The Dark Times Primer

[Troy_Costisick]

This list just took Top8 in a 36 man tournament in Switzerland:

Land

 4 Wasteland
 1 Strip Mine
 4 Dark Depths
 3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
 9 Swamp

 Creature

 4 Dark Confidant
 4 Vampire Hexmage
 4 Hex Parasite
 4 Death's Shadow

 Others

 1 Black Lotus
 1 Mox Jet
 4 Dark Ritual
 4 Thoughtseize
 4 Mental Misstep
 3 Diabolic Edict
 1 Imperial Seal
 1 Demonic Tutor
 1 Vampiric Tutor
 1 Demonic Consultation
 1 Yawgmoth's Will
 1 Necropotence

 Sideboard

 4 Leyline of the Void
 2 Dismember
 2 Yixlid Jailer
 4 Surgical Extraction
 3 Null Rod

Parasite combo is here.  Helm of the Void is not.  Interesting.

Peace,

-Troy

[Bosaapje]

Interesting move to include Parasite and Death's Shadow. Didn't expect that Shadow would enter Dark Times. Hex Parasite is also good against Planeswalkers so it's more natural to me that you would include Parasite than Shadow. But is it worth to take Null Rod to the sideboard to include Hex Parasite/Death's Shadow? Rod slows down lots of decks and sometimes completely stops them. It's an auto include in my Dark Times list and I dropped it pretty often at the Dutch Open Vintage Championships and most of the times my opponents sighed when I dropped it. So, is it worth it to move Null Rod to the Sideboard?

This is my list from the Dutch Championship last month. I became 22nd of 48 people (I thought it was 48).

Land

 4 Wasteland
 1 Strip Mine
 3 Dark Depths
 3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
 10 Swamp

Creatures

 4 Dark Confidant
 4 Vampire Hexmage

Other

 4 Dark Ritual
 4 Thoughtseize
 4 Duress
 4 Null Rod
 3 Bitterblossom
 2 Diabolic Edict
 1 Liliana of the Veil
 1 Necropotence
 1 Demonic Tutor
 1 Vampiric Tutor
 1 Demonic Consulation
 1 Imperial Seal
 1 Yawgmoth's Will
 1 Crucible of Worlds
 1 Lotus Petal

Sideboard

 4 Leyline of the Void
 4 Mental Misstep
 4 Emissairy of Despair
 1 Helm of Obedience
 1 Phyrexian Tower
 1 Sadistic Sacrament
 
What do you think of this list? I went 3-3 and lost from Dredge, Gush and another deck. Dunno anymore. Liliana was a real monster for my opponents. I activated her ultimate twice and also used her as a Diabolic Edict, so she's staying in. She's really really good. Null Rod was also a big deal for my opponents, so he's staying in. I removed the Missteps and moved them sideboard because they aren't doing a thing against MUD, so I wanted to have Bitterblossom so I can chump the Golems and have a better sac outlet. I can always put them mainboard if the meta is going to be combo decks. So far I saw lot's of Gush decks but not enough to move the Missteps mainboard. Gush can play around Misstep if they want to (Gush was still 5 mana the last time I checked). So, give your comments please

Cheers,

Maarten


 

[Joblin Velder]

I'm seeing a number of lists running 3 Urborgs. That seems really high to me. Has it been a problem at any point for any of you?

[nataz]

I'm more interested on peoples opinion of MM in the maindeck.

[Bosaapje]

I think that Misstep would be a good card for in a combo heavy meta. If it is a shop heavy meta, just forget about the Missteps and go for Bitterblossom or even maybe Emissary of Despair (tricky, but if you can resolve it turn 1 you win from Shops). So I think it's a meta call.

[reaperbong]

Can you describe more the purpose and intent behind the Bitterblossoms in the MD? how did it work out for you in real play? i long since stopped playing them but still have my foil playset.

[Bosaapje]

Bitterblossom can chump block Lodestone Golems, tap tokens for Tangle Wire and can be used as permanent for Smokestack. You can also use it with Gate To Phyrexia in the SB against Shop decks so you can destroy there game plan.

It's also a good card against control match ups. Drop it and you've got a token machine that kicks your opponents ass.

My intent was that Mental Misstep sucks against Shop decks (barely no CMC1 spells) and Blossom is good against Shop decks (see my reasons above) so that's why I moved Blossom MB. I also like the syngergy between Gate to Phyrexia and Bitterblossom to destroy artifacts.

I hope I gave you enough information . If not, give a shout.

Edit: I'm on my phone, so if my answes are bit short you know why.

[nineisnoone]

Interesting move to include Parasite and Death's Shadow. Didn't expect that Shadow would enter Dark Times. Hex Parasite is also good against Planeswalkers so it's more natural to me that you would include Parasite than Shadow. But is it worth to take Null Rod to the sideboard to include Hex Parasite/Death's Shadow? Rod slows down lots of decks and sometimes completely stops them. It's an auto include in my Dark Times list and I dropped it pretty often at the Dutch Open Vintage Championships and most of the times my opponents sighed when I dropped it. So, is it worth it to move Null Rod to the Sideboard?

This is my list from the Dutch Championship last month. I became 22nd of 48 people (I thought it was 48).

Land

 4 Wasteland
 1 Strip Mine
 3 Dark Depths
 3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
 10 Swamp

Creatures

 4 Dark Confidant
 4 Vampire Hexmage

Other

 4 Dark Ritual
 4 Thoughtseize
 4 Duress
 4 Null Rod
 3 Bitterblossom
 2 Diabolic Edict
 1 Liliana of the Veil
 1 Necropotence
 1 Demonic Tutor
 1 Vampiric Tutor
 1 Demonic Consulation
 1 Imperial Seal
 1 Yawgmoth's Will
 1 Crucible of Worlds
 1 Lotus Petal

Sideboard

 4 Leyline of the Void
 4 Mental Misstep
 4 Emissairy of Despair
 1 Helm of Obedience
 1 Phyrexian Tower
 1 Sadistic Sacrament
 
What do you think of this list? I went 3-3 and lost from Dredge, Gush and another deck. Dunno anymore. Liliana was a real monster for my opponents. I activated her ultimate twice and also used her as a Diabolic Edict, so she's staying in. She's really really good. Null Rod was also a big deal for my opponents, so he's staying in. I removed the Missteps and moved them sideboard because they aren't doing a thing against MUD, so I wanted to have Bitterblossom so I can chump the Golems and have a better sac outlet. I can always put them mainboard if the meta is going to be combo decks. So far I saw lot's of Gush decks but not enough to move the Missteps mainboard. Gush can play around Misstep if they want to (Gush was still 5 mana the last time I checked). So, give your comments please

Cheers,

Maarten

Hymn to Tourach has always been a favorite of mine, and I actually think it's in a good position for a return. It gives you card advantage, can't be misstepped, and the really isn't much in the way of burst card drawing anymore. Many decks tend to be land light these days, so hitting their land and then dropping Null Rod is pretty amazing on turn 1.

Also, you will need more hate to reliably beat dredge. Run Jailer. It also is good against SCM.

Lotus Petal but no Mox Jet or Black Lotus???

Has Necro been good to you? It just doesn't seem like it fits, but maybe it's just that strong, dunno.

I'm not sold on Bitterblossom, but that sounds like a very meta specific call, so that's cool. Personally, I would rather run more Crucibles as that helps you win and address their lock pieces. (Emissary of Despair? Really) Also, not sure why you are going with no fetches even if you stay all black it makes your crucibles much better. b/c of magus of the moon?

Also, i'd rather go with Helm-Combo than Null Rod, as Leyline hoses dredge, is good against some Shop variants, and cuts out many early victory paths against combo, while presenting your own. This would leave fish as being the weak link, but that's easier to deal wtih imo. Rod isn't what it used to be. It's still good, but I think it's not as good in here as it is in other decks.

[boggyb]

What do you think of this list? I went 3-3 and lost from Dredge, Gush and another deck. Dunno anymore. Liliana was a real monster for my opponents. I activated her ultimate twice and also used her as a Diabolic Edict, so she's staying in. She's really really good. Null Rod was also a big deal for my opponents, so he's staying in. I removed the Missteps and moved them sideboard because they aren't doing a thing against MUD, so I wanted to have Bitterblossom so I can chump the Golems and have a better sac outlet. I can always put them mainboard if the meta is going to be combo decks. So far I saw lot's of Gush decks but not enough to move the Missteps mainboard. Gush can play around Misstep if they want to (Gush was still 5 mana the last time I checked). So, give your comments please

Cheers,

Maarten

In my opinion Dark Times has a pretty solid 'core' of cards that shouldn't be disturbed without tossing it off balance. They are:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Null Rod
1 Crucible of Worlds

1 Necropotence
1 Yawg
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
11 Swamp
2 Urborg
3 Dark Depths
4 Wasteland
1 Strip mine


There might be 4 or so of these cards a bit up for grabs -- you can remove a duress, a swamp (in place of maybe a ghost quarter from the SB), maybe Crucible (though I think it's definitely the right choice for this deck), or a Liliana or two, but in general you run into problems if you remove these. The deck is a smoothly running machine, sure, but only just barely. Make a mistake or throw the thing off balance and you lose

That's 54 cards, maybe 52 if you're willing to cheat out a few of em. So now you need to pick only 21-23 more cards to fill it out. Your pool is:

bazaars:
4 Leyline + 1 Helm
2 Jailer
1 Pithing Needle

fish:
1 Darkblast
1 Liliana
1 Perish
1 Massacre
1 Engineered Plague

shops:
2 Snuff Out
2 Emissary of Despair / 2 Bitterblossom
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Mana Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Hex Parasite (should be used only as a counter to chalice @ 2 and jace)

blue decks:
3 Null Rod (extras)
4 Mental Misstep
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Trinisphere
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Grim Tutor/Beseech The Queen/Plunge Into Darkness, as you like
1 Karakas

Some I've been tinkering with that might belong on this list but which I'm unsure about:
Phyrexian Revoker
Phyrexian Metamorph
Tendrils of Agony
Surgical Extraction/Extirpate
Bitter Ordeal
Chalice of the Void
Cabal Therapy
Gate to Phyrexia

Any I'm missing? I think this might be exhaustive for the current meta.

The trick is to just pick your remaining cards based on what you think you'll see. I've grouped them above according to the deck strategies they principally answer (obviously there's a lot of overlap), and then ordered them within those groups approximately according to priority (eg if you expect bazaar decks, pick leyline first, then jailer, etc.). So, generally your remaining decklist and sideboard will consist of some combination of cards from the first 0-3 entries of each of these groups.

So that's like 40-50 cards, from which you need to choose 21-23. Nowadays I think 4 Leyline, 2 Jailer, 2-3 Rod, and 3-4 Misstep are absolutely necessary (Misstep is best at just countering opposing Missteps, since it thwarts most of your key plays for free ). Beyond that, 1-2 Snuff Out, 1-2 Edict, and either Emissary or Bitterblossom (according to whether you expect more MUD or Stax, respectively) are good answers to Shops, your worst matchup. Also, Ghost Quarter and Darkblast are very strong currently, and you really want an answer to Chalice @ 2, in my opinion, somewhere in there. That's just how I'd build it, but, you know your meta better than I do -- tweak accordingly

So anyway. To respond to your post

• You should not be losing to dredge. One of the best reasons to run Dark Times is that all dredge matchups are essentially a bye for it. Even if you don't run leylines in the main, you have so many cards to combat it (wastelands, hexmages to shut off bridges, missteps from the side, and a super fast combo that they have zero ways of stopping), that you really should not lose G2/3.
• If you're seeing a lot of Gush, run Trinisphere. Seems a bit counterintuitive at first but test a few matches with it and you'll find yourself tutoring for it early.
• Isn't 3 Bitterblossom a bit much? I've never wanted that many.
• Yeah I agree with Joblin Velder -- 3 Urborg is too many. The deck's curve is so low that you don't usually need to turn on your Dark Depthses too desperately, and since it's legendary and has unfortunate splash benefit for blue decks, it's annoying to draw late. I think 2 is right.
• 4 Emissary! Dang that's a lot. You only ever want one of him, and since he's hard to cast under spheres after turn 1 (when ritual is useful), I think he's best left to being tutored for. He's also real vulnerable to Tangle Wire.

Hymn to Tourach has always been a favorite of mine, and I actually think it's in a good position for a return. It gives you card advantage, can't be misstepped, and the really isn't much in the way of burst card drawing anymore. Many decks tend to be land light these days, so hitting their land and then dropping Null Rod is pretty amazing on turn 1.

Also, you will need more hate to reliably beat dredge. Run Jailer. It also is good against SCM.

Lotus Petal but no Mox Jet or Black Lotus???

Has Necro been good to you? It just doesn't seem like it fits, but maybe it's just that strong, dunno.

I'm not sold on Bitterblossom, but that sounds like a very meta specific call, so that's cool. Personally, I would rather run more Crucibles as that helps you win and address their lock pieces. (Emissary of Despair? Really) Also, not sure why you are going with no fetches even if you stay all black it makes your crucibles much better. b/c of magus of the moon?

Also, i'd rather go with Helm-Combo than Null Rod, as Leyline hoses dredge, is good against some Shop variants, and cuts out many early victory paths against combo, while presenting your own. This would leave fish as being the weak link, but that's easier to deal wtih imo. Rod isn't what it used to be. It's still good, but I think it's not as good in here as it is in other decks.

Please read the thread, Max's posts in particular -- a lot of these questions were answered earlier. In brief: Hymn doesn't work since you want targeted removal; fetches are no good since you hurt yourself a lot, deck thinning is irrelevant, and Demonic Consultation is great for finding a swamp if you're light on land; and Necro is just too powerful to delete -- an early Necro just wins the game.

[nineisnoone]

Can't take the hit off a fetch land? Ehh, I've seen more life destroying decks run fetches than this one. And it's not just about deck-thinning; it also works well with Crucible and when you are trying to hard cast Leyline or something. But whatever, it's not a huge change either way.

As far as wanting targetted removal goes, I never said to cut Duress or Thoughtseize. Clearly, the cards don't do the same thing as they are different cards. You basically have zero mid-range plays to keep them down (generally my issue with the deck). Vess is the best you have, but thats very symmetric. (I like her don't get me wrong though). Hymn provides you with that and synergizes with the deck. Duress/Thoughtseize puts the opponent into park, Hymn empties out their gas tank.

also, dark times can lose to dredge. not sure what you are talking about. most dredge decks run 4X chain of vapor in the SB to bounce your token and every dredge deck will have a few fliers (narcomoeba) to block Marge. they could also just dread return a Fatesticher and tap it down every turn. not to mention, MM as a main deck option for dredge is very legit. it's far from a bye. it's just overall better for you than for others since you can hard cast Leyline easily.

Trinsphere seems terrible when all your spells are cheap. I would rather run Chains.

[boggyb]

Can't take the hit off a fetch land? Ehh, I've seen more life destroying decks run fetches than this one. And it's not just about deck-thinning; it also works well with Crucible and when you are trying to hard cast Leyline or something. But whatever, it's not a huge change either way.

As far as wanting targetted removal goes, I never said to cut Duress or Thoughtseize. Clearly, the cards don't do the same thing as they are different cards. You basically have zero mid-range plays to keep them down (generally my issue with the deck). Vess is the best you have, but thats very symmetric. (I like her don't get me wrong though). Hymn provides you with that and synergizes with the deck. Duress/Thoughtseize puts the opponent into park, Hymn empties out their gas tank.

also, dark times can lose to dredge. not sure what you are talking about. most dredge decks run 4X chain of vapor in the SB to bounce your token and every dredge deck will have a few fliers (narcomoeba) to block Marge. they could also just dread return a Fatesticher and tap it down every turn. not to mention, MM as a main deck option for dredge is very legit. it's far from a bye. it's just overall better for you than for others since you can hard cast Leyline easily.

Trinsphere seems terrible when all your spells are cheap. I would rather run Chains.

Have you tried trinisphere? It's terrific. Your combo's main weakness vs blue decks is that they can counter your hexmage. If you have trinisphere, they have to decide each turn between developing their board and holding up mana to counter your dude, and it counters their mana accellerants.

Thing about Hymn makes sense but there are just other cards that are more effective/necessary than it out there, and since you NEED targeted removal like duress/thoughtseize, it just doesn't make sense to run them also -- don't really have the deck space.

Also yes, of course you CAN lose to Dredge but you have so many weapons against them that it really should be a 90% matchwin against them. You stretch them really thin and can race pretty good.

[nineisnoone]

trinisphere doesn't counter anything... it just makes it more expensive, just like it make your stuff more expensive. considering the fact that you need to be proactive, whereas they need to be reactive this sounds like a pretty bad card. playing 3 to duress the opponent is extremely weak. but you still have to make those types of plays because otherwise, they can still just echoing truth your creature (or whatever).

lol. well, agree to disagree on hymn, but your arguments are somewhat flimsy. but it's more just a personal preference for the card really. i've been trying to find a home for the card anyways.

as far as Dredge goes... unless you are maindecking Leyline... I disagree. you don't really offer any explanations either...  I really don't see an answer to dread return on fatesticher or leaving a narcos to block. sure, you can mise a victory, but so can dredge. your main deck hate is not sufficient. sacing your own Hex (in a non-combo situation hypothetically) slows you down too, and really doesn't effect the Dredge player as much as it used to (fatesticher & bloodghast).

post board is whatever... but 90%? you need to tell me something more than you are fast, before i will agree to that.

[boggyb]

trinisphere doesn't counter anything... it just makes it more expensive, just like it make your stuff more expensive. considering the fact that you need to be proactive, whereas they need to be reactive this sounds like a pretty bad card. playing 3 to duress the opponent is extremely weak. but you still have to make those types of plays because otherwise, they can still just echoing truth your creature (or whatever).

Like I said it's a bit counterintuitive but try it out and I think you'll agree. The fact that they need to be reactive makes it good against them -- the problem with being reactive is that you need to leave mana up. Force of Will and Misstep get around this; that's why they're good. They let you develop your game state without losing tempo. Trinisphere counteracts this.

[Bosaapje]

I've read al your messages and I will post again, but on monday because I've got a massage course right now (yay for mobile internet) and typing on your mobile phone isn't that handy if you want to write properly and to read other posts (atleast, not on my Nokia N900, it's just too damn small). So cheers and have fun!

[Random Noob]

I'm more interested on peoples opinion of MM in the maindeck.

Its better than Duress in the Vacuum and makes points against faster Ritual Based Storm Combo Decks. It prevents from two big Problems in the List, namely Repeal on Token and Swords tp Plowshares on multiple Death's Shadow, since you have 2 in play, a single Swords kills both of them.

You dont have to waste your 1st Turn with sorcery Speed Duress and can play more aggressivly, cause in the Deck around Shadows you likely want Effects that say lifeloss. It feels that it makes your Deck 1 Turn faster.

And at last it counters opponents Mental Missteps, which likely hoses the list.


greetings

P.s.: I am not banned from the DCI, i just drank to much Jägermeister ^^

[Bosaapje]

Hymn to Tourach has always been a favorite of mine, and I actually think it's in a good position for a return. It gives you card advantage, can't be misstepped, and the really isn't much in the way of burst card drawing anymore. Many decks tend to be land light these days, so hitting their land and then dropping Null Rod is pretty amazing on turn 1.

Also, you will need more hate to reliably beat dredge. Run Jailer. It also is good against SCM.

Lotus Petal but no Mox Jet or Black Lotus???

Has Necro been good to you? It just doesn't seem like it fits, but maybe it's just that strong, dunno.

I'm not sold on Bitterblossom, but that sounds like a very meta specific call, so that's cool. Personally, I would rather run more Crucibles as that helps you win and address their lock pieces. (Emissary of Despair? Really) Also, not sure why you are going with no fetches even if you stay all black it makes your crucibles much better. b/c of magus of the moon?

Also, i'd rather go with Helm-Combo than Null Rod, as Leyline hoses dredge, is good against some Shop variants, and cuts out many early victory paths against combo, while presenting your own. This would leave fish as being the weak link, but that's easier to deal wtih imo. Rod isn't what it used to be. It's still good, but I think it's not as good in here as it is in other decks.
   

@Nineisnoone:

Yep, no Power. That's because I don't own them and because I wanted to go for the best non powered deck (I could have borrowed the cards).
Necro is just insane. It's an auto include. Don't argue the card, it's restricted for a reason.
The reason that I don't run Leyline mainboard is for two reasons. First it's 4 life with Dark Confidant en probably a dead topdeck.
Second of all, I play Null Rod as a four off (so no combo with helm) and maybe Null Rod isn't as good as it used to be there, but here it's doing it's job and I think it's just worse then Null Rod against Storm Combo, Shops and basically almost anything except Dredge. Ofcourse, they can't win on Will anymore in Storm Combo but they've got others ways to win. I just don't think Leyline is better than Null Rod mainboard.

Also, I don't wanna go like this: Null Rod, go. Next turn, topdeck Helm (with Leyline in play) and fail.

Why no fetches? Well, that's because I didn't think of fetch and I think it's not nessecary. I can try them but maybe it's going to be a little problem with the lifeloss. Not sure about that though, I would have to try it. It's not that I'm scared of Magus of the Moon or such things.



I've tried Trinisphere in my sideboard for a while but I'm not really impressered by Sphere in this deck. Of course, it's a good card against Storm Combo but I think that it ruins your game plan too much. I play 8 discard spells, 4 Null Rod and 4 Mental Misstep SB to win from Storm Combo. Think that's enough and also, you just don't want to be that slow. Everything in your deck is 1, 2 or 3 mana and you don't want to be that slow.

I'm thinking of playing Parasite and Death's Shadow. I like the idea. Only Null Rod would make Hex Parasite useless, so maybe just do something like this:

-3 Null Rod
-1 Something

+4 Hex Parasite

And that I have one Null Rod as tutor target. I'm going to update my list and I'll give it to you guys here soon.

Cheers,

[Yukon Cornelius]

Although I agree with Hymn to Tourach being a good card, it is only going to strengthen your already good match ups and weaken your bad ones. This is my current list that I top eight-ed with last weekend. It handled aggro and a Mindslaver deck fine and had a tough match up against Shops and Gro.
Main:

Land:

2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Dark Depths
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
10 Swamp

Creatures:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage

Artifacts:

1 Null Rod
1 Crucible of the Worlds
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Pithing Needle

Enchantments:

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Necropotence

Sorcery:

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
1 Mind Twist
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Imperial Seal
1 Sadistic Sacrament

Instants:

1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Dark Ritual

Planeswalkers:

1 Liliana of the Veil



Side:

3 Mental Misstep
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Perish
2 Emissary of Despair
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Dismember
1 Ghost Quarter


If I had to play tomorrow the changes I would be interested in making would be to change the Dismembers to Snuff Outs.

[Bibendum]

Do you think moving forward a second Liliana of the Veil can take the place of something else or is one enough with a toolbox of tutors?

[Yukon Cornelius]

Honestly I ran the two Lilianas but the main problem I found is they aren't instant speed like the Diabolic Edicts are. Two felt heavy in the deck but one with the tutors works just fine. I feel like Liliana is a buff but not an alternate win condition unto herself., and that's where I think people might become confused. She's no Jace for sure but she's helpful in the long run.

[Bosaapje]

I agree with Yukon. She isn't a win con, she just helps you to win. And she does that job very well.

What do you think of this list? Just made it.

Main:

Land:

3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Dark Depths
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
9 Swamp

Creatures:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Hex Parasite
4 Death's Shadow (still not sure about that one)

Artifacts:

1 Null Rod
1 Crucible of the Worlds
1 Lotus Petal

Enchantments:

1 Necropotence

Sorcery:

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Imperial Seal

Instants:

1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation

Planeswalkers:

1 Liliana of the Veil



Side:

4 Mental Misstep
1 Sadistic Sacrament
4 Leyline of the void
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Emissary of Despair
1 Phyrexian Tower
 

I'm not sure about the Death's Shadows. I still have to try them but I think that they can be good occasionally. Maybe I can cut to 2 Urborg and go to 10 Swamps (cause I don't have any power yet) or one Peedle MB as tutor target.

Feel free to comment

[Yukon Cornelius]

I understand the appeal of Hex Parasite and Death's Shadow but honestly in the long run I think it's weak. Running 4 Vampire Hexmages planeswalkers are not a big deal. I sacrifice Hexmage on Jace all day, not an issue at all, there's more. I think you're letting the appeal of a possible 1 mana cost 10/10 cloud your judgement. There are far more reliable plays to be made, I would stick to the Leyline/Helm combo over the possibility of an extra creature any day.

[shrewarmies]

@ Bosaapje, You would be fine with cutting down to the 2 Urborgs and 10 Swamps. You never want to be stuck with an extra Urborg and with three I feel you are pushing that maybe a bit too much. The  T1 urborg duress T2 DD+ hexmage will come but I am not sure the increased likeliness of this is worth an opening hand of Urborg x2.

 I am not a fan of the Hex Parasite/Death's Shadow because it means that an opponent only needs creature removal to get rid of all your threats while leyline/void means they need artefact/enchantment removal as well as creature removal to interact with you completely, also with your high number of duress effects that makes your job a lot easier if you have to only keep them 1 threat rather than all of them.  Not to mention Leyline v Dredge is one of the main reasons I feel to play this deck, the ability to negate of of dredges biggest advantage (G1 win) is a show stopper when you open G1 Leyline and they just fold. I also don't like the DS/HP because I have seen a lot of MD Lightning bolts recently and as your t3 kill with that combo requires you be on 3 life it is just too risky. You would be fine also with cutting down on the Emmisary of Despairs', They are very good against MUD but again you don't need to draw too many. I ran two in an earlier deck List I posted and I still believe that to be the correct number.

I ran the main deck needle and found it to be quite good. Not spectacular but very nice to be able to tutor for it when needed (I am looking at you Jace)

[Random Noob]

I'm not sure about the Death's Shadows. I still have to try them but I think that they can be good occasionally. Maybe I can cut to 2 Urborg and go to 10 Swamps (cause I don't have any power yet) or one Peedle MB as tutor target.

Feel free to comment

Suck down to 12, then to 6 if there are hasty cats around, and finally to 2. If he has  bolts go down to 4 and swing twice.


greetings Noob (;

[Bosaapje]

@Shrewarmies: I'm going to do that. I often see people playing it like 2/10 so it won't be that bad

I agree with you about the Death's Shadow. That's what I thought about them when I was thinking of Shadow. With Leyline, you've got more ways to kill so the opponent needs more kind of removal to slow you down. That's why I'm going -4 Shadow, +4 Leyline MB. I've to fit in a Helm somewhere and I'm also going to try to fit in a Peedle somewhere in the MB, but I'm not sure about what I have to remove for Peedle. Anyone any suggestions what to remove?

I changed my list and it brings me to this:


Main:

Land:

2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Dark Depths
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
10 Swamp

Creatures:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Hex Parasite

Artifacts:

1 Null Rod
1 Crucible of the Worlds
1 Lotus Petal
1 Helm of Obedience

Enchantments:

1 Necropotence
4 Leyline

Sorcery:

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Imperial Seal

Instants:

1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation

Planeswalkers:

1 Liliana of the Veil



Side:

4 Mental Misstep
1 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Emissary of Despair
1 Phyrexian Tower

Well, here's the list. As you would see, with and I removed one Hex Parasite. Don't really know what else to remove, so think this the best. I couldn't fit Peedle in, so he's going SB untill I find a place mainboard.

You would be fine also with cutting down on the Emmisary of Despairs', They are very good against MUD but again you don't need to draw too many. I ran two in an earlier deck List I posted and I still believe that to be the correct number.

(from Shrewarmies)

Wait, what? What I want to do against Shops (since I don't run Gate to Phyrexia + Blossom) is to drop Emmisary of Despair as early as possible. So that's why I run 4. The MU against Shops sucks with this deck, so why would you run it less than 4 times?

Cheers,

[shrewarmies]

I found that emmisaries are really the nail in the coffin, for the MUD Matchup. I found that what i wanted against the MUD match ups were snuff outs and edict. Fighting Lodestone/Panther is your biggest worry and I found that you generally wanted to keep their board threat less rather than have a beater.Especially as the more aggro builds mean that your Emmisary wont be beating as much as it would against the old school MUD decks. You can afford to play a waiting game till you gave the mana to cast the emmisary and then win on the back of him. Your only problem should be metamorph on your emmisary. I have not tested it extensively but a 2/2 split between Emmisary and Porcelain Leigonaire seems much better in the MUD Match up as Leigonaire kills ALL the MUD players threats. Not saying that I will keep that split but I am currently having some sucess with that.

Its really a gamble about what MUD decks you are going to be facing. The faster aggro decks you want your removal and less emissaries to use as the nails in the coffin. The slower grindier MUD decks (e.g. smokestack/cruicible/tangle/karn) you want to up the amount of Emissaries because that early emissary can be an absolute killer.

TL:DNR: Keep removal in against MUD, if you remove their early threats you can play a waiting game.

[Random Noob]

 4 Wasteland
 1 Strip Mine
 3 Dark Depths
 3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
 10 Swamp

Creatures

 4 Dark Confidant
 4 Vampire Hexmage

Other

 4 Dark Ritual
 4 Thoughtseize
 4 Duress
 4 Null Rod
 3 Bitterblossom
 2 Diabolic Edict
 1 Liliana of the Veil
 1 Necropotence
 1 Demonic Tutor
 1 Vampiric Tutor
 1 Demonic Consulation
 1 Imperial Seal
 1 Yawgmoth's Will
 1 Crucible of Worlds
 1 Lotus Petal

Sideboard

 4 Leyline of the Void
 4 Mental Misstep
 4 Emissairy of Despair
 1 Helm of Obedience
 1 Phyrexian Tower
 1 Sadistic Sacrament
 
What do you think of this list?
Maarten

Hymn to Tourach has always been a favorite of mine, and I actually think it's in a good position for a return. It gives you card advantage, can't be misstepped, and the really isn't much in the way of burst card drawing anymore. Many decks tend to be land light these days, so hitting their land and then dropping Null Rod is pretty amazing on turn 1
Has Necro been good to you? It just doesn't seem like it fits, but maybe it's just that strong, dunno.

I'm not sold on Bitterblossom, but that sounds like a very meta specific call, so that's cool.

on my handyright now:

@Bitterblossom: It's cool, but for this purpose i run Shadows to have a wall for Golems and kill him with it.when its grown out. It does nothing against Hellkites, which sucks a bit.

@Hymn to Tourach: The.oldschool.flair of a 2-1 trade doesnt.hit anymore. After the Hymn your.blue Opponent will say Gush.and you hit everything but the juice. It should be nice against Mud on the play, but this happens unlikely.

@Necro: Since i play since the Day Parasite and Shadow i would love to see.Necro unrestrict and go nutz with Shadows.

[Yukon Cornelius]

How do we feel about Sensei's Divining Top? I'm looking to fit it in since it works well with Dark Confidant.

[boggyb]

I don't like it.

Don't work with Rod.
You don't run fetches.
Not proactive.

[Yukon Cornelius]

It works great with Dark Confidant. I agree with the Null Rod but I don't view Null Rod as an instant win.

[shrewarmies]

But the top is not an instant win either. sure it works with bob bit the benefits just don't outweigh the downsides.

you are not trying to avoid forces/high casting costs. You even lower your highest cost to 3 is some games.
As others have said,null rod negates it creating a completely dead card and you don't want to relegate it to a SB slot/s just for the matchups you don't want rod.
You have plenty of T1 plays. the top is sub par to a duress effect
finally, more of a personal thing but if you top and see nothing its going to hurt more due to almost no way to shuffle