Darksteel juggernaut

[Bibendum]

I like it not being blown up

[Leooooh]

Really interesting!!!
This guy can see play in MUD lists.
Supose you play, shop double moxen, or shop, crypt and chalice of the void, this guy will enter play as an indestructible 2/2 in the first turn. After that, each Sphere, Crucible, Rods and Golens will make it bigger, so in theory it will attack and disrupt at the same time, since you will make it bigger.!!!

I like it a lot!!!

[Troy_Costisick]

Yeah, I'd play this.  It's slower in the beginning, but the risks are way lower.  The longer the game goes, the meaner he gets.  Nice card.

[BruiZar]

Master of Etherium 5-8

[ReAnimator]

Really interesting!!!
This guy can see play in MUD lists.
Supose you play, shop double moxen, or shop, crypt and chalice of the void, this guy will enter play as an indestructible 2/2 in the first turn. After that, each Sphere, Crucible, Rods and Golens will make it bigger, so in theory it will attack and disrupt at the same time, since you will make it bigger.!!!

I like it a lot!!!

Actually this guy would be a 3/3 in your example as he does count himself.

[Hayek]

Is this thing really any good in MUD?  He costs one more than Juggernaut, likely doesn't get as big, doesn't have any form of evasion (this is huge), doesn't disrupt at all.  Honestly, I'm not convinced that being indestructible is worth all of these trade offs (Your opponent can just target other artifacts with their artifact removal.  Additionally, indestructible doesn't save him from E. Flux or Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall). 

I think the best thing to compare this to is Arcbound Crusher.  Personally, I'd rather have Crusher (Trample + costing one less + slightly better pump method).  Admitedly though, Crusher is sort of a poor top-deck in the mid to late game.

[SimoonDK]

I would certainly try this guy out. He doesn´t have great synergy with Smokestack though...

[Aace]

Very sure this guy won't get played. First of all, finisher spot is pretty tight in Stax, this unfortunately doesn't offer a body AND a usable ability, such as Karn or Steel Hellkite.
 
One of the best things about this thing, the indestructability, is rendered half as useful due to the fact that it can't block, so no Inkwell protection with this.
 
All in all, useless.

[BruiZar]

agree with aace. 5 mana is alot for this effect.

[TheShop]

 Think 90% of the time the removal spell that would be available to opponent to hit him with would be bounce anyway, and X/X is not as cool as it would have been had they made:

4
Artifact

Swing each turn
Indestructible

5/3

[BruiZar]

Think 90% of the time the removal spell that would be available to opponent to hit him with would be bounce anyway, and X/X is not as cool as it would have been had they made:

4
Artifact

Swing each turn
Indestructible

5/3

The other 10 % is swords to plowshares

[Troy_Costisick]

Think 90% of the time the removal spell that would be available to opponent to hit him with would be bounce anyway, and X/X is not as cool as it would have been had they made:

So what you're saying is Nature's Claim, Ingot Chewer, Seal of Cleansing, and Ancient Grudge are rather rare in this format?  I don't think so.  Comparing any card to a hypothetical card is just bogus.  One can always design a card that's better than something in print.  DSJ gets around several widely played cards that blow up artifacts.  Shop Decks are always vulnerable to Hurkyl's, so bringing it up is just a Red Herring to begin with.

[BruiZar]

So they´ll ancient grudge 2 artifacts instead and shrink your clock. Golems simply pwn Juggernauts

Karn, Silver Golem > Lodestone Golem >> Darksteel Juggernaut >>>> Juggernaut >>> Otarian Juggernaut :X

[TheShop]

Okay, hypotheticals aside:

This guy blows against hurkyl's, which is readily available to all blue decks, and he does not slow them down from casting it in any way(btw-lodestone does, that is why he is good).  

If this guy is ver played widely, hurkyl's will replace destroy effects and he will immediately be a liability.  All artifacts are definitely weak to hurkyl's, but those that prevent it's play and do something else are playable in my opinion(ie- all spheres, chalice, smoke, wire, lodestone, powder keg, ratchet bomb, null rod, even crucible...disrupt mana/spell playability).  For all intensive purposes, he is a vanilla beater that costs more and will likely be smaller than a jugg.  Jugg likely has a better clock to end the game before their answer occurs....

Not evaluating shop cards in terms of their interaction with the single best card at removing them strikes me as odd.

[Troy_Costisick]

So they´ll ancient grudge 2 artifacts instead and shrink your clock. Golems simply pwn Juggernauts

Shrinking your clock is better than getting rid of it altogether.  But anyway, I hope you don't think I'm advocating taking out Lodestone Golems for this thing.  Obviously, that's a bad call.

Shop, talking about this card being vulnerable to Hurkyl's is totall beside the point.  All artifact are vulnerable to it, even spheres!  Saying people will start running Hurkyl's is just silly because they already are.  Replacing regular old Juggernauts with DSJs doesn't make a deck any less or more vulnerable to mass blue bounce.  Your points on Hurkyl's are just are completely irrelevant.  No one is going to replace their disruption with this card (I would hope).  I don't see anyone suggesting they would.  Now, saying it has a slower clock and Juggs is totally legit.  It does.  I'm suggesting it may be worth the trade off in speed because it gets around so many hate cards.  In that respect, it's clock can be faster than Juggs because your opponent has to kill another artifact instead of what's killing him.  Juggs will be dead in the graveyard while this thing keeps pounding.

[TheShop]

Maybe you are right, and it would be impossible to disagree that he is worse against destroy effects.  However, being a hurkyl's inhibitor is a qualifying attribute of a stax card to me(even though I run tangle wire for lack of better options lo these past 10 years...).

I know you arent talking lock replacements, but quick note on sphere-  while not being immune to h-call, it puts h-call 1 turn further out of reach of opponent.  Not immune, obv...but an inhibitor.  Creatures that similarly inhibit make my list, like karn(quick death/kill mox), lodestone(sphere), and occasionally Titan.  Juggs(of both types) are out for me because they take the ability for the opponent to play removal in 4+ turns instead of immediately pushing it back.

"we can't give them time"

So, new juggs- not bad(5/10).  Good vs weenie aggro IMHO.

[Neonico]

Is this thing really any good in MUD?  He costs one more than Juggernaut, likely doesn't get as big, doesn't have any form of evasion (this is huge), doesn't disrupt at all.  Honestly, I'm not convinced that being indestructible is worth all of these trade offs (Your opponent can just target other artifacts with their artifact removal.  Additionally, indestructible doesn't save him from E. Flux or Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall). 

I think the best thing to compare this to is Arcbound Crusher.  Personally, I'd rather have Crusher (Trample + costing one less + slightly better pump method).  Admitedly though, Crusher is sort of a poor top-deck in the mid to late game.

It's alot better in Mud than juggernaut now that each control deck maindeck 3 trygon predators, some nature's claim and some tarmogoyf....
It's the perfect card for MUD actually.

[Troy_Costisick]

Is this thing really any good in MUD?  He costs one more than Juggernaut, likely doesn't get as big, doesn't have any form of evasion (this is huge), doesn't disrupt at all.  Honestly, I'm not convinced that being indestructible is worth all of these trade offs (Your opponent can just target other artifacts with their artifact removal.  Additionally, indestructible doesn't save him from E. Flux or Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall). 

I think the best thing to compare this to is Arcbound Crusher.  Personally, I'd rather have Crusher (Trample + costing one less + slightly better pump method).  Admitedly though, Crusher is sort of a poor top-deck in the mid to late game.

It's alot better in Mud than juggernaut now that each control deck maindeck 3 trygon predators, some nature's claim and some tarmogoyf....
It's the perfect card for MUD actually.

Can't believe I forgot to mention Trygon earlier. Duh!

[TheShop]

Is this thing really any good in MUD?  He costs one more than Juggernaut, likely doesn't get as big, doesn't have any form of evasion (this is huge), doesn't disrupt at all.  Honestly, I'm not convinced that being indestructible is worth all of these trade offs (Your opponent can just target other artifacts with their artifact removal.  Additionally, indestructible doesn't save him from E. Flux or Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall). 

I think the best thing to compare this to is Arcbound Crusher.  Personally, I'd rather have Crusher (Trample + costing one less + slightly better pump method).  Admitedly though, Crusher is sort of a poor top-deck in the mid to late game.

It's alot better in Mud than juggernaut now that each control deck maindeck 3 trygon predators, some nature's claim and some tarmogoyf....
It's the perfect card for MUD actually.

That's pretty 'matter of fact' considering they can nuke all the cards around it still and the fact that many MUD decks didnt run the original card this one is supposed to be replacing

[brianpk80]

It has its pros but I think any slot it would occupy is crowded out by some of the more disruptive critters in Scars, like the Hellkite or Forgemaster. 

[MaximumCDawg]

I think people who note this is immune to artifact removal are spot on.  Yes, Trygon predator can eat artifacts around it, but only at the rate of one per turn.  Opposing player is not gonna want to start Claiming your mox just to make this dude smaller.  He's the perfect answer for Fish, anyway; bigger than all of the Fish creatures and immune to Pridemage/Predator for the most part.  He also blocks Inky all day long, if it comes to that.

[theLastGnu]

*snip*
He also blocks Inky all day long, if it comes to that.

Darksteel Juggernaut is indestructable and attacks each turn if able.

[Neonico]

Is this thing really any good in MUD?  He costs one more than Juggernaut, likely doesn't get as big, doesn't have any form of evasion (this is huge), doesn't disrupt at all.  Honestly, I'm not convinced that being indestructible is worth all of these trade offs (Your opponent can just target other artifacts with their artifact removal.  Additionally, indestructible doesn't save him from E. Flux or Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall). 

I think the best thing to compare this to is Arcbound Crusher.  Personally, I'd rather have Crusher (Trample + costing one less + slightly better pump method).  Admitedly though, Crusher is sort of a poor top-deck in the mid to late game.

It's alot better in Mud than juggernaut now that each control deck maindeck 3 trygon predators, some nature's claim and some tarmogoyf....
It's the perfect card for MUD actually.

That's pretty 'matter of fact' considering they can nuke all the cards around it still and the fact that many MUD decks didnt run the original card this one is supposed to be replacing

I think that i really don't play the same game than alot of you TMDers....
Let me rephrase than....
In MUD Aggro, it's better than both juggernaut and Razormane masticore, whichever is played, simply because you can keep on applying pressure, even with a trygon predator or a tarmogoyf on your opponent's side. You should have deal your opponent enough damages before the situation occur to be in a good spot to win if they can just destroy everything else around the juggy.

Being 5/5 is also the reason why Rusted Relic is alot better than juggernaut, simply because it's harder for an opponent to just go tarmogoyf go, and being able to shut down your pressure. A creature that can just shut down all of your offensive weapon is alot scarier to face than just a chumpblock.

In my MUD aggro list, i think that my creature base will be 4 lodestone golem, 3/4 Rusted relic, 3 Darksteel Juggernaut. The possible inclusion i also consider is the 6/6 wurm that makes 2 3/3, but more in a stacker list.

Also, Forgemaster and Helkite are really great possible cards but totally uncomparable to rusted relic and darksteel juggernaut in Aggo lists of MUD for 2 reasons :
1) They are too expensive without Metalworker, so better in a more controlish MUD Shell
2) They cannot be played alongside null rod.

At best, considering how i play MUD, hellkite will be a gret sideboard card for me in every matchup i side null rod out.

[liontruth]

In the 5cc slot, i'll play Precusor Golem before this crap. If he cost 4 maybe i'll think about it.

Anyway, thanks wizards the name "Darksteel Juggernaut" kicks ass, but the card sucks though

[Neonico]

In the 5cc slot, i'll play Precusor Golem before this crap. If he cost 4 maybe i'll think about it.

Anyway, thanks wizards the name "Darksteel Juggernaut" kicks ass, but the card sucks though

Razromane is better if your problem isn't Tarmogoyf and Nature's claim.

[vassago]

This card sucks

[emidln]

In the 5cc slot, i'll play Precusor Golem before this crap. If he cost 4 maybe i'll think about it.

Anyway, thanks wizards the name "Darksteel Juggernaut" kicks ass, but the card sucks though

Razromane is better if your problem isn't Tarmogoyf and Nature's claim.

Razorcore is fine if your problem is Goyf. It's extremely unlikely that Goyf survives bolt + 5 first strike.

[Mantis]

I predict this card won't see play in Vintage, by the time you have a ton of artifacts out you should be hypothetically winning. Darksteel Juggernaut appears to be the epitome of winmore.

[vassago]

I predict this card won't see play in Vintage, by the time you have a ton of artifacts out you should be hypothetically winning. Darksteel Juggernaut appears to be the epitome of winmore.

Fact

[liontruth]

In the 5cc slot, i'll play Precusor Golem before this crap. If he cost 4 maybe i'll think about it.

Anyway, thanks wizards the name "Darksteel Juggernaut" kicks ass, but the card sucks though

Razromane is better if your problem isn't Tarmogoyf and Nature's claim.

Razorcore is fine if your problem is Goyf. It's extremely unlikely that Goyf survives bolt + 5 first strike.

I'ts extremely unlikely too that your opponent will block Razormane with Goyf if you already bolted it, he'll just race you and with you using tomb that's not a good situation