Memnite

[TopSecret]

This is it, gentlemen.



This.

Is it.


You may be wondering what I am talking about.
My friends, I am talking about the future of Vintage.

To some this card may appear sub-par. To some, even terrible. This is not an unreasonable assumption.
Memnite is a 1/1 with no abilities. There has never been a playable 1/1 with no abilities before.

However, Memnite also costs zero mana.

It may be tempting to compare Memnite to Kobolds, or Ornithropter. But this card is an entirely different beast.
Unlike all its zero mana predecessors, Memnite can actually deal damage.

This may not seem noteworthy to some. It is true that one damage is not a lot. But in this case it is enough damage to break the format.

Vintage has been defined by blue control decks since its infancy
and Tendrils, Flame Fusillade, Tinker/Colossus, and Vault/Key have all been great control finishers in their day.
A control player had to lower his guard to use them or be far ahead on resources to afford the extra mana to close up the game.
But a player does not have to lower his guard to cast Memnite. He does not have to be far ahead on resources to close up the game.

This is huge.

This means if two players are evenly matched in resources, the player with the Memnite wins.
And if a card causes one player to win when both players are evenly matched in resources, that is the definition of a good card.
This means that Memnite is amazing.

Is it even possible to beat a control deck that can keep mana up for counterspells every turn?
Even decks like Draw-Go and Blue Bull Sh*t had to tap mana for something to win with.
Even Landstill has to play man-lands and pay mana to activate them.
But control decks playing Memnite? They don't have to tap out. Ever.

Guys, this is broken.

But there's more.
What is the best answer to Memnite?
Spell Pierce can't target it. Memnite can get into play before Thoughtseize. Using Force of Will on Memnite is a poor trade.
What about narrower cards like Nature's Claim? Darkblast? Lava Dart?
These cards all cost mana. Which means that killing Memnite with any of these is a loss of tempo.
In fact, any card that costs mana is a poor answer to Memnite.

So that means...
Memnite is the best answer to Memnite.



God. DAMN.



That's right. Since Memnite will be played by control decks, all other decks will be forced to play Memnite as an answer to Memnite.

Discuss.

[BruiZar]

Very interesting approach to card analysis. While it is true that this guy is a slow 20 turn clock, it IS a clock. You definately don't want to waste resources on Memnite removal. Bounce doesn't work (Jace/Hurkyll's Recall) because you will just replay it for free. Gorilla Shaman is effective at stopping Memnite because it can also deal with moxen. I would completely agree with you if it weren't for the following cards:

Time Vault/Voltaic Key
Tinker/Robot

Wouldn´t you rather just take infinite turns or tinker for a robot? Tendrils for lethal or eat Memnite with Karn? What I suggest is Skullclamp, which happens to give you insanity with Yawgmoth's Will. With Skullclamp you are forcing your opponent to counter Memnites as it reads : Draw 2 cards. Kobolds could also draw with clamp, but they do nothing on their own. Memnite kills confidants, welders and other 1/1's. Is this the new draw engine for Vintage?

[MaximumCDawg]

Yeah, memnite suffers from the same problem Leyline of Anticipation does; sure, it rocks to get out early, but it's a crappy late draw.  Do you really want to give up 3 later draws to get one mana up on tempo early?

[Troy_Costisick]

Gorilla Shaman is effective at stopping Memnite because it can also deal with moxen.

Did you mean ineffective since Gorilla Shaman can't target creatures?

[T00L]

I read a thread on here that said Ancestral Recall should see more play. Lots of innovative thinking going on these days

[TopSecret]

Yeah, memnite suffers from the same problem Leyline of Anticipation does; sure, it rocks to get out early, but it's a crappy late draw.  Do you really want to give up 3 later draws to get one mana up on tempo early?

I don't really understand this comparison. Memnite is not a crappy late draw. Even if you draw Memnite in the late game, it will still kill the opponent like an early Memnite will. Also, you do not have to play 4 Memnite for it to be effective. You only need to draw 1 to kill the opponent. Of course, the question of exactly how many Memnite to play gets more complicated when considering that everyone will be playing Memnite to combat opposing Memnites. I'm not sure what the optimal number of Memnites will be or if the optimal number will be consistent over time. But what is important is that Memnites will be everywhere.

[The Atog Lord]

It's time to stock up on Contagion and Snuff Out.

[MaximumCDawg]

Yeah, memnite suffers from the same problem Leyline of Anticipation does; sure, it rocks to get out early, but it's a crappy late draw.  Do you really want to give up 3 later draws to get one mana up on tempo early?

I don't really understand this comparison. Memnite is not a crappy late draw. Even if you draw Memnite in the late game, it will still kill the opponent like an early Memnite will.

Yes, but if you've got two blue control players hacking their way into a topdeck war, what do you want to topdeck: Memnite, or... anything else?  That's my point.   I don't think Memnite's anemic "clock" is worth caring about; it kills slower than an opponent's own spells and fetches do.  I suppose it's really neat to be able to stop Bob beats for free, but that's about it.

It's time to stock up on Contagion and Snuff Out.

Or just ignore the ping for four turns and grudge it when you have spare mana for a turn.

[TheShop]

Or time to stock up on a single Beta copy of Prodigal Sorcerer to tutor and kill all these guys.  Trike will kill em too!

I like this creature a lot and have always wanted this to be printed.  It looks most closely comparable to dryad arbor.  I think this card is absolutely comparable to kobolds and other gimmick win conditions...yeah, it is good in the control mirror I guess, but Bob would trade with it when they no longer want him, darkblast will only put you up 1 mana(negligible in that long game)...he gets chaliced out. 

This card is far better than average, but not nearly broken.  You are looking at "the deck" level of control perfectly through the whole game to actually kill someone with this.

[TopSecret]

Yes, but if you've got two blue control players hacking their way into a topdeck war, what do you want to topdeck: Memnite, or... anything else?  That's my point.

The key is to not be the player who's topdecking. Using Memnite as a win condition allows more mana to be available during the entirety of the game. This allows the Memnite player to spend more mana on card draw and deck manipulation than the opponent, and consequently not be the player stuck topdecking.

[vassago]

The theory sounds great. I am sure it's application will not be as amazing.   

[arctic79]

I made a mess in my pants when I saw Memnite.  For a tier 2 deck he will be so much fun to sac for tinker and not your mox, or to run with glimpse of nature. 

The biggest thing I see with Memnite is possibly making Thoughtcast playable in Vintage at least in a tier 2 deck.

[Will]

Sure he's better than a Kobold or the like, but everyone is reiterating the idea that he doesn't cost any resources when in fact he does since cards in your hand are resources.  The whole Memnite beatdown works if you are in a stalemate with your opponent but by playing him in your deck and having him in your hand you are down 1 card automatically and 4 in your deck.

[honestabe]

memnite . dek scoops to pyroclasm!!!!!!

stock up on those

[serracollector]

Memnite + Master of Etherium = tech. Throw in Thoughtcast and you got 1/5 your deck done already.

First turn Memnite + Workshop + Sphere = 2 mana Lodestone. If you drop 4 turn 1 and a sphere....wow. 

He gives you 4 more things to shrapnel blast at no more than 2 measly mana.

In Empty the Warren's decks he makes an extra token for free, while acting as a free token.  2 for 0.  Thats just crazy math I can't even get into.

Him + first turn Jitte is just crazyiness.

You can Nature's Claim it and gain 4 life for only 1 mana.

Even if you have a sphere in play he is a 1/1 for 1 mana, which isn't bad.

[The Atog Lord]

memnite . dek scoops to pyroclasm!!!!!!

stock up on those

And Simoon wins the mirror.

[BruiZar]

It would be hilarious if vintage, the format with the most broken plays, revolves around a 1/1 zero CC beatstick. I hope Memnite will take on that role, if only to show people playing other formats that vintage isn't neccesarily a broken format, but rather a different beast to tame.

[Marske]

@The Atog Lord,
Obv you stack up on:



To beat the mirror without losing resources!!, using This:

Tempered Steel 1ww
Enchantment    Rare
Artifact creatures you control get +2/+2.
"Death shall prevail as long as our will falls to rust. May necessity anneal our resolve."
-Ghalma the Shaper

To win the match eventually !!  Not to mention all these little morsels are wonderful with your minions:






I see a new Top Vintage deck coming, TV/Key has nothing on this! Now Lets hope they don't print a card like:



OH........WAIT.........

Well it's not like people are winning the game for 4 colorless mana....... ugh... wait.... why are we talking about this again ?

[TopSecret]

Sure he's better than a Kobold or the like, but everyone is reiterating the idea that he doesn't cost any resources when in fact he does since cards in your hand are resources.  The whole Memnite beatdown works if you are in a stalemate with your opponent but by playing him in your deck and having him in your hand you are down 1 card automatically and 4 in your deck.

Currently, every good win condition costs a card in hand. The advantage of Memnite is that it does not cost any mana. This means the mana that would otherwise be spent on paying for a win condition can go towards card draw, which nets cards in hand, which effectively makes Memnite not cost a card in hand. And therefore Memnite doesn't cost any resources.

Also, you don't have to play 4 Memnite since you only need to draw 1 to kill the opponent. However, since everyone will be playing Memnite, everyone will also be playing Memnites to answer opposing Memnites, so the optimal number of Memnites may end up being closer to 4 Memnites.

[Ozymandias]

This line of thinking, while intriguing, is flawed in a very old, Weissman-esque sense. That is to say, suppose you drop Memnite turn 1. Your opponent has 20 full turns to find an answer. This makes the incremental mana advantage meaningless. For those 20 turns, memnite is effectively a dead card, meaning you are down a card in your opening hand--a much larger disadvantage.

[MaximumCDawg]

Sure he's better than a Kobold or the like, but everyone is reiterating the idea that he doesn't cost any resources when in fact he does since cards in your hand are resources.  The whole Memnite beatdown works if you are in a stalemate with your opponent but by playing him in your deck and having him in your hand you are down 1 card automatically and 4 in your deck.

Currently, every good win condition costs a card in hand. The advantage of Memnite is that it does not cost any mana. This means the mana that would otherwise be spent on paying for a win condition can go towards card draw, which nets cards in hand, which effectively makes Memnite not cost a card in hand. And therefore Memnite doesn't cost any resources.

Also, you don't have to play 4 Memnite since you only need to draw 1 to kill the opponent. However, since everyone will be playing Memnite, everyone will also be playing Memnites to answer opposing Memnites, so the optimal number of Memnites may end up being closer to 4 Memnites.

I want to see you running Memnite.dec as soon as its legal and post your results.  Then, once we have some data, we can speak more intelligently about this.  My strong impression is that a 20 turn clock, free or not, is basically irrellevant in a format where half the decks just needs a small opening to blow you out in a single turn, and the other half play bigger creatures before Memnite can do more damage than a lightning bolt.  

[TopSecret]

I want to see you running Memnite.dec as soon as its legal and post your results.  Then, once we have some data, we can speak more intelligently about this.  My strong impression is that a 20 turn clock, free or not, is basically irrellevant in a format where half the decks just needs a small opening to blow you out in a single turn, and the other half play bigger creatures before Memnite can do more damage than a lightning bolt.  

I actually put this thread in the community forum instead of the strategy forum because I wasn't being serious.





I was being SUPER SERIOUS.





Guys, this is a big deal. We're not talking about Memnite.dec. We're talking about Memnite.FORMAT.
The community needs to be aware of this.

As has been pointed out, Vintage is a format where even the tiniest opening can allow an opponent to win via blow out. And that is exactly why Memnite is broken.
A control player who uses Memnite is never required to tap mana to win the game. He can always keep mana up for counterspells and never leave an opening for the opponent.
This is so ridiculous. I am still having trouble believing that Wizards would print such a card.

[Adan]

Errr... Not. I jut can't see in which deck he actually supports any gameplan. He's just a 1/1 vanilla. For free, yes, but he still will be a dead topdeck in situations where you have to go nuts or something.

The only innovative thing I see currently would be a kind of Fishdeck with Memnite and Ninjas. You can do Island, Menite, go with Stifle Daze and Spell Pierce in your hand and 2nd Turn you can ninjutsu Ninja with having stifled the opponent's fetch or something, then replay him to maintain 3 power on the board.
Or you can swarm the board with Menites, then drop a Standstill.

I just don't see why this should be really format breaking if there are decks that even LOVE to give you 1/1s for free, because they win because of that...

[serracollector]

4 Memnite
4 Ninja
4 Cloud of Fairies
4 Master of Etherium
6 Moxen/Lotus
4 Thoughcast
16 Counterspells
4 Standstill
14 islands

GG.

[BruiZar]

Logically I can totally agree with TopSecret, but I can't help but feel skeptical about this. In hindsight, it will be easy to say you were right or wrong, but at this stage its incredibly hard to predict the place of memnite. Against Oath Memnite seems like a liability. How often do you win through spirit token beat down with Oath of Druids? Usually, the only times that happens is when you have a swarm of Spirits swinging every turn. I think, if you can add maybe 1 Skullclamp to the build, you can translate the Memnites into efficient card advantage as well as doubling as a win condition. In fact, yawgmoths will with a skullclamp and memnites will give you so much C.A. that you will win the control matchup anyway.

I like Adan's suggestion for using Ninjitsu and keeping Stifle/Daze up. Another potentially strong play would be to flashback cabal therapy first turn.

[Oath of Happy]

I agree, this card will completely revolutionize type 1.  Expect to see decks running 4x Fire/Ice and 4x pyroclasm maindeck.  Immagine this play: turn 1 Mountain, Mon's Goblin Raiders, Memnite.  Even if you manage to Force of Will one of them, your still going to be dead 19 turns later! ZOMG!

[madmanmike25]

1.)  Caltrops > Memnite

2.)  How much play does Frogmite see?

This card is good with Shared Discovery and Shared Discovery is still a bad card.  Is Memnite the card Koblolds needs to get back to tier 5??  Enquiring minds want to know.

This could have some uses with Salvage Titan however...

[Cyberpunker]

Nice

now instead of running 12 kobolds.

We can run 16!!!!! Oh yeah.

[CorwinB]

1.)  Caltrops > Memnite

2.)  How much play does Frogmite see?

This card is good with Shared Discovery and Shared Discovery is still a bad card.  Is Memnite the card Koblolds needs to get back to tier 5??  Enquiring minds want to know.

This could have some uses with Salvage Titan however...

In addition to Shared Discovery, you could also run Unified Will, which is nice in that it allows you to counter opposing Memnites without needing UU online. OTOH, Spell Blast would be an even stronger counterspell in this case.

[Bibendum]

oh man i have another creature for fruity pebbles.

4x ornithopter
4x walker
4x memnite
4x of that bitching free wall
4x enduring renewal
4x goblin bombardment

gg