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vroman
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« on: July 07, 2010, 11:51:30 am » |
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Good preordain leyline sanctity Maybe autumn veil stormtide leviathan scroll thief redirection sun titan unlikely leyline anticipation time reversal call to mind reassembling skeleton war priest thune manic vandal crystal ball pyretic ritual phylactery lich dark tutelage http://unpopularideasclub.blogspot.com/2010/07/m11-in-vintage.html |
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Unrestrict: Flash, Burning Wish Restore and restrict: Transmute Artifact, Abeyance, Mox Diamond, Lotus Vale, Scorched Ruins, Shahrazad Kill: Time Vault I say things http://unpopularideasclub.blogspot.com |
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meadbert
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« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2010, 12:36:27 pm » |
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I would run Sun Titan in Dredge if I were playing tomorrow so I would say that is good.
Pyretic Ritual I would upgrade to Maybe. I could see that run in a Nat Moes Belcher list.
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T1: Arsenal
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BruiZar
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« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2010, 01:58:23 pm » |
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Meadbert: I would like to hear your thoughts about Sun Titan. Why do you think it is better than the existing DR targets, Flamekin Zealot or Sharuum.
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GrandpaBelcher
Adepts
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Posts: 1421
1000% Serious
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« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2010, 02:04:37 pm » |
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Pyretic Ritual I would upgrade to Maybe. I could see that run in a Nat Moes Belcher list.
Meh, doubtful. It's worse than Seething Song and Desperate Ritual, neither of which I run now. I'm far more excited about Autumn Veil. |
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Oath of Happy
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« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2010, 02:05:03 pm » |
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Wouldnt the green titan be better in dredge? Gets you either 2 Bazaars, or a Bazaar and a City of Brass to cast stuff with.
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DubDub
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« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2010, 02:11:11 pm » |
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Wouldnt the green titan be better in dredge? Gets you either 2 Bazaars, or a Bazaar and a City of Brass to cast stuff with.
Those lands have to be in your library, whereas with Sun Titan you can grab a land that's been dredged into the yard. You can also grab other permanents with CMC <= 3, like Pithing Needle or Narcomoeba. |
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.
Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops. I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
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meadbert
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« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2010, 02:19:14 pm » |
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Meadbert: I would like to hear your thoughts about Sun Titan. Why do you think it is better than the existing DR targets, Flamekin Zealot or Sharuum.
This was covered in the Dredge thread, but basically I advocate 3 Sun Titans and 2 Zealots. That way you can either get back Bazaar, get back City of Brass and use Fatestitcher to untap Bazaar, or get back Lotus/LED and use multiple Fatestitchers for multiple activations of Bazaar. This keeps you Dredging till you are ready for Zealot. The advantage over Sharuum is that you can get Bazaar triggering landfall instead of going for Lotus which does not. The disadvantage is that you are more vulnerable to stuff like Ensnaring Bridge and Moat. The Green Titan says new lands come into play tapped so it does not allow for more dredging. |
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T1: Arsenal
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BruiZar
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« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2010, 02:20:42 pm » |
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@ Meadbert: I can understand your reasoning. Looking forward to your findings after the initial testing. I hope it turns out well cause the art on Sun Titan is BAD ASS. The good news is Sun Titan is the prerelease promo   |
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« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 02:32:31 pm by BruiZar »
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Killane
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Posts: 799
I am become Death, the destroyer of Worlds
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« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2010, 02:32:55 pm » |
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Meadbert: I would like to hear your thoughts about Sun Titan. Why do you think it is better than the existing DR targets, Flamekin Zealot or Sharuum.
This was covered in the Dredge thread, but basically I advocate 3 Sun Titans and 2 Zealots. That way you can either get back Bazaar, get back City of Brass and use Fatestitcher to untap Bazaar, or get back Lotus/LED and use multiple Fatestitchers for multiple activations of Bazaar. This keeps you Dredging till you are ready for Zealot. The advantage over Sharuum is that you can get Bazaar triggering landfall instead of going for Lotus which does not. The disadvantage is that you are more vulnerable to stuff like Ensnaring Bridge and Moat. The Green Titan says new lands come into play tapped so it does not allow for more dredging. It woudl also allow you to run cards like Seal of Primordium for artifact/enchantment hate that you can then regrowth from the yard, dispensing with the troublesome bridge and dispensing with the need to actually draw your hate without your hand being completely depleated with repeated use of Bazaar. |
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DCI Rules Advisor _____________________________ _____ Are you playing The Game? |
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BruiZar
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« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2010, 02:37:53 pm » |
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If you want to bring back a Seal to kill off Leyline of the Void, the seal will never hit the graveyard. If you want to get it back to get rid of a tormod's crypt or relic, he will just crack it in response, you canīt bring it back against Ravenous Trap or Jixlid Jailer. How would you play this Killane?
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Gandalf_The_White_1
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« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2010, 09:51:49 pm » |
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If you want to bring back a Seal to kill off Leyline of the Void, the seal will never hit the graveyard. If you want to get it back to get rid of a tormod's crypt or relic, he will just crack it in response, you canīt bring it back against Ravenous Trap or Jixlid Jailer. How would you play this Killane?
By returning something like Seal of Cleansing, Titan can basically serve the same function as Angel of Dispair does in killing stuff such as Ensnaring Bridge/Platinum Angel. It doesn't counteract GY hate, but has marginal utility while still being able to advance your main game plan (dredging/making dudes), unlike Angel. |
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We have rather cyclic discussion, and I fully believe that someone so inclined could create a rather accurate computer program which could do a fine job impersonating any of us. |
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Oath of Happy
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« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2010, 10:01:40 pm » |
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If you are in a position to Dread Return haven't you already won? Why not jsut run 3 Dread Return, 3 FKZ and use the rest of the slots for dredging and disrupting the opponent?
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Killane
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I am become Death, the destroyer of Worlds
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« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2010, 10:01:57 pm » |
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yes that's what i was getting at
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latinjoker
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« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2010, 11:39:46 pm » |
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It's funny, but the card I'm most excited about and the one that could make more of an impact on vintage/legacy in the future is Reverberate. Not for what it does, but for the doors it could open for others condemned to the reprint policy.
I'm not expecting all those doors to be opened (and I'm not trying to start a debate/discussion here), but it gives me hope...
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meadbert
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« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2010, 10:52:59 am » |
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If you are in a position to Dread Return haven't you already won? Why not jsut run 3 Dread Return, 3 FKZ and use the rest of the slots for dredging and disrupting the opponent?
If you Dread Return Zealot and can only attack for 12 or 15, then you have not already won. |
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T1: Arsenal
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Killane
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I am become Death, the destroyer of Worlds
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« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2010, 01:35:48 pm » |
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If you are in a position to Dread Return haven't you already won? Why not jsut run 3 Dread Return, 3 FKZ and use the rest of the slots for dredging and disrupting the opponent?
If you Dread Return Zealot and can only attack for 12 or 15, then you have not already won. If you can dread return and your opponent has an ensnaring bridge and 0 cards in hand, a platinum angel, or a blazing archon in play, then no you haven't already won. Angel of Despair and Woodfall Primus help with that, but this is far more flexable as it can get back bazaars, etc.. Dread return, as Meadbert pointed out, isn't always an insta-kill. |
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Oath of Happy
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« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2010, 02:41:37 pm » |
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If you are in a position to Dread Return haven't you already won? Why not jsut run 3 Dread Return, 3 FKZ and use the rest of the slots for dredging and disrupting the opponent?
If you Dread Return Zealot and can only attack for 12 or 15, then you have not already won. If you can dread return and your opponent has an ensnaring bridge and 0 cards in hand, a platinum angel, or a blazing archon in play, then no you haven't already won. Angel of Despair and Woodfall Primus help with that, but this is far more flexable as it can get back bazaars, etc.. Dread return, as Meadbert pointed out, isn't always an insta-kill. Then just use Riftwing Cloudskate and stop wasting valueable slots needed to fight cards like tormods and jailer. |
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Killane
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I am become Death, the destroyer of Worlds
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« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2010, 03:07:07 pm » |
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If you are in a position to Dread Return haven't you already won? Why not jsut run 3 Dread Return, 3 FKZ and use the rest of the slots for dredging and disrupting the opponent?
If you Dread Return Zealot and can only attack for 12 or 15, then you have not already won. If you can dread return and your opponent has an ensnaring bridge and 0 cards in hand, a platinum angel, or a blazing archon in play, then no you haven't already won. Angel of Despair and Woodfall Primus help with that, but this is far more flexable as it can get back bazaars, etc.. Dread return, as Meadbert pointed out, isn't always an insta-kill. Then just use Riftwing Cloudskate and stop wasting valueable slots needed to fight cards like tormods and jailer. what slots are you talking about? Sun Titan is a Dread Return target - these don;t generally help in the fight vs Crypt and Jailer. if you are referring to anti-hate cards, A SB of 4 Nature's Claim 4 Chain of Vapor 4 (something) 3 Eternal Wittness allows you to get back lands, answers, anit-hate that you've dredged to the yard,, etc... all over and over again. It also allows you to kill Oaths and Vaults and angels and Bridges etc.. oh my! if you're slow dredging to win games 2 and 3, the Titan provides an absurd recursion effect - you can even pull crap like using witness to get back therapy, casting it, then flashing witness back to cast therapy again and get bridge tokens while allowing more wintessing next turn. There are so many stupid things Sun Titan enables. |
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Delha
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« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2010, 03:13:45 pm » |
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Then just use Riftwing Cloudskate and stop wasting valueable slots needed to fight cards like tormods and jailer. And how many do you suggest running? Enough that it eats up those same valuable slots you're saving? The point of Titan here is that as a dredge enabler, it digs you into everything else, while giving you many other options besides. If they have E.Bridge/Platz/Archon, it helps you find your singleton Angel of Despair/Woodfall Primus/Riftwing Cloudskate, so you don't have to run multiples those cards. It's the same principle of singletons + tutors instead of 4x Narrow Card. |
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I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself. |
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BruiZar
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« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2010, 04:50:37 pm » |
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This is why I like Sharuum Sharuum so much. You can simply ignore the attack step because it is a vulnerability. The matchups that play null rod are already creature heavy so that shouldn't be too much of a problem in which case you gp for Akroma's Memorial insta-win.
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nineisnoone
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The Laughing Magician
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« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2010, 05:41:13 pm » |
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By returning something like Seal of Cleansing, Titan can basically serve the same function as Angel of Dispair does in killing stuff such as Ensnaring Bridge/Platinum Angel. It doesn't counteract GY hate, but has marginal utility while still being able to advance your main game plan (dredging/making dudes), unlike Angel. I would also remember Grudge and Serenity. Another card to consider might be Aura of Silence. It can slow down some combo wins (oath/tendrils) in addition to one-shotting an ensnaring bridge or whatever. |
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I laugh a great deal because I like to laugh, but everything I say is deadly serious.
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SiegeX
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Posts: 209
I'm attacking the darkness!
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« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2010, 06:22:55 pm » |
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Seems like O-ring might be the spot removal of choice for sun titan.
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Oath of Happy
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« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2010, 08:11:07 pm » |
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Seems like O-ring might be the spot removal of choice for sun titan.
Great Idea, can you think of some more useless win-more cards to take up SB slots in a dredge deck? If you can dead return, you've probably won, if not, Riftwing Cloudskate either lets you resue Bazaar, or returns a bridge/Platz to their hand. And, it can be used if drawn in hand. |
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BruiZar
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« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2010, 08:22:28 pm » |
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Sorry to burst your bubble, but Riftwing Cloudskate sucks donkeyballz too. I would rather have a 6/6 vigilance that has an effect everytime he hits than a worthless 2/2 that does nothing 99% of the time, since Ensnaring Bridge isn't played often (Only by stax decks, since mud is so popular, it's not getting played anyway).
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Oath of Happy
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« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2010, 08:26:02 pm » |
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Sorry to burst your bubble, but Riftwing Cloudskate sucks donkeyballz too. I would rather have a 6/6 vigilance that has an effect everytime he hits than a worthless 2/2 that does nothing 99% of the time, since Ensnaring Bridge isn't played often (Only by stax decks, since mud is so popular, it's not getting played anyway).
So then why not just use FKZ |
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BruiZar
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« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2010, 11:30:43 pm » |
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Because FKZ is not always lethal, which is why I prefer Sharuum.
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Oath of Happy
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« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2010, 12:32:27 am » |
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Aside from all the Ichorid discussion, I think one card that was overlooked is Garruk's Companion. It's no Tarmogoyf, but 2 mana for 3 power plus trample might be good in a Stompy deck, or a deck like GR Beats.
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2010, 07:54:02 am » |
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Aside from all the Ichorid discussion, I think one card that was overlooked is Garruk's Companion. It's no Tarmogoyf, but 2 mana for 3 power plus trample might be good in a Stompy deck, or a deck like GR Beats.
Too bad the Green Leyline wasn't a Concordant Crossroads. That would have been a great card. |
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Wagner
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« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2010, 09:41:22 am » |
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Aside from all the Ichorid discussion, I think one card that was overlooked is Garruk's Companion. It's no Tarmogoyf, but 2 mana for 3 power plus trample might be good in a Stompy deck, or a deck like GR Beats.
Too bad the Green Leyline wasn't a Concordant Crossroads. That would have been a great card. That would have been very awesome, and probably good on your side only. Although green doesn't get Haste anymore (wel...), but the Red one would have been perfect for it! I mean, Leyline of the Void is basically a one sided Planar Void, so why can't we have a one sided Fervor? |
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BruiZar
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« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2010, 12:20:11 pm » |
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Aside from all the Ichorid discussion, I think one card that was overlooked is Garruk's Companion. It's no Tarmogoyf, but 2 mana for 3 power plus trample might be good in a Stompy deck, or a deck like GR Beats.
Too bad the Green Leyline wasn't a Concordant Crossroads. That would have been a great card. That would lead me to play combo elves in vintage immediately. It would be more than awesome. Leyline of the Crossroads oh yeah... Even a leyline of living lands would be awesome |
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