BWR Hate

[Onslaught]

I've been playing this a fair amount and it seems like something worth taking a look at to build upon. I used to think Hide/Seek would only be effective if they were light on victory conditions, but it's really been quite superb in stripping them of outs after some nice disruption.

4 Dark Confidant
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Hearth Kami
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Jotun Grunt

3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 Hide/Seek
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 STP
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Extirpate

3 Null Rod
1 Lotus
1 Jet
1 Pearl
1 Ruby
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Badlands
2 Scrubland
3 Plateau
3 Arid Mesa
2 Marsh Flats

SB: 2 Diabolic Edict, 2 Hide/Seek, 3 Yixlid Jailer, 2 Ravenous Trap, 1 Jitte, 2 Hearth Kami, 1 Darkblast, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 REB

It does well against non-fishy stuff, but the board should have more against Workshops probably. I'm not really sure what to do vs. Tarm and Pridemage and such, since they are just plain bigger and have countermagic. I guess it comes down to a question of whether or not non-blue Null Rod aggro is worth it solely for the unique combination/interaction of Tidehollow and Hide/Seek. If not, then other decks can emulate most of the effects this deck has in one way or another...sooo yeah.

[overseer1234]

I think you might what to check the "The Mountains Win Again" (TMWA) thread, as this deck has a lot of similarities with it.

Personally I don't think you need jothun grunt for yardhate when you have so many better options for GY hate in black, so maybe you can run grim lavamancer instead. It also improves your fish matchup

[vassago]

E_E is awful in this deck.

[limitedwhole]

You might try dropping the nullrods, and adding more shaman and another cannonist.  shaman is a one drop which this deck is lacking in.  There are a lot of two drops.  I like cannonist with shaman allot.  You might also want to try out leonin arbiter when it comes out.  Your main problem with this deck is going to be bigger creatures.  You mentioned tarmogofy, but Lodestones and sculpting steeled juggs etc are just too big.  you do have allot of removal for them though so i dont know.  I really dont like the lack of one drops and the nullrods.  I think you really want to play around shaman, leonin arbiter, and cannonist, but you need a 4th creature just for shop, maybe goblin vandal, kataki, or tinkerer, not sure.

[TopSecret]

With decks like this it's usually good to keep a metagame in mind or a subset of decks you want to target.

So what's the metagame you're preparing for? What decks do you want to be good against?
Such information would help others give you more constructive feedback.

If you want to look up resources for similar decks, plugging "tmwa" into TMD's search engine should probably give you some results.


You probably want at least 1 Diabolic Edict maindeck if you anticipate Tinker for Inkwell being popular.

[Tobi]

Playing Grim Lavamancer might enhance the Fish matchup.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Hearth kami vs shaman: Which has been performing better? If you're lucky, the answer is shaman and you can smooth your curve and play the arguably more powerful card. Kataki is another more powerful alternative and if you play against shops it should definitely trump kami in the sideboard. Duergar hedge-mage is a very greedy card, but your manabase should be able to support it. Maybe it warrants a slot in the main and one more in the side?

Grunt hoses goyf and welder and is your best clock. You could play 3 of them. Overseer is missing the point a little bit: You play him for his size and because he trumps goyf. Yardhate is just icing on the cake. Lavamancer is good though, and the two are not mutually exclusive.

Are the 3 REBs in the main really necessary? If you are so impressed with hide/seek, you might want to play one more in the main. Lightning bolt may be an alternative to REB. What are the blue problem cards in your meta?

[Onslaught]

You might try dropping the nullrods, and adding more shaman and another cannonist.

Null Rod aggro without Null Rods seems to be increasingly popular, but I don't know if it works here. You're right about needing more one drops though. Since aggro Workshop and Tarm/Fishy kind of decks are the biggest problem right now, I like Canonist staying at 3.

Personally I don't think you need jothun grunt for yardhate when you have so many better options for GY hate in black, so maybe you can run grim lavamancer instead. It also improves your fish matchup

I kind of want a 2nd Grunt just to slow down Tarm and outsize other Fishy creatures or trade with Lodestone.

So what's the metagame you're preparing for? What decks do you want to be good against?
Such information would help others give you more constructive feedback.

I don't really have a local Vintage metagame, so I'm just trying to prepare for the generally most played stuff.

Playing Grim Lavamancer might enhance the Fish matchup.

I'm having trouble fitting him, and I'd especially be wary of adding him if I fit a second Jotun Grunt.

Hearth kami vs shaman: Which has been performing better? If you're lucky, the answer is shaman and you can smooth your curve and play the arguably more powerful card. Kataki is another more powerful alternative and if you play against shops it should definitely trump kami in the sideboard. Duergar hedge-mage is a very greedy card, but your manabase should be able to support it. Maybe it warrants a slot in the main and one more in the side?

Grunt hoses goyf and welder and is your best clock. You could play 3 of them. Overseer is missing the point a little bit: You play him for his size and because he trumps goyf. Yardhate is just icing on the cake. Lavamancer is good though, and the two are not mutually exclusive.

Are the 3 REBs in the main really necessary? If you are so impressed with hide/seek, you might want to play one more in the main. Lightning bolt may be an alternative to REB. What are the blue problem cards in your meta?

Kami has been so much better than Shaman most of the time, even when I draw Shaman first turn. I still went ahead and upped the Shaman count to make sure I have something to do on the first turn of every game. I'll try out Kataki in the sideboard, I used to like him a lot. Hedge-mage is very interesting...

I'd be wary of a third Grunt, but I really want to try fitting a second one in. Would it be weird to put him in the board?

The REB slots were always in flux, and I've tried Bolt in that slot before. Bolt is neat in that it will kill Jace most of the time as efficiently as REB does, though the REBs let you do your normal early disruption and then use REBs to stop any draw spells while you lean on them with some beats and strip their final answers with Hide/Seek. Bolt would help with the creature problem a lot though...

Current list:

2 Shaman
4 Confidant
3 Tidehollow
3 Canonist
2 Hearth Kami
2 Mindcensor
1 Grunt

3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 STP
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Hide/Seek
1 Demonic
1 Vampiric
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
1 Extirpate

3 Null Rod
1 Lotus
1 Pearl
1 Ruby
1 Jet

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Badlands
2 Scrubland
3 Plateau
3 Arid Mesa
2 Marsh Flats

SB: 2 Hide/Seek, 3 Yixlid Jailer, 2 Ravenous Trap, 1 Jitte, 2 Kataki, 1 Darkblast, 3 Lightning Helix (testing)