Powerless Meta - events without proxies - How do the Europeans do it?

[jtwilkins]

It is often pointed out that the Europeans tend to play in a less or no proxy environment. I think it would be great to do this and get at least some proxyless and possible sanctioned events in my area in in the US.

How do they do it? How do they account for people with a good set of cards winning or topping most events? Don't the few blow out and frustrate the powerless players? I know there is hate decks you can run but even hate decks do much much better with some expensive cards.

How did the europeans go from powerless to crazy events like the Bazaar of Moxen while were dyeing over here?

[Ozymandias]

The simple answer is that the combination of proxy events in the USA like the old SCG p9 series and the strengthening Euro caused an influx of Power into Europe, cards which are probably not going back to the US ever. Because the European Vintage community has learnt its lessons from us.

There may also be social factors causing a difference between Europe and the USA, but I am not qualified to discourse on those.

[TheShop]

I don't know how they do it, but here is an insight into how it went here is MS when we had sanctioned Vintage:

week 1:  16 players, 2 powered.  Powered 2 are top 2

week 2: same deal, except 14 players

week 3: same deal, 8 players

weeks 4-12:  6 players, 2 powered, powered win 12 weeks in a row.(both using flash against an unpowered environment)

That was 2 years ago now and here has not ben more than 4 willing to play since.

[M.Solymossy]

I don't know how they do it, but here is an insight into how it went here is MS when we had sanctioned Vintage:

week 1:  16 players, 2 powered.  Powered 2 are top 2

week 2: same deal, except 14 players

week 3: same deal, 8 players

weeks 4-12:  6 players, 2 powered, powered win 12 weeks in a row.(both using flash against an unpowered environment)

That was 2 years ago now and here has not ben more than 4 willing to play since.

Well the real problem with that is the two who showed up with Power were douchebags who weren't willing to play less-powerful/more fair/more casual decks in order to give the others a shot.  The truth to this is if the powered players don't do what they can to encourage the un-powered players to still play, they wont. 

[Lemnear]

It is often pointed out that the Europeans tend to play in a less or no proxy environment. I think it would be great to do this and get at least some proxyless and possible sanctioned events in my area in in the US.

How do they do it? How do they account for people with a good set of cards winning or topping most events? Don't the few blow out and frustrate the powerless players? I know there is hate decks you can run but even hate decks do much much better with some expensive cards.

How did the europeans go from powerless to crazy events like the Bazaar of Moxen while were dyeing over here?

A lot of questions, may I can share some impressions.

I guess a basic point is geographic. A event like BoM draws players from all over europe 'cause driving or taking a plane for 300-400km is ok while going from eastcost to midwest of the states is not. Powerless playes tend to play hate-decks that's pretty obvious but it could also be fun to cripling power decks and win power at the end of the day they WILL use and not instantly sell it on ebay 'cause next tourney will be another proxy one.

I mentioned the importance of playing with your own cards in another thread. I belive the Vintage community won't grow as long  someone could grab a legacy cardpool, proxing all he needs, play and win with a netdecked list, sell all he won and go back to play legacy.

Vintage could only grow with passion for the format. It's not all the players are fullpowered in europe, sure a quarter to a third is but there a many decks with parts of power or none but they don't give a fuck being powned sometimes ... they develop counter strategies and catch up. I think it's also more fun to play in a european tourney than facing timekey all the time. May players  started vintage semi or unpowered. It's pure luxury to start a format with all optimal cards; does anybody remember his first Magic deck and how proud you were of cards you call crap today?

It's too a question of mentality and a statement to vintage itself to host proxyless events and moreover, play a powerless deck in such. Sadly some US players are maybe a bit too spoiled of proxies and dismiss such events if they can't netdeck all the sick tier decks. A very provocative thesis: Proxies kills deckbuilding skills.

@TheShop: why can't the unpowered players respond on 2 flash decks in 12 weeks? That does that tell you? A Friend of mine hosted ~13-man tourneys every few weeks, every time almost the same dudes and every new tourney all deck decks were tweaked due to new techs or decks. What went wrong?

[zeus-online]

Why do americans always assume that europe is small .... ?

I have a hard time believing that transportation is really the problem.

[TheShop]

I don't know how they do it, but here is an insight into how it went here is MS when we had sanctioned Vintage:

week 1:  16 players, 2 powered.  Powered 2 are top 2

week 2: same deal, except 14 players

week 3: same deal, 8 players

weeks 4-12:  6 players, 2 powered, powered win 12 weeks in a row.(both using flash against an unpowered environment)
That was 2 years ago now and here has not ben more than 4 willing to play since.

Well the real problem with that is the two who showed up with Power were douchebags who weren't willing to play less-powerful/more fair/more casual decks in order to give the others a shot.  The truth to this is if the powered players don't do what they can to encourage the un-powered players to still play, they wont. 

I don't think you should play unpowered and lose just because others refuse to invest in answers.  I was one of those 2 powered guys then and I can honestly tell you that without power...I can still beat lorwyn type 2.  No amount of deck loaning or training seemed to help the general disinterest...so I took my prizes and traded them online for cards I really wanted.

Issue:  Should you play without your new set of power because the other players in your area refuse to spend the $2000 you just did???  I don't think so.

Issue:  Let them win and foster format growth by allowing type 2 decks to continually win a vintage tournament?  I dont think so.

I am all about trying to bring others up to tournament level vintage play...not dumbing myself down to encourage further mediocrity.

[Nazdakka]

I am all about trying to bring others up to tournament level vintage play...not dumbing myself down to encourage further mediocrity.

But the people you were stomping probably didn't really want to be tournament-level players. They just wanted to have a fun time with their favourite old decks, and resented you for turning up with tuned Vintage monstrosities and making them look stupid. Sure, you've paid for your power, but if you have nobody to play against you may as well not have it.

Like it or not, if you want to get people interested you've got to give them something to pique their interest. That takes time, and yes, it will probably mean you putting away some of your power cards for a while, so your opponents aren't suffering through watching someone with $2000 worth of deck grind out ridiculous blowout victories every game. If you ever try it again, then I would urge you to suck it up and put the power cards away. By all means play a strong deck, but try to make sure that your opponents don't feel like they are wasting their time.

[Delha]

I don't think you should play unpowered and lose just because others refuse to invest in answers...

Issue:  Should you play without your new set of power because the other players in your area refuse to spend the $2000 you just did???  I don't think so.

Issue:  Let them win and foster format growth by allowing type 2 decks to continually win a vintage tournament?  I dont think so.

I am all about trying to bring others up to tournament level vintage play...not dumbing myself down to encourage further mediocrity

It's sad that your outlook cost you a tournament scene, and that you still don't see the mistake you made. Your sig includes the complaint that nobody in your area has power. If you hadn't dreamcrushed those other players back to back for three months straight, maybe they'd have stayed interested and spent the last two years picking up Shops/Drains/Etc, and worked their way up to running real decks.

From Smmenen's article thread, you stated that there is no Eternal support in your area. From the looks of this post though, things weren't always that way. Nobody likes getting their shit kicked in, and if you were so hellbent on Winning Right Now that you ignored the obvious consequences, you really don't have anyone to blame for the end result but yourself.

I'm not saying you could never play your real deck, but trying something silly every other week to give the scrubs half a chance wouldn't have killed you. At the very least, things probably would have died off a lot more slowly than it actually did.

[TheShop]

There is a lot more to this than the 12 weeks 2 years ago of vintage.  We actually offered to fund the location and prizes ourselves.  Posted articles(poor because we dont write, but sufficient for getting the basics across).  Also, we upped it to unlimited proxy, tested decks with the local groups, and offered to loan out our own cards(at that time we could proxy up about 10 decks between the 2 of us reasonably).  We offered to hand back 100% payout of entry fees with additional prizes to everyone.  I participated on their forums and even played draft and standard with them in an attempt to bring them in.  Not all of these were even the people that got stomped or even knew the people who got stomped.

The active mississippi players are stubbornly opposed and that is not the fault of those of us who are vintage enthusiasts.  Hell...I have even offered to play Elves! while other players used my power...

maybe this is more insightful.  I know i am pretty negative here, but i am actually pretty happy in real life!

I have come to the conclusion that no matter what you play, no matter what everyone else plays, no matter how much you loan and plan and give here...nothing short of a piece of power will bring people in...and then only for the tourney where it is the prize. 

After 2 years of no shows I sold my collection once...then got back in and bought power(not a full set)...then after the above fiascos...sold again...and am rebuildinga  third time.  If i can show up and offer to fund everything (including my own cards) yet not a single other person in our 30+ person play area shows...i have every right to be bitter. 

[Delha]

That changes things significantly, consider my mind changed. If you'd mentioned all that before, I certainly wouldn't have posted what I did. When you bust your ass for something and still have to watch it fail... yeah, I can relate to that, along with any bitterness that comes with the territory.

[TheShop]

No prob (I try not to have to restate that story to avoid the attention it brings...the sig is enough).

The question still stands for me:  How do you create a powerless meta with people who actually show?  How do you retain those players?  How do you help load down players with vintage cards when they dont own any?  How do you gain interest?  How do you get a small spark started to gain the fire?  How do you court the local shops to help you?

If anyone has some real insight into these things, I am always listening.  I think the best weapon I have had so far was the vintage encyclopedia here on TMD.  Being able to give people a reference to every deck ever viable helps soooooo much.  Also all the primers are killer.  I can normally garner some excitement by explaining how the decks win (most unknowledgable players want to see the bustedness..they just want to be on the giving end and not the receiving). 

This is the biggest problem I have found so far:  Getting over the huge hump of stereotypes that people will lose on turn 1.  If i could just get people to understand that sometimes just a single FOW, Wasteland, Duress, Chalice, Sphere, REB, Rod......anything to get in the way of the powerhouse coming to kill you makes the game last for 4-5 turns...then the real progress can begin.  Someone else taught me this, but I was power hungry for a deck that would beat face.  These kids dont have the ambition that their predecessors had.  They feel like vintage is unwinnable and not a reasonable challenge.

[Troy_Costisick]

The Europeans do it by ridding trains.  Americans can't.

[Delha]

My first piece of power was a beat-to-shit Beta Sapphire that cost me $78. I knew I was buying it on the low end (even for the time) and fully intended to just resell for a small margin, and ended up trading it off shortly thereafter.

The important thing though, is that during the week or so that I owned it, there was a huge temptation to start throwing it in all the Extended jank I had built at the time. From there, the desire flowed naturally into picking up all the rest of the pieces. Even having bought it expressly for resale, and owning it for such a short window, that pull was surprisingly strong for me.

All that said, my anecdotal experience points me towards getting power (or other Vintage staples) into the hands of the locals who don't have it. I realize you said that only works for the single event where power is the prize, but I think that once they own some pieces, they're much more likely to show up so they can use said pieces.

Just my thoughts.

[TheShop]

It's funny, even powerful dollar cards like balance or a $7 yawgwill did so for me.  I am handing stuff like that out in about $20 quantities with duals and can't draw locals that own nothing.  The biggest group I can tap into is a group of about 6 casual players here.  Owning a playset of counterspells is a huge deal to them so this stuff is like gold...but they still have to get over that vintage stereotype hump: they don't want to lose early.

[Marske]

As everybody knows I'm Dutch (and by being Dutch I'm also European) and one of the "biggest" TO's in the Benelux (wiki it if you don't know what it is) let me, for the X'd time join in on a thread like this and offer once again my views.

The Europeans do it by ridding trains.  Americans can't.

Utter nonsense, I drove into BoM 2 (7 hours by car) and I used a plane to get to Milan for the Ovino. I payed a total of 500 Euro+ for both trips. I once did the math on what it would cost to fly from Boston to Milwaukee for the ICBM open P9 series and the costs in dollars was ALMOST THE SAME.

It's the willingness to travel... How many of you US players would put 5 dudes in 1 car and ride 7 hours?! Paul M. Rich Shay drive from Pittsburgh to Philly for the Philly Open, how many of the NE guys came? etc etc. There are numerous events where people just don't travel, cause they have similar / smaller Mox event close by. We Europeans have Mox events every Month, sometimes multiple events in 2 weeks and we travel to the bigger events, why ?

Maybe it's a social thing, maybe it's a we travel because of the roadtrip and to be able to say we played in the biggest events and because there is nothing like sitting in a 300 + people Vintage event for me at least.

What it is I do not know for sure or claim to know, all I know is, what I did for the Philly Open V (Fly to NYC, stay with Nick Detwiler, play Vintage and visit New York) for a not even a full set of power to be won at the event, with a basically 0 shot at getting my money back would be unheard off.... hell, you guys barely dare take the plane ride to events like BoM, Ovino (Plane tickets are 400 Euro's btw, which is friggin doable if you have half a job, not even saying all the lawyers and high paying folks around here) I'm pretty sure I can plan a trip + stay + entry + spending money for UNDER 800 euro (which is 972 dollar) People should treat going to such an event as "vacation to Europe and play magic" not as "go to big event and get lots of EV" I know I did this when I visited the Philly V. It was seeing friends, hanging out in NYC AND a nice bonus was I Got to play Vintage in the biggest US event of the year so far.

I guess a basic point is geographic. A event like BoM draws players from all over europe 'cause driving or taking a plane for 300-400km is ok while going from eastcost to midwest of the states is not. Powerless playes tend to play hate-decks that's pretty obvious but it could also be fun to cripling power decks and win power at the end of the day they WILL use and not instantly sell it on ebay 'cause next tourney will be another proxy one.

You have no clue how driving in Europe is am I right?! It takes me near 7-8 hours and at least 2 borders to get to Annecy by car.... not to mention you drive through the mountains, Dutch + Belgium highways. French Tol ways etc etc etc. Ask any Euro that went to Annecy and they'll tell you, it's not an "easy" trip to take. Taking a plane within Europe is wicked expensive (to fly from Holland to Milan costs around 60-70 Euro which is $70-80 dollar) I bet If I look real hard I can find in country flights within the US from say, Boston to Philly for around the same amount ?!

Why do americans always assume that europe is small .... ? Smile

I have a hard time believing that transportation is really the problem.

Because they've never been to Europe obviously

[Lemnear]

It's the willingness to travel... How many of you US players would put 5 dudes in 1 car and ride 7 hours?! Paul M. Rich Shay drive from Pittsburgh to Philly for the Philly Open, how many of the NE guys came? etc etc. There are numerous events where people just don't travel, cause they have similar / smaller Mox event close by. We Europeans have Mox events every Month, sometimes multiple events in 2 weeks and we travel to the bigger events, why ?

Maybe it's a social thing, maybe it's a we travel because of the roadtrip and to be able to say we played in the biggest events and because there is nothing like sitting in a 300 + people Vintage event for me at least.

I guess a basic point is geographic. A event like BoM draws players from all over europe 'cause driving or taking a plane for 300-400km is ok while going from eastcost to midwest of the states is not. Powerless playes tend to play hate-decks that's pretty obvious but it could also be fun to cripling power decks and win power at the end of the day they WILL use and not instantly sell it on ebay 'cause next tourney will be another proxy one.

You have no clue how driving in Europe is am I right?! It takes me near 7-8 hours and at least 2 borders to get to Annecy by car.... not to mention you drive through the mountains, Dutch + Belgium highways. French Tol ways etc etc etc. Ask any Euro that went to Annecy and they'll tell you, it's not an "easy" trip to take. Taking a plane within Europe is wicked expensive (to fly from Holland to Milan costs around 60-70 Euro which is $70-80 dollar) I bet If I look real hard I can find in country flights within the US from say, Boston to Philly for around the same amount ?!

I agree that we're wiling to drive several hours in an overfilled car. Also I like your view of the "vacation in europe + play magic".

You obviously miss a important information im my sig. I'm a german player who commutes between Lille, Paris (both France), Munich and Regensburg (both Germany) so I guess I have a clue how driving, taking a plane/train in europe is (I love french TGV). If you book your trains/flights early it's ok to ride from Munich to Lille for 80€ if you are alone. Car is only interesting if 4 or more player from the same region want to go to a tourney if time is unrelevant. My geographic factor includes that I strongly belive that in europe there are more Eternal player's per km² than in the US (I can only count the french/german/Italian community). I have no idea how it's in Benelux, spain or whatever, that is right.

Riding for more than 3 hour no matter the vehicle is never "easy" but I'll do because I love big events and I think you do too

@TheShop: I hosted some Events too and I sponsored all the prices so entry fee isn't an argument for not so compeditive players to stay away. Everyone could join and have fun but I missed the ability/will of some guys to react to unfavorable matchups. The only thing that these guys did was to complain afterwards that the prices weren't too hot ("Why no Mana Crypts or Duals for all top 3?"). Nothing more to say here. In the end I stoped hosting those local events...

[Marske]

@Lemnear,
I forgot to include how the rest of your post was spot on I did indeed miss the part of you being German (Have we met ?!)

You obviously miss a important information im my sig. I'm a german player who commutes between Lille, Paris (both France), Munich and Regensburg (both Germany) so I guess I have a clue how driving,

Well obviously, this was meant more for our US players who all think Europe has excellent trains and super roads etc (while Europe is extremely cool it's not THAT cool) which was my point entirely.

taking a plane/train in europe is (I love french TGV). If you book your trains/flights early it's ok to ride from Munich to Lille for 80€ if you are alone. Car is only interesting if 4 or more player from the same region want to go to a tourney if time is unrelevant.

Correct.

My geographic factor includes that I strongly belive that in europe there are more Eternal player's per km² than in the US (I can only count the french/german/Italian community). I have no idea how it's in Benelux, spain or whatever, that is right.

Maybe this is the most important factor, we European Eternal players are less spread out then the US groups. With most of the players somewhere in the Holland / Belgium / France / Spain / Italy region. I know countries like Sweden (Hi Zeus ) also struggle to get Vintage going and IIRC only Tobi and the Darmstadt boys are keeping the eternal flame going on in Germany.

I agree that we're wiling to drive several hours in an overfilled car. Also I like your view of the "vacation in europe + play magic".

That's how I've always thought of things when I went to BoM, Ovino and yes even the US, it was a time to spend with Friends, see nice places and take some time off work with the added benefit I got to sling spells. I think most European players look at it this way, which would account for the tremendous atmosphere at all the big events.

[Lemnear]

@Lemnear,
I forgot to include how the rest of your post was spot on I did indeed miss the part of you being German (Have we met ?!)

I'm pretty sure we met somewhere even if  the killing of blue staples and the whole Timekey thing discouraged me a bit to go to ALL the big events. Moreover my Job sucks up lots of time due to travelling etc. I mention in my post.

Well obviously, this was meant more for our US players who all think Europe has excellent trains and super roads etc (while Europe is extremely cool it's not THAT cool) which was my point entirely.

That is right. Some roads in south germany are pretty good (location of AUDI, BMW, etc. ... so I'm not wondering) but that's not common. Trains in Germany are terrible!

Maybe this is the most important factor, we European Eternal players are less spread out then the US groups. With most of the players somewhere in the Holland / Belgium / France / Spain / Italy region. I know countries like Sweden (Hi Zeus ) also struggle to get Vintage going and IIRC only Tobi and the Darmstadt boys are keeping the eternal flame going on in Germany.

There's a big difference between north and south Germany. The South seems pretty deserted in terms of Vintage ... may Tobi or Flo (Bisamratte) could tell more

That's how I've always thought of things when I went to BoM, Ovino and yes even the US, it was a time to spend with Friends, see nice places and take some time off work with the added benefit I got to sling spells. I think most European players look at it this way, which would account for the tremendous atmosphere at all the big events.

That's it ^__^

[Diakonov]

hell, you guys barely dare take the plane ride to events like BoM, Ovino (Plane tickets are 400 Euro's btw, which is friggin doable if you have half a job, not even saying all the lawyers and high paying folks around here) I'm pretty sure I can plan a trip + stay + entry + spending money for UNDER 800 euro (which is 972 dollar) People should treat going to such an event as "vacation to Europe and play magic" not as "go to big event and get lots of EV" I know I did this when I visited the Philly V.

I suppose this logic would qualify me as having less than half a job, being a math teacher and all.  I spent about $400 for an entire Gen Con trip last year (not a bad deal at all really), and this year unfortunately I cannot afford to even do that.

I don't know about everyone else, but this is plain reality to me.

There are numerous events where people just don't travel, cause they have similar / smaller Mox event close by. We Europeans have Mox events every Month, sometimes multiple events in 2 weeks and we travel to the bigger events, why ?

See, I think this is backwards.  Ever since New England has become somewhat barren of local Vintage tournaments, I have actually lost interest in making big trips for the format.  I want to invest time and money in formats that I can play consistently, not ones that I can play once every few months (and then lose due to a lack of playtesting, which is a logistical impossibility for me).

Local tournaments feed bigger events.

Maybe it's a social thing, maybe it's a we travel because of the roadtrip and to be able to say we played in the biggest events and because there is nothing like sitting in a 300 + people Vintage event for me at least.

The only reason that I, and many others that I know, still do it, is strictly because of the social aspect of it.  We get just as much out of visiting cities and staying at hotels and hanging out as we do from Vintage.  If it weren't for this, I wouldn't bother with Vintage any longer.

[Marske]

I suppose this logic would qualify me as having less than half a job, being a math teacher and all.  I spent about $400 for an entire Gen Con trip last year (not a bad deal at all really), and this year unfortunately I cannot afford to even do that.

I don't know about everyone else, but this is plain reality to me.

Well, first I didn't mean to offend anybody clearly. I'm in a different mindset all together as we're not nearly as badly hit by "the crisis" as you US folks, it "should" be potentially easy for somebody with a decent paying job to set aside 50-100 bucks each month and "save" for one big trip across the pond imho that's all I'm saying.

See, I think this is backwards.  Ever since New England has become somewhat barren of local Vintage tournaments, I have actually lost interest in making big trips for the format.  I want to invest time and money in formats that I can play consistently, not ones that I can play once every few months (and then lose due to a lack of playtesting, which is a logistical impossibility for me).

Local tournaments feed bigger events.

Right, I've said this numerous times before in threads like this (I think you can find them easily or recall them as I know you were a part of those back then as well) there are certain things that need to be in order for big events to happen, one of them is indeed smaller "mox" events. One of the arguments presented back then was "why travel 5 hours in a car with 6 others for a set of P9 when I could play for a Mox and not travel for 5 hours close by and still spend time with my friends" which is what I tried to avoid people bringing up this time around by dismissing this from the beginning.

The only reason that I, and many others that I know, still do it, is strictly because of the social aspect of it.  We get just as much out of visiting cities and staying at hotels and hanging out as we do from Vintage.  If it weren't for this, I wouldn't bother with Vintage any longer.

I don't mean Social in that sense, I meant Social as in we're not as spread out as you guys and for many of us (like myself) traveling to France, Spain, Germany and seeing my friends that live there as opposed to the guys that live down the street is a very big plus. How many NE players have "friends" in Ohio ?! or Philly even ? or vice versa... it seems (at least to me as an outsider) that the US Vintage community has been divided more into "local groups" instead of one big community. Which, in a way makes sense if you're 10+ hours apart don't get me wrong.

[Delha]

It's funny, even powerful dollar cards like balance or a $7 yawgwill did so for me.  I am handing stuff like that out in about $20 quantities with duals and can't draw locals that own nothing.  The biggest group I can tap into is a group of about 6 casual players here.  Owning a playset of counterspells is a huge deal to them so this stuff is like gold...but they still have to get over that vintage stereotype hump: they don't want to lose early.

If owning playsets of commons is a big deal, I'm guessing these are not people motivated to play on a competitive level in any format, be it Eternal, Standard, or Limited. It sounds to me like they enjoy the shinies, but really aren't willing to put in the work to actually get decent at the game. It's not like Standard games average turn 20 kills either. Tarpan.dec still goldfishes around turn 6.

[Prospero]

To address the initial point of the thread: I disagree that American Vintage is dying.  I do, however, believe that it is in a great state of flux. 

I think that what American Vintage needs, more than anything else, is T/O's willing to put the time in with a successful model. 

1.  People want to play for power, they don't want to play for cash or store credit.  This means that a prospective T/O needs to have a line on power.  It has to be reliable, and it has to be consistent.  It can't be overpriced, because it's going to eat up the money that you need for the additional prize support for the event.

2.  I think the T/O needs to offer at least 70% of the entry fees back as prize support.  This means that he has 30% to pay for the store, staff, and whatever incidentals, like having printed deck registration sheets, and having enough pens for people.  This is a little thing that really does bother me by the way - if you're a T/O, and you want people to register their decks, they're going to need pens to register their decks.  People forget things like that.  Being charged .50 or 1.00 for a pen is annoying and cheap.  I spent $7 on a box of pens for N.Y.S.E. VIII.  It will last me through the summer.  And when I run out, I'll buy another box. 

3.  Having a quality judge is tremendously important.  There is nothing worse than getting a bad judge call that affects the outcome of a match.  You may lose that player permanently.  I have a level 2 judge that I pay for my events, and he's worth every penny. 

4.  The venue needs to be big enough, and it needs air conditioning.  Let's face it, the majority of us could stand to lose some weight.  Air conditioning is something that you don't really think about or notice when it's working.  But you sure as hell notice when it's not working.  It can make a good day miserable.

5.  I talk to my players, and I look for feedback.  I think American Vintage needs T/O's willing to take their lumps when they're deserved.  I've had problems, and I've owned up to them.  Talking it through with your players, and working to ensure that they're not going to be consistent issues, helps the players feel like they're involved in this (even when they're not winning) and helps you solve issues that may kill your attendance.

That's all I've got off the top of my head for the whole T/O thing.  There's more that I think is important though:

Vintage was, first and foremost, presented as a community to me.  I stopped playing other formats when I felt like people were just out to win, no matter the cost in terms of their integrity or honor.  I hated that.   If the win mattered that much to them, I didn't want a part of it. 

Being part of a community like Vintage is special, and I think it makes demands of us.  Do you know what your buddies are playing?  Do you know what they need for their decks?  Are you on the lookout for them, trying to help them put together whatever it is they're looking to build? 

Beyond that though, I think that American Vintage players don't sell the format well enough.  We need new blood, that much is evident.  I think that if you get enough of your Vintage playing friends to work to include other players from other formats, you'll be successful.  Growing the NY Vintage scene has been a slow, slow fight.  But I think I'm finally getting to a good place.  I had 47 guys on Saturday, and I really didn't have that much support from out of state.  I had 33 players from the Long Island/NYC area.  When I started running events, I had 31 at my first tournament, and I needed about 16 guys from out of state to hit that point.  The local Vintage community has doubled in size since last July.  It means lending decks, explaining theory, and spending many hours working to get other people in.  It is a ton of work.  It's worth it too.

I don't see the NY Vintage becoming anything but more and more popular.  If I have between 30-40 regulars now, what happens in six months?  What happens when you hit 50 locals who come to play in your tournaments, and then you get another 20+ from out of state?  People have lives, and it demands an inordinate amount of time, but if you have the time to give, it can potentially provide a real shot of strength to the community.   

[Lemnear]

TO support is nice but most shops want to gain money if they run events. Most of them never prize out more than 50% of the fees. TheShop's and my experience show that the Fee/payout-relation is not the basic topic here.

But playing for moxen instead of money or credit is useless if those moxen are instantly sold at Ebay. As long as won Power won't become part of your deck it's a MONEY PROXY. Unless you have tourneys with 30 or more players, you can't make a intelligent payout, including a mox, unless you think it's ok to give the 1st 70% of the pricepool.

Venue, air conditioning ... I can't see how that should really attract poeple to play unpowered. prizeouts for the best unpowered decks is common in europe (~15% of the prizepool) ... that is a point to start.

[jtwilkins]

I don't think T/O care as much to make money as they will be protected from losing money.  Nothing ends a stores vintage events quicker then a few low turnouts that net negative profit.

You can say in the long game it will be better for the shop because people are buying singles, but at least in the midwest we do travel for events so the people that come to your vintage tournament may not be regularly purchasing singles at the store and they may be winning and taking your power to another area of the midwest.

[zeus-online]

Maybe this is the most important factor, we European Eternal players are less spread out then the US groups. With most of the players somewhere in the Holland / Belgium / France / Spain / Italy region. I know countries like Sweden (Hi Zeus ) also struggle to get Vintage going and IIRC only Tobi and the Darmstadt boys are keeping the eternal flame going on in Germany.

I'm actually from denmark Vintage died in denmark when legacy got created, it's really that simply. Legacy is still hugely popular though.
I'm not sure if i expect that to continue since i think legacy stables are actually FAR more expensive in denmark then in the US...While power cards are extremely cheap right now compared to when vintage was popular. Jace, Tarmogoyf and revised underground seas has all exceeded Mana drain in price now.

I'll chime in on the transportation in europe...Going through multiple countries where people speak different languages and mostly use bad english to communicate is not really that great. I honestly wish there was a european counterpart to TMD but unfortunetly the language barriers pretty much makes that nigh-impossible.

[Killane]

With some effort and software similar, but superior to babelfish, could one not make a forum with a "universal translator" feature - you slected a language on log-in and the forum software translates all posted to that language for you, and then understands what language you are typing in so as to traslate for everyone else?

[Prospero]

TO support is nice but most shops want to gain money if they run events. Most of them never prize out more than 50% of the fees. TheShop's and my experience show that the Fee/payout-relation is not the basic topic here.

But playing for moxen instead of money or credit is useless if those moxen are instantly sold at Ebay. As long as won Power won't become part of your deck it's a MONEY PROXY. Unless you have tourneys with 30 or more players, you can't make a intelligent payout, including a mox, unless you think it's ok to give the 1st 70% of the pricepool.

Venue, air conditioning ... I can't see how that should really attract poeple to play unpowered. prizeouts for the best unpowered decks is common in europe (~15% of the prizepool) ... that is a point to start.

The first store that I approached about running smaller events wanted 50% return on entry fees.  I kept looking.  I know that a lot of stores want too much.  But you have to keep looking.  I found stores that wanted to run events, wanted to have new players, weren't running all that much to begin with.  It's not that it's easy, there are a lot of restrictions that are placed already - due to size, AC, etc.  But there are good locations out there if you look for them. 

I don't think T/O care as much to make money as they will be protected from losing money.  Nothing ends a stores vintage events quicker then a few low turnouts that net negative profit.

You can say in the long game it will be better for the shop because people are buying singles, but at least in the midwest we do travel for events so the people that come to your vintage tournament may not be regularly purchasing singles at the store and they may be winning and taking your power to another area of the midwest.

Losses happen for a reason.  It could be bad scheduling, bad prize payout, or something else.  But I really do think that you can be very successful in this if you continue to support the format and your community.  I've had tournanments with less than stellar attendance, we all have.  But I had problems with those events that I should have given more weight.  I am not saying that I think you can predict the attendance of every event - sometimes the things that you don't weight properly are the ones that mattered most, but I do think that you can create a successful model, and keep it running. 

[Diakonov]

Well, first I didn't mean to offend anybody clearly. I'm in a different mindset all together as we're not nearly as badly hit by "the crisis" as you US folks, it "should" be potentially easy for somebody with a decent paying job to set aside 50-100 bucks each month and "save" for one big trip across the pond imho that's all I'm saying.

No offense taken, honestly.  I meant it more jokingly.  But I do think that it is probably tough for a lot of people to be able to afford stuff like that.  I think that when you combine that with a diminished local scene (at least in my area), it becomes very tough to justify spending money like that on Vintage.

I don't mean Social in that sense, I meant Social as in we're not as spread out as you guys and for many of us (like myself) traveling to France, Spain, Germany and seeing my friends that live there as opposed to the guys that live down the street is a very big plus. How many NE players have "friends" in Ohio ?! or Philly even ? or vice versa... it seems (at least to me as an outsider) that the US Vintage community has been divided more into "local groups" instead of one big community. Which, in a way makes sense if you're 10+ hours apart don't get me wrong.

You know, I do have one theory on this actually: when I remember Vintage at its height around here (i.e. TMD Open @ Waterbury), a lot of people whom I knew and competed with were either in college or had just recently graduated college.  At that time, a community had formed.  However, since this was more than four years ago, a lot of people from the scene have since moved out or moved on.  Some of my friends moved to Boston, one to NY, one to Tennessee, etc., while others simply became preoccupied with other things.  As for those who had relocated, they weren't necessarily out of reach of being able to attend New England tournaments, but much more importantly, it had broken up playtesting groups.  I can only speak for myself, but without regular playtesting it is hard to stay motivated to regularly compete in a format.  I saw the same type of thing happen to a group of friends in West Springfield (Travis probably has a better insight to this).

I think it had a slippery-slope effect, and other people who were initially attracted to the popularity of Vintage started jumping to other formats.

[TheBrassMan]

It's the willingness to travel... How many of you US players would put 5 dudes in 1 car and ride 7 hours?!

I think the whole europe v united states debate that Marske keeps spearheading is completely ridiculous, but I couldn't help responding to this one.  7 hours is a *short* trip for a major American touranment.  Back when we had power 9s, which where both the largest american vintage events ever, and about 1/5th of the prize support that BoM has, 7 hours was about the shortest trip you could make.  From Rhode Island its 11 hours to Roanoke or Richmond, 15 to Indianapolis for Gen Con, 17 to Chicago, and 18 to Charlotte, all events that I drove to.  There are a lot of factors that determine whether or not someone goes to an event, and the drive is just one of them.

for instance:

See, I think this is backwards.  Ever since New England has become somewhat barren of local Vintage tournaments, I have actually lost interest in making big trips for the format.  I want to invest time and money in formats that I can play consistently, not ones that I can play once every few months (and then lose due to a lack of playtesting, which is a logistical impossibility for me).

That.  Many times over.  I personally can't fully enjoy a format that I can't wrap my head around, that I'm not able to test and understand.  I just don't enjoy playing the game when I'm not playing at my best, and without the right tournament infrastructure/group of players, that's just not possible.  I enjoy playing Starcraft, but I wouldn't travel 10 hours to go to a Starcraft tournament unless I had been seriously practicing.  I'd just have a better weekend relaxing at home, chatting on #thepsionicstorm