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Author Topic: Steel City Vault revisited  (Read 6911 times)
Bongo
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« on: August 02, 2010, 03:26:08 am »

While Steel City Vault hasn't gotten any press lately, I feel like it's still a contender. Maindeck Welder and Ancient Grudge seem to be good in a Workshop heavy metagame.

My current list:

2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
3 City of Brass

1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Tinker

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Memory Jar

1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Time Vault
2 Voltaic Key
1 Empty the Warrens

1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Force of Will
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Goblin Welder
1 Fire / Ice
1 Repeal
1 Rebuild


To get the ball rolling, here are a few firestarter questions:

1. What do you think of Jace in SCV?
2. If you cut Windfall, what would you replace it with?
3. What cards you like, and what cards you don't like in the list above?
4. What's your opinion on SCV in the current metagame?
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Commandant
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« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2010, 11:01:28 am »

To my knowledge I'm the only person running an incarnation of this deck in my area. While I have been rather unsuccessful I believe this is due to my inexperience. Nonetheless it is rather fun to play and very good when it gets going.

1. I have yet to play with JtMS, I plan on trying it out replacing See Beyond.

2. While the weakest of the Draw 7, I still find Windfall to be worth the inclusion when on the play. I'm not sure what you could replace it with if you were to remove it. Off the top of my head See Beyond could be a decent sub. I ran two for a while and they worked wonders considering the deck is mostly singletons. Note that two mana sorceries are pretty bad when facing down MUD.

3. I don't like Storm cards in this deck. I tried both Tendrils and Empty the Warrens and while neat they grew on me as unnecessary. You still can't win with Storm through Null Rod. Based on the deck's artifact centric win condition, it is in my opinion that any additional win conditions should circumvent our most common hate cards to improve resiliency i.e. Tinker bot. I replaced Fire and Ice with Darkblast - I like being able to bin artifacts using dredge. I felt it was worthwhile to include this ability over anything Fire and Ice could potentiality do, while still letting me eat x/1s all day long. I also ditched Transmute Artifact for Tezzeret. While this goes against my artifact hate line of thought I have found him to be excellent as a redundant win condition/tutor while functioning as sufficient counter distraction for other bombs and unlike Storm cards he already has synergy with the deck.

4. There are more compelling choices, to each his own. Sigh Dredge.

This is what I have been tooling around with:

1    Mox Jet
1    Mox Ruby
1    Mox Pearl
1    Mox Emerald
1    Mox Sapphire
1    Black Lotus
1    Lotus Petal
1    Sol Ring
1    Mana Vault
1    Mana Crypt
1    Time Vault
2    Voltaic Key
1    Memory Jar
2    Goblin Welder
1    Rebuild
1    Intuition
1    Darkblast
1    Brainstorm
1    Misdirection
4    Force of Will
1    Gifts Ungiven
1    Fact or Fiction
1    Mystical Tutor
1    Vampiric Tutor
2    Ancient Grudge
1    Ancestral Recall
1    Thirst for Knowledge
1    Tinker
1    Ponder
1    Windfall
1    Regrowth
1    Time Walk
1    See Beyond
1    Timetwister
1    Demonic Tutor
1    Merchant Scroll
1    Yawgmoth's Will
1    Wheel of Fortune
1    Tezzeret the Seeker
1    Inkwell Leviathan
1    Island
1    Scalding Tarn
1    Polluted Delta
1    Flooded Strand
1    Misty Rainforest
1    Tropical Island
2    Volcanic Island
2    Underground Sea
3    City of Brass
1    Tolarian Academy

My sideboard fluctuates a lot. I am curious as to what others run.

Sorry for my horrible grammar.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 11:14:56 am by Commandant » Logged

Quote from: David Ochoa
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AmbivalentDuck
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« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2010, 11:47:56 am »

Instead of storm cards, could you run a Burning Wish?  EtW isn't exactly a bad sideboard card and Burning Wish is a Demonic for it (and answers!) main.   I suspect you bring in cards like Duress and Massacre from the sideboard anyways.
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Commandant
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« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2010, 12:05:25 pm »

Instead of storm cards, could you run a Burning Wish?  EtW isn't exactly a bad sideboard card and Burning Wish is a Demonic for it (and answers!) main.   I suspect you bring in cards like Duress and Massacre from the sideboard anyways.

For reference.

My most recent side board consisted of:

1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Ingot Chewer
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Helm of Obedience

Not sure what we could add for a Wish target. Wish seems bad in a meta where MUD/STAX is present, I can barely cast spells as is.

Side question: What are the benefits of running Storm cards in this deck? From my experience we do not have the correct shell to utilize Storm spells though hate. I am curious as to others experiences.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2010, 12:09:17 pm by Commandant » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2010, 07:19:01 pm »

Well guys, I'm running that deck now for about 4 months. And I learned a lot about it.
It's very flexible, but would be much more flexible when adding the fifth color to it.

First I copied it exactly, it was like this:
9 p9
1 wheel of fortune
1 windfall
1 memory jar
1 time vault
2 voltaic key
2 underground seas
2 volcanic island
1 tropical island
4 polluted delta
1 island
1 tolarian academy
3 city of brass
1 Lotus Petal
2 goblin welder
1 sphinx of the steel wind / Leviathan
1 regrowth
1 yawgmoth's will
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 merchant scroll
1 mystical tutor
1 Tinker
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Rebuild
4 force of will
1 Misdirection
2 impulse
1 brainstorm
1 ponder
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Fire // Ice
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring


I'd first like to analyse the deck in general, how it behaves against other decks and then go into details, discussing the weak points and then my improvements.

The main idea of the deck is to get your combo (time vault+ voltaic key) veeery fast. Basically, if there is no opponent who tries to hinder you by either countering your key-spells (draw 7s, tutors), or putting some obstacles into your way (null rod, spheres, chalice), you will probably win in 2-4 turns. even 1. turn is very possible.
The deck itself is very active, not passive, so it only plays free counterspells, as you want to spend your mana on your key-cards as soon as possible. however, before playing a draw7 you want to make sure that you have enough mana open to continue playing spells or at least have the means to protect you with ancient grudge against other combo decks.
If you draw 7 without any open mana or if the possibilities are too low to draw any more mana, that would be too bad, as you'll give your oppenent the big advantage of playing the new 7 cards first. better avoid this. he could any time draw his own combo, or do anything else cruel to you.

The deck is also very good in regenerating itself after your key-cards were all countered or destroyed. yawgmoth's will, regrowth, 2 goblin welders and timetwister allow you, to replay your graveyard again and again.
I remember a game where i could take 4 time walks before the opponent even got a single turn - just to find my combo in the fifth turn after another draw 7. (it was a staxxx-opponent, so he did not have any force of will to counter)
Something similar happened just yesterday, when I was so lucky to draw 16 cards with ancestral recall, twister, recall, regrowth, recall during only 2 turns - while drawing that many cards, you get so many artifact mana that you can play more and more powerfull spells - or the same spells again and again from your graveyard.
The more draw 7s you can play during one turn the better because every time you get more mana and more cards in your graveyard (which is often as good as having them in your hand, that's why I always spread my graveyard on the table like a dredge player! it's your second hand!),
while your opponent can't do anything to improve his board - he doesn't get any permanents, but you do.

This is why I call these draw 7s key-cards. They are your engine.

The best that could happen is, to draw 7 immediately after you start the game, as you then already have 3 mana in play (if you didn't use lotus) and you get a fresh hand, while your opponent gets a new hand without being able to mulligan if its bad for him to start with.
The worst that could happen: you have a hand full of mana but only one card to dig your library. it's too risky: when your opponent counters that single spell, it could happen that you'll never get through with any other spell again. Your best protection against counterspells is a huge quantity of spells! if you don't have this qunatity, it slows you down too much, and when your opponent draws better, he'll be able to stop you from doing anyhting by drawing more counters, wasting your lands, and switch off your artifacts by playing null rod.
There is only one situation where you may AND SHOULD tap out for a draw 7 if you can: on turn one when you start playing. your opponent could counter it and start his game with 2 cards less, or he draws 7 new cards with you without being able to redraw if he has a bad had (mulligan).
You hear, opponents? Don't let us play our tutors and don't let us draw. sometimes countering a brainstorm or ponder can end up crucial for us.

The draw 7s are very gould as soon as the first gets through the counter wall. sometimes such a turn may end up in a "explosion" because you draw so many cards and play all your artifact mana.

A big strength of this deck is Ancient Grudge, Welder, and Rebuild main deck. acient grudge is sooo damn good. there is no better artifact removal. you can destroy any artificial obstacles: null rods, needles, spheres... or your opponent's time vault when the untap ability is on the stack: your opponent must have 2 counters to avoid your grudge from resolving!
of course, with welder in play and no triskelion, darkblast or fire//ice in your opponents hand, that little guy can solve most of the problems your deck has, or provide you with many many extra cards (memory jar), free robots from the grave, it can protect you from any combo or artifact creature, or just make your opponent's answers on your artifacts useless.
with a welder on your side, your opponent feels like you, when your opponent has null rod.
Even if the board gets full of obstacles on your opponents side, there is still an option: rebuild. it's best set on your oppenents end-step, when you know you can play a draw 7 on your turn and send his artifacts back to his library or at least to his graveyard (more options for welder). (by the way: who says this deck cannot do mana disruption? draw 7s are best at this on first turn: just give your opponent a new hand before he can play anything and he could get into serious mana problems... and sometimes an early ancient grudge on your opponents sol ring or the only blue mana source (mox sapphire) can win you the game! you don't have to wait until your foe puts a big problem on the table.

once i started the game and had three open mana on my opponents first turn, waiting with an ancient grudge and recall in hand. he played a 2mana land, sol ring and trinisphere... at end of turn i destroyed his sol ring and he could never again play anything. after drawing 3 cards i found my combo and could win after two more turns, with trinisphere still in play and him sitting on 2 useless mana.

Another weakness are wastelands combined with obstacles and/or counter spells. If there is only one such threat, that's ok. but wasting your land red/green producing lands, playing null rod, and then counter your answers to null rod... that really sucks. fish is best at this.
there must be a solution against this ugly, stinky, and absolutely, by-no-means-pimp-, budget-crappy-from-T2-imported-pile-of-hate-cards... but which one? we'll see it later.



First my personal statistics on how the deck performs against other decks:

Tezzeret : 70% wins (thanks to ancient grudge and welder, but also because you're just much faster)
dredge: 90% wins (never lost a tournament game (worst result was 2:1, but only once) because it doesn't prevent you from playing your keys. You only have to sideboard 4 ravenous traps and you can play as if you'd have no opponent on the table. if he starts the game, you should exile his grave after his first dredge-session, mostly in response on his cabal therapy - until he'll get his next chance to play another therapy, you will have a completly new hand.

staxxx : 50%. depends on who starts the game.
fish : 50% either he manages to cut your mana and slow you down, or you are just too fast, so that you can ignore almost anything he does.

a not-aggro version of fish with many more counterspells, like my friend plays it: 40% or less : if he doesn't let you play draw7s or tutors, plus cuts your mana and gets his selkies through: no way to win. However, you have still the possibility to "be just faster" again.

combo oath/oath: 10% - really! This deck sucks. I never won a tournament game against oath. problem: it seems very common that they put an oath on the table on turn one. and when they feel you have force, they just play a duress before. in like 70% of the games they got their first big creature on turn two. maybe that was a special badluck for me, but okay... they made me also rethink about my deck...
The other problem with oath: they play sometimes about 10-12 counterspells plus duress/thougthseize. it's just impossible to come through with your key-spells.

The "statistics" show: the more counterspells (combined with other threats) - the more problems. but what to do against counters? - counter back! main deck!

But before revealing my changes, i'd like to discuss the 4 worst cards of the deck.

absolutely worst and unuseful: fire // ice.
it happens like one in a million that you have it in your hand when there is an ugly meddling mage on the table. sometimes it can tap a tinker robot or oath-creature and gain you one more turn. or you could tap your opponents second blue mana to prevent him of draining your draw7s.
These are many applications for this card, but honestly: it doesn't have such an impact on the game that it would win it. against staxxx its an absolutely dead card. you'll probably want to feed your forces with it.
After the first tournament playing scv i figured out, that I always boarded it out. In contrast to your other mighty spells, both of its parts are only a little better than drawing a card for two mana, which is very bad. what we need is something that is compareable to a draw7...: pay2, destroy 5 or 6 (or 17 or 99...) an idea which card could help? you still have to read further to find the answer.
First I replaced it for sensei's divining top. but soon it sucked, because i figured out it was passive-controllish card which doesn't fit into my deck. it's just too slow (yes, it is!). also it suffered many times of null rods.

okay. I cannot wait anymore to tell you: the solver of many problems is balance!!!
it's more than just a swiss army knife, because a swiss knife can only solve one problem at a time, balance solves 3!
When i look back at all my games i lost, it was either because i drew a fire//ice in a difficult situation (joke, but it's true...) or because they countered everything, destoyed my lands, got their selkie-engine to work and drew too many counterspells.
In every single situation when your opponent has a better board/hand position, this card can win you the game!
And even on turn one when you start: There is nothing i like to do more with this deck than playing 4 artifacts on turn one while keeping a blue land and a draw (not draw 7) in my hand and start with a balance: you don't lose a land, you don't lose a creature, you don't discard any cards : your opponent starts with 2 cards in hand plus one.

This card can remove all fishy creatures, all golems and karns and juggernauts. it could even let your opponent sacrifice his tinker-robot.
this card can equalize your mana bases after your opponent wasted all your lands and you got stuck.
this card can equalize your hand cards.
this card can do all of the above at once!
This card is the REAL problem solver!
PLUS this card requires you to play a tundra and add the 15th land to your deck which is really good against all these aggroshop and fish decks (meta in europe)
PLUS tundra allows you to play ray of revelation in your side against oath. it's for the same reason the best enchantment-handler, as ancient grudge is for artifacts
==> this deck has the best answers on every threat, as going five color allows you to play the best cards of every color.
PLUS i never felt any disadvantages because of playing the fifth color, simply because there are already 3 city of brasses and just playing one fetchable land more seems to be enough.

You still don't believe me? then try to play this deck in both, the classic and the "more balanced" version, against every deck type, you'll find that this card is more flexible as rubber or something.

the next changes i made: add 2 mana drains, take out 2 impulses.impulse is really good. it digs 4 cards and gives you the best of these 4. but it's only 1 card. we need quantity, not quality. to ensure quantity, we must get through with our draw7. this is why i play 2 mana drains.
they ensure to come through with your key cards or start the game passive, just to gain more speed for your next turn. draining a golem after a forcing a null rod or similar is just fun, especially when it helps you to get a big draw7-turn.


No we've put in 4 cards: balance, tundra, 2 mana drains, took 2 impulses out. what other 2 cards should we cut?

The first answer is quite clear: fire//ice. its only purpose was to handle e very local problem, but we've found something better, a global solution for many problems.

The next card to cut is transmute artifact. it is good, it is flexible, but its still a bad tinker that doesn't get you a robot on turn one. let's say we've put in tundra for it to fix and extend our mana base.
There are many situations where transmute artifact was great, just perfect. some examples:
  • find your combo
  • fetch black lotus to start a yawgmoth's will-turn or a draw 7
  • if welder is in play and you have enough artifacts, you may "entomb" a robot, and then get it for "free" via welder (sphinx, jar, or even a combo piece)
  • Once i could even get a sphinx and pay the difference - it saved my life and won the game

Nevertheless it's too expensive. It happened too often that it got countered - which is very bad because I paid not only 2 valuable blue mana, but also sacrificed a mox or sol ring.

playing a little slower by adding 2 mana drains does really make the difference, as you will be able to protect your key-spells 40% better : 100% * new_number_of_counters(7)/old_number(5) = 140%, (misdirection, 4 forces and 2 drains)
The extra counter make the deck more stable. we do not need to add more counterspells, because adding more doesn't bring you the same benefint, for example : 100% * 9/7 = 128% ... this calculation is very simplified, believe it or not. that's more a matter of experience than math Wink
and the experience says, that any two other cards from the deck are more worth than these 28% of counter-protection Smile.

You actually don't have to think a lot about these numbers, just try the deck and tell me your oppinion.


I hope after this essay to win the next tournament in zurich on sunday Smile

b.t.w. : this here is my current deck (with sideboard):

better scans @ http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38431.510
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2010, 07:22:02 pm »

your Power 9 is in terrific condition!
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srbandit
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« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2010, 07:39:10 pm »

your Power 9 is in terrific condition!

emerald, ruby and pearl could be a lot better Wink
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« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2010, 10:29:11 am »

This deck seems like it could use Lotus Cobra nicely, pumping out bombs very quickly, such as Jace. Cobra also fixes mana, and lets you play Necropotence.

7 Blue Fetches
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 City of Brass
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal

4 Lotus Cobra
1 Inkwell Leviathan
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tinker
2 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Nature's Claim
1 Misdirection/Hurkyll's Recall
1 Goblin Welder

4 Force of Will
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Memory Jar
1 Necropotence
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gifts Ungiven

This deck is like Long, in that it just drops bombs and hopes that one sticks. Force of Will should generally be an offensive weapon in this deck.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 08:56:01 pm by gamegeek2 » Logged
Commandant
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« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2010, 06:36:33 pm »

Could you explain the reasoning behind running Draw 7s and no Goblin Welders?
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« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2010, 08:56:32 pm »

I cut the TFK for a Welder, TFK seems somewhat underwhelming when stacked up against Jace and Gifts.
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« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2011, 08:50:05 am »

Took this deck to back-to-back top 8's recently in the Philippines, but I tweaked the list ever-so-slightly after I saw the article on Vintage Control. I wanted to combine elements I liked from both decks, because originally, I was going to give Vintage Control a try, but while playing it,  I just found myself so underwhelmed when I was Preordaining instead of Drawing 7.


2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Tolarian Academy
5 Assorted Fetchlands
1 Island
3 City of Brass

1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

2 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

1 Tinker

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall

1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Memory Jar

1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Jace, The Mindsculptor


1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Force of Will
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Goblin Welder
1 Nature's Claim
1 Repeal
1 Misdirection

Lemme explain the tweaks I made, and why I did them...

1. Myr Battlesphere - Given the amount of mana one can produce, it isn't unlikely you can cough up 7 or more mana by turn 3 or 4. This is where the Battlesphere comes into play.
2. A fifth fetchland - I feel more comfortable with the extra land, and I'd add a 4th City of Brass if I found another thing to cut.
3. Two-of Preordain - I took out Transmute Artifact because I felt card filtration was better than another conditional tutor, and helps you with your one-land opens, where you go land drop, Preordain into a Mox. I also took out Fact Or Fiction because while it's a powerful card in this deck, I really value the early-game rush, and with Ponder, BS, AR, and two Preordains, the deck got a shot of early-game consistency that it needs against other decks.
4. Jace 2.0 - He's a valid kill condition in lieu of Fire/Ice, and he's just awesome, period. I only ran one copy because multiples implies you're willing to go control at some point. You're not.
5. Nature's Claim - Rebuild was removed in lieu of this. Answers Oath in Game 1, and breaks your own Mana Crypt when it gets too risky.
6. Repeal - Removed the second Voltaic Key for this, but I'm thinking this would be better-served by being replaced by Echoing Truth. BSC is not something I want to be unprepared for.

If ever, I'm tempted to run a Sensei's Diving Top somewhere in this deck, but so far, I've been very happy with my results. I have only lost to Tezz and Oath in the tournament setting, both post-Swiss. Both versions ran Thoughtseize, so TS in addition to Drains/Pierces/FOW really hurt me more than anything else. I was plowing over Shop decks, combo decks, Dredge, Fish, but anything like Tezz or Oath gave me trouble.

Would you side out Welder against Oath? I'm beginning to feel I shouldn't.
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« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2011, 10:27:31 am »

I wouldn't side out welders vs oath simply for the fact that most lists are running BSC.  If they oath him up first, you can weld him out and he'll shuffle back, giving them a mox.  There's a chance he'll keep shuffling on top of the other critter, so you will be able to trade him for a milled mox each time.  This should give you plenty of time until you go ape yourself.  Even if he's the second critter, that means they need to beat you with just the first creature attacking until you can win.
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