My Elf Deck...Help please.

[Sharkles]

So, I used to post a lot in the Vintage section of the mtg forums, but it's pretty dead there so here I am!

I have this elf deck that I've been continuously working on.  The main competition I have is Belcher, and Painter's Servant, Iona.  I also have a problem with Meddling Mage which is why I have Pyroclasm in my board, but I can't recover very easily from it, either that or I use a Trickbind on it.  Both of them have the capabilities of first turn.  I want to make my deck as consistent as possible, I know guaranteed turn two may seem outrageous, but at least turn three.  I play in a powerless meta, without further ado:

3 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Gaea's Cradle
1 Forest
1 Bayou

4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Elvish Visionary
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Eternal Witness
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Viridian Shaman

4 Land Grant
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Skullclamp
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Lotus Petal
1 Grapeshot
1 Crop Rotation
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor

Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
3 Trickbind
3 Pyroclasm
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Night Soil
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 City of Solitude
1 Coat of Arms

please try not to be over critical

[The Atog Lord]

Hello, Sharkles, and welcome to The Mana Drain.

Here are a few tips on getting the most from your time here. First, if your deck is an Elf deck, please indicate this in the title of the thread. Otherwise, people who look at the thread name won't be able to know whether to look at it or not. It helps keep everything organized, and encourages people who are also interested in Elf decks to look at the thread.

Second, it is hard to offer advice on a deck unless we know how you want to change things. I can guarantee that your deck wants Black Lotus and Mox Emerald -- that part is easy. But whether Gaea's Cradle is worth running over more Forests is a question of your expected metagame. And whether Land Grant will cost you too many games against Force of Will is too. In other words, we probably need a bit more help in order to make worthwhile recommendations for your deck.

[Sharkles]

Like I said, I don't play in a powered meta, so I don't really have to worry about Force of Will, but I have to race decks.  I understand the deck would be exponentially better if I had power, but I don't.  Also, I've recently acquired some fetches and was wondering if they should be added.  Also, Gaea's Cradle is incredible unless I have it in my opening hand in which case I have to mulligan.

[meadbert]

Most of us play in powered metas so this is outside our comfort zone.

I do not know much about Elves in general, but I think I can help with your sideboard.

I do not know what a powerless Belcher list looks like.  Thorn of Amethyst might be good there since it does not effect many of your spell.
Also there is Mindbreak Trap.


By Iona I assume you mean Oath.  Nature's Claim can help against both Painter's Servant and Oath.  You did not mention Chalice of The Void, but Chalice@1 should tear you apart and Nature's Claim does not help that.

How is Meddling Mage problematic?  It seems to me that even if they name Clamp or Glimpse you can just go the aggro route and play a lot more creatures.  Also Clamp should be able to hit first anyway.

I know little about Elves, but surely Pyroclasm is not the way to go here.  Pyroblast or REB seems better.

There is Engineered Explosives which hits some of your own creatures, but it does remove Meddling Mage, Oath and Painter's Servant so I figured I should mention it.
Explosives can also remove Chalice@1.

A card that can bee "cool" against Oath is Emerald Charm.  The primary use would be to remove an Oath of Druids, but you can also untap Gaea's Cradle with it to generate a lot of mana.  It sort of functions as Dark Ritual on steroids with Gaea's Cradle out.  It still suffers from the Chalice@1 problem.

Good luck!

[DubDub]

either that or I use a Trickbind on it.

Small correction here, unfotunately Trickbind does not 'work' in stopping the card naming with Meddling Mage (or the color naming with Iona, for that matter).  Trickbind counters activated or triggered abilities. but Meddling Mage's card naming is not a triggered ability, it is actually a replacement effect on entering the battlefield.  Since you are splashing red and black, more efficient answers to Meddling Mage may be Lightning Bolt and Deathmark.  Each of those kill Meddling Mage and other problem creatures like Ethersword Canonist, Gaddock Teeg, Dark Confidant (Bolt only), Tarmogoyf (Deathmark only, probably), Lodestone Golem (Bolt only) and others.  Bolt is probably slightly favored due to its better general synergy with attacking with elves, and grapeshotting.

[Sharkles]

Well, for when Chalice one is played against me, I really am screwed, but what I do is dig for Viridian Shaman.  As for the Iona deck, what he does is entomb her and then reanimate her.  I'm pretty sure.

[Killane]

Seal of Primordium/Naturalize are good answers to Chalice at 1 that also kill Oath.

Vs Entomb/Reanimate strategies there are any number of good black Hate cards - it depends on what you want/need to answer. Does he run only Iona? Extripate seems good. I've never polited an elf deck myself, but Leylines and maybe even Serum Powders in the board can really kill GY based strategies, and your deck has lots of 4-offs so it seems like Serum Poder might work for you (just make sure you don't accidentially toss the Grapeshot). Good vs Belcher as well since you can also include Leyline of Sanctity and give yourself Trollshroud, leaving you only Gobbos to worry about. Engineered Explosives woudl be a good answer for them.

[The Atog Lord]

In the hope that it helps, here is a report I wrote after playing an Elf deck a couple of years ago:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36980.0

Is MUD a deck in your metagame? Is Ichorid? Both of these decks deserve dedicated slots, at least in the sideboard.

Pithing Needle is an answer to Belcher, as is Mindbreak Trap, as has been discussed above. I like solutions that require no mana investment, and so Trap becomes an especially viale way to circumvent those win conditions. Leyline of Anticipation would handle Belcher itself, but you are still then open to Goblin tokens. Leyline of Singularity would halt Goblins, but is too harmful to your own strategy.

Finally, I found that using Gaea's Cradle cost me too many games because it is dead in the opening hand. Your mileage may vary. Fetchlands are much better than Land Grant, since you don't just lose the game to a timely counter.

[forests failed you]

Was looking at your list and I had a few suggestions you might find favorable.  Fastbond seems like it would be pretty strong in here, allowing you to continue playing lands while you are going off.  Fastbond is such an awesome and unique card that I usually at least try it when I am building new decks.

Another card that I think might be spicy out of an Elf deck sideboard would be Thorns of Amethyst.  It is much likely to disrupt decks where it is good more than you, since the majority of your deck consists of creatures.  Its also a pretty awesome card against Belcher. 

[Sharkles]

One of my roommates actually plays Ichorid, but unfortunately I don't have any Leylines yet, and I totally forgot about them when thinking of ways to deal with Iona, so I'll definitely try to get a play set of those for my board.

[DubDub]

Leyline of Anticipation would handle Belcher itself.

I believe Rich meant to say Leyline of Sanctity here.

[Sharkles]

Yeah I figured that out because anticipation didn't make a lot of sense to me.

[The Atog Lord]

Right, sorry for the confusion.

[Sharkles]

It's okay.  I really appreciate you guys leaving your comfort zone and helping me out with ways to deal with decks that you most likely don't deal with.

[TheShop]

For sideboard: don't forget the fun green spells, like using Gaea's herald to get around chalices or reverent silence to beat oath.  Ground seal beats reanimate itself, but you are probly better off running leyline of the void or tormod's crypt. You can beat chalice!  Fastbond is a win-more card
if no one has answered yet on the sac-lands...my version of elves(currently sitting sleaved for my brothers use), runs 8 sac lands and 4 forests.  I don't splash colors.  Don't run land grant if you were thinking about it...it blows.  

My current board for this deck is:
4 reverent silence
4 natures claim
4 naturalize
3 choke

I don't play belcher or dredge...but if I did, you better believe I would pack 4 pithing needle...and if belcher is really a big deal, 4 null rod as well.  Painter loses like hell to 8 disenchants, as do scrubby budget versions of stax(especially if your manabase is unwastable).

[DubDub]

Deathmark which I mentioned above is also a very efficient answer to Iona if they name Green, and if they don't then you should be able to continue to combo or at least get enough guys to win a damage race (it helps if they Reanimate as opposed to Exhume).

[Sharkles]

What happens is he gets out Painter's Servant then Reanimates Iona, game.

[TheShop]

If I thought I would just roll anyone not playing Iona, painter, and belcher I would board:

4 pithing needle
4 null rod

if reanimator Iona:  
4 leyline
3 crypt

if oath Iona:
4 reverent silence
3 nature's claim

I guess you have to board against chalice/oath  too though, so how about:
4 needle
2 rod
4 naturalize
3 claim
2 reverent silence

if reanimator and chalice concern:
4 needle
1 rod
4 leyline void
4 gaea's herald
2 crypt


Idk if these are optimal, but at least you get like 6 slots vs every one of those imprtant matches.  Gaea's herald is good because he can be tutored with summoner's pact.

[BruiZar]

If you want an on-color solution against Reanimator, look for Wheel of Sun and Moon or Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog.  (Cast Crop Rotation in response to his Duress/Thoughtseize/Reanimate). It can also get you your Gaea´s Cradle so you can go off with a bunch of mana reliably with only 1 copy of cradle in your deck.

Edit: Price wise, Crop Rotation and Bojuka Bog cost nothing. Wheel of Sun and Moon is also cheap. I prefer Wheel of Sun and Moon over leyline, because if Leyline is not in your opening hand, you don't have many ways to cast it. Wheel of Sun and Moon can come down very quickly, even if you don't have it in your opening grips.

[Sharkles]

The only thing is, Wheel of Sun and Moon hurts me too because I can't use Skullclamp.

[DubDub]

What happens is he gets out Painter's Servant then Reanimates Iona, game.

You could play preemptive cards like Brittle Effigy/Executioner's Capsule/Aether Spellbomb (which would require a different splash).

The only thing is, Wheel of Sun and Moon hurts me too because I can't use Skullclamp.

Wheel of Sun and Moon enchants a player, so you can just choose your opponent.

[Sharkles]

I don't want to have to sideboard things in that would make me have to change the way I play which is usually balls to the wall.

[TheShop]

Then run free or 1 mana answers to things.

Leyline won't be bad in conjunction with crypt because you only need to see one to slow them down enough to kill them
needle doesn't effect you at all and costs 1 mana
gaea's herald is an elf, and only costs 2...not expensive or slow considering you will be really slow otherwise
Ivory mask leyline vs belcher might be cool

remember that some decks are just faster than you and balls to the wall=loss unless you find a new gameplan. 

[Sharkles]

I was just saying that I don't have any sit back and relax turns.  Once I see a Glimpse, I decide it's time to go big or go home, so I go all in.

[TheShop]

And I'm just sayin that you can't race belcher, ant, dredge, stax dropping chalice...so go home will occur frequently unless you plan some kind of disruption.

If you make a gameplan to disrupt slightly to open a window for yourself you are much more likely to win.  TPS has made history on this...so has every beatz deck and fish deck ever made.  You win fast, so you need a small window.  Every deck plays control at some point.  Where is that "who's the beatdown" article when someone actually needs to hear it???

Off of theoretical soapbox:

elves does not need more than green to win games, and it does not need gaea's cradle.  Duals and cradle make you manabase(which you already cheat on) very fragile.  Cradle is worse than a forest, and sideboard cards against chalice in colors other than green means that a well timed wasteland ruins you day.  By the time you get to abuse cradle, fastbond, or even yawgmoth's will you won't need them to win the game.  If you want consistent hands that win, drop demonic tutor, fastbond, cradle, and duals and just play elves.  You don't need the colors in your board anyway because green + free cards beat the crap out of the decks you are worried about.  Don't forget that you could probably beat belcher with 1 needle in play and a llanowar elf.  Or reanimator with a crypt in play and your opening hand's guys.

[TheShop]

3 taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Gaea's Cradle
1 Forest
1 Bayou

4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Elvish Visionary
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Eternal Witness
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Viridian Shaman

4 Land Grant
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Skullclamp
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Lotus Petal
1 Grapeshot
1 Crop Rotation
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor

I would drop
4 land grant
1 crop rotation
1 will
1 demonic tutor
8 nonbasics
1 eternal witness(questionable)
total -16

add
3 forest
8 sac land
1 regrowth
3 quirion ranger
1 ESG
+16

I bet this will win more fast and consistent that before and you manabase is solid

sorry for double post -iPhone

[Sharkles]

I haven't really been able to get a hold of those Quirion Rangers.  They're very elusive.  But I'll work on getting those and some green fetches.

EDIT: Why do you suggest all of the previous artifact destruction, (e.g. Seal of Primordium) over Krosan Grip?

Also, I run Witness over Regrowth because, since it's a creature I get a card from Glimpse and I can Clamp it.

[TheShop]

I haven't really been able to get a hold of those Quirion Rangers.  They're very elusive.  But I'll work on getting those and some green fetches.

EDIT: Why do you suggest all of the previous artifact destruction, (e.g. Seal of Primordium) over Krosan Grip?

Also, I run Witness over Regrowth because, since it's a creature I get a card from Glimpse and I can Clamp it.

On witness vs regrowth- i havent really had a reason either way and witness may just be better due to the fact that you can bounce and replay witness.

On Claim, naturalize, seal, and grip:

I dont like seal because it is not an instant, and because this deck has no need to mainphase it when the deck could be playing elves.  It being a permanent doesnt matter for this deck at all either...so I officially retired my seal of primordiums after Sphinx was printed and R/G beatz died altogether.

I dont really like Naturalize either, but at least it is 2 mana instead of 3.  Krosan grip begins to look ugly with even a single sphere in play...or when you have 2 mana instead of 3 when the opponent finds their timevault or something...Grip isnt bad, but it looks like a whole turn's mana investment early, which i feel may not be worth paying for...even to get a superior effect.  It is very good against belcher if you get priority before an activation.

Nature's claim is solid...but costs 1, which is the exact amount you will get chaliced for...I almost feel like you need to run answers to a range of casting costs.

[Sharkles]

Unfortunately Witness isn't an Elf so she can't be bounced.

Played today to establish my local meta.  Right now, there's the Iona deck and he does entomb, and Animate Dead to get her out.  Then there's a land deck that uses Cloudstone Curio and Fastbond to play out a land the gains life and a land that made me lose life.  The last deck was Erayo but he also has Goblins.  I know these decks probably seem like jokes to you guys, but that's my local meta.

In regards to the artifact destruction cards, Krosan Grip does indeed take up a turn but I haven't tried the other two.

EDIT:  I was able to use Viridian Shaman in conjunction with Wirewood Symbiote today, same amount of mana as Grip, but it's a creature.

[TheShop]

You should outrun curio or beat them with a host of artifact/enchant destroy out of the yard.  Goblins is a race, and you have the potential to be faster than them on average.  I did see someone running a few copies of elvish champion to beat aggro post board.

Yeah, I still think you beat Iona with leyline, tormod's crypt, and other yard hate in the board.  Game 1 is always race, and you should be greasy fast.

Your real problem is going to be when a small mategame starts to anticipate you running elves and sideboards board destruction like pyroclasm or chalice.