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Author Topic: Legacy and Vintage: Are there Pillars and Are they Managed the Same?  (Read 1363 times)
Troy_Costisick
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« on: June 25, 2010, 10:17:36 am »

Over in another thread, DubDub had an excellent comment that I thought would begin a really insightful conversation.  Here's what he wrote:

Well, are we talking about Vintage here?  Or Legacy?

I think your conversation is really interesting and insightful, but let's not talk about Legacy in this thread.  I think a new one on the topic in the Other Formats forum would be really good.  Again, I think what you're saying about Legacy is good stuff, but just not part of this thread.
Sorry, I don't mean to clutter the thread, it is just easier to argue about an action like Mystical's banning, and LaPille's/Forsythe's recent comments than it is to argue about the inaction and relative silence Vintage has seen, since inaction is 'more' open to interpretation.  I think a lot of the arguments translatetoo, for instance, does the DCI try to manage Legacy and Vintage in the same way, or not?  They haven't listed the 'Pillars of Legacy' as they have listed the 'Pillars of Vintage', yet they refer to 'Mystical Tutor' decks.  Was Mystical Tutor a Pillar with a capital 'P' in Legacy, if so, why is it now gone?


What do you guys think?  I can see exactly where he's coming from

Peace,

-Troy

Note to Mods:  This may involve the Legacy Banned List.  Since this is much more of a Legacy issue than a Vintage issue, I chose to post it here.  If I am in error, I appologize.
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DubDub
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« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2010, 01:27:07 pm »

So I'll start?

Well, I think it's obvious that it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to produce any consise list of Pillars for Legacy.  They have actually done (I'm not counting the Mystical Tutor banning that has yet to go into effect, as I think that's a mistake) a very good job of creating a healthy and balanced meta, with a very wide variety of decks.

Part of the problem is the definition of "Pillar", in fact, in Crafting a Vintage LaPille actually didn't use the term in this crucial paragraph (or in the entire article):
Quote
In the modern era, we have a more nuanced understanding of the Vintage metagame. The four tournament Vintage archetypes that we have identified revolve around four cards: Dark Ritual, Force of Will, Bazaar of Baghdad, and Mishra's Workshop. In the current Vintage metagame, Mana Drain is by far the most powerful unrestricted blue card other than Force of Will, so almost all of the Force of Will decks are also Mana Drain decks. In order to keep a diverse metagame, all four of these archetypes need to have a real shot at winning a match and the archetypes need to stay distinct.

The most immediate definition of 'Pillar' we can get from the above is "a card around which archetypes revolve".

In Vintage some decks make use of more than one Pillar, the examples that come to mind first are TPS, which uses both Force of Will and Dark Ritual, and Welder-Shop-Bazaar decks intending to use the graveyard as an extension of the hand.  (Please note that I have made arguments against Force of Will being considered a pillar, a minor consideration of which is that Mana Drain + Dark Ritual decks are far more rare than Force of Will + Dark Ritual decks (almost by definition, since Mana Drain's presence indicates with very high likelihood Force of Will's presence.)  That would I think be an inevitable outcome of establishing Legacy Pillars.

In any case, in Vintage the Pillars each support multiple archetypes:
Dark Ritual supports TPS, ANT, and mono-black decks like Dark Times, among others.
Force of Will supports a wide variety of decks (which is partly why I personally don't think it's useful to name Force the Pillar), including Oath, Fish lists with blue, Mana Drain decks, etc.
Mishra's Workshop supports MUD and 5C Stax.
Bazaar of Baghdad support Dredge, Madness, and some Stax decks also abusing Goblin Welder.
These short lists are not meant in any sense to be comprehensive.  TMD has whole forums to the discussion of decks based on these pillars (but don't go in the Null Rod forum, because Null Rod isn't a DCI recognized pillar!).

Legacy has many linear archetypes, best exemplified perhaps by Tribal decks, which I think pose a particular problem to establishing Pillars:
Goblin Lackey is an extremely powerful card... in the context of other Goblin cards worth cheating into play, and the ability to connect with him.
Lord of Atlantis is a strong creature considering that there are other Merfolk creatures worth playing, and that Islandwalk and additional power/toughness are good things for them to have, etc.
Neither of these cards enable multiple decks though, just their own dedicated decks.  Unless we expand the definition of Pillar to include tribal synergies, the closest I think we can come with such decks to one particular card is: Aether Vial, though not all Goblin or Merfolk lists play Aether Vial.

Legacy also has a variety of control strategies, the most prevalent of which are Counterbalance-based.  Counterbalance supports a variety of decks, including Natural Order Bant, and Thopter Foundry-Sword of the Meek combo decks and others.

I don't have the detailed knowledge of the Legacy metagame, or the chops to definitively recognize Legacy Pillars.  I would guess broadly that Tarmogoyf, Life from the Loam, Tendrils of Agony (or potentially LED, which would allow us to lump in LED-based Dredge), and Entomb qualify.  Noble Hierarch and Survival of the Fittest are contenders for Pillar Status as well.  I also haven't mentioned one-off decks like Enchantress and Non-LED Dredge since there aren't recognizable (to me) cards those decks 'revolve around'.

Part of the problem is that the best cards in Legacy aren't as different from one another so as to distinguish archetypes, while retaining variation within each archetype.  This is a problem best exemplified by Tarmogoyf, which 'goes in everything'.  Tarmogoyf is worth protecting, so it goes in Counterbalance decks.  Tarmogoyf is better (in some people's opinions) than additional Merfolk synergies, so it goes in Merfolk.  Tarmogoyf is likely to be in play for your opponent, so playing one alongside Noble Hierarch allows yours to win in battle.  In Vintage, Force of Will (and to a greater extent, Mana Drain) is extremely strong, but also has strong disynergies with Mishra's Workshop (which powers out cards that make it hard to play Force for its alternate cost, or pay  {U} {U} for Drain), and Bazaar of Baghdad (at least in a Dredge context, and speaking historically, as Force has crept into Dredge).  Vintage obviously has a host of cards that 'go in everything'; the fast mana that are at times preferable to lands: Moxen, Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, and Black Lotus.  Decks intending to pay mana for non-artifact spells generally find room for other extremely powerful cards, such as: Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Demonic Tutor, and Yawgmoth's Will.

[Some argument about how Legacy lacks a core of super powered cards relative to the rest of the format, and lacks a second tier of disynergistic cards capable of supporting distinct archetypes.  To a much greater extent in Legacy as compared to Vintage whole archetypes are just singular decks with next to zero internal variation.]

This is clearly rambling, and I've spent all day so far writing it off and on, so I'll just put this much out there now, and get back to it again later.  If anyone wants to take what I've written so far and run with it, have at it.
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.

Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops.  I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
Delha
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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2010, 02:13:46 pm »

[Some argument about how Legacy lacks a core of super powered cards relative to the rest of the format, and lacks a second tier of disynergistic cards capable of supporting distinct archetypes.  To a much greater extent in Legacy as compared to Vintage whole archetypes are just singular decks with next to zero internal variation.]
This sounds to me like the best argument for why the Pillar framework can't be applied cleanly to the format.
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I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
DubDub
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« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2010, 09:30:24 pm »

[Some argument about how Legacy lacks a core of super powered cards relative to the rest of the format, and lacks a second tier of disynergistic cards capable of supporting distinct archetypes.  To a much greater extent in Legacy as compared to Vintage whole archetypes are just singular decks with next to zero internal variation.]
This sounds to me like the best argument for why the Pillar framework can't be applied cleanly to the format.
So I just did a non-statistical analysis of some representative Vintage lists (to do so statistically would require the lists actually played in the proportions they're actually played).  The lists were: TPS, Tezzeret, Elephant Oath, Bant (Noble) Fish, Selkie Strike, 5C Stax (Sperling's, for the record), MUD, and Dredge.

-All eight decks played Black Lotus, even the Dredge list I looked at (I realize not all Dredge lists play Lotus).  Lotus is obviously the most 'core' card in Vintage, due to its interaction with all other regular (meaning, non-Dredge) spells.
-Mox Pearl, Sapphire and Emerald appear in 7 of the lists (all except Dredge).  Obviously these are the Bant colors.
-Mana Crypt, Sol Ring and Mox Ruby appear in 5 of the lists, and Mox Jet in 4 (Jet doesn't appear in the particular 5C Stax list I looked at).

I would argue that the above constitute the 'core' of Vintage.  What truly defines the format is the nearly costless artifact acceleration that most decks run.  This is not a new conclusion.  Note that the drop from seven to five was the loss of the two fish decks, which played Null Rod.  Null Rod was also in the 5C Stax list, perhaps partially explaining why Jet did not make the cut there.

The 'core' of Big Blue then was (in this sample at least): Tolarian Academy, Ancestral Recall, Mystical Tutor, and all four copies of Force of Will all with 5 appearances, and the first Island, Time Walk, the first two Misty Rainforest and the first three Spell Pierce all with 4 appearances.
Strip Mine and the first three Wastelands were the only other cards with 4 or more appearances (Strip Mine had 5).

As I have previously contested Force of Will's pillar status, I would argue that it is more analogous to Strip Mine and Wasteland, which also appear in a variety of decks, while not defining them.  Strip Mine and Wasteland act very differently in Prison-Decks where they're meant to be recurred indefinitely with Crucible of Worlds, and in the Fish decks I looked at, where they offer tempo in conjunction with Stifle, Daze, Noble Hierarch and Null Rod.  Force of Will also behaves differently when paired with Duress, or Spell Pierce, or Mana Drain (or... for that matter, with Flash or Gush).

Legacy, decks to beat
An even more rough look at the six decks in the 'decks to beat' section of MTGTheSource reveals the following cards played as 4-of's in more than one of the decks:
Blue Fetches
Blue Duals
Brainstorm
Ponder
Force of Will
Mystical Tutor
Daze
Removal
Tarmogoyf
Wasteland

With an honorary mention to:
Knight of the Reliquary (possibly alongside Horizon Canopy, and Windswept Heath, though Canopy is far from standard in Zoo lists)
Thoughtseize (not played as a 4-of, due likely to diminishing returns caused by life loss (it appears with Ad Nauseam and Reanimate...))

Variations within the 'decks to beat' may cause other cards to jump up into this list, but I'm pretty satisfied with this list as representative of the top decks (at least as they stand before Mystical Tutor's ban goes into effect).

However, Legacy is more than just the few 'decks to beat', there are pages on TheSource listing 'established decks' as well.  Perhaps when I have some more time to kill I'll try to offer additional support of my claim that Legacy doesn't really follow the pillar structure, because it lacks a 'second tier' of powerful spells that differentiate archetypes outside of the core.  Much more time to kill.
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.

Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops.  I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
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