Smmenen
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« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2010, 12:58:19 pm » |
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FYI, the restricted list actually then falls to 44 cards, with Frantic Search and Gush unrestricted. It looks like this: • 14 Artifacts • 7 Black cards • 14 Blue spells • 3 Green Spells • 3 Lands • 2 Red Spells • 1 White Spell The explanation says that the new Vintage Restricted List will have 57 cards. That's not accurate. The restricted list looks more and more like the way I described it here : I think a helpful way (certainly not the only way) of understanding the modern Restricted list is that it is designed primarily to keep two decks in check: the Big Blue (primarily Mana Drain-based) Control Deck and the U/B Dark Ritual Combo deck.
There are only 7 Black spells on the Restricted List. Consider them: Four of them are abused by both the Blue Control deck and the Dark Ritual Combo deck (Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, and Yawgmoth’s Will). The rest are restricted on account of the Dark Ritual combo deck (Demonic Consultation, Necropotence, and Yawgmoth’s Bargain).
The same is distinction is true of the 16 Blue spells on the Restricted List. Many of them are abused by both the Control deck and the Combo deck (Ancestral Recall, Brainstorm, Mystical Tutor, Ponder, Time Walk, Tinker). However, increasingly, many of them are restricted on account of the Control deck (Fact or Fiction, Gush, Gifts Ungiven, Merchant Scroll, Thirst For Knowledge,). Almost all of the rest are restricted because of the Dark Ritual Combo deck (Frantic Search, Mind’s Desire, Timetwister, Windfall).
Most of the other cards on the Restricted List are restricted on account of abuse in either the Mana Drain Control deck (like Regrowth or Library of Alexandria) or the Dark Ritual Combo deck (like Burning Wish, Memory Jar, and Wheel of Fortune).
Pretty much everything else is either left unrestricted, with only a few notable exceptions, such as Trinisphere, or has been taken off the Restricted List in recent years (like Black Vise and Crop Rotation). Consequently, aside from the Mana Drain Control deck and the Dark Ritual Combo deck, most of the decks in the format resemble regular Magic decks rather than highlander decks. With Gush and Frantic Search off, the only remaining blue restricted spells are either clearly Drain cards or Dark Ritual cards. The Dark Ritual cards are Desire, Twister, and Windfall. The Drain cards are Fact, Gifts, Scroll, Thirst. And the cards abused both by both are Mystical Tutor, Time Walk, Ancestral, Brainstorm, Ponder and Tinker. The sole exception is really now Flash, which is neither a Ritual nor a Drain card.
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« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 01:10:48 pm by Smmenen »
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FlyFlySideOfFry
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« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2010, 01:08:31 pm » |
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I think the unrestriction of frantic search is much more interesting than the gush unrestriction. Its been 10 years since we could use frantic search and gush was a thing of the recent past. Frantic Search seems like a good way to achieve threshold, madness, storm dredge flashback and a very lethal yawgmoth's will. Some of those mechanics haven´t seen play in quiet a while, so I look forward to see how this takes shape.
This is what I was thinking. Frantic Search seems utterly insane in TPS or similar builds, especially the ones using blue for Jace already. -1CA and CMC=3 is insane against this control+shops meta how? The massive power of shops have been raping combo hard enough without the pilot running bad cards to help their opponent. Tolarian Academy is a good tool to get out of sphere locks. Frantic Search untaps it. I'm sure you knew this. If you have Academy out with enough artifacts to make FS a profitable mana investment you're already winning. It couldn't possibly be more win-more. FYI, the restricted list actually then falls to 44 cards, with Frantic Search and Gush unrestricted. It looks like this:
• 14 Artifacts • 7 Black cards • 14 Blue spells • 3 Green Spells • 3 Lands • 2 Red Spells • 1 White Spell
The explanation says that the new Vintage Restricted List will have 57 cards. That's not accurate.
Maybe they're lumping it with banned cards also?
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Mickey Mouse is on a Magic card. Your argument is invalid.
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DubDub
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« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2010, 01:12:22 pm » |
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I'm really happy about this, especially about Lauer's closing statement from his article: At worst, we suspect this is an experiment worth running again with other restricted cards. Indeed. This is the most important line in the article. It suggests a shift in DCI philosophy towards B&R changes; a change that has been long overdue and will get a warm reception from the Vintage community. I hope that they continue with this philosophy in the future. My only concern is how they will handle experiments that immediately go wrong. For example, let us say that changes are made that immediately break or warp the format. It could happen that the recent changes spawn a truly hideous, broken archetype. I do not believe this will be the case, but if it turns out to be this way, I hope we will not have to endure a prolonged period of time where the format is unsustainable. It took them nine months from the unbanning of Entomb to the re-banning of Entomb. Oh, I'm sorry, they actually 'fixed' Legacy by banning Mystical Tutor. So maybe we have until June 2011 to enjoy Gush before Dark Confidant is restricted?
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.
Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops. I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
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meadbert
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« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2010, 01:35:22 pm » |
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Gush is much better than Frantic Search. Compare Frantic Search and Careful Study.
They both draw and discard 2. Careful Study costs 1. Frantic Search is free if it is played on turn 3 or later. Frantic Search can be played on turn 2 for 1 or on turn 1 for 2. Frantic Search is instant speed.
I just do not see how Frantic Search is better except when Tolarian Academy is out. I know Cody Vinci use to do cool stuff like tap Library to draw, play Frantic Search untapping Library and getting back to 7 cards and then draw with Library again. Those plays are rare. Most decks that would run Frantic Search could probably run Careful Study instead and just be better. Careful Study is a solid card so none of this is to say Frantic Search is bad. It is just worse than other options.
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T1: Arsenal
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BruiZar
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« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2010, 02:14:18 pm » |
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It is just worse than other options.
Don't say this. Someone might restrict what's left.
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Eastman
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« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2010, 02:47:57 pm » |
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This looks fun.
I think the big story is the indication that they intend to make this a habit. Lauer says to end his explanation "At worst, we suspect this is an experiment worth running again with other restricted cards." I really like the idea of them pulling restrictions as experiments every six months or a year. Will keep the format interesting.
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meadbert
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« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2010, 02:53:11 pm » |
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This looks fun.
I think the big story is the indication that they intend to make this a habit. Lauer says to end his explanation "At worst, we suspect this is an experiment worth running again with other restricted cards." I really like the idea of them pulling restrictions as experiments every six months or a year. Will keep the format interesting.
I agree.
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T1: Arsenal
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2010, 03:00:39 pm » |
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This looks fun.
I think the big story is the indication that they intend to make this a habit. Lauer says to end his explanation "At worst, we suspect this is an experiment worth running again with other restricted cards." I really like the idea of them pulling restrictions as experiments every six months or a year. Will keep the format interesting.
This is also the best explanation we've gotten concerning a B/R announcement in over three years. I give them props just for doing that, especially in the busy spoiler season of SoM.
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AmbivalentDuck
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Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.
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« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2010, 03:38:44 pm » |
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With Gush and Frantic Search off, the only remaining blue restricted spells are either clearly Drain cards or Dark Ritual cards. Which demands a question: why not restrict both? Workshop has only forced the restriction of a single card and Bazaar hasn't forced the restriction of any cards. In a world with restricted Drain and Dark Ritual, many of the cards whose restriction they've forced can come off the list.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2010, 03:43:02 pm » |
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With Gush and Frantic Search off, the only remaining blue restricted spells are either clearly Drain cards or Dark Ritual cards. Which demands a question: why not restrict both? Workshop has only forced the restriction of a single card and Bazaar hasn't forced the restriction of any cards. In a world with restricted Drain and Dark Ritual, many of the cards whose restriction they've forced can come off the list. I used misleading language. By Mana Drain and Dark Ritual I was referring to archetypes, not just engines. In other words, I meant "Blue Based Control" and UB "Storm Combo" when referring to the ways in which 13 of the remaining 14 blue spells on the restricted list split up. Mana Drain and Dark Ritual could both be restricted, but I don't know if it would really change whether those 13 other cards could come off. Maybe some could, but maybe not.
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AmbivalentDuck
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Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.
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« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2010, 04:15:54 pm » |
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With Gush and Frantic Search off, the only remaining blue restricted spells are either clearly Drain cards or Dark Ritual cards. Which demands a question: why not restrict both? Workshop has only forced the restriction of a single card and Bazaar hasn't forced the restriction of any cards. In a world with restricted Drain and Dark Ritual, many of the cards whose restriction they've forced can come off the list. I used misleading language. By Mana Drain and Dark Ritual I was referring to archetypes, not just engines. In other words, I meant "Blue Based Control" and UB "Storm Combo" when referring to the ways in which 13 of the remaining 14 blue spells on the restricted list split up. Mana Drain and Dark Ritual could both be restricted, but I don't know if it would really change whether those 13 other cards could come off. Maybe some could, but maybe not. Well, here's Tom LaPille's Reasoning:Restricting Mana Drain might eliminate blue as a deck entirely, and it also would take away a large part of what makes Vintage special to many of its players. With the advent of Spell Pierce, we have evidence that the restriction of Drain wouldn't end the viability of "blue control." The second part is the real problem: emotional attachment to the card that's defined Vintage during every period other than the golden age of Gush. Thirst for Knowledge, Fact or Fiction, and likely Gifts Ungiven could come immediately off the restricted list if we restrict one card. Dark Ritual doesn't need to be restricted primarily because combo is presently "too hard" for easy kills and therefore unlikely to see mass adoption. It may not even be the most busted strategy in the hands of a skilled player.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2010, 05:09:36 pm » |
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Some fun facts about the Restricted List. First, I graphed the Restricted List changes over time:  Fun facts about the restricted list: * The smallest ever restricted list was 16 cards (February, 1994). * The largest ever restricted list 54 cards (January, 2004). * The single largest wave of restrictions was 18, which happened twice, January, 1994 and September, 1999. * The most cards ever unrestricted at once is 5, which also happened twice, October, 1997 and September, 2008. * The current restricted list is the smallest its been since April-August, 1999. Someone should cross-reference this chart against the number of cards in the card pool over that same time period.
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« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 05:24:00 pm by Smmenen »
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Shock Wave
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« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2010, 05:12:23 pm » |
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With the advent of Spell Pierce, we have evidence that the restriction of Drain wouldn't end the viability of "blue control." The second part is the real problem: emotional attachment to the card that's defined Vintage during every period other than the golden age of Gush.
Thirst for Knowledge, Fact or Fiction, and likely Gifts Ungiven could come immediately off the restricted list if we restrict one card.
That is quite a compelling argument, in my opinion. I have long thought that hitting Mana Drain would end the viability of blue-based control, but I am reconsidering that position based on your argument above. If there were ever a time to restrict Mana Drain, it would be now. Ironically, the best time to restrict Drain is at a time where it is at its weakest.
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« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 05:53:14 pm by Shock Wave »
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"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt
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AmbivalentDuck
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Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.
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« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2010, 05:33:38 pm » |
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It's not so much an argument as paired observations:
1) Spell Pierce replaced Drain in the Vintage Championship winning decklist. 2) Thirst for Knowledge was a restriction of desperation. Something had to be restricted to bring 2009's Vault decks down in power and Tom LaPille seemed afraid to choose Drain because we'd never known a world without it.
The immediate corollary is that with the information we have now, we can tell Tom2009 that Mana Drain could have been restricted and Thirst left alone without blue control becoming nonviable if they'd waited for the release of Zendikar.
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Cyberpunker
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I just gotta topdeck better than you ^_^.
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« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2010, 07:00:24 pm » |
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Haha nice, is GAT back? No... And why not? We have Preordain and 1 Brainstorm and 1 Ponder. So it is not like we don't have any cantrips. Maybe Frantic Search can help too...
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policehq
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« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2010, 09:42:06 pm » |
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Wait, why restrict Mana Drain at this point, though? As a card, it isn't really even seeing as much play as Spell Pierce. I think Mana Drain can stay unrestricted while Fact is unrestricted.
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TopSecret
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« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2010, 09:55:41 pm » |
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Good thing they're printing Tunnel Ignus!
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Ball and Chain
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Cant See
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« Reply #47 on: September 20, 2010, 10:24:32 pm » |
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Good thing they're printing Tunnel Ignus!
While I'm sure this was sarcastic and just sort of off, it does lend to an interesting take. IF gush becomes rampant in more than one archetype, I could easily see some sort of deck with red mana using this as blanket-hate that also turns sideways. It passes the clock test and could possibly be relevant against nearly all non-dredge/shops decks, especially decks packing lots of jace/cobra/sorcery speed stuff.
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Shock Wave
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« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2010, 11:09:17 pm » |
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Wait, why restrict Mana Drain at this point, though? As a card, it isn't really even seeing as much play as Spell Pierce. I think Mana Drain can stay unrestricted while Fact is unrestricted.
The suggestion was raised so that other cards could come off the restricted list. I am fairly certain that cards like Fact or Fiction, Gifts, and TFK could come off if they did not have Drain to help support them. I am not saying that it is the right thing to do, but if we really wanted to bring those cards off the list, I think having Drain restricted would help prevent nonsense from ensuing.
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"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt
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LotusHead
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Team Vacaville
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« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2010, 01:20:05 am » |
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"drain being restricted" is nonsense ensuing.
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serracollector
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« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2010, 02:14:04 am » |
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just make it a simple rule, if it makes more mana than wat it costs or is mana drain, ancestral, time walk, and force of will, then it should be on the restricted list. Everything else can come off. No rituals of any type, and no more tinderwall/spirit guides. 
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B/R discussions are not allowed outside of Vintage Issues, and that includes signatures.
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The Atog Lord
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« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2010, 02:52:51 am » |
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if it makes more mana than wat it costs...then it should be on the restricted list Do you really want to restrict Basic Plains? 
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The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
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LotusHead
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« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2010, 03:06:44 am » |
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Islands should at least be on their watch list.
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beder
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« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2010, 05:19:05 am » |
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just make it a simple rule, if it makes more mana than wat it costs or is mana drain..., then it should be on the restricted list.
Following your rule, Ancient Tomb should soon get the axe. Hum, now that I think about it, it wouldn't be so surprising if MUD increases its recent domination
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