The Dark Times Primer

[boggyb]

Third match I lost 1-2 to shops.  I forget the order of games, but one game I won when my opponent thought he could duplicant my Marit Lage.  The other he opened up with some spheres and I never recovered.  Third game was close and in a complicated stack of me wastelanding his wasteland to activating hexmage to have it dismembered (something like that) but I never got another hexmage on board.

hum, if that's indeed what happened, then someone made a mistake: since the cost of hexmage's ability is to sacrifice it, the ability would go on the stack before he'd have an opportunity to dismember it. . .

Also, 2nd_lawl, you said that one should activate Marit Lage on your own turn vs. a wasteland, but I don't see how this'd help -- wouldn't they just waste in response on your own turn anyway? And then once the Depths trigger resolves, the ability would be countered..? What am I missing here?

edit: you said

Just remember to make the 20/20 on your turn, to play around Wasteland unless you have a Wasteland of your own.

Oh I see -- should make it on your own turn in case they drop a waste on their turn (thought you were saying to make it on your turn when they have a wasteland already out. . .)

[boggyb]

edit: double post, sorry

[Ryan]

hum, if that's indeed what happened, then someone made a mistake: since the cost of hexmage's ability is to sacrifice it, the ability would go on the stack before he'd have an opportunity to dismember it. . .

You are right, I am forgetting something.

[boggyb]

2nd_lawl, wonder if you could comment a bit on the splash discussion people've been having. . .  in my playtesting I've often felt like the Obeyline inclusion is a bit overreaching and that a green splash, as others have suggested, would work better. My basic thinking is this: Obeyline works great against Dredge, of course, but swapping those 5 out for tarm + mox emerald, and adding in nature's claim to the side, would be better against Stax, though maybe less so, given that adding in Bayou exposes you to Wasteland and weakens Demonic Consultation, as you suggested. So, would you say this might be a meta call? Or is the Obeyline angle a critical component of the deck? I.e. could you play a GB build in a Stax-heavy environment, and a mono build in a dredge-heavy one? Obviously my thinking here is way less evolved than yours, and I haven't playtested the green version, so just wondering what your experience here is, if any. I'm building and testing the green version tonight. I also don't have much experience with this deck so my thinking on the Obeyline angle could be way way off.

The deck is interesting because it's not balls-to-the-wall combo -- it's "disrupt until combo", and can be slow in connecting its combo at times (it's at least slow-ish maybe ~40% of the time, I've found, and way slower vs. Stax et al). However, I've found that when the Marit Lage combo stalls for whatever reason, it's due to reasons that are also stalling a potential Obeyline combo (you're mana screwed/under sphere effects, behind a wall of hate, etc.) -- this is especially true when you don't have Leyline in your opening hand. So, when the combos stall, my instinct is to switch over to beats, but Hexmage and Confidant alone don't nearly cut it. Feels like replacing Leyline with Tarmogoyf would activate the latter strategy without hampering the former very much. Only thing that gives me pause is, he's a generic creature and this deck seems to work best with multifunctioning/complex cards.

I also wonder what a monoblack version without the leylines but with more tutors and disruption would be like. Grim tutor? Rhystic tutor? Cabal therapy? Hex Parasite? Chains of Mephistopheles. . ? Has anyone tried a version like that extensively? I also wonder, by the way, if Sinkhole could work at all.

[2nd_lawl]

2nd_lawl, wonder if you could comment a bit on the splash discussion people've been having. . .  in my playtesting I've often felt like the Obeyline inclusion is a bit overreaching and that a green splash, as others have suggested, would work better. My basic thinking is this: Obeyline works great against Dredge, of course, but swapping those 5 out for tarm + mox emerald, and adding in nature's claim to the side, would be better against Stax, though maybe less so, given that adding in Bayou exposes you to Wasteland and weakens Demonic Consultation, as you suggested. So, would you say this might be a meta call? Or is the Obeyline angle a critical component of the deck? I.e. could you play a GB build in a Stax-heavy environment, and a mono build in a dredge-heavy one? Obviously my thinking here is way less evolved than yours, and I haven't playtested the green version, so just wondering what your experience here is, if any. I'm building and testing the green version tonight. I also don't have much experience with this deck so my thinking on the Obeyline angle could be way way off.

The deck is interesting because it's not balls-to-the-wall combo -- it's "disrupt until combo", and can be slow in connecting its combo at times (it's at least slow-ish maybe ~40% of the time, I've found, and way slower vs. Stax et al). However, I've found that when the Marit Lage combo stalls for whatever reason, it's due to reasons that are also stalling a potential Obeyline combo (you're mana screwed/under sphere effects, behind a wall of hate, etc.) -- this is especially true when you don't have Leyline in your opening hand. So, when the combos stall, my instinct is to switch over to beats, but Hexmage and Confidant alone don't nearly cut it. Feels like replacing Leyline with Tarmogoyf would activate the latter strategy without hampering the former very much. Only thing that gives me pause is, he's a generic creature and this deck seems to work best with multifunctioning/complex cards.

I also wonder what a monoblack version without the leylines but with more tutors and disruption would be like. Grim tutor? Rhystic tutor? Cabal therapy? Hex Parasite? Chains of Mephistopheles. . ? Has anyone tried a version like that extensively? I also wonder, by the way, if Sinkhole could work at all.

Okay there is a lot to unpack here. Lets talk first about obeyline.  I've said previously in this thread that the deck functions fine without it, but lets look at the reasoning FOR it to understand what it does.  Please understand that fundamentally every deck in my opinion is a 75, not a 60 meaning that you have to view the inclusion of leyline as being "cheaper" in oppurtunity cost because it gives you 5 free sideboard slots,  This deck would want to be playing 6-7 dedicated dredge SB cards if not for the MD leyline.  This means that if you want to include tarmogoyfs lets say, those goyfs come at the expense not of leylines but of 5 other SB cards that need to be cut to make room for the leylines(and helm, which if you are playing leyline is certainly worth the inclusion) in the board.  In terms of obeyline's functionality in the deck itself, it Significantly increases the power of the tutors. With leyline out, every tutor is lethal.  The more I play with the deck the the more I feel that basically the cards that correlate highest with winning are the tutors(especially Consultation).  The most important skill in playing this deck above Everything else, is to understand what your opponents gameplan is, and figure out if you need to disrupt it(and how to disrupt it) OR race it (and how to race it) In general your opponents deck will be fundamentally unable to BEAT your combo, they have to race it(storm, dredge) Counter it(blue decks) or prevent it from happening(stax) Generally speaking you want to disrupt the race decks, race the stax deck, and decide to disrupt OR race based on duresses against the blue decks.  

Aside on the blue decks:
That last part  of the last section understanding when to race or disrupt a blue deck is the single most important and also the hardest thing to learn, you need to step into their shoes and try and understand the capabilities of their hand, are they threatening tinker, jace, vault/key, a huge yawgs will?  Use your duresses to channel your opponents lines of play towards something you can beat(eg, taking the jace you cant beat vs the tinker when you have edict in your hand, even if you have to fade a counter on their drawstep and they can't cast their jace yet), its much better to have your opp down a jace and a tinker + mox, then to have edict in hand vs their jace.  In general you will find the strongest play by not worrying about their draw step, trying to beat everything is a big big mistake, this deck is designed to exploit holes in the format(lack of ways to kill an indestructible 20/20 token) but its Also designed to attack vulnerabilities that your opponents decks will present through natural variations in their draws,  if it seems feasible I almost always go for the manascrew my opponent line,  ESPECIALLY if I have access to bob which can quickly roll up your tempoary advantage into ending the game with null rod(which you will already have as the "manascrew them" line of play almost always involves null rod) + striplock or making a 20/20.  While some games against blue decks(especially ones with bob) can turn into true grinds, this deck is not a control deck, the disruption is meant to be unbalancing, not game ending.  Trading card for card against a blue deck(unless you have confidant) going long is suicide in a deck filled with dark rituals, redundant leylines, and legendary lands etc.  The control matchup usually hinges on creating a "shields down" moment where they just die, and with a good hand this moment comes as early as turn 1 or 2.


  The problem with tarmogoyf specifically especially against stax is that you cannot ever cast him on turn 1 without a mox or lotus and that he wont beat down especially hard until the midgame.  Most of the best starts this deck has involve ritual(or lotus).  Against stax i would probably rather have Negator in my deck than tarmogoyf, that way if i win the die roll I could actually get a big threat down turn 1.  I mean realistically how big is goyf going to be against stax? I agree that both the DD combo and obeyline include the vulnerability that they require you to cast spells, but they dont actually require more spells then tarmogoyf, DD doesn't care about spheres(and hexmage costs the same as goyf), and leyline comes down turn 0.  Ive beaten stax a few times by going T0 leyline and then tutoring up lotus and jet so i could assemble enough mana to cast helm through spheres.  Spheres themselves are not especially good vs this deck, since you have enough basic lands to beat them going long, and wastelands to disrupt their mana under their own spheres, the problem is spheres + clock.  The games where I beat workshops generally are the ones where im going first and play some mana accelerator on the play(or thoughtseize their golem), and on the draw where they keep an all spheres + no pressure hand and  we both flood out and they cant stick a threat. The most germane question to ask is weather goyf helps you in in the other games, meaning ones where they have spheres + pressure. Generally no, and the card you want in those situations is either mana crypt or snuff out.  If they have no spheres(or just thorns) and are all slash panthers, then hexmage is what you want, since it it laughs at slash panther(even better than goyf, which would trade with it in most situations(assuming land + sorcery +  artifact).

Regarding the extra tutors, I think they could be included but only along with more permanant mana sources.  the deck as built right now is designed to operate on only 2 lands(with burts of mana provided by ritual/lotus)  Adding 3 mana tutors requires a commitment to playing additional swamps or mana crypt/sol ring if you want rystic tutor.

Regarding Chains of mephestopheles:I used to play it back in the day,  is terrible unless you are playing against a lot of remora decks. Remember it does nothing to Bob.  Generally speaking vintage is a format of extreme card power disparity: the blue decks are designed to find and play a few specific powerful cards/combos so "pure" card advantage is quite weak, this is why we are maxed out on duresses instead of say hymns: the duress is ALWAYS going to stop that tinker.

regarding Hex parasite: I think its fineand it has alot of cool synergies with the deck and format(slow motioning comboing off your DD for only 10 mana over turns, while beating down for example, eating opposing wires and turning their smokestack into a sphere, eating jace etc)  Of these interactions it feels to me like Blue decks and dredge are resurgent and Workshops are declining or getting less disruptive and more agressive(slash panther) to combat jace.  All of this is VERY good for us as the deck is "naturally" good against jace: 8 duresses, 4 hexmages and a combo that once in play cannot be interacted with by the blue decks generally. In situations where you have hex/DD in play opposing jaces generally do nothing. They can brainstorm into timewalk but all that does is give them more shots at vault/key(which is usually their only MD out).  If they have jace + timewalk before activating jace that is bad, but if you have the read that they have timewalk then you can kill the jace in response to the jace bounce instead of making the 20/20 to deprive them of their timewalk turn jace activation, if they have no other action then time walk itself isn't especially good.  The worst things they could have are chain of vapor and repeal, luckily these are are pretty unpopular choices, especially given how awful repeal is vs shops, even if they have them you are redrawing to duress/seize to clear those away and still applying pressure with 2/1 beatdown(which wins a surprising number of games).

Update regarding combo timing vs shops:  Since they now have metamorph(to legend rule marit lage) it isn't always strictly correct to combo on your turn, but is generally still correct to do so(as they are much more likely to have a waste or strip then a metamorph[most builds arent playing 4] + 3 mana).  If you know they have metamoph and the mana to cast it(but had to duress away wire on t1 for example) then you have to wait and fade waste/strip off the top. If you don't know their hand but YOU have a wasteland, it is now correct to wait. as you can just waste their waste in their end step before comboing.  Having your combo sitting there "squaring off" against their wasteland is fine, as you are drawing to waste + strip + ghost quarter(postboard)+ any tutor + needle + sometimes crucible if you have already used a waste previously.

Hope this was helpful

[Random Noob]

Obeyline seems as a must play in the 75, since you can at least board it against Oath, where it does a finde Job. I am still happy with the Hex Parasite/Death's Shadow Combo (ya x can be Zero...) since in my Meta where many Muds are around and like to say Chalice@2, i can stop a Lodestone from beating, when i resolve a Death's Shadow after 2 Swings and stabilze while i start to make pressure.

Some games i just win with Rit, Thoughtseize, Parasite, Death's Shadow, and race them all Day, even they throw a Karn in front. The only trouble are many Hellkites, but there is a way to stop them resolving these.

[Ryan]

These could be awful idea's, just putting it out there as food for thought.

Ideas for replacing leyline:

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Abyssal Persecutor / Black Fatty

I've been wanting to add Cabal Therapy to this deck for a while because it is such a great card and fits really well into this deck.  You almost always know half your opponents hand so it functionally is a Thoughtseize without having to pay 2 life.  It double's as a way to get rid of Abyssal Persecutor.  I have no tested this AT ALL so 6 ways to kill your own creature (2 edict, 3 cabal, 1 phyrexian tower) may not be enough).   

5 Equipment

Hexmage has first strike, if only she had a little more beef...Loxodon Warhammer, any Sword of ___ and ___, Darksteel Plate just off the top of my head.  You could also put these on confidant.

[vrl]

great post 2nd lawl! i was lurking in the dark waiting for more news. obeyline is necessary in this deck i wouldnt change it with anything. keep up the good work. i would like to say that i was really happy that you didnt include trinisphere in your last report but i am afraid that it was just a meta call... currently my side is:
1 pithing needle
2 hex parasite
1 snuff out
1 engineered explosives
1 mana crypt
3 null rod
2 ghost quarter
2 yixlid jailer
1 darkblast
1 sadistic sacrament

i am not sure about my 2 last options but i am very stubborn to exclude them. the thing that makes me sad is that ss doesnt win you the game vs oath (most decklists run 4 creatures +jace + key/vault/beat within). however, compare trini with ss. if you play the first one vs TPS doesnt win you the game by itself, but ss does. thus, i guess that vs TPS you mulligan to leyline. anyway i will post with a more detailed approach as soon as i can.

[2nd_lawl]

I would now be including darkblast in the sb for sure with the renewed presence of bob and the 4 revokers in the cat stax decks.

[vrl]

well written. waiting for your opinion about trini vs s. sacrament too. p.s. thoughts about phyrexian tower? i will start using it with the beginning of my new playtesting. i am just waiting for the shift of the meta after gencon!

[boggyb]

Hope this was helpful

Wow sir. . . your thinking on this deck is extremely keen. I'd love to watch you play it some time, or hear any tournament reports you might have. You're completely right in your frank assessment of the tutors vs. blue decks: use them wrong and you will usually die. And usually the 'correct' tutoring target is hidden behind three or four levels of thinking that are sometimes hard to see your way through. Just takes practice, and reflection, I suppose -- usually afterwards I'm able to reassess and see what I should've done when I inevitably lose . The same is true for the duresses, of course -- the reason the deck is so hard to play is that every important decision involves picking the correct One card out of Many to win you the game. Demonic Consultation is the pinnacle of this -- I've never really used it before but have quickly learned its power and incredibly high learning curve.

And you're right -- Obeyline is very fundamentally important to the deck, and playing it more I see its value more and more. The 'goyf angle has been kinda meh for me -- the deck likes to be razor sharp, always ready to leap into action or disruption, and stretching the manabase even just a little seems to slow it down considerably. I guess I'll try out the blue splash, but somehow I really doubt it'll be an improvement.

One sort of general question I have here is, the deck always starts off really fast -- however after two or three turns of duressing and getting your combo going, if your motion stalls somewhere, it's really hard to get it restarted again, unless you have a bob in play or topdeck a tutor or somethin. Is this your experience, early on at least? Is the problem just that I don't have much long-term vision with it yet, and am picking poor, overreaching tutor targets to start? I guess maybe the answer is just, "learn to pick your spots, dude!"

I have always been a control and/or aggro player so switching into the combo mindset has been tricky for me. Your advice and insight have been invaluable -- thanks!

[Random Noob]

There is one card in the 75 thats not quite clear to me, it is the Imerpial Seal. Isn't a 4th Dark Depths or another Edict more juice ? The only use where i like the seal, is when i start with -- Rit, Hexmage, Imperial Seal. It's to slow to tutor a solution, since you only draw it eot with Necro, or next Upkeep with Bob. Even if i spin off a will, i look through the grave and there is the Seal... and it's not that kind of a card i want, when i go off in will. Clear upside is, that it can find the will, or the Necro, but i am unsure if i would love to play this slow tutor, to get a Necro which feels sometimes slow too, since you get the cards end of turn, or when i have grabbed a will, which leves me with the seal in grave, which isn't that huge as i mentioned.

I am also not sold on the Crucible, since Gush Deck will make fun with you, while you try to lock them. 3 Mana for a Card isn't that much of a joke, if you compare the Crucible to Yawg Will or Necro. Crucible is the kind of card which i would put on scale with a Tendrils. You more likely will kill Gush Decks with a Tendrils, then Strip Lock them. The point where Crucible should be good against Mud, has it downsides in the high casting cost (3 can be very expensive against Mud), and that Mud can copy it via Metamorph. While people here around play Mud with Metalworker, they will smile when you go with, Ritual into Crucible.

Once someone in this Thread said, that a Null Rod on legs would pump the Deck, this vanilla goes with Phyrexian Revoker, which has its upsides, since you have much information from the 8 Duress/Ts. It has not the use a Pithing Needle has, not the use of a Null Rod. Since Null Rod can stop their "fast mana base" entirely, and you don't have to be a Jedi to do the right play, while stopping their combo Parts. Pithing Needle can't stop Mana abilities, but its huge upsides are protecting DD in front of an opposing Wasteland, or have a maindeck solution against Bazaars. So another downside of the Revoker is, that he IS a creature. It's no fun playing with these against Oath.

Another Toy i sleeved up for some Gold Fishs where Night's Whisper, with the Tendrils back in Mind, but it was somehow not that huge, as i would like Obeyline. Helm is just the thing this Deck wants, a 4 mana Bomb, that can win the game on the spot out of nowhere. Once i thought Sadistic Sacrament would be the same type of Bomb, but that is not the case. I nearly lost every game, where on Sadistic Sacrament should have won, even if i resolved a second Sad Sac.

I would like to share my list to get your advice.

--Mana--
1 Strip Mine
4 Dark Depths
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
9 Swamp
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
4 Dark Ritual
1 Lotus Petal
--Critter--
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Death's Shadow
4 Hex Parasite
--Pwnd--
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Yawgmoth's Will
--Disrupt--
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
3 Diabolic Edict
--Sideboard--
2 Yixlid Jailer
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
2 Dismember


I have no Seal, and no Rod or Peedle in my Main 60 (nor Md Obeyline), but more Aggressors which can build a small time Window, and expect you haven't opening Leyline, less Dead Cards, since in my meta you can be sure that a Golem will get you down to 10. Dismember seems as a must Play for me, in a meta where 12 Forgemaster and 10 Hellkites are running around.

I unfortunatly have no tournament data, since i had not much time to play.

Especially i ask for 2nd_lawls advice, if there is something on the wrong route and if you see a solution to fix those bugs.

Thanks

[vrl]

I am also not sold on the Crucible, since Gush Deck will make fun with you, while you try to lock them. 3 Mana for a Card isn't that much of a joke, if you compare the Crucible to Yawg Will or Necro. Crucible is the kind of card which i would put on scale with a Tendrils. You more likely will kill Gush Decks with a Tendrils, then Strip Lock them. The point where Crucible should be good against Mud, has it downsides in the high casting cost (3 can be very expensive against Mud), and that Mud can copy it via Metamorph. While people here around play Mud with Metalworker, they will smile when you go with, Ritual into Crucible.

Agreed.

@Random Noob i am not going to comment your list because you seek mainly 2nd lawl's advice. this is totally right as he is the creator of this deck and i really appreciate his opinion.

Once someone in this Thread said, that a Null Rod on legs would pump the Deck, this vanilla goes with Phyrexian Revoker

i believe that was me but check the thread that i will post in the card creation forum about my other suggestion that exists in the dark times primer.

I would now be including darkblast in the sb for sure with the renewed presence of bob and the 4 revokers in the cat stax decks.

@2nd_lawl: well, yesterday when i replied it was too late for me to discuss it more. now after two cups of coffee i can rephrase what i wanted to say.
i love darkblast its a permanent creature destruction as i see it (bobs, revokers, narcos- own bobs vs bridge from below, random x/2s of fish decks). i am not going to say that is youseful against slash panther as i believe we wont have the mana to play it twice vs MUD. So, for me this is a staple. my deepest concern is snuff out. previously, i have mentioned that maybe we can try dismember. this card costs 4 life as snuff out does plus 1 more mana which is obviously CRUCIAL vs MUD. vs fish thet are pretty much the same card. trying dismember should only be a good idea if we have an empty slot vs blue based decks because it can kill bobs and become a mini time walk vs blightsteel. so the pros of dismember are the choice to use it vs blue under the condition that we have an extra slot. just a thought.

in my humble opinion after seeing the shift of meta the cards that we may keep under control (to use or not to use) should be:
crucible of worlds
snuff out
2 emissary of despair

i would not cut imperial seal. we need tutors and this on is as cheap as it gets. except maybe spoils of the vault that in my suprise @Random Noob didnt mention.

A! a last thing. @2nd_lawl have you ever tried to pilot this deck with a transfoming sideboard? a decklist that has similar card choices with dark times i want to mention
owned by Forino (necro anyone?  ) exists in this link http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1475. ofcourse the goal is staying monoblack but have you ever considered it? it should be fun but i am not that good in developoing new strategies. my main concern is against what type of deck this strategy can serve better than the sideboards you have suggested (aside the element of suprise). just a shot in the dark.
Cheers!

[Random Noob]

i would not cut imperial seal. we need tutors and this on is as cheap as it gets. except maybe spoils of the vault that in my suprise @Random Noob didnt mention.

I tested yesterday Spoils of the Vault, while i was trying to figure out to play this list casualstyle like in Legacy... there is no way to put this Sui easily Legacy competive, i expect that there is no way. But it gave me Decks Space so that i could try some Cards, so i had 3 Spoils of the Vault in. You can just say them on a 4of in your Deck, with one of the 4 in your hand its getting to rsiky. And its not fun to jump out of the window with a Spoils if you try to play serious Vintage, so i guess its a no go.

To put some information in about the Death's Shadows, which will make the scepticle guys more sceptical, is that when a Duplicant comes down, it makes him an 13/13 Duplicant. After realizing this, i tried much stuff to solve this problem, including a Torpor Orb/Deradnought Sideboard. This is also senseless, since the Orb doesn't shut down Metamorph, so it does to less for its Deck Space. Last one i had was Horobi, Death's Wail, which is combo with the Hex Parasite, when you just remove 0 counters form a creature, which dies through Horobis ability. Note, same Parasite thing you can do with a Phantasmal Image, maybe its getting relevant in future.So the Horobi says if something gets targetet from Duplo, its still destroyed but leaves him with a 2/4.

So there was no final solution for the Duplicant/Death's Shadow Problem, the only plan you can drive is disrutping their base with additional Ghost Quarters and depending on the Mud List Null Rod can be a nekbreaker, which isn't the bad plan, even if you didn't side out the Parasites. Since they likelly say Chalcie one, after their Chalcie² got fixed through the Parasite preboard.

I see the Death's Shadow also mixed with the Emissary of Despair slots, which also has it downsides. See, what does Emissarry do against a Hellkite, for bigger mana cost than the Shadow? Its not much more juice than running into a Duplo. No matter which route you drive, you only can prevent it that they put such a problem into play, or Dismember in some spots. The nice thing about it is that you don't have to pay the life cause you just can pay mana if you want, more relvant against Fishes.

That for now... had no spleep that night and we have 14 somewhat pm... had to whatch the Champs ^^ (it was awesome!)... my GF won't be excited tonight haha xD.

EDIT//: Perhaps interesting, since i don't play Obeyline, my mana curve is much lower (somewhat like 1,2, but thats not a matter to run less lands, since Leyline costs more or less Zero, when it does what it should do, being plaed pregame for free), so i can play against Drains the longlong way, getting Double Bobs and make pressure many many Turns,. This came to my mind while thinking about what 2nd lawl said here.

While some games against blue decks(especially ones with bob) can turn into true grinds, this deck is not a control deck, the disruption is meant to be unbalancing, not game ending.  Trading card for card against a blue deck(unless you have confidant) going long is suicide in a deck filled with dark rituals, redundant leylines, and legendary lands etc.

Nomally its the shields Down moment 2nd lawl mentioned, when you replay duresses with will or go for lethal beatz.

[vrl]

in my humble opinion after seeing the shift of meta the cards that we may keep under control (to use or not to use) should be:
crucible of worlds
snuff out
2 emissary of despair

EDIT: Phyrexian Tower

sorry for messing up the thread i just noticed i didnt mention it.

[Random Noob]

A! a last thing. @2nd_lawl have you ever tried to pilot this deck with a transfoming sideboard? a decklist that has similar card choices with dark times i want to mention
owned by Forino (necro anyone?  ) exists in this link http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1475. ofcourse the goal is staying monoblack but have you ever considered it? it should be fun but i am not that good in developoing new strategies. my main concern is against what type of deck this strategy can serve better than the sideboards you have suggested (aside the element of suprise). just a shot in the dark.
Cheers!

Just while brainstorming again, i thought about Ad Nauseam since i was working on my Sb and beeing not happy with the Null Rods (problems with Parasite/Shadow and Null Rod postboard). You couldn't run Ad Nauseam with Leyline together, but i guess a Storm Maindeck would be better than a Storm Combo morphboard i guess.

I would happy if there would be something i could run instead of Null Rod, which would be boardet versus Decks that are faster, or hard to keep under controll. So i thought Sadistic Sacrament could be it, since it doesn't mess with my Parasites.. but i feel so uncomfortable with it.. I will test tonight some matches with it and see what is does. I thought of Chalice of the Void, but on the Draw it does to less. It's a card you don't want to board out but on the other hand you won't board it in.

I will try the Imperial Seal over the 4th Death's Shadow, because you likely have the Seal in hand then the Shadow wich does nothing. Maybe i will go down to 3 Dark Depths, but i like swining with Parasites.

[boggyb]

I've found that Fish matchups are pretty okay, unless they're RB Fish -- the presence of Lightning Bolt and Fire/Ice means Bob is much less effective (it's hard to keep him out for more than a few turns), and that it's much riskier to cast Hexmage without DD in your hand, which is too bad since First strike usually makes her a fantastic asset against Fish. Against RB I've had to play MUCH more aggressively (I only keep really fast hands) and side out Bob, unfortunately. That sound about right?

Fish is also tricky because one of our main disruption strategies, "card relevance" as 2nd_lawl called it, is pretty much turned off for Fish, since they don't rely on any one card, and since Duress is so much less effective. Also, Trinisphere is for sure the MVP vs. Fish, followed closely by Darkblast, Bitterblossom, and Engineered Plague. I've found against Fish, my SB is usually like

-1 Null Rod
-4 Duress

+1 Trinisphere
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Darkblast
+1 Bitterblossom
+1 Mana Crypt, Pithing Needle, or add'l bitterblossom, depending

and when it's RB with lightning bolt and fire/ice, sideboard strategy is something like

-1 Null Rod
-4 Duress
-4 Dark Confidant

+1 Trinisphere
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Darkblast
+2 Bitterblossom
+1 Mana Crypt
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Snuff out

Sometimes I'll side out helmline instead of duresses, if I feel like it'd be smarter to go all in for DD. Basically, you can switch the deck from a sort of 'sniping' disruption strategy into more of a 'black fish' kind of disruption strategy: full of cheap generic answers that can match Fish's more measured pace, in time to drop DD and swing for the win.

edit: one more thing -- another thing Blue would get you would be Lim-Dul's Vault. Such a sweet card for this deck -- has anyone tried it?

[boggyb]

Yeah the more I test splashed versions of the deck, the more I realize that they're just wastes of time. Aside from lim-dul's vault, which is EXCELLENT in this deck (if only it cost BB!), blue cards just slow your combo down, and doubly so since adding them in eliminates the helmline angle. Having blue is nice midgame, when your initial combo or disruption suite fizzles and you're rooting for a topdeck answer, but otherwise it's just a waste of time, really. Green is even more useless, too, as 2nd_lawl said. Nature's Claim is nice, but Snuff Out is a plenty sufficient replacement since Lodestone is far and away the most dangerous threat workshop has against us.

I wonder if people could discuss the place of Necropotence in this deck. . . I'm not an expert at playing with it, but I'm not so sure it's a better addition than Grim Tutor. Mainly the way I use it is, if my momentum stalls somewhere along the line, and I either topdeck necro or tutor for it when I have sufficient mana, I'll cast it and pay a buncha life to hope to basically go back to where I was at turn 0, with a fresh hand and a big ritual-enabled turn waiting for me. Problem is, that's chancy, and this deck doesn't like chancy stuff at all: if the cards I draw can't get me there (or will cost me too much life to cast), Necro just fizzles and leaves me in a waaay worse situation than I was before, with no draw and way less life, which is a problem against a lot of decks, and especially if you've got bob out. This happens a significant minority of the time, enough that I question its inclusion over Grim tutor, which is always a sure-shot (and a yawg target to boot). Thoughts? I'll play around with the GT version and let you know.

[2nd_lawl]

Ive never lost after resolving necropotence in the early game.  My guess is that you aren't being aggressive enough with it.    I generally necro for 7 or 9 first. All you need is a duress + some way to get the combo together. Which should be no problem in that many cards.  The necro lines get VERY complicated, but the raw power of the card is such that I would never cut it.

[boggyb]

Yeah that is certainly true -- early on it's a total beast, and if I have it in my opening hand, I always cast it for 8 life or so unless I also have T2-3 20/20, helmline, or striplock in hand. Casting it early improves your chances of winning to like 85-90% right there. However, its power attenuates really quickly after like turn 4-5, when using it might push you down to like 7-10 life and they've got a minor threat/you've got a bob out. In every midgame situation I always want: Yawg, Lotus (sometimes), a combo piece, a game-state-specific answer (darkblast, edict, snuff out, null rod, what have you), or a tutor to find one of these. If I get Necro, I'm only 60% happy.

I guess the real issue is that I just wish I had more tutors -- as you say, they're the cards most highly correlated with victory. In my testing I've found the last MD you posted to be quite optimal -- only other thing I might cut for GT would be -1 Edict, but 3-of feels right for that card and the slight mana curve increase is not exciting to me. I'll try it out.

[shrewarmies]

Hey  guys, been running the secondary list posted by 2nd Lawl but unfortunately have been moving countries recently so have had no real results to speak of other than testing against a deck here or there. What im looking at is the inclusion of Hex Parasite/ Death's shadow. What have been your experiences with this if you have been running a list with those cards. Where does its inclusion shine and where is it lacking?

I have looked back through the forum and it just popped into lists, have there been any results with the parasite/shadows inclusion.

Thanks

[Random Noob]

Hey  guys, been running the secondary list posted by 2nd Lawl but unfortunately have been moving countries recently so have had no real results to speak of other than testing against a deck here or there. What im looking at is the inclusion of Hex Parasite/ Death's shadow. What have been your experiences with this if you have been running a list with those cards. Where does its inclusion shine and where is it lacking?

I have looked back through the forum and it just popped into lists, have there been any results with the parasite/shadows inclusion.

Thanks

I am testing this since Hex Parasite was spoiled, but wasn't able to bring it to a 20 People Tournament. It's a fast Combo and most times Mud and even Drains can't race it, when dropping the 2 1st Turn, You have trouble while boarding with Null Rods, so i came up with running more Sad Sac. But i thought also about Thorn of Amethyst and Chalice of the Void.

Last card i found interesting with the Shadows was Flesh Reaver. But you don't have the Slots to include them, and rather i would run Imp Seal and another Edict.

Hope someone is taking the combo to a T8, then we could see where to go from there.

[boggyb]

Wondering if anyone could summarize their experiences with Hex Parasite (sans death's shadow, as that combo strikes me as seriously flawed) -- I've never gotten it to work right, and wonder how I'm playing it wrong. It's naturally way slower than an obeyline or hexmage win, and including it in your deck necessitates removing Obeyline altogether or removing cards that support or boost hexmage. So, I'm wondering: when do you side it in? Against what archetypes and sub-archetypes is it good? When is it bad? I haven't had a chance to use it much against shops, where it feels like it'd be best suited.

Also wonder if anyone's tried Plunge Into Darkness? Feels like another midgame beast (alongside or instead of grim tutor). I can imagine fizzling a Hexmage combo with a leyline out, then topdecking Plunge and thanking the stars as I sac my Hexmage and look through the top 15 cards of my deck for Helm or another tutor for it. Seems like it'd also be good in those endgame situations where you're one turn behind someone with a Goyf or Lodestone on you: you could sac your Confidant to buy yourself one more turn to make and deploy ML. It also pairs nicely with Vamp or Seal to get you a tutor target immediately. Of course it also kinda sucks in the early game -- but again, I'm interested in adding more midgame tutors. Thoughts?

[vrl]

@boggyb: hex is a great anti tool vs MUD (it can pass through lodestone and thorn). till now with the exception of engineered explosives if a MUD palyer sets a chalice at 2 in the first round or even later then it is probably a gg. this type of play is really dangerous and a MUD pilot who knows the way dark times plays will always keep a hand with chalice even if he hasnt got a sphere. with the printing of this card we have a great possibility dodging this crucial play as you can reset chalice. another huge application is vs tangle wire where you still can remove counters and the same is true about smokestack with the exception that the last doesnt see any play right now with the rise of cat stax/MUD sub archetype. remember reseting the counters at the end of their turns or at least at the beginning of your upkeep thus you probably may have some problems with the stack (as i do!). other cunning ways utilising hex vs MUD is blocking with the parasite a greater p/t creature and instantly removing counters from the above cards (or dark depths if you have it in play!) to give a suprise kill to a less skilled player or even going the beatdown route removing counters for marit lage. another thing (but less possible ) you can do is removing counters from chalice the time a player plays a card with less mana cost than the counters setted in chalice to instantly counter it (ex a MUD pilot plays a mana crypt and in response you remove two counters from a chalice set at 2 so you counter mana crypt). in my eyes this creature changed a lot the matchup vs MUD.
another archetype you should use this card is vs blue based decks that heavily rely on planeswalkers to end the game (jace, tezzerret). thus, vampire hexmage and pithing needle may serve this role as well.
other not very applicable uses (considering the meta) is vs decks with powder keg/ ratchet bomb (MUD), gemstone mine (dredge), engineered explosives (trinket mage blue based), aether vial  (aggro decks).
hope these help!

on a sidenote. plunge into darkness is a good card. i assume you mention it as a 1 of. a big problem of this card is the loss of life and the counter war. but it can be a great tool. i havent use it but i will definately give it a try. waiting for other opinions on this card too and some feedback maybe!

[Random Noob]

Wondering if anyone could summarize their experiences with Hex Parasite (sans death's shadow, as that combo strikes me as seriously flawed) -- I've never gotten it to work right, and wonder how I'm playing it wrong. It's naturally way slower than an obeyline or hexmage win, and including it in your deck necessitates removing Obeyline altogether or removing cards that support or boost hexmage. So, I'm wondering: when do you side it in? Against what archetypes and sub-archetypes is it good?

You have the Combo much faster online, the party cost only 1 each. When you dont have Leyline pregame, i would wonder if you get Helm and Leyline faster down than Shadow and Parasite.

I play it like that, suck me down to 12, suck me down to 6 and then go lethal. With no blockers on the other Side its one Turn  slower than the Token but resilent, since bounce doesn't destroy it like a token would be.

Against Fish i had some Matches where i just let him run in, did my buisness and than dropped 2 Shadows, one for blocking, one for swining. As i mentioned vs Mud, its easy to bring down a Shadow on Turn 3 against some swings from the Golem, which gives us time.

Without Obeyline the mana curve is very low, so when you suck down with Parasites, there is no matter to worry, when you do it right, since Bobs won't kill you too fast.

[boggyb]

another thing (but less possible ) you can do is removing counters from chalice the time a player plays a card with less mana cost than the counters setted in chalice to instantly counter it (ex a MUD pilot plays a mana crypt and in response you remove two counters from a chalice set at 2 so you counter mana crypt).

Thanks -- great summary. One thing though, I don't think this countering trick works since the Chalice trigger only fires when they cast the spell, no? It reads "whenever a player casts a spell with cmc equal to the number of charge counters on Chalice, counter it", so looks like it wouldn't fire if you respond to their casting with a parasite activation, no?

[vrl]

@boggyb you are probably right, this is just a thought i have never used it in a real game so thats were the "less possible" thing comes. maybe a rules guru may enlighten us and something about smokestack too!

@Random Noob
  sorry i cant answer your posts as i dont have any feedback using death' s shadow because i disagree with its use theoritically hands down. But this is just my opininon. i am looking forward for more ideas from you though, maybe we can finf another silver bullet or a different strategy for dark tinmes.
@2nd lawl what's your opinion about plunge into darkness? is it playable?
also, have you attented the TDG Summer Open? how did it go, any notable new uses or something else like a mini report? you are the mastermind of this deck waiting for news!

[boggyb]

A few thoughts here . . .
1. The Death's Shadow combo just strikes me as a lousy idea. One of the reasons Obeyline is so good in this deck is that it's vulnerable in a completely different way than the Hexmage combo is. Hexmage relies on a land and a creature, while Obeyline relies on an enchantment and an artifact, so cards that affect one don't affect the other -- i.e. when you're locked out of one combo, it's often for reasons that don't affect the other combo. And they're both super resilient and explosive: each requires you to cast only one spell, usually (occasionally you'll hardcast a leyline), and then resolve an activated ability. Obeyline usually kills instantly (one turn later if you didn't have enough mana to both cast and activate), and DD kills one turn later.

Death's Shadow relies on two spells, two creatures, and at least 3 turns (one for summoning sickness, and two to attack). And DS doesn't fly and isn't indestructible. So it's inherently less resilient and explosive than either of the other combos, and much more disruptable than Obeyline. On top of this, it requires more cards than Obeyline does (5 vs. 6 or 7 at least) -- and yet when you include it, you'll still need to include SB cards against dredge (see 2nd_lawl's analysis of Goyf above). In my opinion, Hex Parasite is valuable exclusively as a 2-of SB addition against shops, maybe jace, and maybe fish or somebody playing gemstone mines.

2. Another reason the DD combo is so good is that in order to disrupt it, your opponent has to react to you: with DD and Hexmage on the board, if your opponent doesn't want to lose, they have to have a disruptive card in hand and enough mana to cast it at all times, or a wasteland on board. In either case, having both cards out puts you at a tremendous tempo advantage, even if you don't feel comfortable resolving it.

[b47m4n]

I agree that Death's Shadow is a bit weak.  Here is an unpowered version of the deck I've been running recently with great success.  

Artifacts

1x Helm of Obedience
1x Lotus Petal
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
2x Hex Parasite

Creatures

4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Hexmage

Enchantments

4x Leyline of the Void
1x Necropotence

Land

1x Strip Mine
12x Swamp
3x Wasteland
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Dark Depths

Spells

1x Darkblast
1x Demonic Consultation
3x Diabolic Edict
1x Vampiric Tutor
4x Dark Ritual
1x Demonic Tutor
4x Duress
1x Grim Discovery
1x Sadistic Sacrament
3x Thoughtseize
1x Yawgmoth's Will

Sideboard:

3x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
3x Yixlid Jailer
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Engineered Plague
1x Darkblast
1x Echoing Decay
1x Ravenous Trap
3x Sadistic Sacrament

[boggyb]

Wonder if anyone's tried a variant like the one Omar Nieto used at Badalona on 5/29/10? He placed 5th. It's interesting, a sort of fish + dark depths idea that gets to take advantage of the excellent lim-dul's vault (but not ancestral recall?? Confused by its omission. He doesn't have lotus or jet either.) It's outdated but very interesting -- it takes greater advantage of the fact that Hexmage doubles an excellent fish-like creature. Also, the potential for Aether Vialing a Hexmage into play at eot for snap-activation is enticing. However it's quite slow -- its best turn 1 is aether vial or a fish, and it doesn't run rituals. I might update it by removing chalice, misdirection, and maybe daze, and would add in recall, rod, DT, maybe Imperial seal and spell pierce/misstep, and another lim-dul's vault. Would be good to get thoughtseize in there too somehow. . . Anyways, just wondering if anyone's tried it -- would be interested to know how counters fare as opposed to duresses vs. blue decks.

Maindeck (61):
Spells (39):

4 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dark Confidant
1 Demonic Consultation
3 Vampire Hexmage
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Martyr of Frost
2 Misdirection
4 Sage of Epityr
4 Voidmage Prodigy
1 Lim-Dul's Vault

Lands (22):

3 Dark Depths
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15):

3 Engineered Explosives
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Keeper of the Dead
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle

I've also been trying a green variant that uses MD Pernicious Deed, naturalize/deglamer, and Sylvan Library. Sylvan + fetches is a total beast for this deck but I'm not sure the penalty incurred by shifting towards nonbasic lands is worth it. Will keep y'all posted.