My Elf Deck...Help please.

[silvernail]

how much do you see non basic hate llike blood moon and wasteland ? Shop is harping on you for having a weak mana base but that may not matter for you. I'd think that Cabal Therapy and Tendrils of Agony would be solid black cards to add for you. Also possible is Root Maze or Thorn of Amethyst to slow down other combo decks.

[Sharkles]

When I played last weekend, I saw absolutely no non-basic land hate.

[silvernail]

Ya if you dont have non basic hate you can get away with running multiple duals and splashing for various cards like ancient grudge etc.

[TheShop]

Silver is right, my bad completely.  When I don't know what a meta looks like I always assume wasteland will be there.

If you feel like you can get away with it, choose superior hate in another color.  But I would personally keep the maindeck streamlined and green.  I might also would run green sacs for the colors I am not actually playing instead of the colors I am.  It probably won't make any difference at all, but I like the sneakiness.

[Sharkles]

There is a kid who plays Ghost Quarters though.  So having the basics to get would be helpful.  Same with Path to Exile that I see on occasion.  So I think running just basics is working out fine, and after taking out the Cradles and adding fetches and basics, I haven't had to mull yet; and the extra Quirion Rangers have come in hand when I'll only have two sentinels untapped and I need that third elf.  So thanks for the tips, they've helped me out a lot so far.  I'm assuming more kids will play next weekend so, there may be more to tell about the meta.  As far as splashing for hate goes, this is just my opinion, may not be the best of decisions, but I'd rather have four more elves than four Duresses.

EDIT: In all honesty, I like playing the basics better because I want to bb the deck.  However, while goldfishing I found that I ran into clumps of land, I don't know if that's bad shuffling or maybe I have too many lands.

[Sharkles]

So, today I played against a Painter's Grindstone deck and Dark Depths.  The Painter's Grindstone deck also had the Dark Depths combo in it.  Although I made the suggested changes with the fetches, I feel like the deck actually became worse.  A few times when I started going off before I got my Skullclamp I would just have a hand full of lands.  I don't know if that's poor shuffling on my part or what.

You guys usually pack fetch lands over Land Grant because Force of Will is in every deck you play against.  However, I don't think any of the decks I play against run FoW.  So should I sub out some fetches for Land Grant or should I leave them as is?

[TheShop]

Idk what to tell you.  I am not certain that grant will thin the deck more than sacs.  Having a draw engine going is a key element here,  without the badass draw you are playing a crappy beatz deck with no disruption.

Again, I think your best shot is beating garbage like that out of the board-
Xx pithing needle
Xx Nature's claim

You should be able to race them anyway.  Painter is slow, specially when unpowered.  It takes them 3 turns normally to kill you.  Your path to victory is winning before turn 3.  If you build a version of elves that gets there, you have a shot. Do more testing and try out some of the different options.  If any of the earlier suggestions or iterations win more- go with that.

Sorry the suggestions haven't gotten you there yet.

[Sharkles]

Well, I read Rich's report and tried Regal Force and that seems to help out, of course I have to already be going off to cast it.

[TheShop]

I run a singleton copy of force in mine because he draws while you are stalling and can be tutored.  I have had games where you are going off and then rip some lands in a row and need that extra draw.

You dont have to be going off to cast him, just have to have 4 billion mana...which may mean elves with no draw engine.

[Sharkles]

Well, I've been goldfishing and averaging turn 2, so I'm doing something right.

[TheShop]

turn 2 is good, because umpowered reanimator and unpowered painter's grindstone have slower goldfishes ON AVERAGE.

[Sharkles]

Well, I've seen unpowered win turn 1, I did notice the emphasis on average, but I'm just sayin'.

[Sharkles]

Should I sideboard Fog to deal with the Dark Depths deck?

[Delha]

I'd use Storm Front over Fog. That isn't to say that Storm Front is a good card, but if you were looking for that narrow of an answer, that's probably what I'd go with.

[Sharkles]

Also, the guy that played Dark Depths has a land that reduces all damage that would be dealt to him to zero, so I was wondering if I should sideboard a strip mine or something like that.  Or just something to counter Crop Rotation?

[Delha]

That'd be Glacial Chasm. Do you tend to generate enough mana for a lethal Banefire? If so, I'd take that over Strip.

[Sharkles]

He can respond to Banefire with Crop Rotation for Glacial Chasm though.  Nevermind.  I didn't know the damage couldn't be prevented.

As of right now, this is my side board:

3 Trickbind
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Gaea's Herald
1 Duress
1 Banefire
1 Nature's Claim
1 City of Solitude
1 Night Soil
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Gaea's Blessing

Any cards you think don't belong?  Any cards I'm missing?  Suggestions would be much appreciated.

[MaximumCDawg]

Anyone tried using maindeck Elvish Archdruid?  I've been goldfishing an elf combo deck that trades out some of the utility creatures to play a non-combo box of:

4 Archdruid
3 Imperious Perfect (probably gonna lose these)
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wirewood Symbiote

The singletons are there to be fetched with Pact if I need em to keep the gas going.  The Lords are there to make the deck easier to switch into aggro mode if necessary, and steal wins where you can belch out pumped elves t2.  The Archdruid has a nice side effect of solving all your mana issues related to going off if you untap with him in play.  The Perfect seems less than optimal. 

Granted, this might be more of a slow build for a non-powered meta, or more suited to Legacy.  (Adam Ramsey piloted a list like that to 9th place at the Colorado Star City Legacy Open)

[Sharkles]

So, decided fetches are the way to go now after getting a Land Grant FoW'd today which of course resulted in me losing said game.

[TheShop]

This has gotta be my favorite thread of the last few months.  Watching this process happen in the last 2 pages!!!

Has the meta changed substantially there?  Sacs do still seem good.

[Sharkles]

Well, my friend who usually plays the Iona Reanimate decided to play 5CC and it turns out he had some FoWs.  I was playing my friend's Belcher deck and he kicked my Land Grant's butt.
Clearly that was no fun.

And I'm thinking you were being sarcastic about this being your favorite thread, but if not, thanks.

EDIT: I also feel like I'm running too many lands I draw one in my opening hand every time, but I also hit them a lot when I'm going off and maybe it's poor shuffling on my part but sometimes I'll hit three in a row.  I tried to replicate Rich's list to see if it was more efficient, but without power I replace the two pieces with Gaea's Cradle and an Elvish Spirit Guide.  If there are better replacements, it'd be cool to let me know.

[TheShop]

I wasnt being sarcastic.  I like spirit guide, but am hesitant to put a stamp of approval on cradle because I have actually ripped it in my opening hand with no other mana source and had to mull...uncommon, but just a shitty feeling.

[Sharkles]

I know what you mean.  That rarely happens though.  Would you suggest maybe cutting the lands or cradle?  I run 8 fetches and five basic Forests along with Cradles.  That's 14 lands and like I said it sucks when I'm going off and run into a clump of 3-4 lands in a row.

[Killane]

I wasnt being sarcastic.  I like spirit guide, but am hesitant to put a stamp of approval on cradle because I have actually ripped it in my opening hand with no other mana source and had to mull...uncommon, but just a shitty feeling.

I always fin it interesting when people start to cut things from lists because they can be bad in the opening hand. 99% of the time YAwgmoth's Will is bad in the opening hand, in every deck that runs it. Should we cut it, too? Are there other reasons why Cradle is bad in this list? I'll admit, I'm not too experienced with Elves in vintage. How is it as a topdeck compared with what you would replace it with? When it's good, how good is it? Is it a bomb? Does it offer only marginally better utility than a basic forest, or can it get mind-blowing?

[Sharkles]

Think about it.  Turn two Gaea's Cradle you can either tap it for two or ten.  No Forest in my opening makes Cradle a dead card, hence it being a one of.

[TheShop]

Killane makes a great point.  I dont agree with people cutting their tinker target- sundering titanin stax because it is a dead card.  The only theoretical reason here is that most of my hands with this deck open with a single mana source that doesn't require mana to play.  If cradle is that source, every card in your hand becomes dead.  If will or Titan are in your hand in those other decks,the hand is usually suboptimal but at least playable/somewhat functional.

Cradle is the best second mana source to drop, and may be worth the occasional automull to have an occasional blowout.  Note: this card single handedly pays for tabernacle and is tutorable in mono-green

[Sharkles]

I can't utilize quirion ranger with cradle though.  Just a thought.

[serracollector]

has a singleton of concordant crossroads and Coat of Arms every crossed your mined?  Both would be very helpful, and provide another win condition in, going off, going off, crossraods, coat, swing for 150 damage etc.  Just a thought.

[Delha]

I can't utilize quirion ranger with cradle though.  Just a thought.

If you tap Cradle once, do you realistically need to tap it a second time?

[Sharkles]

I had a Concordant Crossroads in previously, but now, but I need to tap elves to play out more elves and I do that with Heritage Druid, so although it would make it so I could attack the turn came out, which is also the reason for no CoA in addition to the fact that it would make my Skullclamp useless, and if my Grapeshot is not enough to kill them, I'll just swing with all I've got next turn.

And I was saying I couldn't return Gaea's Cradle with Quirion Ranger say turn two when I only have two elves untapped and I just played out Heritage Druid.