Riddler Shop Deck (now with less Glowrider!)

[LotusHead]

// Lands
    4  City of Brass
    4  Gemstone Mine
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Wasteland

// Creatures
    1  Duplicant
    4  Glowrider
    4  Goblin Welder
    4  Lodestone Golem
    4  Riddlesmith
    1  Indomitable Archangel
    1  Sundering Titan

// Spells
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Black Lotus
    2  Null Rod
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Sphere of Resistance
    4  Thorn of Amethyst
    1  Trinisphere
    2  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Time Walk
    1 [V09] Tinker

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Duplicant
SB: 1  Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1  Ancient Grudge
SB: 1  Balance
SB: 1  Darkblast
SB: 2  Helm of Obedience
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 1  Razormane Masticore
SB: 2  Seal of Cleansing

It's been a while since I posted any kind of list, and my next tourney is 10 days away, but I don't have a proper team any more, so I turn to TMD for any advice to make this better.

For a while, I have been trying to get a Non-artifact based sideboard for my 5c shop lists (most of those lists were Stax builds, but this one is not).
I've tried Aven Mindsensor, Braids, Leonin Abunas, and stuff.

With the printing of RiddleSmith, my head asploded with ideas.  One day, I sleeved up those ideas.

// Creatures
    1  Duplicant       - Always great in a Shop/Welder Deck. Kills anything but Inkwell Leviathon
    4  Glowrider        - Combos nicely with Thorn of Amethyst and Lodestone Golem and Sphere of Resistance.
    4  Goblin Welder  - Riddlesmith will get fatties into the grave yard, Welders will get them back.
    4  Lodestone Golem  - Heroin for Shops. Comboes nicely with Thorn of Amethyst and Artifact Creatures
    4  Riddlesmith  -  This guy triggers if you just PLAY an artifact, so it WILL trigger sans Stifle/Trickbind.
    1  Indomitable Archangel  - Not sure about this guy. With null rod in deck, it takes the Trike/Jar/Mindslaver slot.
    1  Sundering Titan - Win Condition. Shop Staple.

    2  Null Rod   - Only affects my Moxen. Much of my deck is creatures and fairly cheap.
    1  Ancestral Recall - I play blue mana
    4  Sphere of Resistance - If 13 sphere effects is good, why not 17?
    4  Thorn of Amethyst - Comboes Nicely with artifact creatures (and regular creatures)
    1  Trinisphere - If 17 Spheres is good, why not 20? Right, Trinisphere is still restricted.  I guess I can't complain anymore.
    2  Crucible of Worlds - Mana denial is good, getting back Gemstone Mines is good. Pitches to Riddlesmith
    1  Time Walk -derp
    1 [V09] Tinker - really for Titan, Dupe or maybe Crucible. Possibly Lodestone Golem. Or Sphere. Maybe Null Rod. Or ....

Other cards I considered:

Demonic Tutor. What to tutor for? It might cost 4 to tutor in the first place. Hard to fit in with 17 sphere effects.
Bazaar of Baghdad. I own one, but I also own 4 Riddlesmiths.  Haven't really tested yet.
Chalice of the Void: I'm trying to not step on my own toes for once, 17 spheres and 2 null rods should do the trick
Gorilla Shaman: Might take place of Sphere #16/#17

Well? What do you think?  Is there anything obvious that I missed? I'm psyched that I finally get to play with Glowriders Maindeck.

[Bibendum]

Angel doesn't play well with welder

[LotusHead]

Maybe I will proxy an In The Eye of Chaos to take that spot, but worst case senario, is Indominable Angel is a flying 4/4 beatstick.

[Bibendum]

But it shuts off your welding right?

[the42up]

ugh....there are so many things i would rather run in a welder-shop shell than glowriders. And if you are going to run blue and want to play a fatty flier with EXTREME synergy with riddlesmith, why not esperzoa? Esperzoa also has the nice plus of being an artifact.

also, are crucibles really all that needed without smokestacks?


i could go a bit more but.... i dont want to completely overhaul the deck.

[LotusHead]

But it shuts off your welding right?

It does indeed, and Indominable will likely get cut.  The welders are there to weld in fatties, weld in spheres that have been countered/discarded to riddler, and to beat down.  I'll trade welder/riddler for a Dark Confident any day. 

Esperzoa also has the nice plus of being an artifact.

I don't own any, so I didn't think of it. But that is a great suggestion.  Esperzoa would make me want to sleeve up Tangle Wires (Which is also a fun option).

ugh....there are so many things i would rather run in a welder-shop shell than glowriders

Glowriders get around Hurkyls Recall (as does Riddler) which is one of the selling points of having a creature based deck.

In fact, were it not for Spheres 13-17, I would consider not running actual shops/5c lands and go with fetchlands/dual lands).

also, are crucibles really all that needed without smokestacks?

I would indeed consider putting in some number of SmokeStacks, but waste and strip recursion is REALLY solid in a null rod/sphere aggro deck.  Also, people REALLY hate to see crucible resolve, so often they waste a juicy blue counterspell or two over it.

[Gambit]

I love me some welder, but it actually doesn't seem busted here, what are you welding in? The 1 of sundering titan? A lodestone golem? Seems like just casting the golem is fine. Without tangle wire or smokestack to abuse welder or some bombs to cheat into play, what is it doing?

Riddlesmith only seems good with crucible in play, the filtering seems ok for moxes & things later but, isn't a bazaar just better? I haven't tested this list at all, but I'm having a hard time seeing why this is better than a more traditional 5color list.

Also, casting cards like glowrider seem difficult, lodestone + SOR makes glowrider cost 5 non workshop mana that is a lot and seems like it would come up often

I should be at superstars in two weeks, so maybe you can smash my face with some riddlesmiths and prove me wrong!

[LotusHead]

I just realized that the point of this deck is to have RiddleSmith and Goblin Welder out at the same time (2 card combo) and having more crucibles make the RiddleSmith better.  Therefore, I want more crucibles. Riddlesmith and Crucible technically is a virtual draw engine.

Next change will likely by
-4 Sphere of Resistance
-1 Indomitable Angel

+5 good cards (crucible and Smokestack/Tanglewire sound good)

With Thorn and Glowrider encouraging creatures in my deck, perhaps Trygon Predator, Gaddock Teeg, Qasali Pridemage might find their way into the 75.

@Gambit I will probably throw in a Bazaar (because I own one), but Bazaars don't swing for 2 like Riddlesmith can.

Edit: Lastly, though I almost always play shops, this build is still firmly with the Unkown Post Scars Meta in mind, and Unrestricted Gush meta in mind.  I want to dodge Hurkyls Recall as best I can.

[the42up]

if you are hell bent on more creatures, and i think i mentioned this already.

ESPERZOA.  You can start to do some silly things with that, a riddlesmith and a welder out.

[LotusHead]

Esperzoas are proxied up now.

Thanks for all the input people.

Current Build:



// Lands
    4  City of Brass
    4  Gemstone Mine
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Ghost Quarter
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Wasteland

// Creatures
    1  Duplicant
    3  Glowrider
    4  Goblin Welder
    4  Lodestone Golem
    4  Esperzoa
    4  Riddlesmith
    1  Sundering Titan

// Spells
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Black Lotus
    3  Null Rod
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Thorn of Amethyst
    1  Trinisphere
    2  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Time Walk
    1 [V09] Tinker

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Duplicant
SB: 1  Ancient Grudge
SB: 1  Balance
SB: 1  Darkblast
SB: 2  Helm of Obedience
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 2  Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2  Gaddock Teeg

[LotusHead]

All right, Glowriders abandoned for now.

This is Riddler/Esperzoa synergy build.  I just can't shop my way through a tourney without Chalice of the Void, and Esperzoa gives me that incentive, play chalice!

Clearly, this build has much in common with that MonoBlue European shop list, but Riddler and Welder need to be in this deck.

Most choices seem pretty standard.  The UR mana base lets me have the option of playing Lightning Bolts in the side (!) Pyroclasm, Red-elemental Blast, Sphere of Resistance, and Dupes/Trikes.

Anything glaringly obvious that I am missing?  I don't know what will impact our NorCal meta more: Unristricted Gush or release of Scars of Mirroden.



// Lands
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Wasteland
    2  Volcanic Island
    4  Island
    1  Mountain
    2  Scalding Tarn

// Creatures
    4  Goblin Welder
    4  Esperzoa
    4  Riddlesmith
    4  Lodestone Golem

// Spells
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Thorn of Amethyst
    1  Trinisphere
    4  Chalice of the Void
    1  Crucible of Worlds
    2  Tangle Wire
    1  Time Walk
    1 [V09] Tinker
    2  Smokestack

[waikiki]

myr battlesphere seems awesome with welder.

[LotusHead]

I draft tomorrow night, and picking up a Battlesphere is on my list of things to get.
But it needs an attack step to do something, and I feel like I would need some more use out of the 4 myrs outside of the "combo".
Sure, welding them for something in grave is possible, but doesn't seem optimal.

Also, everything in my deck costs 4 or less.

I'm thinking this Riddler/Esperzoa development could lead to the next evolution of Control Slaver (or say, WorkShop Slaver), but I still stubbornly have Stax lock pieces (I love them), but could rearrange things to fit in say, Force of Will and Brainstorm/Thirst/1 Mana Drain (I own one, proxies are an issue. )

[Darkenslight]

I draft tomorrow night, and picking up a Battlesphere is on my list of things to get.
But it needs an attack step to do something, and I feel like I would need some more use out of the 4 myrs outside of the "combo".
Sure, welding them for something in grave is possible, but doesn't seem optimal.

Also, everything in my deck costs 4 or less.

I'm thinking this Riddler/Esperzoa development could lead to the next evolution of Control Slaver (or say, WorkShop Slaver), but I still stubbornly have Stax lock pieces (I love them), but could rearrange things to fit in say, Force of Will and Brainstorm/Thirst/1 Mana Drain (I own one, proxies are an issue. )

Not quite, Battlesphere also adds creatures to the field for welding out.  That's a not inconsiderate boost to weld out, say, a Chalice.

[madmanmike25]

Tinker doesn't seem so good here.  You need to have at least one overcosted bomb to Tinker out.  Remember you can always discard it to Riddlesmith and weld it back in.

[LotusHead]

I agree.

Sundering Titan (bad synergy with my colored lands)
Mindslaver (fun!)
Triskellion
Scars of Mirroden Artifact
Platinum Angel
Karn

All of these I would love to tinker for, but maybe Brainstorm is better? (or Mana Drain +1) or Jace 2.0? or Wheel of Fortune/Timetwister? Stax #3? Tangle Wire #3? I'm flexible on Thorns too. We didn't always have infy sphere effects availiable.

Thanks for honest input.

[meadbert]

With Welder and Riddlesmith already in the deck it is tempting to add Uba Mask and Bazaar.  This is especially true considering that Gush is now unrestricted.

I have been trying this myself though and I have not come up with a competitive Riddlesmith list yet.  I think I am in Menendian's camp regarding Riddlesmith right now which is to say I think it definitely has type 1 potential and is good enough in general, but there is no specific deck I have found where it is worth running it.

[Gambit]

This list is looking much better. another card that is really good with esperzoa and with an active welder is Elsewhere Flask, becomes a draw engine with either 'zoa or welder. Can also fix your mana if needed.

[LotusHead]

I was thinking this list needs more Sensei's Divining Top.  This would let me sift through my deck with just Riddler out, and top actually does stuff too.

[silvernail]

The thing is that Riddler is a draw engine in an artifact deck. You can use a draw engine in many ways, but what way do you want to use it in this particular deck ?

As for tinker or weld targets I'd say Steel Hellkite from scars is nice when not having to handle Null Rod. I'd also consider running a few more ETB artifacts to pair with welder and Esperoza. Contagion Clasp or Contagion Engine might be nice against aggro as would Wurmcoil Engine.

As for what other kinds of things you can do with Riddler : Affinity beatdown or storm combo.

Taking a page out of affinity, you may consider running Thoughtcast in this deck if you run more blue sources ( a Mox Opal or 3 ? )

[StrongIslandRob]

Sundering Titan (bad synergy with my colored lands) run pain lands

[LotusHead]

Prophetic Prism seems to be doing the trick.  Fixes mana without sacrificing.