[Deck] Liquid Termites

[beder]

Hi all, sorry for my English, message from France.

Remark for moderators : I created a new post, different from the existing one - talking generally about the card - cause I feel like this build is already pretty well finalized.

Remark for reader : sorry for the long message, I tried to develop the "deck building process" I used in order to create this last little toy, which is badly efficent and confort me in my original feeling : I definitely feel like this new card could define a totally new archetype in Vintage...

/////////////////// "Liquid Termites V1.0" ///////////////////

Preamble : Termites are little, eat only one kind of material - wood -  but surely will destroy the fundation of your house. A strange little bug...

I started working on a Liquidmetal Coating deck as soon as it has been announced. IMO, a deck based on Liquidmetal has to focus on control through "permanent destruction", brutal destruction.

"Permanent destruction" hasn't been a viable strategy in vintage since a long time. My last memory of that kind of approach is a "land destruction deck" with neither void, sinkole and 4 strip mine that I used to play back in the middle of the 90s A very long time ago.

This is even different from "lock stax" build which strategy is :
- first about preventing you from playing spells through spheres,
- second about destroying your permanent,
- third about locking you out of the game

For that build, I chose the pure "permanent destruction" control strategy, volountarilly giving up on any forms of "spell control" that could be achieved through discard or counterspell.

I started my build not very originally :
- 4x Liquidmetal
- 4x Gorilla
- 4x Ancient grudge
This is clearly not negociable.

Then and according to me, as any control deck in today's meta, my build would ideally need to have access to a draw engine but also a combo finish. Controlling 100% is so difficult to achieve than the control deck must be able to jump to the aggressor role.

Good news, there are some nice and efficent options that we can use :
- 4 x Bazaar of bagdad
- 3x Squee
- 4x Goblin Welder
- 1x Sundering titan
- 1x Sphynx of the steel wind

What a surprise! All those cards are extremely sinergistic with the core components of the "permanent destruction package"!
- Welder/Shaman/Liquidmetal
- Welder/Bazaar/Liquidmetal
- Bazaar/Ancient Grudge

For sure, an engine and a finisher are not sufficent, we need some fast disruption in order to be able to set up our control strategy. hum... what about a very typical disruption package, very well known for its efficent capibility to slow down vintage decks :
- 4x Chalice of the void
- 4x Waste
- 1x Strip

Again, this is 100% in line with the overall strategy : permanent destruction (or prevention when it comes to chalice).

With 4x Bazaar and 5x Strips effect, given that Red/Green are mandatory colors, I feel like this would be difficult to add a third color without destabilzing the mana base. Ok, let's go for Red/Green :
- 4x Wooded Foothills
- 2x Bloodstained Mire
- 3x Taiga
- 2x Mountain
- 1x Barbarian Ring

I add to the "land mana base" some "mana artifact" also usefull as welder's target :
- 1x Black Lotus
- 1x Mox Ruby
- 1x Mox Emerald
- 1x Mana Crypt
- 1x Sol Ring (sol ring and crypt allow you very often to play Liquidmetal and use shaman ability the same turn it arrives in play. Those are necessary)

Finally, I decided to go for another win condition, not relying on graveyard : the very famous Key/Vault combo.
One could say : "the key vault combo works in decks that have an efficent tutoring capability". And one would be right, especially because key/vault deck have only 1 Key and 1 Vault....
What about having multiple "key" (multiple vault being not really authorised...)? Hum, if only it could be used for something else than the combo. Wait a minute... it can also be used to untap "Liquidmetal", in order to use its capability twice in a turn. OK, problem solved for voltaic key.
But what about TimeVault... If only there were a tutor in red... Perhaps I could try "gamble", this old friend that I tried so many times while building red based deck.

Ok, here is the package :
- 3x Gamble (one would note that gamble drawback is mitigated thanks to welder. It could even be an advantage when it comes to putting a robot in yard)
- 3x Voltaic Key
- 1x Time Vault

And finally, for the 2 last slots, I guess some synergistic cards wouldn't hurt :
- 1x Lavadart
- 1x Life from the loan (both of them being potential Gamble targets, as for ancient grudge and big robots).

In the end, here is the build :

----------------------/ "Liquid Termites R/g V1.0" ----------------------
// Lands
    4 Wooded Foothills
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Taiga
    2 Mountain
    1 Barbarian Ring
    4 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine

    4 Bazaar of Baghdad

// Creatures
    3 Squee, Goblin Nabob  
    4 Gorilla Shaman
    4 Goblin Welder
    
    1 Sundering Titan
    1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring

    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Liquimetal Coating
    4 Ancient Grudge

    3 Voltaic Key
    1 Time Vault

    3 Gamble
    1 Lava Dart
    1 Life from the Loam

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Edit : I add in this first post the other version I test, which is perhaps better - at least more solid, resistant and consistant - than the R/g one (see following posts for more explanations)

---------------------- Liquid Termites R/g/b V1.0 ----------------------

/// Lands
    3 Bazaar of Baghdad
   
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Wooded Foothills
    3 Badlands
    2 Taiga
    1 Mountain
    1 Swamp
    4 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine

// Creatures
    3 Goblin Welder
    4 Gorilla Shaman
    4 Dark Confidant
   
    1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring
   
    1 Voltaic Key
    1 Time Vault
   
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Liquimetal Coating
    4 Ancient Grudge
   
    4 Thoughtseize
   
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Imperial Seal

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Testings are so nice!!! The deck eats opponents boards continuously, changing gears very fastly to welder=>robot or key/vault. This new little card is truly impressive!!!

Feel free to react

Cheers

Nicolas

[Daenyth]

Very interesting list! Do you have any summaries of key points for different game matchups?

[beder]

Very interesting list! Do you have any summaries of key points for different game matchups?

Well, at least I can provide you with an overview of the matchups (side being still under construction, this is an overview without siding).

Shop : very positive, as you can imagine. 4 grudges, 4 welder and 4 gorilla is a pretty good package

Tezz : positive (at least the games I played). Welder and the uncounterable draw of bazaar are key for me. Jace is key for them. The "permanent disruption" package is very efficent in this matchup.

Fish : even to positive. strip effects are very efficent against them. Sundering and sphynx are key, but liquidmetal is also very good (even to kill 2CC creature), as lava dart or barbarian ring.

Oath : difficult to even, cause your little creature are exactly what they like. Even if with this build, it is very possible to prevent them from reaching the 2 mana required for oath.

Storm : difficult, even if you can race them thanks to welder=>sundering, chalice and/or key vault.

[BruiZar]

Looks like a solid list beder. Its almost a control version of Dragon Stompy. You want Tormods Crypts, Moon effects and Red Elemental Blasts in the sideboard. If your Liquimetal Coatings don´t resolve and Welder doesn´t get active your deck doesn´t do a whole lot, but at least you have the squee engine and practical assurance that fast mana won´t stick very long.


Edit

I think you want Rebs in the main. Against shops and dredge they may be dead, but against everything else they´re not. It kills Jace, beats FoW and Trygon Predator and gives you some tools against Gush which will undoubtedly pick up some momentum. I also think you should be running moon effects main as it trumps bazaar, workshop and gush islands.

Edit 2

Perhaps you didn´t realize this yet, but you can get a double Sundering Titan effect with 1 Goblin Welder out is you have Liquimetal Coating and Voltaic Key out. Simply turn Welder into an artifact and untap it with Voltaic Key.

[meadbert]

I have not tested this list at all, but I have tried putting similar engines in Turboland and a common problem I run into is that Squee is nearly dead when you have no Bazaar.
Certainly you can pay 3 for the 1/1, but that is not close to type 1 playable.  In this list I do not see other discard or even Brainstorm effects.
I also do not see tutors for Bazaar (other than Gamble.)  Gamble is great if you tutor for Bazaar and discard Squee, but if you discard Bazaar that seems scary.

I definitely approve of the 4th Grudge over a 4th Squee for this reason.

Would Survival of the Fittest make sense?  It can filter out Squee for a Welder or Shaman.  My guess is it is too slow.

Also, have you tested Burning Inquiry?  It seems decent with Squee and Life from the Loam.  Also, in my limited testing with Burning Inquiry I was surprised at how often it would just totally hose opponents when played turn 1 on the play.  Maybe they kept a hand with 1 Land and they discard it or they discard their only turn 2 play so they sit for a while.  Dredge might discard their Bazaar or Stax may discard their Shop.
I am not sure what to cut, but Burning Inquiry does seem like it would be decent for some of the same reasons that Gamble is decent in this list.

Another comment is regarding Chalice of the Void.  In my experience Chalice is fairly weak when you do not want to play it for 1 or 2.  It looks like your list likes neither of those numbers so you are stuck playing it for 0 on the draw a lot.  I wonder if Resistor, Thorn or even Root Maze would be better.
Those are solid with Grudges and Shamans since you opponent does not get acceleration with their Moxen.  They either cost mana to come into play or come into play tapped.  Then you can zap them with Ancient Grudge or Gorilla Shaman.  Of these, my guess is Root Maze is the best, but you cannot play Welder games with it.

[beder]

Looks like a solid list beder. Its almost a control version of Dragon Stompy. You want Tormods Crypts, Moon effects and Red Elemental Blasts in the sideboard. If your Liquimetal Coatings don´t resolve and Welder doesn´t get active your deck doesn´t do a whole lot, but at least you have the squee engine and practical assurance that fast mana won´t stick very long.


Edit

I think you want Rebs in the main. Against shops and dredge they may be dead, but against everything else they´re not. It kills Jace, beats FoW and Trygon Predator and gives you some tools against Gush which will undoubtedly pick up some momentum. I also think you should be running moon effects main as it trumps bazaar, workshop and gush islands.

Edit 2

Perhaps you didn´t realize this yet, but you can get a double Sundering Titan effect with 1 Goblin Welder out is you have Liquimetal Coating and Voltaic Key out. Simply turn Welder into an artifact and untap it with Voltaic Key.

Thanks for your answers.

Sure, if welder AND liquidmetal doesn't stick, it is difficult. Neverthless, I have to say that I won a significant number of games thanks to key/vault. The counterspells and disruptions goes to welder and liquidmetal, allowing me to combo with key/vault.

Then, when it comes to the moon effect, I didn't use them main for several reason :
- 3 mana is an important amount of mana for this deck,
- the strip effects belongs so much to this deck that it is a shame to negate them,
- the bazaar engine is what keeps me in the game when my first threat - welder or liquidmetal - has been destroyed/countered.
Those are the main reasons why I don't use moon effect, I am even reluctant to put them in side.

Regarding the REB, I agree, it would be very nice. But to be honnest, they would replace something that has more synergie with the rest of the deck. And it would oblige me to keep   open, when I am generally all tapped at the end of the turn. This would be truly penalizing in terms of tempo.

Yeah, I got the trick with Liquidmetal/Voltaic and Welder. Not so frequent but is may be funny

[beder]

I have not tested this list at all, but I have tried putting similar engines in Turboland and a common problem I run into is that Squee is nearly dead when you have no Bazaar.
Certainly you can pay 3 for the 1/1, but that is not close to type 1 playable.  In this list I do not see other discard or even Brainstorm effects.
I also do not see tutors for Bazaar (other than Gamble.)  Gamble is great if you tutor for Bazaar and discard Squee, but if you discard Bazaar that seems scary.

I definitely approve of the 4th Grudge over a 4th Squee for this reason.

Would Survival of the Fittest make sense?  It can filter out Squee for a Welder or Shaman.  My guess is it is too slow.

Also, have you tested Burning Inquiry?  It seems decent with Squee and Life from the Loam.  Also, in my limited testing with Burning Inquiry I was surprised at how often it would just totally hose opponents when played turn 1 on the play.  Maybe they kept a hand with 1 Land and they discard it or they discard their only turn 2 play so they sit for a while.  Dredge might discard their Bazaar or Stax may discard their Shop.
I am not sure what to cut, but Burning Inquiry does seem like it would be decent for some of the same reasons that Gamble is decent in this list.

Another comment is regarding Chalice of the Void.  In my experience Chalice is fairly weak when you do not want to play it for 1 or 2.  It looks like your list likes neither of those numbers so you are stuck playing it for 0 on the draw a lot.  I wonder if Resistor, Thorn or even Root Maze would be better.
Those are solid with Grudges and Shamans since you opponent does not get acceleration with their Moxen.  They either cost mana to come into play or come into play tapped.  Then you can zap them with Ancient Grudge or Gorilla Shaman.  Of these, my guess is Root Maze is the best, but you cannot play Welder games with it.

Didn't test Burning Inquiry. I feel like I need more a tutor capability than a draw one (especially with bazaar being already in the deck). But it definitely looks like a funny card

When it comes to survival, I have the same feeling as you. A very nice card, but a little bit too expensive for this deck. I tested it a while ago, in a different deck using 4 simian spirit guide and 4 elvish spirit guide. Was Ok with so many accelerant. But here, I think it will be too slow too often.

Finally, regarding chalice, this is the fastest disruption that I know when it comes to prevent moxen from being used (especially when they are backuped by shaman if you're on the draw). Moreover, it is a fast artifact to be used by welder. Finally thanks to bazaar, I discard the extra copies I don't need anymore. Thorn would be nice but it is really expensive for this deck (which operates with 1=>3 mana max on board).

[beder]

For those of you who don't like the bazaar squee engine or the gambles, here is a R/g/b version of Liquid Termites.

Here are the changes :

Removed :
- 3 squee
- 1 life from the loan
- 1 Lava dart
- 1 Bazaar
- 1 Welder
- 3 Gamble
- 2 Voltaic
- 1 Sundering titan

Added
+ 4 dark confidant
+ 4 thoughseize
+ 1 Imperial Seal
+ 1 Vampiric Tutor
+ 1 Demonic tutor
+ 1 Swamp (increasing the number of land is a necessary evil when adding a 3rd color and increasing the number of 2 CC cards)[/b]
+ 1 Mox jet


As a result, here is the R/g/b version of Liquid Termite :

////////////////////////////////// Liquid Termites R/g/b //////////////////////////////////

/// Lands
    3 Bazaar of Baghdad
    
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Wooded Foothills
    3 Badlands
    2 Taiga
    1 Mountain
    1 Swamp
    4 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine

// Creatures
    3 Goblin Welder
    4 Gorilla Shaman
    4 Dark Confidant
    
    1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring
  
    1 Voltaic Key
    1 Time Vault
    
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Liquimetal Coating
    4 Ancient Grudge
    
    4 Thoughtseize
    
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Imperial Seal

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Impact :

+ more consistant and solid
+ less random effect
+ less dependant on graveyard
+ more interaction in first turns
+ better drawing engine

- less "oops I win factor"
- the mana base is weakened => more mana in volume but more risk of not having the right color
- the 2CC of dark conf are in competition with the 2CC of liquidmetal
- no more silver bullet
- life point may be an issue

For sure, this R/g/b version has a less positive matchup against shop than the other one. But the other matchups are improved (especially combo and oath).

I think I prefer that version which is more solid and less welder dependant.

[beder]

And to complete the precedent thread, here is the side I try for the time being :

4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ravenous Trap
4 Nature's Claim
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Lava dart

Against Fish :
- 4 chalice of the void
- 1 Gorilla shaman
+ 3 Grim lavamancer
+ 1 Lightening bolt
+ 1 Lava dart

Against Storm :
- 1 Ancient Grudge
- 1 Welder
+ 2 Tormods

Against Oath :
- 1 Ancient Grudge
- 1 Gorilla shaman
- 1 Welder
- 1 Bazaar
+ 4 natural's claim

Against shop :
- 4 thoughseize
- 1 Liquidmetal coating
+ 4 natural's claim
+ 1 lightening

Against Tezz :
possible to enter the lightening and the lava dart depending on the build (with or without darkcond/trygon)

Against dredge :
- 4 Chalice
- 2 Ancient Grudge
- 1 Liquid metal
- 1 Gorilla Shaman
+ 4 Tormod's
+ 2 Ravenous Trap
+ 1 Ligtening
+ 1 Lava dart

[meadbert]

So this time I actually tested.
I liked most of the changes you made, but here a few things I noticed.

City of Brass should probably be considered in the main now that you have 3 colors.  I know the damage is not nice with Dark Confidant, but getting access to all 3 colors is pretty key at times.  City is immune to Titan if you use him or potentially allows for hardcast Sphinx although that never showed up.

Root Maze seemed better than Chalice for me in testing.  Most of your threats are unaffected.  Even liquidmetal plating is frequently not ready to be used the turn you played it.
Dark Confidant, Shamans and Welder do not care.  It messes up and slows down enemy Fetches.
Shaman + Root Maze = no artifact mana for your opponent.
It would be one more reason to run Cities.  It dodges some artifact removal (but much artifact removal doubles as Root Maze removal.)

Root Maze also allows you to function with what is basically a lock which saves you from random Land, Ritual, Yawg Will nonsense.

[beder]

So this time I actually tested.
I liked most of the changes you made, but here a few things I noticed.

City of Brass should probably be considered in the main now that you have 3 colors.  I know the damage is not nice with Dark Confidant, but getting access to all 3 colors is pretty key at times.  City is immune to Titan if you use him or potentially allows for hardcast Sphinx although that never showed up.

Root Maze seemed better than Chalice for me in testing.  Most of your threats are unaffected.  Even liquidmetal plating is frequently not ready to be used the turn you played it.
Dark Confidant, Shamans and Welder do not care.  It messes up and slows down enemy Fetches.
Shaman + Root Maze = no artifact mana for your opponent.
It would be one more reason to run Cities.  It dodges some artifact removal (but much artifact removal doubles as Root Maze removal.)

Root Maze also allows you to function with what is basically a lock which saves you from random Land, Ritual, Yawg Will nonsense.

Your proposal regarding city of brass is very interesting. I should try to add one in place of one badland.

Then, when it comes to the root maze/chalice topic, here are my thoughts:
- i like chalice being a fast welder target,
- i don t like it being dead in multiples (even if bazaars helps filtering),
- i am a little bit afraid that root maze will slow me down as much as opponent,
- i like the fact that root maze allows hard lock and is immune to artifact bounces. I noticed that I needed something to definitely seal the game when I am in the "eating permanent mode".

I will need to test it, but I also need to test another idea that has been suggested and that could be very good : thorn of amethist. Right now, i want to try adding one single thorn in place of the fourth chalice.
It looks like a perfect addition to this deck - the R/B/g version - as a one of :
- is an artifact (can be welded in after tutor+bazaar),
- allows hard lock (almost as well as root maze),
- should slow down opponents more than me.

So instead of 4 Chalices, I am going to try :
- 3 chalices
- 1 thorn

Perhaps this could adress your concerns regarding chalicesx4.

[meadbert]

You have some good points.  Root Maze is bad in multiples which is an excellent reason to not run 4, but is irrelevant when considering whether to run 1.

In my testing Shops are not a problem for this deck.  Drain decks and TPS are slightly problematic with TPS being much worse than Drain decks.  Gush decks are very problematic.

Gush decks may run few artifacts to begin with and then simply Gush lands back to their hand whenever you attempt to destroy them. 
This enables a relatively powerful deck to largely dodge your primary engine.

When playing against a Gush deck Chalice@0 is very weak since such decks rarely rely on their Moxen and may not even run a full set.
Chalice@1 is good against Gush decks, but Liquid Termites is not thrilled with Chalice@1 out.
Root Maze crushes Gush based decks.

Also, this scenario can show up at times:
Your opponent has no board and you have Chalice out.
Your opponent drops a fetch.  You go to Ancient Grudge it EOT so they Fetch.
On your turn you go to remove it again, but they Pierce.
On their turn they drop a second land and do something annoying.

On the play Chalice is more one sided since you can play your Moxen and they cannot play their.
on the draw you must choose between Root Maze and Duress while Chalice can be played in conjunction with Duress.
Welder can play games with Chalice.  So Chalice definitely has some advantages.

It is not clear to me how much Root Maze helps against Gush decks since if they board into Green hate like Claims then they can simply Remove Root Maze.
Still it is better to force them to remove Root Maze rather than let them ignore Chalice and Claim Vault/Key or LiquidMetal Coating instead.

Maybe run only 1 or 2 Root Mazes to help the redundancy problems and possibly to tutor up when you have a lock.

Disclaimer:  I have been testing against 2 Gush based decks.  One was GAT and the other was a Turboland variant that does not run Moxen.  Obviously Root Maze is amazing against Turboland and Chalice@0 is pointless.  You will never face this deck in real life.  My comments in this thread are meant to be based more on my testing of GAT which may or may not show up in real life, but I may be allowing my perceptions to be unduly influenced by Turboland.

Against GAT, Thorn was really not that amazing.  Basically it slows them down about as much as it slows you, but their strategy of dropping a quick beater and beating is still in tact.  It is still better than Chalice, but not nearly as good as Root Maze.

Now if Gush either makes no impact or only a small impact then this does not really matter.

Against Trygon Tez you frequently end up with a Liquidmetal Coating vs Trygon Predator race.
Thorn is annoying in that it slows down your own Coating without impacting Predator.
On the other hand Root Maze makes Coating come into play tapped thus delaying it a turn.  This only matter when topdecked since you are presumably tapped out otherwise.
Root Maze does at least slow down Predator too.

Against Rituals Thorn is better than Root Maze.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The gaping whole in this deck's strategy is its inability to stop an opponent who can "just win" if given the time to hand-sculpt despite an empty board.  Good examples include ANT and Doomsday.  Even just playing out Vault-Key via some Moxen and a Tolarian.

To negate that, you need to bring Root Maze main so that mana source removal becomes akin to a hard lock and fetches can't be used to protect a mana build-up.

[meadbert]

The gaping whole in this deck's strategy is its inability to stop an opponent who can "just win" if given the time to hand-sculpt despite an empty board.  Good examples include ANT and Doomsday.  Even just playing out Vault-Key via some Moxen and a Tolarian.

To negate that, you need to bring Root Maze main so that mana source removal becomes akin to a hard lock and fetches can't be used to protect a mana build-up.

I think A. Duck just made my point in about 1/10th the space.

[policehq]

The gaping whole in this deck's strategy is its inability to stop an opponent who can "just win" if given the time to hand-sculpt despite an empty board.  Good examples include ANT and Doomsday.  Even just playing out Vault-Key via some Moxen and a Tolarian.

To negate that, you need to bring Root Maze main so that mana source removal becomes akin to a hard lock and fetches can't be used to protect a mana build-up.

I think A. Duck just made my point in about 1/10th the space.

Chalice still defends you against the situations he named, though... so does the aforementioned Thorn of Amethyst.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The gaping whole in this deck's strategy is its inability to stop an opponent who can "just win" if given the time to hand-sculpt despite an empty board.  Good examples include ANT and Doomsday.  Even just playing out Vault-Key via some Moxen and a Tolarian.

To negate that, you need to bring Root Maze main so that mana source removal becomes akin to a hard lock and fetches can't be used to protect a mana build-up.

I think A. Duck just made my point in about 1/10th the space.

Chalice still defends you against the situations he named, though... so does the aforementioned Thorn of Amethyst.

Thorn doesn't protect against Hierarchs or fetch build-up.  At least Sphere of Resistance protects against Fishy one-drops and Tarmogoyf aggro off a fetch.  Ie. Drop fetch, pass, crack fetch, play land, drop Goyf.

[beder]

The gaping whole in this deck's strategy is its inability to stop an opponent who can "just win" if given the time to hand-sculpt despite an empty board.  Good examples include ANT and Doomsday.  Even just playing out Vault-Key via some Moxen and a Tolarian.

To negate that, you need to bring Root Maze main so that mana source removal becomes akin to a hard lock and fetches can't be used to protect a mana build-up.

Your remark is good except that the described situation and weakness is based on the assumption that this deck needs a hard lock to win the game. This is not really the strategy of this deck, which do not rely on hard lock.
If opponent's board is empty (or even partially destroyed), I will just go for the win through key/vault. Between an opponent facing chalice, some thoughseizes and having an empty - or almost empty board -, and this deck using bazaar, dark conf, 3 tutors and welder, I am pretty confidant that I can win the race for broken. That's exactly what happened during my testings against ANT which were pretty good (even before adding a single thorn).

IMO, hard locking is a bonus, another option that can sometimes be easier to set up, but is perhaps also a win-more bonus.
I want to try thorn cause it almost provides me with a hard lock option without centering the decks strategy on it.
Like other decks using disruption and draw engine, to be able to play their win condition (tezz, oath, ...) this deck uses its permanent disruption (and discard for the black version), in order to be able to set up its combo (weld a robot or key/vault). This deck is not intended to definitely lock the game as Control stax may.

But that doesn't mean that root maze is not an option to be considered. Right now, and except against gat, I am not sure that is is the best option. I need more testings to determine if this really disrupts more opponent's game than mine. For sure, it is a better disruption tool, but more symetric and with drawbacks (like costing   instead of 0, requiring a non basic land turn 1 and not being an artifact).

remark for fetchlands : with liquid on board, if opponent plays a fetch to start rebuilding its mana base, you can attack the fetch at end of turn, forcing him to fetch, and then destroy the lan at your turn.

[BruiZar]

Its not symmetric. Shaman doesnt care aboutbeing tapped, you run voltaic keys; and having liquimetal coating citp doesn't impact you as much as your opponent. If you want to use thorns, go ahead. I prefer rootmaze. With thorns you are simply making it imposssible to play against shop decks on the play. And gush kills you regardless of your thorn. The idea of having grudge and coating is viable, but I don't think the route you are taking is more than a fringe deck

[beder]

Its not symmetric. Shaman doesnt care aboutbeing tapped, you run voltaic keys; and having liquimetal coating citp doesn't impact you as much as your opponent. If you want to use thorns, go ahead. I prefer rootmaze. With thorns you are simply making it imposssible to play against shop decks on the play. And gush kills you regardless of your thorn. The idea of having grudge and coating is viable, but I don't think the route you are taking is more than a fringe deck

I think we are talking about different things :
- I am talking about replacing one chalice with one thorn - and so play only one thorn - in the R/B/g build (with dark conf, thoughseize, black tutors and only 1 voltaic). in that build, I feel like it may ne the right option
- you are proposing root maze in the R/g build, which can effectively be an interesting option given that this build uses multile voltaic. and could easily have a mana base not too much affected by root maze

the 2 points of view are not exclusive.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I'd add 4 thorns myself and ditch the chalices.  Here's why:

-The aforementioned ANT/Doomsday have just as much trouble with a thorn as chalice.
-while it doesn't stop heirarch/fetches, it stops counters and spells when you are wasting/liquid-shamaning their lands.
-summoning sick heirarchs can be coated/killed easily and a fetch is worse vs thorn than chalice...it affects "tap for 1" lands identically to root maze.
-it is identical to root maze vs moxen as the mana cost negates the acceleration (except lotus)
-it is better vs ritual/will shenanigans
-you seem to want to play chalice @0 almost always, and thorn negates the acceleration (which grudge/shaman can quickly remove altogether)
-it is an artifact to weld
-it is actually GOOD in multipes
-it is semi-useful vs dredge where chalice is dead

The deck seems interesting, but the question becomes "is a deck inherently strong vs shops that can vindicate at will better than a deck that can do the same but stop spells as well and be inherently good vs blue.deck instead of shops (i.e. painter)?" Grudge/shaman are more reuseable than REBS, but they also are limited to permanents.  Painter also has the advantage of comboing with 1 card (grindstone) and built in protection with counter/trygon/hurkyll''s hate in Reb/pyro.  What makes this strategy any better?

[madmanmike25]

Here's a list my buddy has that is straightforward r/g and has an excellent shop matchup to say the least:

Critters:  24
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Magus of the Moon
4 ESG
4 SSG
2 Viashino Heretic
2 Caustic Wasps(it's no Trygon but still good)

Spells: 14
4 Artifact Mutation
4 Smash to Smithereens(I would play Grudge)
4 Liquimetal Coating
2 Hull Breach (I think these should be Claims)

Lands+Mana: 22
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
4 Wasteland
2 Mountain
2 Forest
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Strip Mine
2 On-color Mox
1 Black Lotus

The deck is pretty effective.  Sb is full of red blasts for the pesky blue mages.  I think Welder is a tad slow but I know how good the Mox Monkey-swap lock is.  Artifact Mutation is beastly, and is pretty much a bigger TinStreet with flash most of the time.  Casting ArtMut in response to Tangles is so good.

The Tombs and 8 Spirit Guides help get Magus online faster, and thats a pretty good lock too.  Spirit Guides really throw off the shop player when he thinks you can't cast a spell because of Sphere effects.

Hope this list helps, I really think 2 colors are more effective than 3 and R/G work so well together.

[Daenyth]

Well that certainly looks like it beats shop, but what do you do to storm combo if they fetch out a basic and just race your liquimetal?

[madmanmike25]

This type of deck probably isn't the best to beat storm combo, so my answer is that I would play something else if I expected a heavy storm combo meta.

Other than that, Magus stops fetches.  Gorilla Shaman turns moxen into petals.  Also if you do get Liquimetal Coating out, you can easily destroy the basics you described in your example with the artifact hate.

If you wanted to gear this to beat storm combo you could add in Pyrostatic Pillar.

I'm pretty sure your question was rhetorical, but it's nice to have options isn't it?

[xouman]

This deck relies too much on liquimetal coating, does not? So in order to maximize its power I would play ancient stirrings, the best "tutor" I can find now. It does not have a great chance to find coating (30% on average), but it would help.

pyrostatic pillar, as it has been said, and maybe ankh of mishra/blood moon (or both) could help against non combo. Grim lavamancer beats fish and golems (at the cost of its life :p).

My list is less focused on artifacts hate (in my meta mud is not beyond 20%), so I'm trying black instead of green. The main idea is to take profit with confidants, and fit senseis (that work perfectly with coating and confidants), and so i tried voltaic key... and then vault. So I have about 50 cards before adding lands, and I don't know what to throw out XD

[beder]

Hi all,

After some more testings and tuning, here is the latest build of Liquid Termites R/B/g.
Choices are explained after the build.

// Lands
    3 Bazaar of Baghdad

    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Wooded Foothills
    3 Badlands
    1 Taiga
    1 Bayou
    1 Swamp
    1 Mountain
    3 Wasteland     -1
    1 Strip Mine

// Creatures
    3 Goblin Welder
    3 Gorilla Shaman     -1
    4 Dark Confidant
    1 Sundering Titan   instead of Sphynx

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Sol Ring

    1 Voltaic Key
    1 Time Vault

    3 Chalice of the Void  -1
    1 Thorn of Amethyst New

    4 Liquimetal Coating
    3 Ancient Grudge      -1
    1 Nature's Claim         New

    2 Thoughtseize         -2
    2 Duress                   +2

    1 Lava Dart               New
    1 Life from the Loam  New

    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Imperial Seal
    1 Demonic Tutor

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

1) I feel confidant with only 4 strip effect.

2) Ancient grudge goes to 3 and 1 Nature's Claim is added :
- first it's casting cost, which is different from ancient grudge (against chalice)
- second, it's an out to oath main, which can be pretty interesting with the tutors
- third, it can be played faster than ancient grudge, which is sometimes the difference between not doing anything and being able to destroy a land the turn liquid metal arrived in play.

4) Gorilla Shaman goes to 3 : with chalice, grudges and natural's claim, it was a little bit too much. And I don't want to draw 2 of them.

4) Chalice goes to 3 and 1 thorn is added : in early game, Thorn may have the same impact has chalice (thanks to shaman and grudges). Then, it allows an hard lock. Finally, it is better than chalice against chains of spell. I still keep 3 chalice cause it is a very fast mana denial and a welder target.

5) Lava dart is added, in order to deal with small creature which are very present in today's meta (noble hierarch, dark conf, welder or even a 2CC creature)

6) Life from the loan is added, cause it has too many synergies with the whole deck, allowing a strip lock or being used with bazaar.
  
7) Sundering Titan replaces Sphynx : well, this has benefits and disadvantages. It helps a lot more than sphynx against control or combo. It is worse against Aggro or Shops. But given that the Shop matchup is already pretty good and that Sphynx is not a very reliable option against aggro, I feel like this is a better option. Of course, all this is largely meta dependant.

In the end, I feel like those changes improve my difficult matchups without weakening the other ones.

It also has an impact on the side which is changed :

SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Ravenous Trap
SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast

(still under reflexion, I would like to add one lightening)

[Troy_Costisick]

// Lands
    3 Bazaar of Baghdad

    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Wooded Foothills
    3 Badlands
    1 Taiga
    1 Bayou
    1 Swamp
    1 Mountain
    3 Wasteland     -1
    1 Strip Mine

// Creatures
    3 Goblin Welder
    3 Gorilla Shaman     -1
    4 Dark Confidant
    1 Sundering Titan   instead of Sphynx

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Sol Ring

    1 Voltaic Key
    1 Time Vault

    3 Chalice of the Void  -1
    1 Thorn of Amethyst New

    4 Liquimetal Coating
    3 Ancient Grudge      -1
    1 Nature's Claim         New

    2 Thoughtseize         -2
    2 Duress                   +2

    1 Lava Dart               New
    1 Life from the Loam  New

    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Imperial Seal
    1 Demonic Tutor

I haven't tested your deck, so what I'm saying is just theoretical.  But from a desing standpoint, I have a problem with the way this deck is set up.  There are an awful lot of 3's and 2's in this deck.  There's an old addage that says the correct number of a card to play is always 1 or 4.  That may be changing, but with SO many 3's in this deck, it would seem like the consistancy of this deck would be very suspect.  I can immagine the deck performing wildly differently from game to game especially with the Bazzars and now Dredge elements you've added.  This design makes the think that you're making the deck overly complicated to pilot and thus opening up yourself to more play errors.

[beder]

// Lands
    3 Bazaar of Baghdad

    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Wooded Foothills
    3 Badlands
    1 Taiga
    1 Bayou
    1 Swamp
    1 Mountain
    3 Wasteland     -1
    1 Strip Mine

// Creatures
    3 Goblin Welder
    3 Gorilla Shaman     -1
    4 Dark Confidant
    1 Sundering Titan   instead of Sphynx

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Sol Ring

    1 Voltaic Key
    1 Time Vault

    3 Chalice of the Void  -1
    1 Thorn of Amethyst New

    4 Liquimetal Coating
    3 Ancient Grudge      -1
    1 Nature's Claim         New

    2 Thoughtseize         -2
    2 Duress                   +2

    1 Lava Dart               New
    1 Life from the Loam  New

    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Imperial Seal
    1 Demonic Tutor

I haven't tested your deck, so what I'm saying is just theoretical.  But from a desing standpoint, I have a problem with the way this deck is set up.  There are an awful lot of 3's and 2's in this deck.  There's an old addage that says the correct number of a card to play is always 1 or 4.  That may be changing, but with SO many 3's in this deck, it would seem like the consistancy of this deck would be very suspect.  I can immagine the deck performing wildly differently from game to game especially with the Bazzars and now Dredge elements you've added.  This design makes the think that you're making the deck overly complicated to pilot and thus opening up yourself to more play errors.

Well, I understand your point but I feel those 2's or 3's are most of the time fake 2's or 3's.
- 2 Thougseize and 2 Duress are 4 discards (the 2x2 split being for damages purposes). Was even thinking about going to 3&2
- 3 chalice and 1 thorn are "4 of" anti artifact (the 3x1 split being in order not to have 2 chalice and to be able to access an hard lock option)
- 3 Ancient and 1 Natural's are "4 of" artifact destroyer, which I think is sufficent (but could be increase)
- "3's welder" is because i just want one
- "3's shaman" are also because I just want one
then there are the real one-of, "lava dart" and "life from the loan", which are utilities tutorable and discardable to bazaar.

[Troy_Costisick]

- 3 chalice and 1 thorn are "4 of" anti artifact (the 3x1 split being in order not to have 2 chalice and to be able to access an hard lock option)

Well, let's take Chalice for instance.  It's utility is VERY high on turn one and then diminishes greatly after that, especially in a deck full of 1 and 2 drops.  If you get Chalice you want it in your opening hand.  Playing 3 makes that less likely which increases your dead draws later in the game.  Thorn, conversely, gets better if you draw multiples.  Playing only one means it will show up only on very rare occasions and may not even be useful when it does.  Playing 4 means you can slow down instants and sorceries while letting your creatures get in for their true costs.  The split you have right now seems the worst of both worlds from a deckbuilding standpoint.

[beder]

- 3 chalice and 1 thorn are "4 of" anti artifact (the 3x1 split being in order not to have 2 chalice and to be able to access an hard lock option)

Well, let's take Chalice for instance.  It's utility is VERY high on turn one and then diminishes greatly after that, especially in a deck full of 1 and 2 drops.  If you get Chalice you want it in your opening hand.  Playing 3 makes that less likely which increases your dead draws later in the game.  Thorn, conversely, gets better if you draw multiples.  Playing only one means it will show up only on very rare occasions and may not even be useful when it does.  Playing 4 means you can slow down instants and sorceries while letting your creatures get in for their true costs.  The split you have right now seems the worst of both worlds from a deckbuilding standpoint.

Well, that's a point of view.

Another point of view would be the following.
Given my 7 cards in hand
- with 4 chalices, I have 39% of chance to have at least one in hand but 6% or chance to have more than one (which is clearly useless in this deck that only want to set it at 0).
- with 3 chalices, I have only 32% of change to have at least one in hand but also only 3% of chance to have more than one.

Given that Thorn can be also be played sometimes turn one thanks to one of the 3 mox, lotus, mana crypt or sol ring, I feel that I don't lose too much when it comes to slowing down artifact accelerators during early game. This is particularly true for this deck which has also access to other artifact removals during early game (so Thorn may have almost the same effect as chalice regarding 0cc artifact with the benefit of slowing down other spells). 

Finally, I valuate the option to have access to Thorn (in oder to lock or to disrupt storm combos) more than the potential lost regarding turn one.

To sum up, my reasonning is the following  :
- I choose to play only 3 chalices  because chalice's effect is not cumulative and I have other options against artifact,
- I choose to play 1 thorn, cause it can complement Chalice early game but can also provide an interesting option to be tutored in some situations.

But sure I do not claim to be the deck building expert. I would be interested in other feedback from the community regarding that topic/point of view. 

[RecklessEmbermage]

- 3 chalice and 1 thorn are "4 of" anti artifact (the 3x1 split being in order not to have 2 chalice and to be able to access an hard lock option)

Well, let's take Chalice for instance.  It's utility is VERY high on turn one and then diminishes greatly after that, especially in a deck full of 1 and 2 drops.  If you get Chalice you want it in your opening hand.  Playing 3 makes that less likely which increases your dead draws later in the game.  Thorn, conversely, gets better if you draw multiples.  Playing only one means it will show up only on very rare occasions and may not even be useful when it does.  Playing 4 means you can slow down instants and sorceries while letting your creatures get in for their true costs.  The split you have right now seems the worst of both worlds from a deckbuilding standpoint.

Well, that's a point of view.

Another point of view would be the following.
Given my 7 cards in hand
- with 4 chalices, I have 39% of chance to have at least one in hand but 6% or chance to have more than one (which is clearly useless in this deck that only want to set it at 0).
- with 3 chalices, I have only 32% of change to have at least one in hand but also only 3% of chance to have more than one.

Given that Thorn can be also be played sometimes turn one thanks to one of the 3 mox, lotus, mana crypt or sol ring, I feel that I don't lose too much when it comes to slowing down artifact accelerators during early game. This is particularly true for this deck which has also access to other artifact removals during early game (so Thorn may have almost the same effect as chalice regarding 0cc artifact with the benefit of slowing down other spells). 

Finally, I valuate the option to have access to Thorn (in oder to lock or to disrupt storm combos) more than the potential lost regarding turn one.

To sum up, my reasonning is the following  :
- I choose to play only 3 chalices  because chalice's effect is not cumulative and I have other options against artifact,
- I choose to play 1 thorn, cause it can complement Chalice early game but can also provide an interesting option to be tutored in some situations.

But sure I do not claim to be the deck building expert. I would be interested in other feedback from the community regarding that topic/point of view. 

This is quite simple and Beder is right:

If you play a card that is somewhat important to the deck, but where you want to avoid drawing multiples, playing 2 or 3 (depending on how much you rely on drawing it and how much card draw you got) is reasonable.

If you have a fringe card that is useful often enough that you would like access to it in the main by means of tutoring, then 1 is the default number. Unless you want to be able to tutor for it with demonic consultation with only a low risk of blowing yourself away.

If you regard chalice and thorn as redundant and for some reason have landed on playing 4 total, it is fair to value chalice higher yet decide that thorn #1 is more valuable than chalice #4.

I see nothing wrong with Beder's line of thinking in this case. I have no opinion on the inclusion of chalice or thorn in this list though.