typical opening play (WORKSHOP Edition)

[M.Solymossy]

Chris Posted this:

You are playing typical Tezz list (not Trygon Tezz) vs some form of control deck, you aren't sure what.  Your opener is 3 fetchland, mox pearl, brainstorm, vampiric tutor, demonic tutor. You win the roll.  How do people play this turn?

And I was very interested to see how the plays change given a different matchup, so...

You are playing typical Tezz list (not Trygon Tezz) vs some form of Workshop deck, you aren't sure what.  Your opener is 3 fetchland, mox pearl, brainstorm, vampiric tutor, demonic tutor. You win the roll.  How do people play this turn?  
  
Edit:  just like in Chris' example you only know they're on "some sort of control deck", you just know they're on "some sort of shop deck"

[chrispikula]

I feel like this one really changes wildly based on whether or not I think they have Null Rods.

[Killane]

Chris Posted this:

You are playing typical Tezz list (not Trygon Tezz) vs some form of control deck, you aren't sure what.  Your opener is 3 fetchland, mox pearl, brainstorm, vampiric tutor, demonic tutor. You win the roll.  How do people play this turn?

And I was very interested to see how the plays change given a different matchup, so...

You are playing typical Tezz list (not Trygon Tezz) vs some form of Workshop deck, you aren't sure what.  Your opener is 3 fetchland, mox pearl, brainstorm, vampiric tutor, demonic tutor. You win the roll.  How do people play this turn?  
  

Fetch Basic Swamp, play mox pearl, DT for Lotus, play Lotus, pass. This gives you 5 mana up on turn 2 to deal with Sphere effects. If they drop Null Rod, you have the option to pop the Lotus for   and brainstorm, possibly coming up with Drain, Piece, or Force for the Rod, or worst-case shuffling away some Chaff while retaining vamp and on-board mana. that said, if I know or strongly suspect they have Null Rod, I might be tempted to DT for Force instead of Lotus, but I'm significantly less happy with that line of play.

Ideally, next turn 2 vamp on upkeep for Tinker, play a fetch- island, play Tinker (using Lotus for extra mana as needed) for Inky, beat them to death with it. Even if they drop Wire, you have 3 lands up next run, BS in response to the trigger to find a 4th, start beating them with Inky the turn after.

[BC]

I think you play Fetchland, Pearl, and pass the turn.  On their turn they will play some stuff, and then at the end of their turn you can Vamp for whatever seems to fit the situation based on their plays.  Most likely you will Vamp for Ancestral (if they didn't play Chalice@1) or Tinker.

[Delha]

I feel like this one really changes wildly based on whether or not I think they have Null Rods.

How about in a vaccuum, where you really don't know anything other than the fact that they are on Shops?

I'd wanted to just sit back and see what other people posted, but since nobody seems to be doing so, I'll throw my shot out there.

My first thought was Fetch, Mox, pass. I'd be doing so with the intention of Vamp for Hurkyl's. My plan was to just keep hitting land drops while drawing into more stuff and fitting in the BS on a good EOT. So long as my mana is stable, I figure Hurkyl's gives me time to hit draw spells and build the CA to take this away.

Edit: Bah, too slow.

[zeus-online]

If swamp is in the deck:
Fetch -> Swamp, pearl, demonic for force, upkeep vampiric for (most likely) Ancestral. Ancestral instead of tinker since i can cast it imediatly.
Since we have 3 fetches in hand we could do fetch for U. Sea, since if he wastes he will most likely not be playing much (Chalice for 0 or sphere) and we have lands to spare.

Otherwise:
Fetch, pearl, go with the intention of casting vampiric EOT. Again, most likely for ancestral or, depending on which shop deck(Which i'm hoping to learn from their opening sequence), tinker.

It is also possible to get force with vampiric and then use brainstorm to dig for gas (And hopefully more blue cards to feed the FoW) Simply holding demonic, or possibly casting it after brainstorm on turn 2(Assuming no sphere) Vampiric for FoW could also lead to Demonic-> Ancestral, but it's likely that he will have a sphere to prevent/stall that.

If we choose to go demonic for ancestral there's a real possibility that our opponent will attempt a chalice for 1 since ancestral is such a common target. This would also nulify the rest of our hand. (Since we would be holding fetch, fetch, vampiric, brainstorm, ancestral)

Which again leads me back to going fetch, mox, go and then react to anything he casts.

I'd really like to know what the tinker bot is, and actually the entire decklist. It's hard to judge with limited knowledge.


Here's another sequence, but it's rather risky: Fetch, mox, demonic for lotus, cast lotus, upkeep vampiric for jace TMS and then cast him. (Might even be able to squeeze brainstorm in, fetch and then play Jace and use his brainstorm ability aswell) This play would be much better if there's a basic swamp in the decklist.

[M.Solymossy]

Here is my plan, and reasoning


fetch, Pearl, go.     

You wait to see if they cast Chalice, Sphere, Lodestone, etc.  if they cast a chalice @ 1, you respond with Brainstorm and ditch vamp.  if they play a sphere, you let it resolve, drop your second fetch, and pass back.  if they drop Golem, you eot vamp for Natures claim.   If they cast trinisphere, you vamp for hurkyl's in response.

[JR]

I would play fetch, mox, pass.

Assuming the workshop player has kept their hand of seven, we should bank on them assembling three lock pieces by turn two. Now we just have to narrow down what we care about in terms of their lock pieces:

Null Rod- Probably, yes.
Chalice- We have to respond to it.
Thorn/SoR- One can resolve, but two would be a pain.
3Ball- We have to respond to it.
Lodestone- An immediate response would be required.
Tangle Wire- Ugh.
Crucible/Karn/Metalworker- Meh, not really.

So lets further assume, for the sake of argument, that their hand isn't a total blowout, and doesn't include things like Black Lotus so they can put their ballz on our collective chins. This means we are staring down one lock piece from them on their first turn, with our board being a fetch and a mox. Worst case, they get lodestone, and we have to fetch and get natures claim.

If they cast Thorn or chalice @ anything, I think you do a backflip and vamp for Trygon Predator. this same play takes place if they cast any spell that doesn't make your spells cost more. Once Trygon is established, I think you DT for FoW and hold it for Dups/Trike.

If they cast Trinisphere, you vamp for Hurkyl's.

While I don't think that any shop player would do this on turn one, I can't really see the best way to play this hand around Tangle Wire.

If they cast SoR, you probably sit tight.

This is what I can think of.

JR.

 

[meadbert]

If they cast Trinisphere, you vamp for Hurkyl's.

I would probably get Tinker there.

I would also probably DT for Tinker from the beginning.  They will need two pieces of Mana Denial or Tangle Wire to stop Tinker from hitting.
Turn 1 Wire is slightly weak.
Once Tinker resolves they have few outs which consist of some combination of Smokestack and Tangle Wire.  This is tough to pull off.

Also there is Sculpting Steel or Dups depending on what your tinker targets are.

If they drop Smokestack the next turn (which is their most likely counter) then you can Vamp for Hurkyl's to reset them after the Tinker.

[M.Solymossy]

Everyone is so hard-up on tinker.  I'd honestly not play a tinker-bot in my deck except that I hate drawing Tinker when I don't have Time vault or key.  I very VERY rarely tinker.

In the control mirror, the first person who tinkers for something other than Time Vault, Votaic Key, or Black lotus usually loses.

[JR]

It should also be noted that in the workshop matchup, if your tinker monster is Inkwell, MUD doesn't really have that hard a time racing you. If they get down Karn, they block inkwell all day, as does crucible/factory.

JR.

[M.Solymossy]

If they cast Thorn or chalice @ anything, I think you do a backflip and vamp for Trygon Predator.

playing typical Tezz list (not Trygon Tezz)

*cough*

[zeus-online]

If they cast Trinisphere, you vamp for Hurkyl's.

I would probably get Tinker there.

Agree.
But again, what bot are we playing? If i get a choice, then i'm getting sphinx - It still seems like the best bot.

Everyone is so hard-up on tinker.  I'd honestly not play a tinker-bot in my deck except that I hate drawing Tinker when I don't have Time vault or key.  I very VERY rarely tinker.

In the control mirror, the first person who tinkers for something other than Time Vault, Votaic Key, or Black lotus usually loses.

And why would "Tinker in the control mirror match" be relevant when it's Tez vs. Shops?

Also, although not very relevant right now, i'd add sundering titan and mindslaver to that list.

[JR]

Oops. Reading is tech.

That probably changes my lines of play. If I don't have access to Big Predz, I think I generally agree with what Soly has posted, although I think I value Brainstorm slightly less in this matchup than he does. I would probably use my vamp rather aggressively instead of holding it for Brainstorm fodder.  

[BC]

While I don't think that any shop player would do this on turn one, I can't really see the best way to play this hand around Tangle Wire.

I would absolutely play Tangle Wire turn 1 on the draw.  I would not play it turn 1 on the play, but any time after that I would slap it down as soon as humanly possible.

[meadbert]

That gives you Vamp on Upkeep for Key.  Then Land, Key.

Next turn you can tap Mox, Land, Key and Tinker for Vault.

Turn 4 win.

[Delha]

While I don't think that any shop player would do this on turn one, I can't really see the best way to play this hand around Tangle Wire.

I would absolutely play Tangle Wire turn 1 on the draw.  I would not play it turn 1 on the play, but any time after that I would slap it down as soon as humanly possible.

When I was thinking about what scary things Stax might drop, Wire was the worst one I could think of for this hand (barring Crucible+Strip). Glad to see that fear wasn't misplaced.

[meadbert]

If they cast Trinisphere, you vamp for Hurkyl's.

I would probably get Tinker there.

I would also probably DT for Tinker from the beginning.  They will need two pieces of Mana Denial or Tangle Wire to stop Tinker from hitting.
EDIT:  For some reason I was thinking they needed two pieces on turn 1.  They only need 1 piece turn 1 and then another turn 2 which they should do.
Tinker is terrible here.  I was wrong.
Turn 1 Wire is slightly weak.
Once Tinker resolves they have few outs which consist of some combination of Smokestack and Tangle Wire.  This is tough to pull off.

Also there is Sculpting Steel or Dups depending on what your tinker targets are.

If they drop Smokestack the next turn (which is their most likely counter) then you can Vamp for Hurkyl's to reset them after the Tinker.

[M.Solymossy]

In the control mirror, the first person who tinkers for something other than Time Vault, Votaic Key, or Black lotus usually loses.

And why would "Tinker in the control mirror match" be relevant when it's Tez vs. Shops?
[/quote]

Because Tinker is awful against Control 90% of the time, Combo 99% of the time, and Shops 60% of the time.  It's only ever relivant versus heavy aggro strategies, which aren't really in the metagame right now.

I tell ya though, if I'm sitting next to Amby Duck, I'm aggro-Mulliganing to tinker 

[zeus-online]

It's not that i disagree, i just fail to see why thats relevant vs. shops

The only reason i run tinker these days is because of fish, which is also why i use sphinx over inkwell.

[M.Solymossy]

It's not that i disagree, i just fail to see why thats relevant vs. shops

The only reason i run tinker these days is because of fish, which is also why i use sphinx over inkwell.

Even fish runs Jace.

My point is that people are too quick to run out tinker.  But stax has Tangle Wires x4 and Karn to deal with that, Smokestack, and just racing you.

That's another reason I just hate Trygon Predator (Besides the fact that it has anal herpies).

[zeus-online]

Even fish runs Jace.

Sure they do, but they can race inkwell, they can't race sphinx almost regardless of what horrible position i'm in. (Aside from jace)

[M.Solymossy]

Even fish runs Jace.

Sure they do, but they can race inkwell, they can't race sphinx almost regardless of what horrible position i'm in. (Aside from jace)

Or plowshares, which most Noble Fish decks main 3.

[zeus-online]

Even fish runs Jace.

Sure they do, but they can race inkwell, they can't race sphinx almost regardless of what horrible position i'm in. (Aside from jace)

Or plowshares, which most Noble Fish decks main 3.

So you think it's better to have a tinker bot they can't touch, but can ignore?

[M.Solymossy]

So you think it's better to have a tinker bot they can't touch, but can ignore?

I think it's best to not have a Tinker bot.  Actually, I think playing Time Vault is boring.  Hense why I played Doomsday.

[zeus-online]

So you think it's better to have a tinker bot they can't touch, but can ignore?

I think it's best to not have a Tinker bot.  Actually, I think playing Time Vault is boring.  Hense why I played Doomsday.

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion. And yes time vault decks are boring (Compared to old drain decks anyway, still more fun then jund)

[Odd mutation]

It's not that i disagree, i just fail to see why thats relevant vs. shops

The only reason i run tinker these days is because of fish, which is also why i use sphinx over inkwell.

Strange, I play Inkwell in my Oath list BECAUSE of Fish...
Seriously, it improved my matchup a lot.

Robrecht

[Delha]

It's not that i disagree, i just fail to see why thats relevant vs. shops

The only reason i run tinker these days is because of fish, which is also why i use sphinx over inkwell.

Strange, I play Inkwell in my Oath list BECAUSE of Fish...
Seriously, it improved my matchup a lot.

Robrecht

As I understand it, people generally accept that Sphinx is vulnerable to Swords in return for the fact that it is practically impossible to race.

[honestabe]

Everytime I see someone playing fish, I asked which bot they're the most afraid of, and most of the time, i hear inkwell.  So, I run inkwell.

Anyway, vs shops, I'd just fetch, mox pass, and tutor depending on what they do