Uba Stax Question

[Bibendum]

So I have recently been playing Espresso Stax and finding it fantastic but in the past week or so i was playing Uba Stax online with a similar list to Espresso with a few cuts to make room for 3 masks. Seems to be playing real well, it negates a decent amount of hate that decks have if they cant be used at the proper times. My question was, Is there some glaring error im missing for why this deck fell out of favor? I know you have a shot of cutting off your own supply real early on but I feel with everything being 4 copies in most stax decks were not cutting off vital supplies in the way that its possible to cut off restricted stuff for blue.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Uba Mask as a card got significantly worse when Brainstorm was restricted.  Brainstorming into Uba Mask was a mixed proposition since you would "draw" three cards into the Mask that you then had access to for the rest of the turn, but you had to put two cards from your hand (if you had any in your hand) back on top of your library.  Short-term card advantage, yes.  Long-term card advantage, no.

It might be better, now, against Big Jace.  Although being able to Brainstorm every turn for free into Uba Mask is probably pretty good.

[Bibendum]

My thoughts were jace being around so much, while the free brainstorm each turn is still good, this is a way to negate some of the card advantage. It does not hit bob which sucks but I figure ill mess around with it and see.

[meadbert]

I have tested this.  Jace makes Uba Mask even worse because drawing 3 cards a turn is nutty, but depending on your build, 4cc sorcery speed spells should be tough for your opponent to resolve and it they can play them you probably already losing.
The Jace effect is not that large since in close games they should not be able to play Jace anyway.

[Bibendum]

That makes a decent amount of sense, I just enjoy the fact that once mask hits outside of whats in there hand at the time, No FoW's or Drains are making in the hand off the draws on there turns. I see how its not a powerful enough tool compared to what else workshops can bring to the table though.

[Leooooh]

A long time ago, when Brainstorm wasn't restricted, i saw this deck....It is a kind of MUD with those Uba Masks on it.
Take a look

3 Ancient Tomb
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Workshop
2 Rishadan Port
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
   
4 Lodestone Golem
 
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance
4Tangle Wire
4 horn of Amethyst
3 Uba Mask
1 Trinisphere
   
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring


I made some changes from the older list, since it only played 3 Karns as the only killers. I might give a try for this deck, but I really dont know it will work.

[zeus-online]

I have tested this.  Jace makes Uba Mask even worse because drawing 3 cards a turn is nutty, but depending on your build, 4cc sorcery speed spells should be tough for your opponent to resolve and it they can play them you probably already losing.
The Jace effect is not that large since in close games they should not be able to play Jace anyway.

How big of a problem was hitting cards you couldn't really use, such as counterspells? Also you're still at 0 cards most of the time due to the "put back" effect of jace's second ability.

[meadbert]

So Jace draws 3 cards in addition to your normal draw.

This means you see 4 cards a turn.

Uba nerfs newly draw counters anyway so the only way this matters is if you have a counter in hand and must put it back.  In that case you could have either countered Uba Mask if you thought it was that bad or just counter the next card Uba Stax plans.

Anyway 4 cards a turn means you keep hitting land drops and just find everything else you need.  It is just silly.

For Jace to be as good with Uba out as it is without Uba out Jace must just hit 1 useful card out of the 3.  That is very likely.
If you hit 2 lands and a counterspell then you still hit your land drop and gain +1 card advantage.


If I am playing Uba Stax and my opponent has Jace out there is no way I play the Uba Mask unless he has like 2 Bobs going in which case he will have to put back revealed cards.

[zeus-online]

I'm talking about your ability to be able to counter for the remainder of the game, which uba mask would nerf for the most part (FoF, confidant and tutors aside) Do you feel confidant against shops without counterspells when playing a mana drain deck?
Since we're talking about uba stax, i'd be afraid of him going bazaar + uba into smokestacks, tanglewires, null rods etc. further nerfing your ability to do anything.

The first thing i'd use jace TMS for in this situation would be looking for a way to get rid of uba.

[meadbert]

If you are drawing 4 cards a turn then I would say just win.

[zeus-online]

And you do not expect the uba player to attempt to stop this?...

[meadbert]

They will try, but usually fail.

[defector]

I think the Uba player almost always fails. Uba Mask was awesome because stax goes at sorcery speed and has an achilles heel draw engine, with Mask+Bazaar you could draw, and play at sorcery speed. The other awesome thing was stopping all that irritating eot draw junk. Sorry, you have to play your spells now and and on your turn just like I do. This was very bad for blue based control, and unfortunately its no longer relevant. Stax is turning into Keeper, I keep my masks in my stax binder waiting for the day when they will matter again.

[meadbert]

If Gush shows up in numbers, then Uba Mask totally wrecks it!

During the last Gush meta Uba had been rules nerfed when they accidentally killed the Uba lock so no one was playing Uba Mask.
This time Uba Mask would be an answer to Gush decks.

[serracollector]

I think one of the biggest problems with Uba Stax is not either the restriction of brainstorm or Jace TMS, I think it's sensie's diving top.  Top simply negates Uba mask's drawback, letting them stack their top card to play w/e they can.  On top of that, if I had Mask in play and my opponent had Jace I would worry more about the Fateseal ability than the BS ability, since they could just let you keep cards on top that you can't afford to cast until they fateseal the game.

If I were to play an Ubamask deck it would have to play 1-3 Diving Tops, as they are just so sick together.  Just my 2 cents.

[Leooooh]

So, I've been testing this idea of Uba mask in a different shell. Basically I took Expresso Stax list and made a few changes to fit the cards I needed.

Here is what I came with:


Uba Stax 2k10

// Lands
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    4  Ancient Tomb
    4  Wasteland
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Rishadan Port
    1  Mishra's Factory (1)
    1  Mishra's Factory (2)
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad

// Creatures
    4  Lodestone Golem
    2  Duplicant

// Spells
    4  Tangle Wire
    3  Smokestack
    3  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Trinisphere
    4  Chalice of the Void
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    3  Thorn of Amethyst
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    4  Sphere of Resistance
    3  Uba Mask

// Sideboard
SB: 2   Maze of Ith
SB: 2  Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ARC] Duplicant
SB: 2   Triskelion
SB: 3  Pithing Needle



First, I thought that Bazaar without welder would suck in this deck, but it DOESN'T. In fact, when not combined with Uba, it can be used to find more threats, and so keep the pressure, by discarding lands that you don't need or moxen or other stuff that would be countered by chalice. This was the draw engine/filter that MUD didn't have.

Another thing. Since this deck plays with a lot of sphere effects, Uba gets stronger plays. In the past, Uba decks never played with more the 4 resistors, and some builds didn't have spheres, depending a lot of Null rod to shut down their acceleration and prefvent them to playing spells. Now, we not only have more sphere effects to power Uba, but we also have a walking sphere with a huge clock.


With Scar release, I might try to play with the new 5/5 Flying Hellkite in the place of Dupes, since he hits so many things and improve the effect of smokestack and wire. But I do think it might not be so good against oath. Unless you play it before oath hits the board, he will be dead as lodestone.


So, any ideas???

[wiley]

... if I had Mask in play and my opponent had Jace I would worry more about the Fateseal ability than the BS ability, since they could just let you keep cards on top that you can't afford to cast until they fateseal the game.

Problem is most (all?) Uba Stax decks ran bazaar of baghdad as a 4 of, so they would see 3 cards a turn or more, it is unappealing to try and fateseal through that as opposed to digging for a way out of the lock with free brainstorm in my opinion.

Remember that welder + mask with one of the two being in multiples is a hard lock.  Also, from one of meadbert's old lists, mask and null brooch have a lot of synergy if the can't get down JTMS.  Also, running b ring is a good way to kill JTMS, or at least keep him in line.  If I were to play UbaStax today it would look more like old UbaWire ot The Jester from the first time around as opposed to something closer to espresso stax w/ mask shoved in.  I would also make sure to have red elemental blast or pyroblast in the side. Heretic might be good too.  I just wish jester's cap was still a good enough card to run against the meta, but I've found that it isn't.