Back after a year, mono Black

[Djinn]

Sooo after another year of school I'm ready to dabble in type 1 again.  I was playing a mono black deck with mild success, don't have expectations of winning anything big, just to have fun playing type 1.  I can't afford all the huge staples which is why I am playing an aggro deck.

My deck looks like this right now:

Lands: 20
15 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Creatures: 7
3 Phyrexian Negator
4 Dark Confidant

Sorceries: 15
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize (proxy)
2 Night's Whisper
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

Enchantments: 1
Necropotence

Instants: 9
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Extirpate
4 Dark Ritual

Artifacts: 9
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus (proxy)
1 Mox Jet (proxy)
1 Lotus Petal

61 Cards

Sideboard:
Anything from Spinning Darkness, Gate to Phyrexia, Leyline, Engineered Plague, Smother, Dystopia..., whatever meta dictates.

The question being now, would this deck still be competitive, and if not (or even if it is competitive), what would some changes to make to this deck be?  It needs more creatures because 7 is too low and that plus tendrils are the only win conditions, I know that at least, I just never really found very suitable ones. Thanks for reading.

[Killane]

Here : http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40314.0 is a good, viable way to run mono black. It's not a great deck, but it's good and has game against most of the decks in the format.

[Djinn]

Thanks for the link, good read and interesting decks.  My question now is does anyone think splashing another color with black and having the deck continue to be null rod/chalice based be a competitive deck?  I can come up with some more specific ideas and postback later but it is getting late.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Your options for winning go something like Tarmogoyf, Dark Depths, Tinkerbot, and Helmline.  Frankly, there are better shells for mostly/mono-black for everything but Hexmage Depths.

[Killane]

Your options for winning go something like Tarmogoyf, Dark Depths, Tinkerbot, and Helmline.  Frankly, there are better shells for mostly/mono-black for everything but Hexmage Depths.

I read your answer 5 times and still don;t understand what you are trying to say. do you mean there are better shells Than mostly/mono black for all these wincons except hexmage depths? If so, what's your point? The dec above doesn;t use 2/4 of your listed wincons.

[AmbivalentDuck]

do you mean there are better shells Than mostly/mono black for all these wincons except hexmage depths?

Yes, for -> than.  

If so, what's your point? The dec above doesn;t use 2/4 of your listed wincons.

If he splashes, since he was asking about it, he opens up a whole world of better wincons.  That said...once he splashes, even gradual card-by-card changes will probably get him to something like BUG fish.  Ie. Negator makes no sense when Tinker and Tarmogoyf are options.  Even Hexmage Depths is questionable outside of a solidly tested build like Dark Times.

[Killane]

do you mean there are better shells Than mostly/mono black for all these wincons except hexmage depths?

Yes, for -> than. 

If so, what's your point? The dec above doesn;t use 2/4 of your listed wincons.

If he splashes, since he was asking about it, he opens up a whole world of better wincons.  That said...once he splashes, even gradual card-by-card changes will probably get him to something like BUG fish.  Ie. Negator makes no sense when Tinker and Tarmogoyf are options.  Even Hexmage Depths is questionable outside of a solidly tested build like Dark Times.

ok, gotcha. Yes i imagine you're right. Negator really seems quite bad in the current meta given how many creatures are running around. the new lich guy from M11 though is quite interesting.

[nineisnoone]

Suicide Long has always been a fairly decent deck, Long with Confidants running multiple Tendrils.

The card that always rattles in my mind when I think Mono-Black is Smallpox.    each player sacrifices a land, creature, and discards a card.  But I can't seem to think of an approach that would reasonably break parity on the effect.

[Djinn]

If negator isn't good anymore, I can always put a *little* bit of money into a different color.  Maybe R/G beats?  I have a very diverse set of cards, but my best ones are probably black and blue, which aside from Tezzeret, don't seem to fit together.  Been at work all day, will post back later tonight with a few ideas for you guys to flame

[AmbivalentDuck]

Perhaps you could simply netdeck until you get a feel for the format THEN innovate?

I strongly suggest Dredge since you can keep that fairly cheap with 10 proxies.

[TopSecret]

Tombstalker would probably be better than Negator if you wanted to find some.

If you splash green, you get Putrid Leech and Nature's Claim, both of which are pretty decent.

If you want to go blue, you could put in some kind of Trinket Mage package and/or add some Vendillion Clique.

That's just off the top of my head for splashing a color on a budget without spending very much time or money. If you want to get more specific with your limitations and/or intended metagame, that would help suggestions be a little more specific and/or useful.

As far as I can tell, your deck looks about as good as this style of Mono-Black gets without adding Hexmage/Depths for random wins.

[Djinn]

TopSecret, I was actually thinking of splashing green myself.  I like that Putrid Leech card.  What about Goyf?  Throw in a regrowth?  New idea...

Lands: 22
6 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Fetchland
4 B/G dual land (poxy)(name is elluding me at the moment)
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Creatures: 12
4 Tarmogoyf (proxy)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Putrid Leech

Sorceries
1 Regrowth
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

Instants
4 Dark Ritual
1 Vampiric Tutor

Enchantments:
1 Fastbond

Artifacts: 10
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus (proxy)
1 Mox Jet (proxy)
1 Mox Emerald (proxy)
1 Lotus Petal
---------
62 Cards


So basically what I lost was

3 Phyrexian Negator
2 Thoughtseize
2 Night's Whisper
1 Necropotence
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Extirpate
Sideboard still to be determined, also from my count there were 11 proxies.  Do you think I should run the 2 moxes and lotus if I'm running that many chalices and null rods?  thanks for reading guys.

[TopSecret]

It really depends on what decks and cards you expect to face, but I think keeping a Diabolic Edict in to tutor for isn't a bad idea if you expect an opponent to cast an early Tinker or something. Although, I've seen instances of aggro decks without any reactive answers to Tinker still do fine.

Yeah, I didn't mention Goyf because I assumed since you mentioned being on a budget. He's the best dude available for this kind of deck.

Lotus and Moxes seem fine since you have some good early plays you can make, like Null Rod + Bob or something. I think that outweighs the disadvantage of them being dead later. Worst case they're kind of like Dark Rituals. I've played creature decks where they weren't worth it before, but those were special circumstances, like needing lands for Gaea's Might.

I'm not really sure if you need Fastbond and Regrowth. Both of those rely on a couple things going right to be relevant, like drawing lots of land or having something worth Regrowthing in the graveyard. Looking at your list, I think they'd be better as something else.

For a deck like this without a lot of inherently broken insanity you probably want to build it with some kind of metagame in mind if possible. Or if it's a vacuum you're working with, then you'd want to build the maindeck as flexible as possible with the sideboard to help even out certain matches for games 2 and 3.

[Djinn]

Thanks for the input TopSecret.  I wouldn'tbuy the goyfs, usually 10 proxys are allowed at every tournament as you know.  I would like to playtest this although that would be tough, probably will build it and walk into a tournament cold turkey.  Also, is TPS still a viable deck?  Minus P9 I have nearly all those cards...

[TopSecret]

I think I remember talk of TPS pretty recently, but I think it died down a bit once MUD decks with Lodestone Golem started seeing play. I haven't noticed TPS consistently top 8'ing. There are some threads about TPS in the deck discussion area of TMD if you're interested.

Back when I built decks without playtest partners, I'd typically use theory to build the deck and then see how it goldfished to double check my theory. I usually had expectations of what kind of plays an opponent could make in the first couple turns with a strong, but not nutty draw from some of the typical decks. If my deck could consistently make plays that went toe to toe with those hypotheticals or exceed them, then I assumed I was on the right track. The rest of the goldfishing was spent looking at random scenarios that came up where I wasn't sure what to do. Then I'd figure out what the best play was and make a mental note for later.

The main problem for me with not having a playtest partner, besides lack of feedback, was not getting a feel for a live opponent and developing habits about that. But physically shuffling up the deck and playing it was at least useful because the deck didn't feel like a foreign entity when I brought it out to a tournament.

If the place you're going to play at posts tournament reports and decklists (on TMD or otherwise), that would be the best place to look to base your expectations of the field off.

[Djinn]

TopSecret, I have to hand it to you my friend, you've been extremely helpful.  Ultimately, I think if I was considering B/G aggro, I may as well turn it into BUG fish (seeing as I have all the blue cards for it).  My proxies would include part of the power cards and 4 Tarmogoyfs.  I have a decent number of fetchlands and a couple duals, and I most likely will end up purchasing a few more duals  :-/. Seems like a worthy investment though.  All that being said, why don't I see chalices anymore?  Coming back from a year I don't see why eliminating 6+ mana sources for an opponent wouldn't be worth it.

For the record, I play in MA and I have seen tournament updates from areas around me so I have a little more research to do on the meta.

[ArtOvWar]

What im missing in the list that are posted.
3-4 Bitterblossom --> Chumpblockers. Control needs to get rid of it or they will die. Vs staxx you can make them ramp their smokestack.

Also why would you run Chalice as 3 off. Same for Null Rod. They should be run as a 4-off. You want to see it early game. Not midgame. Also you cant wait for tutors to get em or Confidant flips.

[Djinn]

What im missing in the list that are posted.
3-4 Bitterblossom --> Chumpblockers. Control needs to get rid of it or they will die. Vs staxx you can make them ramp their smokestack.

Also why would you run Chalice as 3 off. Same for Null Rod. They should be run as a 4-off. You want to see it early game. Not midgame. Also you cant wait for tutors to get em or Confidant flips.

Ah the issue between 3 or 4.  Its more of an irony situation.  When I play 4 of them, I seem to topdeck the chalices or rods all the time, I thought by reducing them to 3, I would still draw them witha lot of frequency, but not have multiple just sitting in my hand (when any other card in the deck would be more useful).  I'm sure you understand the issue at hand.  Also, no one seems to be running chalice anymore, do you know why?

[ArtOvWar]

What im missing in the list that are posted.
3-4 Bitterblossom --> Chumpblockers. Control needs to get rid of it or they will die. Vs staxx you can make them ramp their smokestack.

Also why would you run Chalice as 3 off. Same for Null Rod. They should be run as a 4-off. You want to see it early game. Not midgame. Also you cant wait for tutors to get em or Confidant flips.

Ah the issue between 3 or 4.  Its more of an irony situation.  When I play 4 of them, I seem to topdeck the chalices or rods all the time, I thought by reducing them to 3, I would still draw them witha lot of frequency, but not have multiple just sitting in my hand (when any other card in the deck would be more useful).  I'm sure you understand the issue at hand.  Also, no one seems to be running chalice anymore, do you know why?

Because CotV aint good anymore @ zero nowadays. Storm will combo out with chalice on the table. Sure ill go mox mox mox will
Mox mox mox etc and kill you. I always run 4 null rods. If you drop 2 null rods they need to have a h. recall, 2 chains or nething like that to get rid of them.

[Djinn]

While I see the unfavorable use of chalice against TPS or Drain Tendrils, wouldn't it still be good against other decks like Tezz?  Are they sideboard material at least?

[ArtOvWar]

While I see the unfavorable use of chalice against TPS or Drain Tendrils, wouldn't it still be good against other decks like Tezz?  Are they sideboard material at least?

CotV @ how many? You cant drop it @ 1 cause you will lose your rits, pates etc
@ 2 you lose confidant and hymn. CotV is only good in decks that can drop it without locking them selves without it imo

[Djinn]

While I see the unfavorable use of chalice against TPS or Drain Tendrils, wouldn't it still be good against other decks like Tezz?  Are they sideboard material at least?

CotV @ how many? You cant drop it @ 1 cause you will lose your rits, pates etc
@ 2 you lose confidant and hymn. CotV is only good in decks that can drop it without locking them selves without it imo

I agree, I am saying while you proved to me how Chalice is not good against a storm based deck, isn't it still effective at 0 against Tezz, The Deck, stax, *insert other common vintage archetype that utilizes multiple moxes or lotus*?

[ArtOvWar]

While I see the unfavorable use of chalice against TPS or Drain Tendrils, wouldn't it still be good against other decks like Tezz?  Are they sideboard material at least?

CotV @ how many? You cant drop it @ 1 cause you will lose your rits, pates etc
@ 2 you lose confidant and hymn. CotV is only good in decks that can drop it without locking them selves without it imo

I agree, I am saying while you proved to me how Chalice is not good against a storm based deck, isn't it still effective at 0 against Tezz, The Deck, stax, *insert other common vintage archetype that utilizes multiple moxes or lotus*?

All the deck you just named dont care about CotV. Staxx got Workshops. The deck doesnt need moxes to kill you. Same for Tezz.

[Djinn]

Yea yea, I guess you're right.  Anyways, I've searched a bit and come up with a U/B fish deck I think could be good.  It has blue/black control elements, and uses the synergy between spellstutter sprite and bitterblossom to deal a lot of damage and essentially counter anything in your opponents deck for  .  Bob is the draw engine.

Deck would look like:
Artifact: 7
2 Lotus
2 Mox
3 Null Rod

Creatures: 10
4 Dark Confidant
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique

Instants: 17
1 Ancestral
4 FoW
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
1 Vamp Tutor
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Brainstorm
2 Stifle

Sorcery: 6
1 Time walk
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress

Enchantments: 3
3 Bitterblossom

Lands: 19
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Island
1 Swamp
3 flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea

Total: 62

Basically, I'm going to make a UB fish hybrid type deck for now that I think will be competitive and I can gradually morph it into a more powerful deck over time.  Please post your thoughts on my deck list.

[TopSecret]

I'm not exactly sure why Chalice has fallen out of favor. But my guess is that Chalice eventually fell out of favor in aggro-control because aggro-control players typically either played Chalice or Null Rod, and eventually the consensus shifted to Null Rod at some point after Vault-Key became the default control/combo win-condition because Null Rod is better at addressing that combination. There could be a bit more to it, though.

I think you should keep the deck to 60 cards unless you have a good reason for it being at 62 since, everything else equal, you'd want to up the chance of opening with Confidant or drawing Ancestral and Timewalk.

If you have some proxy slots open and it's worth the life loss, changing the Duress to Thoughtseize might be a good idea since the opponent resolving a second turn Tarmogoyf or Lodestone Golem after you Duress them could be rough. This is a little more metagame dependent, but if you expect some decks packing creatures, it might be worth maindecking a Sower of Temptation to tutor for game one. I don't know if it would up the probability of winning game one enough to be worth maindecking and it might be too expensive for the mana curve, but I can imagine a couple scenarios where Sower allows a blowout in an otherwise unwinnable game one versus fish...etc.

The rest looks pretty good from what I can see.

[ArtOvWar]

I would cut the dazes. Daze isnt good imo.
A mate and me cutted it from Selkie aswell. Ur getting a land drop behind in a format that has alot of tempo decks like MUD, Sui, Fish etc now a days. And i would run 4 stifles.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm not exactly sure why Chalice has fallen out of favor. But my guess is that Chalice eventually fell out of favor in aggro-control because aggro-control players typically either played Chalice or Null Rod, and eventually the consensus shifted to Null Rod at some point after Vault-Key became the default control/combo win-condition because Null Rod is better at addressing that combination. There could be a bit more to it, though.

Chalice is infi better on the play.  By contrast, Null Rod is good against not only the moxen, but also Time Vaults, Divining Tops, and Triskelions.

[Djinn]

I'm not exactly sure why Chalice has fallen out of favor. But my guess is that Chalice eventually fell out of favor in aggro-control because aggro-control players typically either played Chalice or Null Rod, and eventually the consensus shifted to Null Rod at some point after Vault-Key became the default control/combo win-condition because Null Rod is better at addressing that combination. There could be a bit more to it, though.

I think you should keep the deck to 60 cards unless you have a good reason for it being at 62 since, everything else equal, you'd want to up the chance of opening with Confidant or drawing Ancestral and Timewalk.

If you have some proxy slots open and it's worth the life loss, changing the Duress to Thoughtseize might be a good idea since the opponent resolving a second turn Tarmogoyf or Lodestone Golem after you Duress them could be rough. This is a little more metagame dependent, but if you expect some decks packing creatures, it might be worth maindecking a Sower of Temptation to tutor for game one. I don't know if it would up the probability of winning game one enough to be worth maindecking, but I can imagine a couple scenarios where Sower allows a blowout in an otherwise unwinnable game one versus fish...etc.

The rest looks pretty good from what I can see.

I agree with sticking to 60, but I don't know what I should cut.  I might have some proxies left, depends on what I decide to sideboard and what I can get off eBay.  Proxies right now would be 2 moxes, 1 lotus, 1 ancestral, 1 time walk, 4 Underground Sea.  Leaves at least 1 left if the number of proxies allowed is 10.  I would run a suite of thoughtseize instead of duress like you said if I have the space to proxy.

And yes, Sower of Temptation is in my cards to consider in my sideboard.  I'm considering Extirpate, Energy Flux, Tormod's Crypt, more Diabolic Edict, Hurkyl's Recall, and maybe Threads of Disloyalty.  Thats all I can think of off the top of my head.

[TopSecret]

I would probably cut the two Stifle, but that's just me. I have no clue if that's the right move.

A Jitte or two in the sideboard would probably be good if you have some.

I haven't played against Workshop decks since Lodestone Golem hit the scene, but I think Energy Flux might be too hard to cast consistently against all those Sphere effects. I'm not sure what the best option for that matchup is, but you might want to rely on low mana cards that help you serve some quick flying beat down in that matchup. Having a 4th Bitterblossom in the sideboard might be good. Agony Warp is a common and could be decent against Fish because it can 2 for 1 them in combat. It doesn't necessarily kill Goyf, though.

Also, and this might be a bad idea since I've never seen anyone do it, but playing Inquisition of Kozilek instead of Duress might be good if you can't get Thoughtseize since it can actually hit some creatures.

Also, Mistblade Shinobi is a goddamn ninja. He is all kinds of sneaky, uncounterable shenanigans with Spellstutter Sprites. That may or may not be relevant to your cause.


goddamn ninja

[Djinn]

I would probably cut the two Stifle, but that's just me. I have no clue if that's the right move.

A Jitte or two in the sideboard would probably be good if you have some.

I haven't played against Workshop decks since Lodestone Golem hit the scene, but I think Energy Flux might be too hard to cast consistently against all those Sphere effects. I'm not sure what the best option for that matchup is, but you might want to rely on low mana cards that help you serve some quick flying beat down in that matchup. Having a 4th Bitterblossom in the sideboard might be good. Agony Warp is a common and could be decent against Fish because it can 2 for 1 them in combat. It doesn't necessarily kill Goyf, though.

Also, and this might be a bad idea since I've never seen anyone do it, but playing Inquisition of Kozilek instead of Duress might be good if you can't get Thoughtseize since it can actually hit some creatures.

Also, Mistblade Shinobi is a goddamn ninja. He is all kinds of sneaky, uncounterable shenanigans with Spellstutter Sprites. That may or may not be relevant to your cause.


goddamn ninja

Granted I have been away from the game for a while, Stifle just seems like it has so many applications.  Can stop fetches, storm, can help me get things into play, why is it not good anymore?

As far as goyf, I was thinking about sideboard smother/threads of disloyalty to kill/steal them.  Bitter is also there to chump block, so I'm not too worried about goyf, inkwell leviathan/iona proposes more of a threat imo, and all I have to counter them is edict.  How would it be possible to stop Oath with this deck?