The Dark Times Primer

[xouman]

Today I have seen the new Liliana:

Liliana of the Veil   1bb
Planeswalker - Liliana    Mythic Rare
+1: Each player discards a card.
-2: Target player sacrifices a creature.
-6: Separate all permanents target player controls into two piles. That player sacrifices all permanents in the pile of his or her choice.
Illus. Steve Argyle #105/264   3


I think it fits nicely in this deck as a singleton, over an Edict. Nice defence against robots and finisher is good against mud, while being able to take some creatures if needed. First ability is good alongside confidant, and improves deck in the long run. What do you think?


@boggyb: I know Omar Nieto, I play in the same league that him. He had been playing wizards' decks at least for 3 years, adapting his deck to metagame, and getting some Tops in the way. He always play Vial and Voidmage, those are the real core of every of his decks. He did not play P9 cards because in LCV there is usually a prize for best unpowered deck (typically a Jace, Volcanic island, Tarmogoyf...), although he owns those P9 cards.

[boggyb]

Today I have seen the new Liliana:

Liliana of the Veil   1bb
Planeswalker - Liliana    Mythic Rare
+1: Each player discards a card.
-2: Target player sacrifices a creature.
-6: Separate all permanents target player controls into two piles. That player sacrifices all permanents in the pile of his or her choice.
Illus. Steve Argyle #105/264   3


I think it fits nicely in this deck as a singleton, over an Edict. Nice defence against robots and finisher is good against mud, while being able to take some creatures if needed. First ability is good alongside confidant, and improves deck in the long run. What do you think?

Holy crap this card is awesome. Before you'd posted this I had been meaning to write a little something about Diabolic Edict and why I think it's an inherently poor choice for this deck, though a necessary evil given Tinker, Oath, and Lodestone. Basically, Edict is a reactive card and this deck wants to be all-out proactive. Liliana is a perfect solution to this problem. At worst she's a 3-mana chainer's edict, and at best she's a mid-game monster. I've been testing her out as a 2- or even 3-of for the past week and have been extremely pleased with the results.

Some loose observations:

• Dark Times's "card relevance" curve is a pretty weird one. As 2nd_lawl mentioned before, going card-for-card long with blue decks is silly in a deck full of dark rituals, redundant leylines and legendary lands, extra lands (the deck easily works on 2-3 basic swamps), and cards whose values attenuate very rapidly past the first 4-5 turns (e.g. extra duresses, necro, crucible). Your basic mission is to disrupt them off their gameplan just enough to be able to survive long enough to assemble your combo, and then win by leading with disruption and exploding with one of your combos. If you don't win by the first 4-5 turns or so, you usually just have to find 1-2 important cards and resolve them for the win. Which is a bit of a longwinded build-up to say: Liliana's discard effect is almost always much worse for your opponents than it is for you, since your hand will almost never have more than 1-2 truly important cards in it in the mid-game, and you can usually comfortably discard the fluff.
• She is incredibly powerful when combined with Bob. With him out, your CA goes from 2:1 cards per turn to 1:0 cards per turn, which is a huge difference. Contrapositively, against blue decks, she's much less powerful without Bob out, as they can always rip a bomb or even just a draw spell and come right back, even on zero cards in hand.
• She synergizes nicely with yawg -- I won a couple of games with a Liliana -> huge yawg turn.
• She's great against decks that take advantage of card synergies, like Shops and Fish. Your opponent will constantly have to discard the 'weakest' cards in his hand or sacrifice the 'weakest' creatures he controls, when those cards are actually providing him great utility in boosting or protecting his more powerful cards -- e.g. noble hierarch, countermagic, extra lands, etc. It's great against FoW for this reason, too -- you often snag weak/redundant blue cards i.e. good pitch targets with it.
• Finally, a proactive Diabolic Edict! You can cast her before your opponent's goyf, tinker, or lodestone hits the table and force them to respond to your decisions, which is what this deck wants to be doing constantly. Watch out for cats, though, if you don't have a Hexmage out.
• She's a good first turn play. A hand with Rit, Liliana, and some action in it (Bob, a tutor, a combo piece) is a much more keepable hand than one with an Edict in it would be. Swamp -> Duress effect -> Lotus -> Liliana -> discard or even just Rit -> Liliana are terrific T1s I've found. You're leaning on their hand and potential threats right off the bat.
• Her finisher is quite good. The idea in making your piles should be to make them decide between two quite different gameplans, both of which you can beat -- e.g. one with a lot of resources but no threats, or one with threats but no resources.
• It's nice to be able to sacrifice your own Bob before he kills you -- I've done this several times and won where I definitely would not have otherwise (ie if she'd been an edict, I either would've already used the card earlier, or would've been torn between using it on myself or my opponent)

Basically I think she's strictly better than Edict, and especially in this deck which wants to be as proactive as possible. While she's only a little better than Edict vs Jace/Tezz/Gush-type blue decks (they tend to be able to recover from choose-and-discard effects pretty easily; her effect powers yawg; she's only good really for shutting down tinker against them and indeed allows them to focus all their attention on one line of play, which if you're ill-equipped to disrupt can mean quick death), she's much better than Edict vs. Shops and Fish, where the discard effect matters and enables repeat Edicts from you. I haven't played her against Oath, though seems like she'd be amazing there. I also haven't managed to play her against Dredge yet, where she's obviously worse than Edict; however Edict isn't very good against Dredge anyways, and since Dredge is this deck's best matchup, I think she's well worth it.

edit: Just some additional thoughts here on deck construction around Liliana...

I've been running her as a 2-of -- had her in there as a 3-of for a while but it wasn't really worth it. She's best in the midgame, unless you need some spot removal in which case Snuff Out works, or you can tutor for her (her 3 CMC means you can usually upkeep-vamp, DT, or Consult for her and cast her on the same turn in a pinch). So lately I've been using 2nd_lawl's last list, -3 Edict, +2 Liliana +1 Snuff Out, and it's been working really well. I might even consider taking out a Duress for something else (gasp!) given her discard ability, or replacing Snuff Out with Darkblast, since her repeatable-edict ability usually takes care of Snuff Out targets. Snuff Out is just so goddamned good against T1 Lodestone or Oath, though, I don't know if I could stomach removing it.

[arj]

Interesting deck. Got me back into vintage.

One question though. If my opponent has a wasteland, and I have the combo (Dark Depths + hexmage). I'm sort of stuck until I can draw a waste myself or another hexmage, right? Or wait for the counters to dissolve

[2nd_lawl]

Interesting deck. Got me back into vintage.

One question though. If my opponent has a wasteland, and I have the combo (Dark Depths + hexmage). I'm sort of stuck until I can draw a waste myself or another hexmage, right? Or wait for the counters to dissolve

.yes but your opp is more "stuck" than you. You are beating down for 2 while your opp cant tap his wasteland.  You are drawing to 4 wastes, strip, and 4 tutors, vs your opps 3 wastes and a strip. Another hexmage doesn't stop waste if your opponent knows what they are doing. If they are an idiot, go for it.

Also Liliana is happening.
That is all.

[Prospero]

Also Liliana is happening.

Oh Max, more cards to give white borders?

She does seem really strong in the deck.  How many do you want to run main?  3?  If so, what do you cut?

[Delha]

...Or wait for the counters to dissolve

Just to be clear, removing the counters one by one still runs into the same problem as using Hexmage to take them all off at once. In short, there's no way to get your Marit Lage token unless he misplays or you deal with the Wasteland.

[shrewarmies]

I have been using Lilliana of the Veil since it was spoiled, testing it to see where it fits in and have come up with a couple of points:

-You do NOT want to completely swap your Diabolic Edicts for Lilliana; the extra cost and more importantly, the instant speed on Edict means we have to keep at minimum one edict in MB. They somtimes do have tinker-timewalk and you do want your answer. I am Currently running a 2/1 split of Liliana/Edict but would still be ok with a 1/2 split. Consultation- Edict is still available to you if you dont completely swap for lilliana

-If you can pull a discard and power out Lilliana (e.g land, duress, mox, rit, lilliana), if you are playing against most blue decks, you gain alot of advantage, enough that you generally are quite safe from that point forward in the game. You can even slow down a bit as you have thoroughly messed up their game plan and can sit back on your discard from lilliana.

-Lilliana does not want to be used every turn, unlike JTMS, there will be turns where it is not strategically viable to activate her +1 or -2. That being said you will use her most turns she is out.

- The -6 = win 99% of the time but that is true with most T1 playable walkers. Don't expect it to go off though, most games have finished before she gets to 6-7. I have set off her ultimate 3 times and promptly won afterwards.

Anyone got anything else to add for Lilliana?

[Bosaapje]

I'm thinking of playing Lili in my DT. It's a damn good card and I think that she can be game winning on the long turn. If you and your opponent both draw nothing, you can win on the ultimate of her. Also it's a Diabolic Edict and.. last but not least, people can attack her, instead of you. Ofcourse, that's not always what you want, but if your low on life you'll be happy.

What do you think of this list:

Mana

1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg
9 Swamp

Draw/tutors

4 Dark Confidant
1 Bazaar of Bagdad
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Necro

Combo

4 Hexmage
3 Dark Depths

Protection

4 Duress
4 THoughtseize
4 Mental Misstep
3 Diabolic Edict (or 1 Liliana)

Random

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Grim Discovery
4 Null Rod




Sideboard

4 Emissary of Despair
4 Yixlid Hailer
4 Phyrexian REvoker
1 Engineered Plague
1 Darkblast
1 Sadistic Sacrament

Cheers,

[xouman]

I think liliana acts as bazaar in some way (taking away not needed cards). Same for tgz and duress, 8 copies + liliana seems too much against half of the field.

Btw, I'll play crucible. Liliana first ability is less painful, you can lock slow decks (that have advantage in a long game), and it's really useful against opponent crucible, while being another permanent for tangle. And oh, wait, you can recur dark depths if stripped :p

[2nd_lawl]

this is what i would play as of innistrad
4 Wasteland
3 Dark Depths
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Strip Mine
11 Swamp
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Necropotence
4 Dark Ritual
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Null Rod
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Yawgmoth's Will

SB:
2 Jailer
2 null rod
3 Mental Misstep
2 emissary of despair
2 ghost quarter
1 Pithing Needle
1 diabolic edict
1 snuff out
1 mana crypt

[Bosaapje]

@Xouman: I don't think that 4 SEize, 4 Duress and 1 Liliana is too much against half of the field. 8 Discards are just fine against any deck (O sure, discard your Golem/Oath/watever). I don't think I'm going to use Lili as much as a hardcore discarder, but more of a Diabolic Edict on a Stick.

I'm not sure if I'm going to play her once or twice. She is a bit slow against Staxx or decks like that, but she's also good in card negation. I think the best idea is to play her as  a one off, so you can tutor her, so she won't get stuck in your hand due to Spheres or that you have another Lili in your hand.

About Crucible, it's got a good synergy with Liliana, but isn't it a bit slow? Ofcourse, it's makes recurring Depths/Wasteland happen but it's 3 mana which I can put into a Hexmage/Duress or a Tutor to <insert threat>. But the only thing I can change in my list for something like Crucible is Grim Discovery. And yeah, well, that's kinda the same effect + you can get Bob or Hexmage back. And that all for just 2 mana (w00t). It's not as good as Crucible + Liliana but I think it's better to keep Disco in the deck than to put Crucible in.

So, maybe I'm going to put in another tutor, and then cut something, but Seal is just so expensive. It's like 300$ here in Holland, so I'm not sure about that one. Still, does somebody else got some recommendations on my deck?

[boggyb]

this is what i would play as of innistrad

SB:
2 Jailer
2 null rod
3 Mental Misstep
2 emissary of despair
2 ghost quarter
1 Pithing Needle
1 diabolic edict
1 snuff out
1 mana crypt

Word, I've been testing this MD list (w/ snuff out in place of edict) very happily for the past month. Mental Misstep is a terrific SB card for this deck. Question -- why edict over darkblast in the SB? Darkblast feels like a total winner with all those Lotus Cobras and Bobs and Revokers floating around nowadays. Also what about EE or Hex Parasite? This list loses outright to Chalice @ 2. And have you tried a third Liliana in the SB, over edict or snuff out? It's been working well for me.

[Stormanimagus]

this is what i would play as of innistrad
4 Wasteland
3 Dark Depths
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Strip Mine
11 Swamp
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Necropotence
4 Dark Ritual
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Null Rod
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Yawgmoth's Will

SB:
2 Jailer
2 null rod
3 Mental Misstep
2 emissary of despair
2 ghost quarter
1 Pithing Needle
1 diabolic edict
1 snuff out
1 mana crypt

This list seems quite solid, but I do think there is one blatantly obvious card that was recently printed that folks are forgetting in Dismember. Dismember would seem to solve a great number of the problems this deck used to have with Lodestone Golem. Am I wrong in thinking this? Dismember might make this deck TRULY viable vs. Shops in a real way. Max, do you like the idea of running dismembers? Even 3-4 in the SB?

-Storm

[boggyb]

Snuff Out is way better, I think, since it can be cast T1 before they get another resistor out. With shops, once they get a threat down, if you can't just win then the objective is to eliminate that threat asap.

p.s. Another argument for running Darkbast over Edict in the side -- Darkblast + Hexmage or even Bob against Lodestone actually works pretty well, so it's not a totally dead slot vs. shops.

[2nd_lawl]

dismember is the worst snuff out i have ever seen in my life. Cant cast it t1 after they play lodestone.

[johnnychr]

this is what i would play as of innistrad
4 Wasteland
3 Dark Depths
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Strip Mine
11 Swamp
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Necropotence
4 Dark Ritual
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Null Rod
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Yawgmoth's Will

SB:
2 Jailer
2 null rod
3 Mental Misstep
2 emissary of despair
2 ghost quarter
1 Pithing Needle
1 diabolic edict
1 snuff out
1 mana crypt

Some things I can't take my mind off with Lily, since it seems good in the deck.
How about taking advantage of her with cabal therapy and darkblast (if snapcaster mage becomes mainstream) ??
Any thoughts on that?

[shrewarmies]

I have found Darkblast (from SB, it does nothing to shops/Blue control) to be amazing, the ability to take out bob/cobra(/snapcaster mage?) on any given turn is very powerful.  I fully recommend using at least a singleton of darkblast in the SB, it is just too useful against certain decks.

Cabal therapy I would be worried about, we already have 3 different ways to kill our own Bob if he is killing us and opening hand you will almost always want a duress/thoughtsieze over the therapy. Being able to use it twice is certainly an upside but I don't think it wants to be used (as a 4 of) in the place of duress/thoughtseize. At max I would be testing 1-2 in place of duress. Its the turn 1 duress/thoughtseize that can really hit the opponent on a back foot when dealing with you (e.g. turn 2 marit lage) and Cabal therapy sometimes just misses. Do you name the force get wrecked by a drain. Its just too hit and miss in those early turns for me.

[Prospero]

Max, do you think something like Gitaxian Probe/Cabal Therapy is strong enough to warrant maindeck inclusion?

Have you played any games with Lilliana?  If so, how have they gone?

[vrl]

^
i am waiting for these answers too!
furthermore, Max what do you believe about darkblast as a sideboard slot?
does it deserve it with all these snapcasters or it really doesnt matter right now with the printing of Liliana?

[2nd_lawl]

Im Planeswalking the season, i have 9 weekends straight of GPs + PTQs. No Time for vintage.

[Random Noob]

Im Planeswalking the season, i have 9 weekends straight of GPs + PTQs. No Time for vintage.

hey just got banned from the dci here are some news... the null rod are the 3 empty slots against nothing

TTC - SSP

Schwarzstahlpanzer

1 Strip Mine
4 Dark Depths
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
9 Swamp
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Death's Shadow
4 Hex Parasite
1 Imperial Seal
1 Lotus Petal
4 Duress
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 3 Null Rod
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Mental Misstep
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Horobi, Death's Wail
SB: 1 Helm of Obedience

[Random Noob]

Im Planeswalking the season, i have 9 weekends straight of GPs + PTQs. No Time for vintage.

hey just got banned from the dci here are some jews...HITLER'STANK RESOLVED the null rod are the 3 empty slots against nothing

TTC - SSP

Schwarzstahlpanzer

1 Strip Mine
4 Dark Depths
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
9 Swamp
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Death's Shadow
4 Hex Parasite
1 Imperial Seal
1 Lotus Petal
4 Duress
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 3 Null Rod
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Mental Misstep
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Horobi, Death's Wail
SB: 1 Helm of Obedience

when mike should ask i am the guy from christmas wonderland

[shrewarmies]

On the 22nd October I went to the Eternal Masters Event at Dandynong, Australia playing for a Sapphire/Emerald. I was running a Dark Times list (Obviously) and managed an unfortunate 9th place. Facing Oath x2, Stax, Xmas Beatings and Blaxx, I saw a range of decks and it was a thoroughly enjoyable day. Having to run away to get to work I was not able to witness the top 8 but I am sure it was a blast.

The list I was running was a slightly Modified list due to budget constraints  and availability of some cards. The List I ran was:
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
10 Swamp
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Dark Depths
Mox Jet
Mox Diamond
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Diabolic Edict
Tendrils of Agony
Pithing Needle
Null Rod
Necropotence
Helm of Obedience
Cruicible of Worlds
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Yawgmoth's Will
Lotus Petal
Strip Mine

SIDEBOARD
2 Emissary of Despair
Snuff Out
Darkblast
Sadistic Sacrament
Engineered Explosives
Engineered Plague
Mindbreak Trap
Ravenous Trap
2 Yixlid Jailer
Diabolic Edict
3 Mental Misstep

A couple of notes on the deck.
Mox Diamond (sitting in for Lotus) should have been a Chrome Mox, The excess land hands came up rarely whereas the mono black nature of the deck should have lent itself to Chrome Mox. I would never run the Mox Diamond again in that slot.
The worst card in the deck on the day for me was Crucible of worlds, I was never happy to draw or flip it to a bob. I was using ghost quarters so my opinion will be biased but they were generally wastelands anyway against most decks.
Liliana was fantastic, doing what I wanted. She soaks damage that would normally come at me AND kills goyfs. Not sure whether the 2/1 split is correct but she definitely deserves a spot in the 60.

Over the 5 rounds I went 3-2

Round 1- Oath of Druids
Was playing against the TO and store owner. He was running quite a standard Oath deck with Emerakul and Blightsteel as targets.

Game 1- on the draw- G1 he goes nuts with T1 Oath and a 1/1 spirit on my side of the board. I drop permanents and manage to survive a turn but die to annihilator triggers. With no lands for a Edict.

Side in:
Sadistic Scarament
Diabolic Edict
Engineered Plague
Snuff Out

Side Out: (a bit hazy on this)
Leyline Of the Void
Cruicible
Tendrils
Pithing Needle

Game 2- Duress his oath and a turn 3 swing with Marit Lage.

Game 3- T1 Tinker Blightsteel I dont have the Removal.

0-1

Round 2 Oath on draw

Game 1- My Bob is met with his Oath and a 1/1 flyer.  A hexmage hits the table and I chump his blightsteel and am left on 9 poison. My 20/20 swings over the top for the win.

Siding, same as last match

Game 2- T1 Oath off the top and Emerakul swings for the win

Game 3- Marit Lage on board when he Oaths into Emerakul and rips Echoing Truth off the top. Game loss.

0-2

Round 3 Shops on the play.

Game 1 on the play- I am rolled over this game. I think he is on Dredge and keep a one lander with a Pithing Needle. I have gas but no other lands. I name Bazaar and he goes ancient tomb helm. I am locked in and never draw another land.

Side In:
2 Emissary of Despair
Snuff Out

Side Out: (Bit Hazy still)
Leyline of the Void
Tendrils
Thoughtseize

Game 2: Snuff Out the Forgemaster and Marit Lage Swings for 20

Game 3: Ancient Tomb causes him 16 damage this game. A Sphere of resistance is joined by 2 Phyrexian metamorphs and 2 Thorns. I manage to DT for a Snuff out. I am manually counting down my Dark Depths.  When he gets the Forgemaster, I Snuff out and land an Emissary. He Metamorphs the Emissary and I Edict and swing for the win.

1-2

Round 4 Xmas Beatings on the Draw

Game 1- He Root maze and smaller creatures are no match for a 20/20 Flyer.

(my sideboarding was horrible but I put in snuff outs and edicts)

Game 2 – He beats through everything I throw down and I lose quite quickly.

Game 3 -Liliana shines in this game. His board is goyf (4/5) magus and Phyrexian Revoker. Mine is 2 Bobs. He wages I won't block and swings with all 3. I trade and leave his board with only Goyf which Liliana finishes.  She then eats his hand until Marit Lage swings.

2/2

Round 5- Blax (Phyrexian Stax)

Game 1- Creatures beat for 6 then he stabalises and knocks me down to a turn one clock. I rip Tendrils off the top for 10 and my two bobs finish the job.

Game 2- Smokestack kills me stops me from playing any permanents while he sings with Revokers.

Game 3- I manage to get some threats down and eventually get a Marit Lage Token.

3-2

So I managed to go 3/2  overall which was good for my first sanctioned Vintage in quite a while. If you have any questions about my experience with the deck feel free to ask.

[2nd_lawl]

if there is alot of oath in your meta, try phyrexian tower, also you can side in EE against them to kill spirit tokens and moxes. Snuff out cant kill either blightsteel or emrakul, so im not a fan. I was going to tell you that mox diamond was horrible in a deck with 22 lands but you figured it out yourself .  I feel bad for people in no-proxy land( i actually have the whole deck, but i diddnt always). when i first created this deck imperial seal was 300 dollars cheaper than it is today. Thanks EDH.

[shrewarmies]

I was not expecting Oath to be a major player at this tournament. Because of the 0 proxy nature of this event I'm guessing Oath was popular because of it is relatively inexpensive for a blue based control deck. We usually have 10 proxy events so I was preparing for that meta mostly. Phyrexian Tower was in the original SB but I have not played against oath in months so that is why it was cut in favour of Darkblast.

 There were so many Snapcaster Mages as well as Bobs at this event that it would not have been a dead card if I had actually faced any of the Jace Control decks. Same with my extra Dredge hate. With the Release of Snapcaster I would seriously consider putting Darkblast in the 75 even as far as a 2 copies. I am at least keeping one for now.

[Troy_Costisick]

I was not expecting Oath to be a major player at this tournament. Because of the 0 proxy nature of this event I'm guessing Oath was popular because of it is relatively inexpensive for a blue based control deck. We usually have 10 proxy events so I was preparing for that meta mostly. Phyrexian Tower was in the original SB but I have not played against oath in months so that is why it was cut in favour of Darkblast.

 There were so many Snapcaster Mages as well as Bobs at this event that it would not have been a dead card if I had actually faced any of the Jace Control decks. Same with my extra Dredge hate. With the Release of Snapcaster I would seriously consider putting Darkblast in the 75 even as far as a 2 copies. I am at least keeping one for now.

I'd excpect some Magus of the Moon too.  There may not be much Power, but there will be lots of dual lands.

[vrl]

what about Porcelain Legionnaire?

decent defender for all mud creatures, he is not the beater emissary is but easier to be played (mana cost plus throrn/ golem), emissary right now can be the target of metamorph and then she is not that useful.

any comments?

[shrewarmies]

The eventual winner of the tournament was running Porcelain Legionnaire in the SB for the MUD match up (see "The Wheel 5.0" in the creative forums) and he seemed to be quite happy with them. I think I would rather stick with Emissary for a few reasons main reasons
A. He Flies, he is a guaranteed hit if they don't have metamorph and I think we need to be more aggressive in the Mud Match up because too many spheres really hampers our ability to perform. Plus if he hits the board, he can really turn the MUD player off playing too many artifacts. e.g. he is not going to cast that extra sphere or lodestone if it shortens his clock by a turn.
B) I want to save my health for Snuff out/Necropotence but that could just be me.
C) He is good against both MUD and STAX and other workshop based decks, they are all playing artifacts and almost none have defence for him (besides metamorph/Steel Hellkite). Porcelain Legionnaire is a very good defender against Lodestone/Panther MUD however I feel he is not as good against the workshop decks looking to play a longer resource based game e.g. STAX/ R Stax etc

[Stormanimagus]

This deck seems really well positioned if Dredge is hot in the field. If I were to run this deck tomorrow I'd make sure to keep those Leylines MD. Here's the list I would run:


Dark Times

Land (21):
3 Marsh Flats
8 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Strip Mine
3 Dark Depths

Artifacts (4):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Null Rod
1 Helm of Obedience

Enchantments (5):
1 Necropotence
4 Leyline of the Void

Planeswalkers (2):
2 Liliana of the Veil

Creatures (8):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage

Instants (9):
4 Dark Ritual
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Demonic Consultation

Sorceries (11):
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

SB
3 Null Rod
4 Mental Misstep
2 Yixlid Jailer
3 Snuff Out
1 Massacre
1 Perish
1 Virtue’s Ruin


Mental Misstep is really nice to have against Gush decks from the SB but it is also there to protect your leylines game 2 vs. Dredge. Good against Ritual decks and just in general.

Snuff out is the best answer I can think of to Lodestone Golem.

Massacre, Perish, and Virtue's Ruin are tutorable vs. Noble Fish.

Rod is obviously for traditional powered Tezz decks or possibly for Metalworker decks.

Thoughts?

-Storm

[Daenyth]

Im Planeswalking the season, i have 9 weekends straight of GPs + PTQs. No Time for vintage.

hey just got banned from the dci here are some news... the null rod are the 3 empty slots against nothing

TTC - SSP

Schwarzstahlpanzer

1 Strip Mine
4 Dark Depths
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
9 Swamp
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Death's Shadow
4 Hex Parasite
1 Imperial Seal
1 Lotus Petal
4 Duress
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vampiric Tutor
SB: 3 Null Rod
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Mental Misstep
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Horobi, Death's Wail
SB: 1 Helm of Obedience

When do you use Horobi? Is he just there for the Hex Parasite synergy?