0 land belcher

[twbird18]

I'm planning on playing in my first vintage tournament soon.  Since, I frequently play Belcher in Legacy I am planning to convert my deck for this tournament.  However, I can't find any current decklists so I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts on a revised Belcher decklist.  This is my current take, but obviously having never played Vintage I am hoping for some good advice (besides playing a deck I am not familiar with).

4x Goblin Welder
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall

4x Gutteral Response
4x Manamorphose
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Empty the Warrens
4x Goblin Charbelcher
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Timetwister
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Sol Ring
1x Tinker
1x Mox Jet
4x Chrome Mox
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Memory Jar
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Mox Pearl
1x Channel

Thanks for the help

[GrandpaBelcher]

That decklist looks pretty standard.   I wrote a primer on the deck a while back, it's now located here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37138.0.   Nothing much has changed since then.  You have Pyretic Rituals where I would have Street Wraiths.  I think the Wraiths make a difference in the long run, as a 56-card deck versus a 60-card one, but that would be hard to prove.

If you're looking for a more significant departure from the Legacy list, here's a more recent version I played and a tournament report: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38716.

RUGBurn 4-Color, 0-Land Belcher

4x Goblin Charbelcher
1x Timetwister
1x Windfall
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Memory Jar
1x Necropotence
1x Tinker
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Demonic Consultation

4x Street Wraith
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Tinder Wall
4x Goblin Welder
1x Wild Cantor

4x Manamorphose
4x Rite of Flame
4x Dark Ritual
4x Chrome Mox
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
1x Lion’s Eye Diamond
1x Lotus Petal
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Channel

Sideboard
4x Empty the Warrens
3x Pyroblast
3x Tormod’s Crypt
2x Cabal Ritual
1x Inkwell Leviathan
1x Gaea’s Blessing
1x Vampiric Tutor

This is slightly faster, more broken, but overall less stable.  It's hard to recommend one version over the other in a particular metagame because they're very similar.  In either case, your goal is to ignore what your opponent is playing and win the game, so whether you do that with Goblin tokens or Tutors is more likely a matter of preference.  I would probably play the RUGBurn version (with Tutors) in a more Workshop-heavy metagame, and an RGu version like yours against blue decks and Jaces.

The sideboard in both cases is sort of a crapshoot.  Let me think if I can come up with something reasonable to suggest.  Usually I sideboard very little, so beyond a few cards it doesn't matter what's in there.

[meadbert]

2 Taiga
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
4 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Memory Jar
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Goblin Welder
4 Empty The Warrens
1 Wheel Of Fortune
2 Gamble
4 Rite Of Flame
4 Seething Song
2 Sylvan Library
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
1 Channel
4 Land Grant
sideboard
4 Jester's Cap
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Shattering Spree
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Xantid Swarm


I have that list lying around which is similar to yours.
The trouble I have with Manamorphose and Street Wraith is that you do not know what you will draw with them which makes mulliganing decisions harder.

Warrens/Welder are solid now that Spell Pierce shows up so often.  Grim Monolith only makes sense if you are running Welder.

Gamble has some nice interactions with Welder and LED.  Basically you can use Gamble as an Entomb with Welder out.
Also, sometimes you have 2 bombs and need one more mana so you just Gamble for Lotus and hope you do not lose it.
Sylvan Library is solid since you can draw 4 extra cards over two turns to really reload quickly.  I have tried various combinations of Libraries and Gambles.
4 Gambles is fine, but you rarely want 2.  Library you definitely do not want 2 of.  Library and Gamble are decent together since Library gets more cards so you are more likely to keep what you Gamble for.  Also Gamble is a shuffle effect if you put cards back.  That is why I used the 2/2 split.

This list might predate Nature's Claim so that could make sense in place of Shattering Spree.  Perhaps more Tormod's Crypt would make sense.

FYI, Lochinvar is pretty much THE expect at Belcher right now since he still brings it to tournaments occasionally.

[madmanmike25]

Belcher sure is a fun deck, but I see way to many Shop decks to even consider running it.  My first thought is that I hope you don't see many Shop decks at your first vintage tournament.....or if you do, you win the die roll.  First turn Lodestone/Sphere/Thorn/Chalice/Rod and your chances of winning pretty much vanish.

Meadbert, I'm really surprised you don't like Manamorphose.  I would go out on a limb and say I think that any Belcher list that doesn't run this card is not optimal.  It's such a great utility card and allows you to splash colors with ease.  I don't buy into the whole 56 or 52 (with Wraith) card deck concept.  That's not why it's in there.  If you run Empty the Warrens, its FREE storm and in this type of deck it typically draws you into a mana source which many times nets you an additional storm count.  Many times I've used this just to get the GG needed for Channel.  Too good not to run.

I too have tried Sylvan Library.  My thoughts were to make a more stable maindeck Belcher, then go turbo mode if I knew I was on the play against non-Fow decks.  Library is a solid turn 1 play if you don't have the combo.

I'm also surprised no one runs Living Wish at least as a singleton.  Great lands you can get are Mishras Workshop(+1 mana), Ancient Tomb(free storm or useful to activate Belcher next turn), Tolarian Academy, and City of Brass just off the top of my head.  Good creatures you can get are Goblin Welder, Tin Street Hooligan, Tarmogoyf (alt win-con), and Xantid Swarm to name a few.

Out of curiousity, if you run Tinker and Twister why not run Ancestral Recall?  If you have the other 2 blue cards in hand you obviously cast the spell that draws the most cards, but 1 mana for 3 cards is some good.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I actually don't much like Manamorphose either.  I often feel like it's a bottleneck and a liability.  Don't get me wrong, there's nothing better for that slot right now, but I could think of a few possible things I'd rather have there.

Generally, I'm pretty happy to play against Shop decks.  Nothing like going up against something that can't counter your plays and has to make a relevant play on turn one.  Plus, with Spirit Guides helping you get through Spheres, and Lodestones and Thorns being ineffective agaisnt other mana sources, your chances even on the draw aren't horrible.  Usually you just play a little slower, drop mana sources on turn one and play Belcher on turn two or three.  I do recommend highly winning the die roll, though.

Living Wish is still really good, but there are plenty of times when it isn't "game winning good."  If they ever print a really good, cheap, green or red finisher with some attached disruption or protection, Living Wish definitely makes the cut.  Giant Solifuge is almost there, but not quite.  I've never been able to win with Tarmogoyf, and only a couple of times has Storm Entity gotten there.

This ties in a little with my feelings about Twister and Ancestral Recall.  Drawing seven cards for three mana is so much better than drawing three cards for one mana in this deck.  A new full hand is likely to contain all of the cards you need to win -- mana, threats, and protection -- in the right proportions.  Drawing three cards is fairly likely to get you three mana, or three mana and a protection spell.  That's fine if you just need mana to win, but in a lot of cases, just having Ancestral be a mana spell would be just as effective.  Unfortunately, you can't rely on Ancestral to get you what you need when you need it.  It can't take the place of a REAL threat.

[twbird18]

Thanks for all the responses.  I understand about playing against shop type decks, but Belcher is my favorite deck.  I have given a U/W version of Bomberman to my husband to try out...I could play Goblins, but feel if nothing else Belcher will be more fun.

So, what are your thoughts on running 4x Gutteral Response mainboard?  Would it be better off as 4x Red Elemental Blast  to get rid of Jace, 4x Autumn Veil to force 2 counter's possibly or as 4 more mana producing spells? Would there be something to say for running more heavily blue (say ponder/preordain for more storm count)?

I expect I will sideboard for faster play against decks I want to race and maybe some form of artifact/enchantment hate, not sure yet. I will try to post a prelimanary SB list tonight.  Not certain what the meta will be like as there aren't many vintage events in the area.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Red Elemental Blast is probably fine.  However, I think that in most cases the spells you're worried about will be counterspells and will be answerable by Guttural Response.  Hopefully, by the time Jace would hit play, you've already won.

Honestly, if you've played a lot of Legacy Belcher, most of your assumptions and strategies will hold true except that you'll have to account for more Force of Wills in the metagame.