Three Black Fatties - The Concept, the Deck?

[MaximumCDawg]

I've got a deck concept to get input on.  First, a few observations.

The first observation is that last few sets have produced a couple of really aggressively-costed black fatties.  We got Phylactery Lich and Abyssal Persectuor, joining Phyrexian Negator as black dudes who like Dark Ritual and have 2 more power than they cost to cast.  I notice that MUD has been having alot of success on the back of fast, aggressive creatures backed up by sphere effects; does black now have enough creatures to try fatties plus disruption?

The other observation is that the Three Black Fatties have some interesting synergies.  Both Negator and Lich can be unearthed for a measly B by Unearth, a little black card that has seen little play recently.  Also, both Lich and Persecutor play extreemly well with Drop of Honey or Pophyry Nodes (you can target lich if no other critter is in play forever; nodes is a way to sac the Persecutor). 

So here's the general concept of a deck:

Three Black Fatties

Creatures (14)
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Phylactery Lich
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Dark Confidant

Disruption (14)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 Chain of Smog
2 Diabolic Edict

Tutor Suite (2)
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

Other (5)
3 Unearth
2 Sensei's Top

Mana (25)
4 Dark Ritual
5 Sol/Crypt/Vault/Lotus/Jet
2 Darksteel Citadel
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
6 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
4 Pophyry Nodes (anti-fish, gobbos, oath)
4 Leyline of the Void (dredge, TPS)
3 Ylixid Jailer (dredge)
4 Leyline of Sanctity (oath, TPS)

The idea would be to consistently run out a 5/5 on turn 1 or 2, and put pressure on the opponent with discard effects to disrupt them long enough to beat to victory; pretty standard suiblack.  But there are a few twists here.  You get Chain of Smog, the most efficient discard effect in the game (2 cards for 1B) and if they bounce it back, chuck a Lich or Negator and Unearth it back.  Out of the board you get Pophyry Nodes, which is a great way to lock out fish until they draw enchantment removal.  (Of course, since you're running liches, they'll already be boarding in artifact/enchantment hate, but hey.) 

Thoughts, comments?  I really want Lich and Persecutor to find a home somewhere.

[madmanmike25]

I too have been trying to get Phylactery Lich in a sui black shell.  Funny how I completely forgot about Chalice!  Maybe I can offer some help on this decklist.

I would probably run 2 Abyssal Persecutors at most, but test away and see if that 4cc is worth it.  If so, you can add Cabal Therapy as a sacrifice outlet.

Get rid of Chain of Smog and Unearths imo.  You should be running 4 Thoughtseizes.  Also go up on the Edict count and/or consider Gatekeeper of Malakir. 

Consider Bitterblossom.  It works lovely with Negator and that flying really comes in handy these days.  Works nice with Phyrexian Tower too.

Not sold on Darksteel Citadels either.  I get why they are in though.

Good luck,
Mike

[TopSecret]

I think Tombstalker is pretty good if you can support it.

Null Rod is another potential artifact for the Lich. If you're not playing Null Rod, Vault of Whispers could replace some Swamps. Of course, then you'd be weaker to Null Rod and Wasteland.

Pithing Needle would probably be pretty good in this deck. Engineered Explosives is another possibility since you're playing all the moxen.

Also, if you want to go all in and are playing a bunch of Artifacts for the Lich, you can also play Salvage Titan for the lol factor.

[MaximumCDawg]

Get rid of Chain of Smog and Unearths imo. 

Why, too cute?

[serracollector]

I personally would play Flesh Reave or Grinning Demon over Negator.  With jace out and about Lightning Bolts and Fire/Ice are making a huge comeback, making negator no good IMO.

Claws of Gix is a 0 CC artifact that can sac Persecutor or a grinning demon if your life total is dropping.  Also works for the Lich as an artifact for the counter.

I would play Mind twist over Chain,  especially if playing Crypt and Mana vault alongside your 4 rituals.  If they do Misdirect it back at you, as you said, Unearth.

[madmanmike25]

Pretty much.  This sort of deck needs action cards, not cards that *might* come in handy....or you have to spend 2 mana to cycle it.  I don't think in terms of a decks speed that you can afford that here.  But then again I prefer cards that have face value and don't rely on conditions in order for them to be useful.

To be honest when I played Sui black way back in the day I loved Unearth because there were so many creatures around that I could trade, then spend B to get mine back.  If you are in an aggro heavy environment then go for it.

If you feel it's more than something "cute" and integral to the deck then why not run 4 of each?

[Darkenslight]

Could you drop the Tower for a Miren, the Moaning Well?  Or is the  from Tower more important?

[Delha]

If you end up keeping Unearth (which I agree is too cute), I'd consider Smallpox. It's a way to turn on Unearth, hits Tinker bots or non-Iona fatties, plus collateral damage against Golems, Juggies, Fishy bears, etc. The real Pox is probably too pricey.

[MaximumCDawg]

If you end up keeping Unearth (which I agree is too cute), I'd consider Smallpox. It's a way to turn on Unearth, hits Tinker bots or non-Iona fatties, plus collateral damage against Golems, Juggies, Fishy bears, etc. The real Pox is probably too pricey.

Ooh, I like that.  I was actually trying out Delerium Skiens for awhile, but I can't rely on my topdecks being better.  Smallpox is a good idea though.  Helps get around the BBB required for Lich to boot!

[ArtOvWar]

I would cut white. Or run STP, Disenchant etc. Splashing white for nodes is BAD.
Also i miss Cabal Therapy.
Therapy kills ur persecutor even if they counter ur therapy.
Also Bitterblossom --> Negator.

[MaximumCDawg]

Alright, so I tossed together list and did some playtesting.  I nixed the persecutor and white plan, and went mono-black beats.

4 Phylactery Lich
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Dark Confidant
2 Hypnotic Specter

4 Smallpox
4 Duress
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Dark Ritual

4 Unearth

2 Divining Top
1 Vampiric Tutor

2 Vault of Whispers
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Rin
8 Swawp

I playtested around eight games against BU Bomberman and went 3 - 5 or something (but one loss was the enemy unwisely decking himself), and here's what I found.

The deck actually works really well, in the sense that it can land and recur huge black creatures quickly.  However, I was NOT reliably able to get out a 5/5 on turn 1.  This dissapointed me.  The deck's biggest problem was that, even if I got an advantage, I found myself unable to seal the deal more often than not.

The deck's best plays were either classic mana denial (first turn chalice at zero followed with a wasteland and smallpox) or smallpox followed by unearths on whatever you sacrificed and discarded.  The deck really hates StP, since it leaves Unearth dead in the water.

Phylactery Lich has a suprising advantage I did not think about: it is resistent to Sower of Temptation.  If they Sower your Lich, the Lich's owner changes, and the "you don't control an artifact with a phylactery counter" trigger goes off, killing the lich.  Convienatly, ready to be unearthed!

Since I was not reliably able to put my enemy on a 4 turn clock on turn 1 as I hoped, this deck should probably be geared more towards traditional black disruption (more wastelands, null rod, thoughtseize, sinkholes, perhaps) with the intent of following up with creatures after denying them a manabase.  Either that, or find other good artifacts to replace the accelleration mana and make this a legacy deck.  I dunno.

[arctic79]

Is there a home for Aether Vial?  It seems this type of deck would benefit from turn one vial to open up an early creature while leaving mana open for disruption.

Regarding Unearth, personally I love the card and use it frequently in Legacy, but I think that it would be coming out every post board.  If you were running Therapy I could see Unearth being pretty savvy tech.

Have you considered Imp's Mischief as Super Secret Tech to highjack an opponent's spell.  It is a little better then people credit it for.

[Djinn]

Hypnotic Specter is too slow in this day and age.  I wouldn't play it.  I also would play Null Rod instead of Chalice, and then cut Mana Vault and Mana Crypt.  I know you want to keep your artifact count up, so perhaps a Pithing Needle and Crucible in their places.  I have no experience testing your deck at all but by looks I suggest:

3 Painter's Servant
3 Phyrexian Negator
3 Phylactery Lich
4 Dark Confidant


3 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Bitterblossom
1 Necropotence
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Consultation

3 Null Rod
2 Grindstone
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds

1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6 Swamp


Now you have an alternate wincon to beats with the servant/grindstone combo and 3 solid tutors to accompany it.  I added Yawgmoth's so you can replay disruption and artifacts that may have found their way into the graveyard.  Also by my count you have 15 artifacts(not including either lotus) so that should leave a pretty high chance of always having one for the Lich.  I don't see how it would be possible to play Negator without Bitterblossom. Negator also doubles as an outlet to maybe destroy your own Null Rod if you want to shift your strategy mid game from beats to decking. as far as the SB, I'd start with:


4 Leyline of the Void
2 Emissary of Despair
1 Trinisphere


Let me know what you think.


EDIT: Also, I can't think of it off the top of my head and I'm about to go to sleep so I will research it tomorrow, but maybe equipment would fit well in this deck as well.  Probably to aid Phyrexian to be unblockable or just the standard Sword of blank and blank or umezewas.

[MaximumCDawg]

Null rod + grindstone seems pretty bad.

I did have some success a few months ago with a BR fish that used a transformative sideboard; it went from beats with null rod into a painter/stone, helm/leyline combo deck.  Actually won a small sanctioned event!  Then was crushed the following week.

So yea, I could see running null rods maindeck or grindstone main deck, but not both.

[Djinn]

Null rod + grindstone seems pretty bad.

I did have some success a few months ago with a BR fish that used a transformative sideboard; it went from beats with null rod into a painter/stone, helm/leyline combo deck.  Actually won a small sanctioned event!  Then was crushed the following week.

So yea, I could see running null rods maindeck or grindstone main deck, but not both.

Ya,  I know its not the best.  Maybe 3 chalices instead would be better, obvious target would be chalice at 0 but chalice at 1 is definitely not the play and chalice at 2 doesn't seem that great either.  I wouldn't include 3 chalices just to chalice at 0.  Maybe add another painter's, another grindstone, and a Sol Ring or something.  Maybe vault+key?

[Djinn]

What do you guys think the minimum number of artifacts to run would be in order to support the lich?  I think that if we want to build a deck to include him, thats the place to begin.