond
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet
1   Lotus Petal
1   Black Lotus
   
3   Cabal Therapy
3   Duress
1   fastbond
1   Berserk 
1   Time Walk
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Balance
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Demonic Consultation
1   Life from the Loam
2   Zombie Infestation

I would try it like this with the wild mongrel + berserk as a wild card finish with ghast + clamp + fastbond as a way to build it up. These additions also play well with each other and give you added ways to get card advantage.

[NilsH]

Have you considered Skullclamp?  It helps in case of a Goyf stalemate and provides some draw in case you do not have Bazaar.  Also if you do not have Bazaar but do have Squee you could hardcast Squee into Clamp although that is fairly week.

Clamp can also save you from a Bobicide.

Clamp was included in an early list. It was dropped due to limited deck space and because I felt I had enough draw with Bob and Bazaar. I didn't like Clamps in multiples, but maybe 2 could be included. You bring up valid points, both Goyf stalemate and low life totals with Bob. I've never died to Bob though; Cabal Therapy prevents Bobicide (as you so nicely put it). Some number of Clamps should be tested as they are very good with Bloodghast in particular.

Personally I think that 5c strategies that use CREATURES as a win condition is a bad idea.  Five colors in conjunction with  Waste+Strip in the same deck is something I just do not understand.

Don't let the 5c lands fool you. We can play 80% of our spells (that was meant for being played) with . The 5c lands are mostly for SB options and a few silver bullets/broken cards maindeck (Power blue and Balance). Still, I understand the conscern about the manabase. I think a manabase with duals, basics and fetches would be better in a meta with mana denial strategis; probably cutting power blue and the Mox Sapphire. I would like to discuss this option further.

But it's a fun deck concept to be sure.  Only 1 Infestation does seem odd.  More zombies mean more brain eating, and that's what we want.  Some cards you may want to consider:

Oath of Ghouls
Survival of the Fittest
Eternal Witness+Unearth
Entomb
Fatty creature to Reanimate

Your right, 1 Infestation is to little. In my testing I was allways happy to see that card, and often tutored for it to finish the game.

As for your other suggestions:

• Survival of the Fittest is too mana intensiv for green mana for this deck.
• Eternal Witness is strong, but   is bit though. Green is not our main color, and CC=3 is also on the upper end.
• Entomb was tested at some point. For most of the time it got a Life from the Loam. I found it uses to be limited. If we add in a fatty it will add some options with Entomb.
• A fatty is possible, but I think it will change the direction of the deck because the we also need to bring in reanimation spells. We'll might end up with some kind of Cerebral Assain Hybrid.
• Oath of Ghouls is an interesting option. It fills the same role as Squee and Horror. Oath is also very good with the Evoke cards from Lorwyn. A splash red (dropping blue) for Ingot Chewer could improve the Stax matchup. Shriekmaw could also be tested for the fish matchup (although this matchup is allready in our favor). I really like the idea of Oath. Good find!  

I'm not a fan of casting Cabal Therapy blindly.  I'm sure theres some cute tricks you can do by targeting yourself, but I think Thoughtseize is just more powerful in a g1 turn 1 situation if thats your only disruption.

Good luck,
Mike

Blind calls with Therapy is rare. If possible we'll play Duress before Therapy (obviously). Even when we haven't had a peek at our opponents hand, we still hit most of the time be evaluting the opponents lands in play, open mana, previous plays etc. The only time Therapy is totally blind is turn 1, game 1, on the play, versus an unknown opponent. I definatly get more 2-1 for with Therapy and Bloodghast, then I miss with a blind Therapy. If a blind Therapy is my only play on turn 1 I'll probably mulligan anyway.

[serracollector]

My suggestions:

-1 ancestral
-1 time walk
-1 balance
-1 K. Horror
-1 Squee
-1 Tarmogoyf

+2 Skull Clamp
+1 Fastbond
+1 Zombie Infestation
+2 Unearth


-4 City of Brass
-2 Riftstone Portal
-1 Undiscovered Paradise
-1 Urbog

+2 Taiga
+2 Badlands
+2 Bayou
+2 Fetchland

This will help stabalize the mana base, keeping it just 3 colors.  Between Bazaar, Confidants, and Skullclamp, you don't need to screw the mana base for Ancestral.
With Unearth, those earlier chucked Goyfs/Confidants can easily come back for 1 mana.
Fastbond does way more for you than Timewalk.
With the 6 discard affects (9 if you count Flash back of Therapy) there is no need for balance.  You should have more creatures in play anyways.  I would think it hurts you more than them.

My 2 cents, hope it helps.

[Delha]

This will help stabalize the mana base, keeping it just 3 colors...

How does that help stabilize the manabase at all? You cut five lands that produce any color needed and replaced them with duals, which produce 2/3 of colors needed. You made random color screw go up, and vulnerability to Wasteland based color screw go WAY up.

[NilsH]

I would try it like this with the wild mongrel + berserk as a wild card finish with ghast + clamp + fastbond as a way to build it up. These additions also play well with each other and give you added ways to get card advantage.

I would think Wild Mongrel + Berserk is more fun than good. In order to make Berserk game winning you need something like a 7/7 Mongrel (14/7 with Berserk), which implies discarding 5 cards to Mongrel. This is also under the assumption that the opponent has allready taken some damage. With 6 cards (5 random + berserk) I rather make three 2/2 zombie tokens.

This will help stabalize the mana base, keeping it just 3 colors...

How does that help stabilize the manabase at all? You cut five lands that produce any color needed and replaced them with duals, which produce 2/3 of colors needed. You made random color screw go up, and vulnerability to Wasteland based color screw go WAY up.

You're right, with duals we'll color screw more often and vulnerability to Wasteland will be even worse.


I did some testing with the suggestions in this thread.

I tried playing 2 Scullclamps cutting power blue and with a landbase with fetches, duals and basics. Scullclamp is obviously good with Bloodghast, but Ghast was also only creature I found it beneficial to equip (I rather keep my Confidants alive). Hence, Clamps was only usefull in few situations.

As mentioned earlier by myself and serracollector, the landbase can be changed away from 5c lands to fetches, duals and basics. Here are my thoughts:

• You are less likely to color screw with 5c lands. As Delha said, if you play duals a well timed Wasteland can screw you.
• Fetches allow for multiple landfall triggers. This is kind of important in a not so obvious way. This situation came up quit often with the initial build: Activate Bazaar -> discard random card, Krovakian Horror and Bloodghast; play land. Do we put Bloodghast in play with the landfall trigger or leave it in the yard to get the Horror back EOT? With fetchlands we get both
  
• In order to get a more stable manabase we need basics. Probably a swamp, and maybe a plain if we chose to play StP.
• Most people will take our Bazaars before hitting our mana lands.
• We take some pain with City of Brass, but is has yet to be problem. If we swap Duress for Thoughtseize lifeloss might be more problematic.
• It will be harder to find room for Wastelands without 5c lands. We need more duals, basics and fetches to cover our need for colored mana

I also want to point out that I haven't had any problems with my 5c landbase so far. I'm not afraid of Wastelands, but Bloodmoon/B2B effects is bad...

I also did some testing with Oath of Ghouls, adding 3 Oath and the 4th Duress and removing 4 Kroviakion Horrors (thinking Oath and Horrors fill somewhat simular roles in the deck). Oath of Ghouls was much slower than Horrors, I needed to get a  enchantment into play before I could take full advantage of my Bazaar. That being said, Oath was very powerful mid- to lategame.
To take full advantage of Oath added some Quasali Pridemages for some Goyfs. Pridemages hit Oath, Time Vault, Stax and makes Bloodghast a better attacker.
Oath of Ghouls is certainly a new direction to take this deck (compare with previous builds in the link in my opening post for reference if you like). Oath is useless in multiples though, and I found 3 Oaths to be too much. I'll try a with a 2/2 split between Oath and Horrors. I'll post my new list after some testing.

As mentioned in my opening post (and in the previous DotD thread) Stax/MUD is one of the harder matchups. Some SB spaces for artifact destruction may improve this, maybe some Nature's Claims and Kataki War Wage. If we could fit some Pridemages in the main, the matchup should be improved(?) Any suggestions?

I will do some testing against Oath. I don't have any Dregde players in my local meta, and only one Shop player; if anyone with interess in the deck would like to do some testing it will be appriated. 
Regarding the Dregde matchup, both Wasteland/Strip Mine and Cabal Therapy should be useful. Waste for hitting Bazaar and Therapy for removing Bridges.

Thanks for all suggestions. Keep posting 

[NilsH]

This is what I've been testing

// Lands
    1 Strip Mine
    3 Wasteland
    1 Cabal Pit
    2 Riftstone Portal
    1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1 Plains
    1 Swamp
    1 Bayou
    1 Scrubland
    3 Marsh Flats

    4 Bazaar of Baghdad

// Creatures
    4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
    4 Bloodghast
    3 Krovikan Horror

    4 Dark Confidant
    3 Qasali Pridemage
    2 Tarmogoyf

// Spells
    2 Mox Diamond
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Lotus Petal

    4 Thoughtseize
    3 Cabal Therapy

    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Demonic Consultation

    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Oath of Ghouls
    2 Zombie Infestation

The changes are:
-1 Mox Sapphire
-1 Time Walk
-1 Ancestral Recall
-3 Duress
-2 Tarmogoyf
-1 Krovakian Horror
-1 Balance

+1 Land. The whole landbase has changed to include 2 basics.
+4 Thoughtseize
+1 Oath of Ghouls
+3 Qasali Pridemage
+1 Zombie Infestation

• The blue cards where a bit hard to cast in the initial build as they were not supported by Riftstone or Urborg. With fetches and duals they're simple not worth splashing for.
  
• Duress was swapped for Thoughtseize and upped to a 4-of, as suggested earlier.
  
• One Krovikan Horror was cut because they're bad without Zombie Infestation or Bazaar. One Oath of Ghouls is currently tested as a replacement for the Horror. Seems good with Pridemages. Two Goyfs were cut to make room for Pridemages.
  
• Balance were cut, but I still think it should be considered maindeck. It can wreck the opponent. Bazaar makes it less of a dead draw as you can just discard it.
  
• Zombie Infestation was added. I'm confidant that 2 is the right number!  
  

[RecklessEmbermage]

Very interesting deck.

Once you add pridemages to the main, the value of clamp should go up substantially. Have you tested pridemage and clamp in the same build?

[serracollector]

I am still curious is Oath of Ghouls is better than a Unearth or 2.

Costs 1 mana less
Put ALL of your creatures into play not into hand.
Squee and Horrors return to your hand anyways, and Blodghast hits play, so Oath is for Goyf, Confidants and Prides which can get returned immediately for cheaper with Unearth.
You do not have to wait a turn to use Unearth.
It can cycle if you don't need it. Useful with bazaar.

True an EARLY oath with a bazaar against MUD could give you a pridemage lock, but with it being a singleton, that would be a few and far between situation.

Also, I been testing a RGB version of your deck thats a lil more aggressive using Kiln Fiend, Unearth, and Lightning Bolts.  It's doing decent, but I don't have as much disruption, only 4 Duress and 2 Grudge, so it has to race tezz/oath.

Anyways in my testing I must say Fastbond and skullclamp should somehow be fitted in as an auto include.  Bloodghast + Clamp + Fastbond = draw your deck. 

Hope this helps.  Good luck, I like it.

[vassago]

This is a deck I tend to play for fun a lot of the times. So i will give my horrible opinion.

1 Blue isnt needed as it makes the deck too weak inn the mana department.
2. Gaddock teeg has been the absolute nuts in my experience, but that has changed a lot since Tendrils decks are not as common as they were.
3. Life from the Loam should be a two of, as well as zombie infestation. 
4. Where is thoughtsieze?
5. Off color moxen is just a waste of time with this deck. I wouldnt actually play more than one Mox Diamond as well as play Lotus Petal
6.  Diabolic Edict and Swords to Plowshares should be in the deck. Shops and Oath are some of the best performing decks currently. They heavily rely on dudes. blah blah blah

Those are my first impressions I had while looking at the list and the explinations of it. I haven't had the time to actually think baout it or sleeve up the deck and try it. That leads me to Bloodghast, this looks interesting, and I wouldn't rule it out. I don't know how much I like it, but it could be good.  I haven't tried Krovikan Horror either, but I wouldn't, because I personally think it's shit, and wouldn't even consider it to begin with. That is, however, my personal opinion, so take it as such. 

Hope this helps!

[BruiZar]

Serracollector:

If you are running red,  I'd seriously consider sideboarding Hammer Mage for Mud. It works with Krovikan Horror and Squee, and can be Unearthed. Ancient Grudge is good, no doubt, but hammer mage is practically a hardlock. I wouldn't run Oath of Ghouls. It's simply too slow and I think it requires a different deck to worth. Stick with Unearth.

[serracollector]

Other possibilities if you stick to white instead of red for Unearth/Squee/Horror:

Icatian Cryer:  good tech versus tanglewire/smokestack, UPKP get swuee or horror, chuck to Ication get 2 tokens etc to tap or sac.

But Hammer Mage is beast,  early turn 1 drop, turn 2, for 1 red mana destroy ALL your opponenets moxes.  Or heck you can go Mox land him, turn 2 land, and destory all sphere's, moxes, and sol ring/mana vault.


Also, a question I got into while testing, and I do not know the answer:

If you have 4 Krovikian Horror, and Zombie Infestation can you do an EOT infinite loop with them making infinite tokens?  Maybe thats the whole point of the deck and I missed it, I been playing it as you CAN'T do that, and still been doing really well.

[NilsH]

Thanks for all responses 

I am still curious is Oath of Ghouls is better than a Unearth or 2.

I don't think the Oath of Ghouls is needed. It's powerful, but it's also very slow.

Hope this helps.  Good luck, I like it.

Thanks, all suggestions are appritiated. 

This is a deck I tend to play for fun a lot of the times. So i will give my horrible opinion.

1. Blue isnt needed as it makes the deck too weak inn the mana department.
2. Gaddock teeg has been the absolute nuts in my experience, but that has changed a lot since Tendrils decks are not as common as they were.
3. Life from the Loam should be a two of, as well as zombie infestation. 
4. Where is thoughtsieze?
5. Off color moxen is just a waste of time with this deck. I wouldnt actually play more than one Mox Diamond as well as play Lotus Petal
6.  Diabolic Edict and Swords to Plowshares should be in the deck. Shops and Oath are some of the best performing decks currently. They heavily rely on dudes. blah blah blah

1. Blue has been cut in my latest list.
2. Teeg can be nuts against some decks, but I'll consider this meta dependant.
3. The second Zombie Infestation has been added in my latest list. A single Life from the Loam has been sufficent for me. I only need for my mid- lategame.
4. Duress vs Thoughtseize is a metacall. In my meta Duress > Thoughtseize, but in my latest list (for an unknown meta) I have 4 Thoughtseizes.
5. I've never played off color moxen; the Mox Sapphire were cut when I cut blue, Mox Ruby was never played. Mox Diamonds are good, they provide accelration and color fix. With only 2 we rarely see them both in our opening hand (at the same time we want it our opening hand to give us early accelration). One Mox Diamonds were played in the old DotD lists, but it was restricted at the time. I think two, maybe even three would be fine.
6. At the moment StP and Edict is in the SB. I would like to fit them in, but have problems finding room. In my meta were fish is allmost absent the lack of StP in maindeck hasn't been a problem. Except against Tinker targets, I prefer StP over Edict.

Those are my first impressions I had while looking at the list and the explinations of it. I haven't had the time to actually think baout it or sleeve up the deck and try it. That leads me to Bloodghast, this looks interesting, and I wouldn't rule it out. I don't know how much I like it, but it could be good.  I haven't tried Krovikan Horror either, but I wouldn't, because I personally think it's shit, and wouldn't even consider it to begin with. That is, however, my personal opinion, so take it as such. 

Hope this helps!

Bloodghast has been good so far. He's a clock against controll, and negate the effect of smokestack as long as you keep playing lands. Dregde posts good results with the Bloodghast builds, I suspect the same will be true for DotD.

I'm glad you ask 'bout the Horrors. I don't think 4 Squee is sufficent to fuel the Bazaars and Zombie Infestations. The inclusion of Horrors lets you use Bazaar much aggresivly. In the old builds with just Squee, you would either end up with a empty hand, or you couldn't use Bazaar each turn.
This is simple mathematics actually: In order to get card advantage with 1 Bazaar we need 2 cards to discard continusly (Squee). Hence the number of Squees should be approxmently twice the numbers of Bazaars. We do have some other cards we would like to discards as well: Bloodghast, Riftstone Portal and to some extent Cabal Therapy; so the full set of Horrors might not be needed (but I'll never drop it below 2 copies).
Simply put: Horrors make your Bazaars and Zombie Infestation much more powerful. You can also mulligan more aggresivly for Bazaar because the engine gets much faster online with 6 Squees then just 4 Squees.

Other possibilities if you stick to white instead of red for Unearth/Squee/Horror:

Icatian Cryer:  good tech versus tanglewire/smokestack, UPKP get swuee or horror, chuck to Ication get 2 tokens etc to tap or sac.

He'll definatly be a beast against Shops once in play. Might be hard to cast a CC=3 cretaure through spheres? He also provides lots of chump blockers when needed.

But Hammer Mage is beast,  early turn 1 drop, turn 2, for 1 red mana destroy ALL your opponenets moxes.  Or heck you can go Mox land him, turn 2 land, and destory all sphere's, moxes, and sol ring/mana vault.

I think I'll stick to white for StP and for various hatebears in the sideboard. Let me know your testing resultats if you decide to run him in your BGR build.

Also, a question I got into while testing, and I do not know the answer:

If you have 4 Krovikian Horror, and Zombie Infestation can you do an EOT infinite loop with them making infinite tokens?  Maybe thats the whole point of the deck and I missed it, I been playing it as you CAN'T do that, and still been doing really well.

I can't see how you can make an infinite loop with 4 Horrors. Still, with 4 Horrors you can make 2 zombies at your turn, return 3 Horrors to hand EOT; then make 1 zombie in opponents turn. If you have 1 addtional creature (Squee?), you can make 2 zombies each turn.

*****

Some notes/thoughts about my latest build (the list is a few posts up).

I found one fetchable green source to be too few. This was a flaw in my attempt to redo the manabase. I initally included a basic plain to cast StP (killing Magus of the Moon), but I would rather have a basic forest for Life from the Loam.
I would either suggest: +1 Forest +3 Verdant Catacombs -1 Plains -3 Marsh Flats OR +1 Bayou - Marsh Flats if we want to keep a basic Plains in.

Oath of Ghouls is slow. I would like to try something else.

Pridemage is a bit to cast unless we have a Riftstone Portal in the yard. Without Oath he lose some synergi, he still good though. Is 3 the right number, maybe cut 1?

The number of Krovikan Horrors are dependant on the rest of the list (obviously). Higher numbers let you use Bazaar more aggressivly. I might cut down to 2 in the current list. Maybe find some other card that has synergi with Bazaar (Dregde, Flashback or Madness).


There have been a lot of suggestion about Scullclamp and Fastbond. I find Fastbond to be pretty bad on its own. Scullclamp has synergy with Bloodghast and is good to grow our beaters. As a draw engine Scullclamp + Bloodghast suffers the same weakness as Bazaar + Squee: It gets hit by GY hate. That's why I prefer Dark Confidant over Scullclamp + Bloodghast, although the latter has better synergy with the deck. Finding room for all three draw enginees can be done, but is it needed? It's more important to win, then draw lots of cards 

I'll try cut
1 Horror
1 Pridemage
1 Oath

and try some of your suggestions: StP, Edict, Clamps, Fastbond (although I don't like it  ), Life from the Loam, Unearths, Imperial Seal, Darkblast.

Keep in mind that my version have fewer random slots due to the inclusion of Bloodghast. Compared to the old DotD builds my build looks light on creature removal (StP), so the fish matchup is weakened (Still I posted good resultats versus Noble Fish). I think the controll matchup is good with all discard and free uncounterable beats in Bloodghasts. The Shops matchups has improved with Bloodghasts and Pridemages, but can be improved further (I think was the previous builds worst matchup). I have yet to test against dregde but wastes, strips, therapy and pridemage to remove bridges should be good.

[Delha]

Also, a question I got into while testing, and I do not know the answer:

If you have 4 Krovikian Horror, and Zombie Infestation can you do an EOT infinite loop with them making infinite tokens?  Maybe thats the whole point of the deck and I missed it, I been playing it as you CAN'T do that, and still been doing really well.

This does not work.

End step begins, triggers go on the stack. Horrors return to hand. Discarding them again doesn't matter, since they won't trigger again until the next end step.


Edit: Icatian Cryer is indeed a bit steep to cast. On the plus side, he doesn't get hit by Thorn, so you have fewer Sphere effects to worry about. That said, I think you're probably better off with Mogg War Marshall or Tukatongue Thallid, or just more Zombie Infestations.

[serracollector]

Remember that Teeg, Pridemage, and Icatian  can all be returned with Unearth.

Right now in my testing, as i said I play red. 

Now looking at your list and your explanations, this is your "discard" pool, cards that are not "hurt" or may actually be more helpful when discarded:

4 x Squee
4 X bLoodghast
2-4 Horror
2 Riftstone

12-14 cards

Now my red version has:

4 x Squee
4 x Bloodghast
2 x Horror
2-3 Ancient Grudge (my meta is mud heavy, and destroying multiple Moxen/Lotus, or letting them sit and wait for Key/Vault has never been a "bad" thing)
ANY creature (goyf, Kiln, confidant in my deck, teeg, pridemage, goyf and confidant in yours)
BECAUSE I run 2-3 Unearth.

Turn 1 bazaar> Grudge, Goyf, Squee/Blodghst, into either Mox>Unearth, or next turn sac a land>Unearth = a first or 2nd turn 3/4-5/6 Goyf, Teeg, Pridemage, or Confidant, with a bloodghast.
Having a good draw engine, and a Goyf + Ghast on turn 2 is a very definable clock, just as deadly if not more so than a first turn Lodestone.

And I wouldn't give up on teeg at all because of TPS "dieing" due to mud.  Remember he also stops:

Tezz
Smoekstack
Jace
Fact or Fiction
Gifts Ungiven
Force of Will
Misdirection


Also, and this is important, Unearth get's around:
Chalice for 2
Spell Snare (which I would imagine people would easily side in against you)

Not to mention it's cheaper and can be cycled.

Me and your decks are not far off despite being 2 diff colors.  You go with swords/pridemage/teeg for a more control element, I go with Grudge/Edict/Kiln Fiend for a more aggressive approach (double Grudging with a Kiln Fiend in play is fun).  Either way the inclusion of Unearth should be a must, even if only 1 or 2.  Not being afraid to keep that hand with a Bazaar, and multi non-ghast/squee creatures in hand is very nice.  I love not having to wait for my squee's/horror's in order to dig deep.

Also another card I been testing, but not quite "sure" on yet (since blue was dropped) is Buried Alive.  True it sucks at the fact of costing 3, but you have 1 mana adavantage over my deck in the form of Riftstone portal.
And if you do get it casts turn 1-2-3 grabbing those 3 squee, 3 ghast (I usually went 2 squee 1 ghast, gives me a threat on board, and 2 squee's is plenty to get Bazaar rolling), then it absolutely is amazing.

Also, don't know how your testing has went, but I dropped the clamp/fastbond from my deck.  When it hit, yeah it was awesome, nothing like saccing into a bazaar and getting all 4 Ghasts out when your opponent has 8 life, BUT, so many times I drew Fastbond, even turn 1, and it was like cool I got 1 mana and a bazaar.....  but then did nothing unless I got skullclamp.  I thought Life from the Loam would help negate this issue (allwoing for a waste/strip lock) but having Fastbond as a 1 of, 1-2 clamp, 1 Life, and 2 -3 tutors (which consulting for a 1 of is super bad as we know, so really 2 tutors) which we would rather use to find bazaar.

I dropped my Fastbond for a Singleton Crop Rotation, and my 2 Clamps for 2 more ancient grudge (making 3 maindeck for me, as I said never had a situation yet where I drew an "unusable" grudge, imagine if wasteland had flashback.....thats how ancient grudge acts in my meta at its WORST, destroying 1-2 moxen/occasional Loti).

I may try the green splash for pridemage/teeg since it helps stop counterspells, and gives you the extra exalted with Bloodghast/Goyf's, but I really don't want to drop my red splash for bolts/grudges (I could drop the 3 kiln fiends, they are amazing at times, but teeg/pridemage wrong against the control game).  Tough call.

Anyways, keep working on it, I know I am, I hope to have something great soon, even with Leyline so highly used, this deck is good.  Ty nature's claim.

[vassago]

4. Duress vs Thoughtseize is a metacall. In my meta Duress > Thoughtseize, but in my latest list (for an unknown meta) I have 4 Thoughtseizes.

In my opinion, you should play both. I guess I wasn't too clear with my original question, but it was to illustrate this idea. My personal experience with this deck is too dig for disruption every turn with Bazaar. Cant always gets it if there isnt enough of it in the deck.

6. At the moment StP and Edict is in the SB. I would like to fit them in, but have problems finding room. In my meta were fish is allmost absent the lack of StP in maindeck hasn't been a problem. Except against Tinker targets, I prefer StP over Edict.

I think you should find room for them. 1 edict and one StP would replace the oath of ghouls and the consult easily.

[NilsH]

Good post serracollector

You make some very good points for Unearth. I'll definatly try it.

I've came to the same conclusion as you regarding Clamps/Fastbond. They were either dead or win more. I also hated Clamps in multiples.

I think 3(?) Teegs should be somewhere in our 75 cards. Currently he's in my SB, but I see the arguments for including him MD if we can find room. He shuts down a lot of cards versus blue-based controll, and some number of Stax' artifacts depending on the build.
Note: The casting cost of GW may be a bit difficult in the first few turns. All my lands produces  so I can play Thoughtseize, Therapys and Confidants early; so I have to get two duals or Riftstone in the Yard to cast him (and I only have 3 fetches to find my duals).

At first glance Buried Alive seems slow with CC=3. By the time we could play it we could activate a Bazaar three times, we should have found some number of our Ghasts/Squees/Horrors by then.

In my opinion, you should play both. I guess I wasn't too clear with my original question, but it was to illustrate this idea. My personal experience with this deck is too dig for disruption every turn with Bazaar. Cant always gets it if there isnt enough of it in the deck.

I also play Cabal Therapy, so Duress + Thoughtseize has been replaced by Therapy + Thoughtseize. Some doesn't like Therapys, but I have found them to be superior to both Duress and Thoughtseize with the inclusion of Bloodghast. If you don't like Therapys you could replace them with Duress. I think 7 discard effects should be sufficent, at least with the flashback of Therapy 

I think you should find room for them. 1 edict and one StP would replace the oath of ghouls and the consult easily.

I'll make that change and see how it works. 

Consult was included primarly to find Bazaar, but could also find other key pieces like Confidant, Squee etc. In some rare cases I used it to find a singelton bomb, although risky. I did try Crop Rotation at this slot, but didn't like the risk getting it countered. How 'bout Imperial Seal? With Bazaar top-deck tutors is quit good.

[vassago]

Is it just me, or should this deck belong in the bazaar based decks forum?

[NilsH]

Is it just me, or should this deck belong in the bazaar based decks forum?

Actually, the first time I logged on after the change I entered the Bazaar Based Decks to find this thread... I had to use the search function to find it  

I think Dawn of the Dead should be included in the Bazaar Based Decks section. It is an established deck, and other decks that don't see much play currently (like Dragon) is included there.

EDIT: I have contacted the staff suggesting moving threads regarding DotD to the Bazaar section.


Regarding the deck, I don't feel its current manabase is optimal. This is due to all the utility lands included. With just 3 fetches and 1 of each dual the splash colors can sometimes be a problem. I'm considering cutting the Urborg, Tomb ogf Yawgmoth as it doesn't help getting our splash colors. Any thoughts?  

[Delha]

Is it just me, or should this deck belong in the bazaar based decks forum?

I'm guessing it's still here since this is pretty much the more politely named "Improvement Forum".