5 Color

[TheShop]

I make no attempts at saying that this is optimal, but isnt the resurgence of blue instant-speed draw the opportunity to give 5-color a foothold back into the format?  The combo that kept it out during the last era of Gush is no longer playable (Flash=banhammer).  Also, blue players may begin to cheat on their lands and run dead cards against us like Misdirection again.

I think its time to dust off some old favorites and give it this thing a try. 

Card options that were previously dead, but now...good:
In the Eye of Chaos
Chains of Mephistopheles

Both of these don't get bounced by Hurkyls and both completely annihilate GAT's victory strategy (draw..draw...draw...draw..yaw n...draw...oh shit, I win!)

Another Option-
Swords- we have the ability to play swords and nuke their Cobra. (also works on tinker targets as well...)

there are a few others, but let me make the most controversial point of all and answer the biggest question-
Where is the room to put this stuff?

-Welder
-Tangle wire

Both wire and welder are of only marginal use when opponent returns their lands, and plays the game ending spell at instant speed.  I think if we look at builds from the pre-"4 welders or you suck" era (when people actually had to deal with instant speed draw and Gush), we will see that several successful decklists ran permanent solutions aimed in the face of their core engines.  The problem then, was that it took 5 years to kill the opponent or you had to run cards that did not facilitate the lock. We now have lodestone, and the more they optimize into a cheated manabase and instan-speed blue cards, the more we get to smash face with legends enchantments and the deck's already inherent LD.  5-COLOR WAS CREATED TO BEAT THIS DECK.

The real issue will be whether 5-color can beat dredge, oath, fish...and others while aiming at the top...and how much metagame Gush soaks up.

Discuss!

[Cruel Ultimatum]

Personally, I feel as that the extra 4 spheres (lodestone) golem is better then in the eye of chaos and chains are better. The MUD decks have a faster clock, as long with more spheres that punish the gush decks.

[Leooooh]

Hey

I think it is too early to say anything about the new Gush era. Their decks are now wickened with the restriction of brainstorm, ponder and mainly merchant scroll. Also, while they have lost those key cards to GAT or Storm Gush decks, we now have Lodestone Golem, that interferes in the resolution of Dryads/Goyfs and Gush/Cantrips.

Also, MUD is quite powerfull now, with even more spheres than in the past and with a better clock.

Let's wait a couple of weeks and see how the new meta will be. If the decks became too dependant of Gush, than your advise of running those Legends enchantments will be more than useful.

The real issue will be whether 5-color can beat dredge, oath, fish...and others while aiming at the top...and how much metagame Gush soaks up

The 5c manabase has the best asnwers to every deck, since we can run any color.

For example:

Ray of Revelation - More than amazing against oath
Nature's Claim - Hits everything we need to hit, and its cheap like no other.
Ancient Grudge - Is the nuts againstother MUDs lists and Mirror matchs....Hits vault and ther things
Leyline of the Void/ Jailer/ Planar Void - The best Ichorid hate, and if they got bounced like Leyline, we do have the mana to play it again
Swords - No need to say anything about this amazing card.

As you can see, we do have the best answers, so it's only a matter of tunning the sb to a specif meta.

[punki]

Just got 3/4th in a 28 people tournament with this list:


5mox
lotus
manacrypt, vault, sol ring
4 shop
3 waste
2 strip
1 tolarian
4 city brass
4 gemstone mine

4 welder
2 monkey
2 sylvok replica
1 moriok replica
1 sundering titan

2 ancient grudge
3 liquimetal coating
demonic
vampiric
ancestral
tinker
1 contagion clasp
4 tangle wire
4 smokestack
Trini
3 sphere resistance
3 crucible

SB
2 arcane lab
2 mindbreak trap
3 REB
4 leyline
2 jailer
1 sylvok replica
1 in the eye of chaos

The idea is: Having answers in stead of threats + a lot of artifact removal for the shop matchup, together with liquimetal coating you can punt any deck on zero permanents within a few turns, follow it up with a sphere and your set.

The deck has not been tested outside that one tournament and I feel there is room for improvement.

very short report:
rnd 1 goblins; 2-0
the replica's blocked the goblins until tangle and smokestack took over and coating + artifact removal cleared his board. After sideboard he sided in a lot of removal, but welder kept getting back what I needed until he was locked down.

rnd 2 cobra tez 2-0
both games I kept the board empty on the other side, tinkered titan and won easy

rnd 3 combo 2-1
All the games involved clearing his board of mana and getting trini inti play. The game I lost, I punted because I got crucible instead of trini for some reason. His SB plan involved goyf and confidants. I stayed alive by chumping goyf with the replica's, wasting his lands, throwing down a sphere and then removing the goyf with smokestack.

RND 4 and 5 ID

Top 8: combo: see the games before
top 4 tez: mulligan mistakes and well times thoughtseize send me home.

Never play your spheres first with this deck, they are there to seal the deal 

[Troy_Costisick]

I see you did not choose to include Mox Opal in your list.  Was it too risky?  Did the metalcraft requirement turn you off from it?

[Marske]

@Punki,
Congrats on the finish, the list sure looked very interesting from what I saw when viewing you play it. I'm very curious about how the Replica's held up their end. They don't seem all that hot to me. Also, did you ever use Contagion Clasp ?

[punki]

@ the new mox: I don't like conditional cards, but I didn't even think about playing it because I do not own one.

@ the replica's: I expected more oath, the sylvok replica also is extra artifact removal against shops (artifact creature so almost not affected by spheres and chalice) The fact that they can block was pretty relevant all day. The moriok replica is an insane drawengine with a welder out. It's not crucial, but it saved me once by digging a little deeper to get me my hard lock that I needed. But could be an imperial seal if I don't expect to much MUD.

@ contagion clasp: the -1/-1 counter was somtimes relevant and it's excelent counterbait. The tap ability is almost irrelevant because 4 non shop mana is rare and I usually weld my moxes out for relevant lockpieces. But it is potentially reusable removal for X/1 creatures and I included it over the darkblast I usually run.

[limitedwhole]

Is Icy Manipulator any good?  It can be used to tap basic islands, tap trygdon predator, tap oaths creatures, tap dryad, tap islands on upkeep forcing them to gush on upkeep and lose the mana, tap other players juggernauts etc.

[the42up]

@Punki,
Congrats on the finish, the list sure looked very interesting from what I saw when viewing you play it. I'm very curious about how the Replica's held up their end. They don't seem all that hot to me. Also, did you ever use Contagion Clasp ?

I have been playing with contagion clasp in MUD shells with some interesting success. The -1/1 is nice for a quick kill of something annoying, but a perpetual tangle wire (or even worse if you use two clasps) or a smokestack that ramps twice as fast is no joking matter.

They can also make a gemstone mine that never goes away in 5C lists. All in all, there are quite a few tricks a contagion clasp can pulll if you have 4 mana to fiddle around with (which i usually do in mud builds).

[punki]

The list is missing 3 liquimetal coating, I played 61 cards

And only one girl in t8: Brenda

[Bomberman!]

Where are all my 5c stax fans????!!!

a couple of month's ago i thought that 5c had no chance since the whole metagame swithched... i tried playing but saw that it was not as solid as MUD... then a couple of weeks ago i created this...   My old Staxless STAX!  the same deck that made me top 8 numerous times in Italy (I live in Italy) and even one me my first tournament.. (won a mox sapphire!)

all i did was update the list a little and....   wuuaaalllaaaaaaa!     on mws i'm on a 10-2 streak... (i only play against competitive deck)

here it goes...
STAXless STAX!   

2 MOX OPAL
5mox
lotus
manacrypt, vault, sol ring
4 shop
4 waste
1 strip
1 tolarian
4 city brass
2 gemstone mine
1 bazaar

4 welder
2 monkey
1 sundering titan
2 wurmcoil engine
1 triskelion

crop rotation
balance
2 chalice of void
memory jar
demonic
vampiric
ancestral
tinker
4 tangle wire
2 ratchet bomb
Trini
4 sphere resistance
2 crucible

SB

2 chalice of the void
3 REB
2 tomod's crypt
3 relic of prog
3 sylvok replica
2 ancient grudge

...tangle wire is my personal time walk...and the 2 mox opal replaced my then good friend relic for colored mana.
i have a good matchup against pretty much anything on the field, i might wanna change the ichorid side, but so far so good.

[punki]

what's the reason it is staxless? Do you think smokestack is to slow? I play a simmilar list but no chalices and no ratchet bomb and a few other small changes.

Isn't chalice a liability as a two-off with all the one mana costers in the deck?
Why 2 mox opal? I run only one and an extra gemstone mine and I never have manaproblems

[Bomberman!]

The main reason is so i have a low mana curve, ratchet and gorilla cost way less and sometimes do allot more than a single smoke on the field. Reason 2 is that allot of times playing against aggro/aggro control decks where they play waste, playing a first turn smoke is kind of risky... allot of times they waste me and if i don't have lands in hand it's usually game over.obviously the deck play's different from traditional 5cstax since the main concern is to land a welder, play tangle wire as a time walk.. and really be good with timing to lock opp out. if you've been playing traditional stax you may need to practice a little, but in the end it pays off.. =)   (plus i like staxless since i won my first tourn with it ^^ )

personally i think smoke sometimes just becomes too slow.. mid game i draw smoke and have to wait at least 3-4 turns before it actually hurt's the other player board.  why not have monkey destroy all the artifact's just for one mana and can start doing something in the first turn? or even better have the same effect with ratchet bomb...  what does smoke kill that other cards in my deck can't? 

first i'll answer the third question...  i tried playing with 4 mox opal but it was too risky... and allot of times was a dead draw in late game... plus if i ever played a chalice for zero in the first turn opal would be useless. so i tried 2, and have to say that i never have color problems, my old list ran 4 city-2-gemstone-1barbarina- and 1/2 relics... the only prob was relic cost 3 and kind of slowed me down..now with opal the deck is so much smoother...haveing 2 artifacts in play is real easy and having one more colored mana never hurt's 5cstax.
you should try it out and let me know how it plays for you.

..No, since i play 2 and chalice is God when played on the first turn for zero... and late game for 2.  no reason runnning 4 where sometimes against decks like Mud-fish.ect it's really useless and hurt's you more than them...  same goes for playing 3, so i tested and saw 2 was the right number...  I never play it at one in the first turns.so far never had problems.

[TheShop]

If smokestack were to take 4 turns to damage their board, then your average opponent must have in excess of 6 permanents...for it not to slow them I would think more like 9-10...if this is a common scenario for you, your build or playstyle probably needs serious adjustment

[Bomberman!]

If smokestack were to take 4 turns to damage their board, then your average opponent must have in excess of 6 permanents...for it not to slow them I would think more like 9-10...if this is a common scenario for you, your build or playstyle probably needs serious adjustment

Let me explain myself better, i never said that it's a common scenario..just said that sometimes in a late-mid game smokestack is sometims useless... =)
A mid/late game scenario...

Me= draw smoke and play it... 1.turn does nothing...
                                          2.my turn, i pass does nothing...
opp=i sac one of my useless permanent...
Me=                                    3.i sac my own perm...
Opp= (4 turn and now smoke becomes dangerous for them)

My take on it why not have something faster that impacts the game in a quicker maner like ratchet bomb, or shaman.. 

I love smoke.. and sometimes it helped me win games.. but i prefer my stax ..staxless

[Will]

If smokestack were to take 4 turns to damage their board, then your average opponent must have in excess of 6 permanents...for it not to slow them I would think more like 9-10...if this is a common scenario for you, your build or playstyle probably needs serious adjustment

Let me explain myself better, i never said that it's a common scenario..just said that sometimes in a late-mid game smokestack is sometims useless... =)
A mid/late game scenario...

Me= draw smoke and play it... 1.turn does nothing...
                                          2.my turn, i pass does nothing...
opp=i sac one of my useless permanent...
Me=                                    3.i sac my own perm...
Opp= (4 turn and now smoke becomes dangerous for them)

My take on it why not have something faster that impacts the game in a quicker maner like ratchet bomb, or shaman.. 

I love smoke.. and sometimes it helped me win games.. but i prefer my stax ..staxless

I think your issue is that you are severely undervaluing Smokestack and what it can do.  Most importantly it answers all permanents specifically Basic Land in a single card, something that the other cards in your deck can't do.  Second, the whole 4 total turns until it's effective when compared to Gorilla Shaman or Ratchet Bomb doesn't hold water because Ratchet Bomb is a one shot deal and Mox Monkey is limited to what it can deal with.  I'll agree 100% that both are better at dealing with Moxen or the like quickly but once Smokestack gets going it should win you the game.  The only time it won't is when your first relevant play of the game is Smokestack on Turn 3 or 4 and you are hopelessly behind in which case you either got blown out or should have taken a mulligan.  IMO the optimal way to work is using Ratchet Bomb and Gorilla Shaman to answer Moxen and then playing a Smokestack to deal with the Basic Land you otherwise can't answer with any consistency. 

[punki]

I slo think not running smokestack is a mistake unless your meta consists of almost nothing but fast combo.

I compare the staxless list to my own and roughly I would say you run 2 chalice and 2 ratchet bomb where I would run smokestack. I would like to include those two cards in my list, I haven't found the space,  but I would never cut smokestack because it has so much synergy with the rest of the deck.

I'll throw out my list for feedback. At the moment I have a slightly positive result in testing matches in our testgroup and in the last 3 tournaments together I'm 29 wins - 11 losses and 1 unintentional draw.

My list and explanation of the choices and evaluation of some of the cards:

First: this maindeck and especially the SB where for a tournament with a lot of stax/mud

The manabase: I run mox opal as a sixth mox and 1 gemmstone mine more than some lists just bacause I feel the collored spells are very important.
5mox
lotus
manacrypt, vault, sol ring
4 shop
4 waste
1 stripmine
1 tolarian
4 city brass
3 gemstone mine
1 mox opal

1 bazaar of baghdad  I used to run more, but it felt clunky, so I cut them and added a crop rotation. I almost never tutor up the bazaar and almost only want it is I have an active welder. It also works very well with vampiric tutor: put a gamebreaker on top, bazaar it to the graveyard and weld it in. (I mostly do this with a wurmcoil engine and it gave me many games)

4 welder no explanation needed, tangles, bazaar and smokestack all want welders
1 sylvok replica I want 4 between sideboard and maindeck. This time the SB was full, so it went maindeck (also lots of shops) Why do I love it so much? takes out leyline and bridges against ichorid, takes out everything in the mirror and dodges chalice @1 and 2, can be recurred with welder, chumpblocks against aggro decks, takes out energy flux, oath and serenity and there is always an artifact you want to destroy, even if it is just to help them make a choice what to sacrifice to smokestack or what to tap to tangle wire. I took out moxes, just zo they would have to sac or tap a land. Having it on board with a green mana available also stops the 'I topdeck TV or key and win now' scenario's. And on top of that: it kills sphinx of the steel wind for one green mana.
1 sundering titan: tinkertarget and hardcastable and complements the rest of the manadenial plan. Sadly I'm often forced to use it to blow up a single land to stay in the game mostly because of the low count of spheres in my build.
2 wurmcoil engine Could be only 1, I just love the card atm so I run 2 and never regret seeing it.
1 triskellion to fall back on, but in all those games almost never seen it or used it. Once it teamed up with a relic from the sideboard to take out a goyf and two basking rootwallas. That's the most use I ever had out of it.

1 Balance a sometimes much needed reset button aginst fast aggro of to stop a combo opponent from sculpting their hand. Also plays nice with wurmcoil engine.
2 ancient grudge A bit of a metagame call this time, but I would almost everytime run 2, same reasoning as the replica: You can almost always find something to take out with it and it is a backup against the topdecked TV and key
demonic imho tutors are what makes 5c viable
1 crop rotation see reasoning behind the lonely bazaar. Also great against wastelands and to get strip-lock
vampiric
ancestral I almost always want to cut it, but it makes me feel better knowing it is in the deck, especialaly whan I have to take multiple mulligans.
tinker mostly for the titan. I sometimes feel I do not run enough big artifacts to really justify running tinker. It's mostly a tutor and imperial seal is a card I would also like at a lower cost, but it also has a much lower impact and doesn't put titan in to play in the first turns when needed.

the lock pieces: I run less and manage to control the game with the following, backed up by welders and tutors.
4 tangle wire
4 smokestack
Trini
3 sphere resistance
3 crucible (3 because I love random watse or strip lock, especially with the croprotation and other tutors. I want this card to show up regularly in my hand without having to waste a tutor on it. Also great with agressive smokestack ramping, trying to find a welder in the meantime.

SB

I ususally run 3-4 mindbreak traps because the combo matchup is difficult. This tournament I saw little combo players and many shops so I switched them for 1 grudge and 2 needles (also some ichorid spotted)

I always start out with:
3 sylvok replica
4 REB (or maybe 3)
I almost always want those cards because they are so versatile against the field.

Than the anti ichorid package:
2 T crypt
3 relic progenitus
I like these because they are easily castable, you can tutor them and they are reusable with welder. Ichorid fights these with white leyline and sometimes needle, So I need my 4 replica's to take care of those, block zombies and sometimes remove bridges.

the metagame call in this case, or in other cases the anti combo slots together with REB and one or two crypts
2 Pithing needle
1 ancient grudge


Cards I sometimes miss in this build:

gorilla shaman or ratchet bomb
chalice of the void
in the eye of chaos

Cards I've tried before, liked but put aside for the moment:
Liquimetal coating

[Bomberman!]

I can see where you guys are coming from... I too thought the samething. I played my first tournament with a 5c stax (i choosed staxless) and won my mox sapphire... then i played other tournaments and got 3 times in top 8 and once finals for a mox pearl but lost to a U/w Fish (my fault since i tryed a OATH side in a stax deck   -.-  yes i'm crazy i know...)
then i thought to myself that smokestack was a really strong card not to play... so i threw it in and played a couple of other tournaments only to see my but being whooped in the finals for a black lotus to a U/R fish....    (I HATE FISH!!!)
all this to say that against creature heavy decks... i see smoke not that good... i have wurmcoil to handle that plus rathcet, then have monkey to deal with pesky artifatcs that might bother me. also against Mud or other 5c builds i see my staxless deck more favorable on winning...

Punki...here is my old list that had smoke ratchet and chalice...

4 mishra
4 waste
4 city brass
2 gemstone
strip
tolarian
bazaar
barbarian ring

5 mox
black,crypt,vault,sol
1 coalition relic
3 sphere
trinisphere
3 smoke
1 ratchet
2 chalice
memory jar
4 tangle wire
3 crucible
sundering titan
triskelion

4 welder
2 monkey's

tinker
vamp
demonic
crop
balance
ancestral

SIDE.....
1 aura fracture
1 chalice
1 choke
2 red blast
1 triskelion
1 duplicant
3 leyline
1 tormod's crypt
1 pyroblast
1 rack ruin
1 shattering spree
1 darkbalst
1 jester's cap

[punki]

interesting list, especially the sideboard. Aura fracture is very interesting, but I think sylvok replica is better in my meta.


I'm going to try and attend a tournament this weekend and try a new permutation of a 5c list, maybe with smokestack, maybe without it.


I'll probably start with your list and try to squeeze in wurmcoil and replace the relic with mox opal. I also don't know if I'm ready to let go of the maindeck artifact removal and the 4th smokestack, but it's a small tournament so I'll just give it a go 

I see you often run memory jar. Is it worth the slot? I see it a lot in stax, but I never tried it.
The lonely barbarian ring is also often played, but I'm afraid it's squeezing the manabase to much and doesn't often come online fast enough. Even in Ubastax with 4 bazaars and 4 B-rings it often took too long to come online for me. What is your experience with the card?

And a final question: I find I have trouble with other decks that bring in graveyard hate. At least more than I would have expected because I really count on my welders and crucibles, especially in the shop matchup, a relic on the other side is very anoying. How do you deal with that? I usualy take out spheres for some artifact removal, but never want to waste my removal on relics and crypts. Also metalworkers on the other side often spell doom if cast the first two turns. So much I would consider running null rods, but it sounds suicidal in a 5c build to run rod.

[Bomberman!]

yes i too think that the replica is better, but this was my old list back in late 07-08 if i'm not mistaken...the replica is the cards that i always wished for since i had trouble with oath sideboard... since i loved ray of revelation but i also loved playing chalice at 2, so i had to change.

If i had to bring my list i would def take out relic and maybe barbarian for 2 mox opal, the rest i would preatty much leave it as it is... but i too love the wumcoil, but i just don't know what to take out... it's a tough one.. trust me, 3 smoke is the perfect number..and the casual ratchet bomb goes great!

I LOVE MEMORY JAR! i see allot of top players never playing it in their list, or having something to say bad about it...  i think of it as an extra "counter this card or i win" thing... plus 5cstax having no draw engine u usually have to go in top deck mode, i prefer drawing memory than a smoke...
Not to mention how many games it won me...!

now with barbarian.. the whole idea i loved from the very begining. killing fish creatures, maybe the welder war, or just killing thee oppo with crucible ring recursion... but out of all my testing and tournament's i only actually won 2 maybe 3 games with it. allot of times i hoped it was a gemstone or city or something that could of have given me colored mana.  so like with my new list, took out barbarian and put the 2 mox opal.

The whole metalworker thing is a coin flip... if they start first and lay metal with 5 bombs it's usually gg, unless you can draw balance or tangle then something else to follow..
My side when playing mud is this...  (if i go first)

-4 tangle (since you go first, you have to be the active player...having wire in the opening hand is really not that good)
-sundering (no need)
-crop         (no need..maybe to get bazaar with welder)
-trini       
-2 sphere
 
+2 chalice   (chalice in the opening hand is really really good...  best play is at 0)
+3 replica   
+2 ancient grudge
+2 relic or tormod


On the draw...

- chalice       ..all of them
-sundering
-crop
- sphere     all of them
-trini

graveyard hate... mmm... to tell you the truth i really never had that much trouble. try tricking them in removing all your grave  with a single waste or a bomb with welder active, that should do it most of the times.


plz let me know how the tourn went =)

[punki]

I couldn't get to the tournament I mentioned because of to much snow but I did play at Germagic in Hanau and was 11th out of 80 only losing twice to MUD

report: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=41705.0

I tried 2 ubamask and 2 croprotation and loved them.

3 smokestack was indeed enough and ratchet bomb is a fine replacement for the 4th.

In the future I will be packing ensnaring bridges against MUD because the artifact removal doesn't get there enough, welder gets nullified by relic of progenitus from the sideboard and I always lose to too many big beaters faster than I can get rid of them.

So I'm thinking of upping the number of bazaars and putting bridges in the sideboard

[Bomberman!]

I couldn't get to the tournament I mentioned because of to much snow but I did play at Germagic in Hanau and was 11th out of 80 only losing twice to MUD

report: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=41705.0

I tried 2 ubamask and 2 croprotation and loved them.

3 smokestack was indeed enough and ratchet bomb is a fine replacement for the 4th.

In the future I will be packing ensnaring bridges against MUD because the artifact removal doesn't get there enough, welder gets nullified by relic of progenitus from the sideboard and I always lose to too many big beaters faster than I can get rid of them.

So I'm thinking of upping the number of bazaars and putting bridges in the sideboard

I read the report because i wanted to understand better your problems with MUD. Maybe is because you have 2 cards less than me for MUD?  i have 3 replica's in side,2 Grudge, and 2 shaman main...  and never really had any type of problems...even back then when i only had 2 shamans main and 1RacknR 1Shattering spree side.

can you tell me how you side? meaning the cards you take out and put in on the "DRAW" & on the "PLAY".maybe you are doing something wrong??  I'm no guru, but have been playing Stax for quite a while and might be able to help in some sort of way =)

since crop got un restricted i tried a version of 4 crops and 2 sensei's for draw/top deck engine, where i would use crop nopt only to get a land, but also shuffle the deck so i can manipulate it with sensei...but i just did not like it.

why not just try UBA stax, other wise it can get messy trying to mix too many things.

                  ...last thought...try staxless  ^^

[punki]

I'll never go staxless  :p

No seriously, I play very agressively with smokestack, it's just my playstyle, I can't play without it.

Why not just plain ubastax? I thought about it, but I wanted a versatile deck for an unknown metagame so I ended up with this list. The croprotations could have been bazaars, but with the sideboard tabernacle and bojuka bog I wanted to test, I chose croprotation. It really made the ichorid matchup a walk in the park, crop rotation is also nice against decks with wasteland and in the shop mirror.

My SB against MUD: I side the same on the play and on the draw, taking out dead cards: 3 sphere, trini, titan and i bring in 2 duplicant, 1 grudge and 2 replica. I can win against MUD, but
it's difficult. If they leave in the spheres it's more difficult. It really is a tempo game and sometimes they have a fast start and I can't catch up. Always a turn too late mostly because of sphere and the fact I run collored spells. I will not call it manascrew, but if you have 2 non shop mana and an ancient grudge and there's a sphere, you have to wait a turn, then a golem follows and you just can't get back in the game.
Also relic usually stalls long enough to make sure welder does nothing and ancient grudge is a one-shot.

So the real problem I have after sideboard is if they:
a) They get to start start with sphere of a relevant chalice that denies me a first turn play and they follow it up with a fast clock or some wastelands. On the other side if they start shop sphere and I can waste and they stall a bit on mana I can take over
b) They start with metalworker, I have no fast answer and they bury me in dragons and golems
c) sculpting steel on a crucible and/or a relic force me to trade one for one with them, but they usually have more mana so they thorw out big threads faster than I can topdeck or tutor for answers

Off course if I get in the comfortable position of having active welder and a replica I can usually take care of anything as long as I can keep making permanents. Duplicant was also good for me because it is also reusable with welder and eventually I can get rid of relics if they do not have a fast clock. But I'm looking for a permanent answer for their big hitters and I think ensnaring bridge wil be it.
- it's immune to GY hate
- If they sculpting steel it, I don't care
- They have no removal for it

The only problem is that I would need an alt win condition in barbarian ring or I would need to clear the board with smokestacks and others, destroy the bridge myself and start attacking. Not always something you want to or can do in 50 minutes.


I think the power of 5C stax in today's metagame is that it gets to run non artifacts, but it's also it's greratest weakness against MUD, So I think the main SB plan against MUD has to be an artifact. The replica stays in my SB, but against MUD he doesn't do enough.

[Bomberman!]

everyone has their own style of play so i'll just stick to staxless

anyway, from what you wrote and checking your list i see that maybe my list is a bit stronger against MUD (I play 2 gorilla main,chalice if on the play, no smoke to clonge up stuff....plus my side is also pacts more answears like an extra grudge and extra replica.)..my staxless and original Stax /with smoke) had more cards for that particulare match than what i see from your list. I surely did not win all my games against MUD, but on a percentage, i won like 70-60%.

i side almost the same as you do depending on who starts.
 
on draw or if i play first i always add some grave hate to take care of that sometimes horrible first turn crucible, or if they copy mine.