T.O. Report: BLACK GOLD DISASTER

[aosquirrels]

WOW.  Only 5 players showed up for this event.  What's up with this guys? 

Was it....

A. Saturday is a bad day for me.
B. Don't want to play sanctioned Vintage.
C. I don't like playing at Black Gold
D. I forgot.
E. I thought it was Sunday.
F. I had better things to do.
G. Entry fee was too high. ($20 for really good cash prizes)
H. Other (please explain)

Our previous tournout was 10 players and now this.  I need a reason to keep running this events.

[Tha Gunslinga]

It was too far of a drive for me.

[personalbackfire]

Hmm I have been following your last two TO reports because I am considering moving to Denver and would like a place to play tournaments so I figured I would chime in.

Maybe the vintage scene over there needs to be rebuilt? I would suggest talking to the players that do come to your tournaments and asking them for thoughts on why others aren't showing up. If players are frustrated about a certain aspect of your tournament and you can make an easy change I think you would benefit from that knowledge. That probably involves talking to them in person though more so then over the boards.

As a player I really only want to know that the TO cares about what the players think. If I feel like they do then I am more inclined to show up to tournaments. (I am not saying that is the general feeling among your player base I have no idea just throwing out some ideas.)

Another thing you could do, not sure if you do is hold weekly proxy tournaments for small things like duals or forces or whatever. Find out which day works best for the people that are showing up and start holding them in the hope that it builds and you can run bigger tournaments for mox's and power monthly or bimonthly whatever it is.

I would also suggest moving to proxy events for most if not all of your tournaments. It is the normal standard in America for better or for worse. Personally, I never owned full power when I was playing heavily and winning it. Thats not to say I wouldn't like to have, but it is to say if events are sanctioned and aren't allowing proxies Im pretty sure I wouldn't make the trip.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Carl,

I love the tourneys you hold. However, it's simply unrealistic to run large sanctioned tourneys anymore. There's what, 10 people in all of Colorado who are fully powered? I don't think any nonpowered Vintage player wants to pay 20 to lose to those players. The fact that eternal ratings may matter (now that Legacy is picking up) just means more people are unwilling to play sanctioned Vintage.

Also, you might not want to schedule events when there are major tourneys. This weekend was GP Portland, and I know a bunch of my friends headed out west.

Weekly proxy events might not be a bad idea, but definitely keep the entry fee low ($5) if you want people consistently showing up.

I really do appreciate you running these Vintage tourneys, because they are a blast. Just consider that maybe sanctioned tourneys aren't the way to go.

Bob

[MaximumCDawg]

I would have been there to be everyone's non-powered, hate-bear slinging whipping boy... except that I had family duties.  If I had come, you would have had two more players, but one of them would have been 20 months old and difficult to convince not to eat other people's shiny cards.

I love the monthly tourney scene as much as I love your Thursday night events.  TO those considering moving to Denver, don't worry - the Vintage scene is vibrant and healthy.  I think we've just been unlucky.

Do you think you'd have any luck with asking people to RSVP?

[Ramses]

I understand that maybe the fact that it was sanctioned was part of the problem.  But the player count for the proxy events has also been dwindling.  I'm wondering if the vintage crowd here is just fading...  I hate to think that this is the case, because I really like the format, and I love living somewhere with a vibrant community, but I really am starting to wonder.  We get a solid 10 people for our weekly Thursday night games.

I'm with Carl here.  I'd really like to know what people would want to see out of a tournament.  Clearly what he's been running is not it.  Is there something Carl could do to get people showing up?  Should I just resign myself to playing with the same 10 people?  I like those 10, so I'm okay with that, but I used to think that we could get upwards of 30 people for a tournament.  Come on, guys, let's set down the specs for the tournaments we'd like to see.

Here's my list:
I like monthly or so.
Saturday vs. Sunday doesn't matter.
$10-20 is a fine entry fee.
I have the cards I need, so I don't need proxies, but I'm totally okay with proxy tournaments.
I want a TO who actually values the tournament.

I think that list satisfies my requirements.  What are others' thoughts?

[JACO]

1. Have somewhere between 10-20 proxies; the standard in America and to grab more people
2. Do NOT schedule events when other large events in the country are being held (SCG weekends, Pro Tours, Grand Prixs, nearby PTQs, etc.)
3. Have clearly outlined prize structure that you stick to
4. Schedule tournaments somewhat frequently to keep them in mind, but not too frequently (people tend to look forward a month or two to a special event)

I too am thinking about moving to CO and would like to see the Vintage and Legacy scene thrive. The two formats are closely connected (older player base, similar playables cardpools, etc.), so if you promoted both formats locally you'd likely get spillover from both crowds.

[bosoxdave]

A. Saturday is a bad day for me.
B. Don't want to play sanctioned Vintage.
C. I don't like playing at Black Gold
D. I forgot.
E. I thought it was Sunday.
F. I had better things to do.
G. Entry fee was too high. ($20 for really good cash prizes)
H. Other (please explain)

A.  Yes
B.  Absolutely will not play sanctioned.  I am not throwing any amount of money plus time away because I am not powered to any degree.  Nor will I play a sub par deck or a deck that isn't my preference, to play sanctioned.
C.  Not relevant (I.e. I like playing there just fine)
D.  Never intended to play this tournament.
E.  See D. 
F.  I suppose you could say that, see above.
G.  I like your 10 proxy events for $10 with the option to buy 5 additional proxies for $1 per.  This grows the pot, grows the player base and is not unreasonable.  It does require an investment into the format that is also accessible. 
H. 
i.  Not everyone will be able to make every tournament.  I understand your frustration since this followed a weak August showing, but I don't think that they are related.  This one, in my opinion, was almost exclusively about sanctioned.  There are three of us in Boulder that play/test vintage whenever we see each other (at least once a weak) but are no where close to powered.  There are a bunch more that like coming out to your sanctioned events when we can.  Honestly I think August was about simply bad luck with timing.  It is one of the most traveled months.
ii.  I would be interested in playing for power or other valuable cards instead of cash payout.  This may not be the popular opinion (and I know that you have done this in the past) but I play simply for fun and it would increase my fun to play for a card as compared to cash.  Again, I may be in the minority here and that is fine if I am.
iii.  A good way to grow the scene for your tournaments would be to offer a % discount off the entry fee to a player if they bring a new player to your event and the same % discount to the new player.  This encourages people to introduce friends/acquaintances to the format and more specifically to your store/events.
iv.  I know it is 'your thing' but maybe change the Thursday night Vintage at your store to non-sanctioned.  As many of the debates around here have mentioned, it is an intimidating format for younger/newer magic players to get into, especially when they don't have the card pool to be truly competitive immediately, especially in a sanctioned environment. 


Remember that these are all ideas and should be treated as such.  They are not criticisms, only suggestions and explanations.

Our previous tournout was 10 players and now this.  I need a reason to keep running this events.

Are you losing money on these tournaments?  I only ask this because if love for the format is not reason enough to continue the tournaments (assuming you aren't losing money on them - which based on your model for the tournaments I would imagine is a safe assumption) then perhaps you shouldn't waste your time on them anymore. 

[MaximumCDawg]

perhaps you shouldn't waste your time on them anymore. 

Whoa whoa whoa don't listen to this guy.  I value your weekly / monthly venue very highly.  I attend whenever real life lets me. 

I think the problem of low attendance stems from a few things:

1. Smallish scene.  There are, what, 30 or so Vintage players in the front range area that we know about? If any portion of these regulars are occupied, attendance at your events drops down.  Perhaps you could market some "intro to Vintage" nights at local FNM in other shops, if they'd let you.  Maybe have some proxilicious "store decks" that people who don't own vintage cards can pick up and sling.

2. Conflicts.  Like someone else said, I bet your biggest problem is when the hard-core group of vintage players are busy with other events.  Maybe avoid scheduling when there is a pro tour, worlds, or larger local event going on?

3. RSVP?  Perhaps you could offer a discount to people who sign up a week in advance? That would get people invested in attending and give you a better picture about who is showing up.

[bosoxdave]

I am simply saying that if the only reason Carl runs these events is to make money/not lose money/have high attendance then perhaps he is best served limiting the number of tournaments, or not running them at all.  If the reason he runs these tournaments is because he loves the format (which I suspect to be the case) then that is all of the reason that he will ever need!

But I could be mistaken.

[Tha Gunslinga]

This is why I quit running events, because I couldn't pull more than 20-25 people on a good day, and was getting 15 on a bad day.  I got tired of losing money and wasting my time running 4-round events and decided to call it quits.

[aosquirrels]

I appreciate everyones input on this matter.  All of the opinions/suggestions given in this thread have merit. 

I run Vintage events because I love the format.  Our Thursday night events are sanctioned with no entry fee and no prizes.  We get anywhere from 8 to 16 players who play for the love of the game. A few of us (me included) drive quite a ways to play on Thursdays.   I hope that never changes.

About 5 years ago I started running larger Vintage events on a twice a year basis.  Free entry fee and $100 in prizes!  That's right....FREE ENTRY and $100 in prizes.  At first we got 48 players and then it slowly went down to the mid 20's on a fairly regular basis.  I was then virtually begged to run proxy events with some sort of power as a prize.  I was assured that this woud increase attendance and help get players into playing sanctioned Vintage by winning said power.  Against my better judgement I tried running proxy events with a mox for first place and some other goodies for 2nd - 4th.  This turned out to be a major headache as players would rather sell the card back to me (which makes me lose money) or they would want to trade it for some other cards in my showcase whcih created issues in determining the value of the mox that was won.  Players couldn't just play in the event, win the event, and keep the fucking card.  This prompted me to have a very simple formula for prizes.  I keep 10% of the entry fees which usually amounted to $20 which in turn paid for my entry and some munchies for the day.  The rest of the entry fee money went to the T4.  I don't lose money and I play for free.  For this last year everyone seemed to be content with this approach.

I have switched to Saturday because Sunday is my day off and I don't want to ruin a day off to play in a poorly attended tournament.  I am at the store on Satruday anyway so this won't pose a problem.

There is no perfect solution to this.  So at this point, I will run another proxy event in October (it will be posted soon) and then wait until January for the next one.

Carl

[MaximumCDawg]

Slowing down on the monthly events huh?  Poop.  Still, thank you for keeping the faith on Thursdays.  Eventually I'll work something out with day care and start attending again.

Oh, and if I ever won a power prize tournament, you better believe I would "keep the fucking card."  It's a trophy.

[Shock Wave]

About 5 years ago I started running larger Vintage events on a twice a year basis.  Free entry fee and $100 in prizes!  That's right....FREE ENTRY and $100 in prizes.  At first we got 48 players and then it slowly went down to the mid 20's on a fairly regular basis.  I was then virtually begged to run proxy events with some sort of power as a prize.  I was assured that this woud increase attendance and help get players into playing sanctioned Vintage by winning said power.  Against my better judgement I tried running proxy events with a mox for first place and some other goodies for 2nd - 4th.  This turned out to be a major headache as players would rather sell the card back to me (which makes me lose money) or they would want to trade it for some other cards in my showcase whcih created issues in determining the value of the mox that was won.  Players couldn't just play in the event, win the event, and keep the fucking card. 

I still maintain that proxy events hurt Vintage more than they help it. One of the big reasons for this is as you have stated above; players have no incentive to keep the cards or work to win them. Back in the day, only a few people had power cards, and those who did not had to find budget ways to beat them, and they did. These days, players feel that they are entitled to playing with the power cards. It is a change in the Vintage culture that I feel is for the worse. In any case, I think it is commendable that you continue doing what you're doing. We are trying to bring back sanctioned Vintage on our area as well, and it is good to know that some TOs are doing the same.

[aosquirrels]

I still maintain that proxy events hurt Vintage more than they help it. One of the big reasons for this is as you have stated above; players have no incentive to keep the cards or work to win them. Back in the day, only a few people had power cards, and those who did not had to find budget ways to beat them, and they did. These days, players feel that they are entitled to playing with the power cards. It is a change in the Vintage culture that I feel is for the worse. In any case, I think it is commendable that you continue doing what you're doing. We are trying to bring back sanctioned Vintage on our area as well, and it is good to know that some TOs are doing the same.

Thank you!

[azureus485]

It also doesn't help that there was an anime convention over the weekend, and theres were a few of the regulars there so i think it may have just been a bad weekend for it.

[bosoxdave]

About 5 years ago I started running larger Vintage events on a twice a year basis.  Free entry fee and $100 in prizes!  That's right....FREE ENTRY and $100 in prizes.  At first we got 48 players and then it slowly went down to the mid 20's on a fairly regular basis.  I was then virtually begged to run proxy events with some sort of power as a prize.  I was assured that this woud increase attendance and help get players into playing sanctioned Vintage by winning said power.  Against my better judgement I tried running proxy events with a mox for first place and some other goodies for 2nd - 4th.  This turned out to be a major headache as players would rather sell the card back to me (which makes me lose money) or they would want to trade it for some other cards in my showcase whcih created issues in determining the value of the mox that was won.  Players couldn't just play in the event, win the event, and keep the fucking card. 

I still maintain that proxy events hurt Vintage more than they help it. One of the big reasons for this is as you have stated above; players have no incentive to keep the cards or work to win them. Back in the day, only a few people had power cards, and those who did not had to find budget ways to beat them, and they did. These days, players feel that they are entitled to playing with the power cards. It is a change in the Vintage culture that I feel is for the worse. In any case, I think it is commendable that you continue doing what you're doing. We are trying to bring back sanctioned Vintage on our area as well, and it is good to know that some TOs are doing the same.

And I still maintain that having people show up willing to devote a day to a format that isn't supported by Wizards and play Vintage, even while not having all of the cards, is far 'healthier' than 5 people playing against each other while powered up.  Getting people to consistently play a format that gets older by the day ought to be the end goal.  If they power up, great!  If they don't power up, well that is still another player to play against. 

Out of curiosity...

How long have you been playing Vintage?
Do you own power?  If so how much and when did you get it?  If not what do you play? 

I could be mistaken but it seems that everyone who is in favor of sanctioned Vintage has, A.  Been playing Vintage for a long period of time and/or B.  Owns power/all the cards they personally need to play Vintage. 

Maybe it bothers some people that they made an investment that others are not willing to make, but it all boils down to whether Vintage players want more people to play with or want to have a negative population growth and have the format die a far quicker death than some suppose is happening now.

As for your "Back in the day" section, why should people play a suboptimal list or even a list that they don't enjoy just because it is budget and therefore sanctionable?  What does sanctioning even do?  Provide ratings?  Frankly in Vintage it seems that the currency is more about respect as a skilled player than player ratings.  Not to say that they are mutually exclusive, but I can't remember the last time I saw a person post their Vintage rating on TMD let alone post it as a way of saying that they deserve respectability.

[captreynolds]

Since certain people were offended I am editing this to better explain myself & removing any offensive comments. My intent was not to start a flame war, just to explain my opinions.

I was one of the 5 people who showed. First I would like to commend Carl for putting up with us hooligans, and for coming through for us on Saturday & at least allowing us to have fun playing eachother. I know he had other things he could have been doing all day to help his business.
I have a few things to say for those who didn't come.

1. I don't think distance is an excuse for a Saturday Tournament. I rode 12.5 miles each direction on a bike to almost end up not playing at all.

2. Powered vs. unpowered should never be an excuse to not play. In fact I am considering building an unpowered vintage deck or possibly decks to try on Thursdays. [Edit: Also Carl usually has prizes for the best unpowered deck & I have seen them Top 8.]

3. Saturday is often a better day for a lot of people including myself, as Sundays I frequently have other things happening.

4. I dislike proxy events. I get a bit annoyed when I spend the time & invest the money to buy the cards to play & get beaten by an inexperienced player snot faced brat (no offense intended) with $1 proxy cards who net decks what won the latest big tournament that wins by being a bad player with a good deck. Topdecks happen...but playing vintage also requires skill. I agree that proxy events give core vintage players the cold shoulder because for those of us who have power we saved money & or invested the time to get the cards, it makes us feel like we could have better spent our time/money. Also it has been my experience that rules questions come up a lot more frequently in proxy events & since there are prizes involved an inexperienced player might still feel slighted if he/she did not understand the way upkeep in stax works & the vintage guru knew how to bend the rules in their favor. This was the whole premise behind changing how comabt damage worked in m10. For any new player there is a learning curve, but sometimes this can get a bit out of hand. Some of the more experienced players could help explain things to the newer players as they do them as well & not pressure new players into decisions.

5. It was posted for more than a month & it was made well aware this was on a SATURDAY!

I also have a few suggestions for Carl.

1. I like Saturdays. Don't change that please.

2. You might consider doing vintage every Saturday morning, & either the 1st or last Saturday of the month will be an event with prizes. The other saturdays could be unsanctioned to allow for playtesting & for proxies. If enough people show for the event this might be able to be sanctioned. (I miss playing every Sunday & wouldn't mind a 2nd vintage event every week.) Also having an event every week would mean you have a regular base of people coming on that day, which would be less likely to throw off people's schedules for larger events.

3. Do an intro to vintage tournaments during you FNM or Saturday night Standard events. The more unpowered rogue decks that end up in vintage the less prepared the powered decks will be. A lot of people just lose to hoards of goblins or elves a la grapeshot. I could list any number of decks that can turn the whole metagame on its head.

4. I like the idea to encourage people to bring friends to the format. If you continue to run proxy events the entry fee could be reduced to $10 for up to 15 proxied cards instead of just 10. Offer more reasonable prizes for proxy events. A mox is probably too much but a playset of Dual Lands or Force of wills which can also be used in Legacy is helpful to someone just getting started in the format. Allow them to exchange for cards of equal or lesser value, but no cash payout.

5. Promote your events a bit more on the Mana Drain. Not everyone knows your website. Make announcements every day to ensure that it gets noticed & stays at the top of the tournament announcements page. If major events conflict (gaming conventions, anime conventions, larger pro-tour or other magic events) then don't schedule another big event that weekend.

6. Make people RSVP &/or pay ahead of time to commit to the event, but allow them to cancel for a refund up to 24 hours in advance for a full refund. (Obviously were something like a car accident to happen then that could be forgiven.) You might also consider allowing people who do pay in advance to pay a little less. (ie. $15 instead of $20) to get interest & participation in advance.

I look forward to playing in more vintage events at Black Gold. You are the best Tournament Organizer I know.

[bosoxdave]

2. Powered vs. unpowered should never be an excuse to not play. In fact I am considering building an unpowered vintage deck or possibly decks to try on Thursdays.


4. I dislike proxy events. I get a bit annoyed when I spend the time & invest the money to buy the cards to play & get beaten by a snot faced brat (no offense intended) with $1 proxy cards who net decks what won the latest big tournament & wins by sheer luck that they drew a proxied card. Topdecks happen...proxies should not. I agree that proxy events give core vintage players the cold shoulder.

2.  Easy to say when you clearly have power.  

4.  WOW!  You say no offense after that?!  You, sir, are the kind of person that is DESTROYING this format.  Your holier than thou horseshit is so jaded it is unbelievable.  Let's count the insults in this section:

A.  Snot faced brat
B.  All those who proxy are net deckers.  With the added implication that those with power don't net deck.
C.  Those who proxy win by sheer luck

Without even going into the sheer absurdity of your claims, it is apparent that you are simply bitter that you cannot succeed at a tournament unless 5 people show up and odds are you couldn't even top four that one.  Perhaps your time would be better spent 'net-decking' instead of complaining about those who don't have the ability to drop $3000 for 9 cards alone, not to mention the other myriad of expensive cards out there.


I really hate getting personal like this, but you need to be put in your place if you think that the only reason people who proxy succeed do so due to net decking and luck.

[MaximumCDawg]

I really hate getting personal like this, but you need to be put in your place if you think that the only reason people who proxy succeed do so due to net decking and luck.

Coulda fooled me, man.  Proxy discrimination exists... no reason to get all snippy with him about it.  Infighting and insults like that damage the format, and the cohesion of the local group, alot more than prejudice does.

4. I dislike proxy events. I get a bit annoyed when I spend the time & invest the money to buy the cards to play & get beaten by a snot faced brat (no offense intended) with $1 proxy cards who net decks what won the latest big tournament & wins by sheer luck that they drew a proxied card. Topdecks happen...proxies should not. I agree that proxy events give core vintage players the cold shoulder.

I don't think that's right.  One would expect that an experienced Vintage player would hold an edge against someone who netdecked the night before, regardless of top deckin' it.  And, yes, this is a bad attitude to take towards a format where 90% of top 8 decks tend to all feature a bevy of cards that cost $200 - $1,000 a pop.  Given the entrance price, and given the basic lack of availability of power, you can't really grow the format without proxies.  That said....

3. Do an intro to vintage tournaments during you FNM or Saturday night Standard events. The more unpowered rogue decks that end up in vintage the less prepared the powered decks will be. A lot of people just lose to hoards of goblins or elves a la grapeshot. I could list any number of decks that can turn the whole metagame on its head.

This is what happens on Thursdays, and it's glorious.  I think we usually get one-half unpowered decks, and they can be anything from parfait to white weenie to BR Fish to who knows what.  It's a blast.  However, the powered decks do tend to win against the unpowered ones, weird meta or not, so it might be problematic to run sanctioned for prizes.  People who are only coming for the prize might consider it unfair.

5. Promote your events a bit more on the Mana Drain. Not everyone knows your website. Make announcements every day to ensure that it gets noticed & stays at the top of the tournament announcements page. If major events conflict (gaming conventions, anime conventions, larger pro-tour or other magic events) then don't schedule another big event that weekend.

6. Make people RSVP &/or pay ahead of time to commit to the event, but allow them to cancel for a refund up to 24 hours in advance for a full refund. (Obviously were something like a car accident to happen then that could be forgiven.) You might also consider aloowing people who do pay in advance to pay a little less. (ie. $15 instead of $20) to get interest & participation in advance.

I look forward to playing in more events at Black Gold. You are the best Tournament Organizer I know.

This is all totally true.  Especially the last bit!

[hazard]

Not that there is a huge overlap between Vintage Magic players and sports, but with the College and Pro football seasons beginning, that can become a factor of attendance on Saturdays and Sundays.

[Caselogik]

So for those who don't know my handle, this is Brian Grewe.

I play at Black Gold on Thursdays, as well as pretty every other Vintage event Carl runs.

I am pretty ashamed at how this conversation seems to have degraded. The reality is this, we play sanctioned Vintage on Thursdays. I don't want to see that change. I don't think those who show up on Thursdays want to see this change. The reality of the matter is this, Vintage requires an investment, but so does Standard, or extended, even limited. The bottom line is, Magic is a COLLECTIBLE card game, in which cards cost money. Read my next article on channelfireball, I am going to talk specifically between the investments required to play Vintage vs. Standard. But to give you all the cliff notes, Vintage is probably cheaper in the long run to play, but requires some sort of Up Front investment. If your not willing to make that investment, that's fine. Its your choice. we are not going to think any less of you because you don't have either the desire or the resources to pick up some cards. But please don't come in here and begrudge us, or call us elitists.

As for what to change, I remember distinctly having a conversation with carl about the dangers of having tourney's every month and that is, they lose their glamor. Maybe after October, it'll be nice to have a short break before the next major tournament. Also, maybe we need to change the format a bit. We could do 10.00 entry for cash tournaments up to 10 proxy, but for 15.00 they can have unlimited? Then people can't whine about not having cards as they could theoretically proxy every card.

Anyhow, do note that I appreciate the hell out of carl for having Vintage as their is a good chance I wouldn't play this game if I couldn't sling some Workshops every once in awhile.

[The Wolf]

The reality of the matter is this, Vintage requires an investment, but so does Standard, or extended, even limited. The bottom line is, Magic is a COLLECTIBLE card game, in which cards cost money. Read my next article on channelfireball, I am going to talk specifically between the investments required to play Vintage vs. Standard. But to give you all the cliff notes, Vintage is probably cheaper in the long run to play,

The reality of the matter is that his tournaments are failing.  Clearly it is everyone choice, and the choice they are making is to not invest.  It's nice you like sanctioned, but it sounds like its killing your scene. 
I really hope your including the intangibles costs (not being able to play magic while saving your money for vintage cards) in your article.  The articles that only lay out the prices of cards over time are just embarrassing.  

That being said, you have it right.  Paying more for proxies will enable people to play, but give them a reason to want power.  
Don’t fall into the unlimited porxy trap.  I have played against a kid with a deck 100% full of plains that were written on.  It was the opposite of fun.  

GL with keeping these going.  Small store support is the only way vintage is going to survive.

[MaximumCDawg]

The reality of the matter is this, Vintage requires an investment, but so does Standard, or extended, even limited. The bottom line is, Magic is a COLLECTIBLE card game, in which cards cost money. Read my next article on channelfireball, I am going to talk specifically between the investments required to play Vintage vs. Standard. But to give you all the cliff notes, Vintage is probably cheaper in the long run to play,

The reality of the matter is that his tournaments are failing.  Clearly it is everyone choice, and the choice they are making is to not invest.  It's nice you like sanctioned, but it sounds like its killing your scene.  

No it isnt.  Thursday is still healthy.  The monthly tournaments have also traditionally been healthy.  It's just the last two that sort of fell flat, and what with the end of summer holidays and conflicts, that's understandable.  I think we'll see a pick up in gaming when the winter clouds roll in and people want to stay indoors.

I am pretty ashamed at how this conversation seems to have degraded. The reality is this, we play sanctioned Vintage on Thursdays. I don't want to see that change. I don't think those who show up on Thursdays want to see this change.

I sure as heck dont either, but let's be fair.  Only one person was being crabby with vintage power cards in this thread, and he was prompted by a power-slinger referring to a person using proxies as a "snot-nosed brat."  I think the locals are all in support with the sort of mutual respect you're advocating, man.  No degredation here!

[captreynolds]

I made some changes to my original post. My intent was not to start a flame war. I was trying to explain my opinions on vintage proxy events.

On a side note:

Another suggestion would be for proxy events, only proxied power 9 cards would be allowed. This would level the field forcing people who have the cards to still proxy those which would limit their other proxys similarly to people who don't own power. I would like to know what thoughts & opinions people have on this idea.

Also I think prizes for proxy events should be things like a playset of one of the dual lands or other cards that are also useful in Legacy. I would like to know what other people think about changing the prizes as well. It seems to me that this would be an easier prize to handle since if the winner has the cards they can more easily trade them, or exchange them with the store for cards they need/want. A Mox to an unpowered player is a boon, to a fully powered play it is a hassle. People are always looking to trade dual lands or other vintage staples.

Several of Brian Grewe's articles outline how the vintage staples never really drop in value & can be valuable trading assets. This would help encourage new players to get started in the format.

[Delha]

Another suggestion would be for proxy events, only proxied power 9 cards would be allowed. This would level the field forcing people who have the cards to still proxy those which would limit their other proxys similarly to people who don't own power. I would like to know what thoughts & opinions people have on this idea.

People intuitively dislike when you take things away from them, which this clearly is. If you suddenly tell me that I'm not allowed to use the cardboard I paid $3k for, it's not going to go over well. This particular group might be an exception, but I kinda doubt it. Then again, it's not my locale, I could be way off base.

[policehq]

Another suggestion would be for proxy events, only proxied power 9 cards would be allowed. This would level the field forcing people who have the cards to still proxy those which would limit their other proxys similarly to people who don't own power. I would like to know what thoughts & opinions people have on this idea.

People intuitively dislike when you take things away from them, which this clearly is. If you suddenly tell me that I'm not allowed to use the cardboard I paid $3k for, it's not going to go over well. This particular group might be an exception, but I kinda doubt it. Then again, it's not my locale, I could be way off base.

I don't think he means you can't play your power. I believe he's saying the only proxies allowed are power 9 proxies.

[Delha]

People intuitively dislike when you take things away from them, which this clearly is. If you suddenly tell me that I'm not allowed to use the cardboard I paid $3k for, it's not going to go over well. This particular group might be an exception, but I kinda doubt it. Then again, it's not my locale, I could be way off base.

I don't think he means you can't play your power. I believe he's saying the only proxies allowed are power 9 proxies.

I thought that too at first, but the syntax made me reconsider. That said, the alternate meaning generates similar pushback. If I paid $3k for my power, why is it that the guy over there gets to use the same cards for free while I still have to go buy a legit Jace/Goyf/whatever? Either solution punishes the people who have invested in the priciest cards of the format, which is clearly a Bad Thing.

[DoubleDrain]

I was planning on attending this, but then a 5th seat opened up for a road trip to the GP. It was a chance to see my brother Josh and his wife, and other friends including Lou and Weeden, so in the end I had to bail on the Vintage event. I will try hard to make the next one. Don't give up Carl!

[aosquirrels]

I appreciate everyone's input in this thread.  There is no reason for me (or anyone) to panic at this point.  Our August tournament was not good due to bad timing and our last one was bad because it was sanctioned.  I get it.  I'll continue to run proxy tournaments but maybe not as frequent as we have been doing.  This will hopefully make each tournament something to look forward to.  The prizes for these will continue to be cash (% of entry fees) which keeps me from possibly losing money.  If attendance over the next few events is poor then I'll look at plan B, C, or D.   Just remember this guys.... regardless of how you or I feel about proxy vs. sanctioned - Saturday vs. Sunday - Cash prizes vs. Moxes, I'm still planning on running Vintage events.