JMS version of The Deck

[ReubenG]

The local and only Type 1 tournament was yesterday (Monster's Den, Minneapolis, MN they only have 2-3 a year).  Showing of only 11 people I believe.  This is the build I took, I was expecting a lot of MUD decks and Tezz decks which I feel I have good matchups against.

Artifact:

1 Black Lotus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

Creature:
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Sundering Titan

Instant:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Brainstorm
1 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Drain
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Nature's Claim
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorcery:
1 Balance
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Life from the Loam
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mind Twist
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Planeswalker:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ajani Vengeant

Land:
1 Academy Ruins
4 City of Brass
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Darkblast
1 Nature's Claim
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Extirpate
1 Myr Battlesphere

Sadly though, my results in the tournament were not the best.  Since the number of participants was low, they only had 3 rounds to top 8 and I went 0-2 and then got the bye.  I didn't take good notes, but here is my recollection:

First opponent was running TPS
Game one I was able to mind break the first Minds desire, but second one was duressed while storming to victory.
I sided in Obeyline, Mindbreak and REB
Game 2 Muligan to 6 with a Leyline & Mindbreak.  Void eliminated Will from being trouble, but again duress took my Mindbreaks. Luckily when his Mind's Desire for 8 wiffed and he scooped as he was out of win condition as this game went long.  I had real trouble this game as my 6 had a Mox and Academy Ruins for mana and I didn't draw into land for a couple of turns.
Game 3 Again mul to 6 with Leyline, 2 Mox, 2 Land, Tinker and Mindbreak.  I went for the Helm turn 2, but it didn't stick.  Looking back I was forcing the issue with the short time left, and should have passed with Mindbreak up.  Most likely if I had, duress would have gotten the mindbreak.  He was a great pilot with TPS and played around Mindbreak landing Bargin as second spell both games 2 & 3.
0-1

Second opponent running Dark Times.
Game 1 I was able to land a shaman and then tinker into a titan early, but gatekeeper ate him and I could not draw into a way to remove the 2/2.
I sided in Obeyline, STP, Darkblast, and Myr battleshere.
Game 2 I opened with a leyline.  He was able to duress my STP. I wasted 1 dark depths, but he had one the following turn.  I died to a 20/20 flying monster next turn.
0-2

Game 3 was a bye and I was out of top 8.

Not the matchups I wanted to see out the gate.  I also didn't play some of the matches the tightest. Despite knowing I needed to hold back and play defense with this deck, I played aggressively and suffered for it in both matches.  Also, duress was a house against my draws. I will need to go back to work to tighten my play against TPS and ANT, as these are fast enough and have enough dispruption that I need my plays to be spot on.

That said, I enjoy playing the deck and always feel I am in the games no matter what deck I am facing.  As far as card selection, I was testing Ajani Vengant in the Sower spot to see how it played with the mana denial plan.  Academy Ruins was in place of Library, because my testing has me never getting library to fire as I almost always have less than 7 cards. I also fit Mindbreak Trap main because I knew I would see a couple storm decks and wanted to shore that matchup up some. 

I like the sideboard plan using cunning wish.  I was expecting Storm decks, MUD, and Tezz decks.  In the room were 2 trygon/tezz decks, 1 cobra/tezz deck, 1 Gushstorm deck, 1 Doomsday deck, 1 TPS deck, 1 Dark Times, 1 Fish, 1 belcher, 1 Mud aggro deck, and my deck. Top4 were Mudaggro vs Gushstorm and Trygon/Tezz vs TPS.  Gushstorm and Tezz split the win.

I do find that Sundering Titan is no good against some decks (MUD and Dark Times for example) and wish I had a second tinker target.  Maybe the Obeyline main would help in these cases, or maybe go the vault/key route.

Any suggestions on wish targets for the board and ways to improve storm decks welcomed.

Would Runeflare trap be an effective wish target to hit storm/fastbond decks that use life for card advantage?

[Marske]

You have wasteland.  Dredge is slow when you play wasteland.  I don't see why people keep saying dredge is too fast.  When I play wasteland I have plenty of time.  When I can't find one I have to have a plan B.  I used to like Cunning Wish for Trap, but people have been running the untargetability leyline, so I switched back to extirpate and just recur it with Regrowth, Reclaim, and Yawgmoth's Will.

I wouldn't run Reclaim tbh, that being said, Wasteland stops them from using bazaar continuously, it doesn't stop them from activating it once, which most of the time is enough to get going. Cunning Wish for Trap only works if they don't play Leyline of sanctity like you said and IF you have the time to get to 4 mana (which, even with moxen etc isn't always going to be turn 1-2). Even without Dread Return dredge can kill you faster then you can stop them with the measures you're advocating.

Leyline isn't any good against Workshop, for real, if you were going to add a card into your deck for workshop it wouldn't be leyline.

I agree, Leyline isn't the hottest against shops, it's also not a total shitter either. If you get it down on turn 0 (which happens) all you have to do is resolve Tinker and win on the spot (should be doable) I'd board them out games 2-3 though. Most likely you're looking at something like Ancient Grudge, Serenity and other sweepers / 2-for-1's when battling Shops.

Chapin admitted that his world's deck sucked.  So many expensive jank bombs at sorcery speed!  I'm sure BRian Weissman didnt tell him that over the phone. 

So you've read his article, kudo's, did you ever speak to Patrick or Brian about the deck? Chapin suggested another untested "The Deck" list with Jace some weeks later which served as a blueprint for my own build (seen in this thread).

Jace is only good when you play Duress/Thoughtseize and you have a reason to play his like 4 Bob.  Jace is a Tez specific card, although he might be good in mono-blue.  I would never even contemplate adding Jace to a deck that didn't run Duress/Seize.  You can't play him into pierce, REB or drain.  You have to have Duress to pull counters.

You've got to be kidding me.... Jace isn't a "Tezz specific" card, that's just about the most rigit thinking I've ever read. Jace is blue and fits in any deck that can reliably get 2UU mana. He's a tool, I've compared him to a swiss army knife in the past, which is still true. The effect Jace grants can be desirable in anything from Combo to Control to hybrids. Now, people would do wel to examen the effects they want / need compared to the card they are running and if they are pulling their weight enough but that's a different discussion all together.

Jace is amazing in decks without Duress, Seize, I've actually had a lot of succes with Jace in R&D Tezz which ran 4 FoW, 3 Drain, 3 Pierce ^(tm). If you think you need Duress or Seize to resolve a 4 mana Sorcery then I'd not play a 3 mana sorcery in your case (Yawg. Will, Tinker) as those are also very hard to resolve.... /sarcasm.... You'll need to know what you're doing in a counter war, what's important to fight over etc. which are basic "control player" skills one should develop. Duress and Seize have their purpose don't get me wrong. But any half decent Control player can probably "make an educated guess" as to if you have a counter in hand or not, good control players can probably "guess" your entire hand.

I think he sucks even with Duress.  Jace is a Tor Giant.

You've played with Jace right? Did you ever get him to resolve?

What you claim here, not only strikes against the argument I've been making since Jace, TMS was spoiled (The OMG-FUCKING-BATSHIT-INSANE-BROKEN one) but also the decks build and piloted by numerous high profile players (Bob Maher, Owen Turtenwald and with them Dave Williams to name a few from Champs) that have outperformed where others have failed and all of the "name" players on TMD (Members of R&D and Meandeck) that have since had the goal to either battle against Jace, TMS or power him out the fastest (Snake City Vault etc) comparing him to a 4 mana 3/3 vanilla might be the strangest thing I've heard in some time now.

There are two schools in type 1 control: The Weissman School and The Menendian School.

Menendian is an influential person for sure and credit where credit is due is certainly appliable, but to go this far is just insane. Clearly you've never played a game of Magic against Rich "The Atog Lord" Shay as he'd probably run circles around both players with his own views on how to play control... there are numerous influential figures in Magic today, but to go as far as saying there are only 2 schools is just not true.

Weissman School:
1) Card advantage wins.
2. A control deck is good if it threatens interaction with its opponent on any given turn and can make the right plays.
3) Mana denial wins.
4) Land Development is key to early game.
5) Bombs that generate overwhelming card advantage are good.

1,3,4,5 are certainly very very true, the last part of 2 doesn't make any sense, making the right plays is something the pilot does decklists have no influence on it, they only (should be build to) enable you to make correct lines of play (aka build to deal with the meta game)

Menendian School:
1) CA does not win and is but a means to an end.
2) A control deck is good if it generates a velocity of early spells that utilize its mana early.
3) Immunity from land destruction wins.
4. Card quality is key to the early game.
5) Bombs are bad and you should play as few as possible and be reliant on tutors to find them.

Let me get into this, as I don't think Steve ever advocated his "school of control" like you claim here.

1. Drawing cards just to draw cards accomplishes nothing, drawing cards needs to have a goal (which has been true since all "control decks" today are basically "combo/Control") Which is similar to what Weisman and others have written about a lot. You can build a deck that outdraws the opponent 3 to 1. But if all you're drawing into is more carddraw there comes a point where all the "advantage" actually turns into a "disadvantage"

2. Doesn't make any sense, interaction with opponent is definitely the key and the reason why combo decks (and dredge which one could also label as a "combo" deck) seek to "not interact" with the opponent as much as possible.

3. Is the most obivious statement ever made in the history of obvious statements and ties directly into 4 from Wiseman's school. Mana development wins matches, the person with the most mana has the most options, options give you the most chance to make the correct play etc.

4. Card quality is true for every stage of the game, not only the early game.

5. Is just insane... the Vintage cardpool is full of "bombs". Steve never ever claimed to run as few bombs as possible. It depends on your definition of a "bomb" though, as Ancestral, Time Walk, FoF, Gifts, Jace, Tinker, Will, Belcher, Bargain, Necro etc etc etc are all "bombs" and the 2 "big bad's" (The Restricted Blue/Black/X control deck and The Restricted Blue/Black/X Combo deck) run most if not ALL of the cards on the restricted list allocated to their archetype, which could all be considered "bombs".

Now enough of that, onto ReubenG's list and some comments:

Artifact:

1 Black Lotus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

This seems solid, EE while an interesting choice is definitely very very good (maybe even better then Deed)

Instant:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Brainstorm
1 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Drain
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Nature's Claim
1 Vampiric Tutor

There are some things that stand out for me, Lightning bolt being the biggest "red flag" It doesn't "Do" enough to warrant sideboard space let alone maindeck space imho. If you're worried about creatures you're better of running STP/PTE if you're worried about Jace, Tezz you're better of running REB /Pyro maindeck. If you're worried about dealing the final 3 points of damage, well.... attack 3 more turns with Shaman

Secondly, Claim seems a bit out of place as you already have Grudge (2 for 1) there and Cunning Wish acting as another Grudge (sideboard) if you so liked, giving you 4 maindeck artifact destruction spells if you so choose. It's also in Green which is arguably your "weakest" color, I only ran green for Grudge's flashback and Regrowth. Running Hurkyl's is a good way to deal with Inkwell and I can easily see that being correct, although I think "destroying" is better then "bouncing" in today's meta, I can definitely see it being correct though.

Sorcery:
1 Balance
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Life from the Loam
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mind Twist
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

I just don't get Life from the Loam at all and why people insist on running it.... it's horrible in The Deck, sure it's uncounterable, but so is CoW if you know what you're doing. To keep using LftL, you need Green mana (again your "weakest and probably tertiary color) and to return it you're "dredging" aka putting other solutions in your yard in favor of having the ability to recast it (get it countered again possibly) all to just replay lands.... this sounds horrible in my book.

Balance serves as an allround sweeper and I can easily see it's inclusion in certain meta's, that being said, it's the card I was most likely to move to the SB and eventually I didn't even run it at all.

Planeswalker:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ajani Vengeant

Ajani is definitely very interesting, I've tested it myself a bit and I'm still undecisive about how good it really is. I just think it's colors are limiting it to much though.

Land:
1 Academy Ruins
4 City of Brass
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Academy ruins doesn't deserve a slot over LoA any day, Yawg. Will, Regrowth, Twister should be enough to keep returning anything you need. Also, I found 4 City of Brass was a bit to much, I prefered the extra basic over the 4th City.

First opponent was running TPS
Game one I was able to mind break the first Minds desire, but second one was duressed while storming to victory.
I sided in Obeyline, Mindbreak and REB

That's the entire problem with "situational" things like Mindbreak trap and the reason why everybody heralded TPS's demise because Trap got printed and I said "it's like playing vs Stifle, you duress them, then go off" It's not incredibly hard to play around if the Combo pilot is halfway decent. As a somewhat decent combo pilot myself, I've never ever feared similar cards (Stifle, Trap, Trickbind etc).

What I found does work are cards like Arcane Lab, Ivory Mask, Rule of Law (which decks like TPS only has 1-2 Chain of Vapor to deal with) unlike Canonist (2-3 Bounce, Chain, possibly some for of creature kill like Perish, Pact, Smother, etc) or "trap like cards (4 force, 4-6 Duress/seize, 1 Misdir). Boarding in stuff like 3sphere (you can tinker it) might also help together with Fow's and mana denial.

Game 2 Muligan to 6 with a Leyline & Mindbreak.  Void eliminated Will from being trouble, but again duress took my Mindbreaks. Luckily when his Mind's Desire for 8 wiffed and he scooped as he was out of win condition as this game went long.  I had real trouble this game as my 6 had a Mox and Academy Ruins for mana and I didn't draw into land for a couple of turns.

How a Desire for +4 can "wiff" barring flipping all mana sources is beyond me (if so, count yourself lucky) Leyline is decent although decks like TPS can easily function without their yard, as a TPS pilot myself, I've come to expect "not" to have access to my yard games 2-3 for some time now (used to be crypt now it's Leyline etc) and it hasn't ever bothered me from winning. I'm not sure if I had used that boarding plan myself.

Game 3 Again mul to 6 with Leyline, 2 Mox, 2 Land, Tinker and Mindbreak.  I went for the Helm turn 2, but it didn't stick.  Looking back I was forcing the issue with the short time left, and should have passed with Mindbreak up.  Most likely if I had, duress would have gotten the mindbreak.  He was a great pilot with TPS and played around Mindbreak landing Bargin as second spell both games 2 & 3.
0-1

What hand did you ship back? The hand you kept was very suspect although it had the potential to be very busted. I'm not sure if I would have kept it. That being said, probably the best thing to take is Helm and not Mindbreak, also, some of these descriptions showcase exactly why mindbreak sucks imho. (opponents going Land, Lotus, next turn, Land, Duress/Ritual, Bargain etc) It's so easy to play around if you know what you're doing.

Second opponent running Dark Times.
Game 1 I was able to land a shaman and then tinker into a titan early, but gatekeeper ate him and I could not draw into a way to remove the 2/2.

Tinkering into Titan early might not have done the trick, if you landed Shaman how come Gatekeep ate Titan ? (Gatekeeper doesn't target)

I sided in Obeyline, STP, Darkblast, and Myr battleshere.

Game 2 I opened with a leyline.  He was able to duress my STP. I wasted 1 dark depths, but he had one the following turn.  I died to a 20/20 flying monster next turn.
0-2

Beyond having a "fast combo finish" I can see Obeyline, beyond that I have no clue why you'd want it. STP is great but Darkblast suffers from the same problem LftL has (Dredging) I would have picked Edict (deals with 20/20's) over it for sure which you also had in the board. Another potential line of play is boarding in Extirpate (to take Hexmage / DD after you waste the land, stop the creature) and just dissasembling his combo entirely. That being said, "Sui black" has historically been an "awfull" MU for The Deck and I've played numerous games vs Dark Times with it, they are always close fought battles.

Not the matchups I wanted to see out the gate.  I also didn't play some of the matches the tightest. Despite knowing I needed to hold back and play defense with this deck, I played aggressively and suffered for it in both matches.

Those were indeed some very nasty Matchups, Storm and Sui are historically the worst MU's for The Deck to face, which remains true even today. Playing thight and focussing on what's important is still key and can swing those matchups for sure. One thing The Deck rewards is patience, it isn't a strategy one should try if they aren't comfortable with just beating down with a 1/1 Shaman for 20 turns to win. (which is surprisingly like how I won most of my matches) You can't "force" the offensive, your entire goal should be to "not die" which makes winning at some point inevitable.

Also, duress was a house against my draws. I will need to go back to work to tighten my play against TPS and ANT, as these are fast enough and have enough dispruption that I need my plays to be spot on.

Discard is very very strong, there isn't really anything one can do about it. Fighting storm is rough and needs a lot of practice to get it anywhere near "decent" so don't worry about it to much, it's probably the hardest MU you ever play with The Deck.

I do find that Sundering Titan is no good against some decks (MUD and Dark Times for example) and wish I had a second tinker target.  Maybe the Obeyline main would help in these cases, or maybe go the vault/key route.

Agreed, which is why I settled on Obeyline main, at least Leyline is "usefull" in some if not against most decks as most still revolve around Yawg. Will (also nice to have vs Dredge game 1) and Helm isn't completely dead (I've milled opponents to death over several turns in the past and it messes with Topdeck tutors like it's nothing) where's Time Vault is pratically wasting 2 mana if played without Key and Key itself only interactis with Titan (Semi-Vigilance) and mana producers like Crypt, Sol Ring, Vault, which isn't enough.

Would Runeflare trap be an effective wish target to hit storm/fastbond decks that use life for card advantage?

I don't see Trap doing anything relevant. Having ways to limit their "spells per turn" seems like the best option (3sphere, Arcane lab, Rule of Law etc) combined with Counters, Mind Twist, Mana Denial it's probably the best bet you have together with having a "combo kill" yourself (also where Obeyline shines)

[ReubenG]

@Marske

Thanks for the replies; the discussion of card choices really helps solidify my build.

Now enough of that, onto ReubenG's list and some comments:

Artifact:

1 Black Lotus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

This seems solid, EE while an interesting choice is definitely very very good (maybe even better then Deed)

I agree, EE in my testing has been a better card for me.  It is easier to cast and activate in the same turn and earlier in the game.

Instant:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Brainstorm
1 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Drain
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Nature's Claim
1 Vampiric Tutor

There are some things that stand out for me, Lightning bolt being the biggest "red flag" It doesn't "Do" enough to warrant sideboard space let alone main deck space imho. If you're worried about creatures you're better of running STP/PTE if you're worried about Jace, Tezz you're better of running REB /Pyro main deck. If you're worried about dealing the final 3 points of damage, well.... attack 3 more turns with Shaman

Secondly, Claim seems a bit out of place as you already have Grudge (2 for 1) there and Cunning Wish acting as another Grudge (sideboard) if you so liked, giving you 4 main deck artifact destruction spells if you so choose. It's also in Green which is arguably your "weakest" color, I only ran green for Grudge's flashback and Regrowth. Running Hurkyl's is a good way to deal with Inkwell and I can easily see that being correct, although I think "destroying" is better then "bouncing" in today's meta, I can definitely see it being correct though.

I chose lightning bolt for all the key creatures (Lodestone, Trygon, Confidant, ect) and for Jace.  I felt it did more than a STP/Edict when you could get a planeswalker.  I think it went back to when I had no cunning wish main and could get instants from the board.  With the wish main, I can use this as an open slot for something else, and I would guess REB would be much better.

I had claim in as I thought I would see more MUD decks, again as with Lightning bolt, having wish main might give me the chance to open this slot for something else.  MUD is most likely going to chalice for 1 anyway and makes Grudge that much stronger of a choice, and I can wish for the second in the board.  This is also supported by the fact I run Hurkyl's main to have an out to Inky and it being strong against MUD in a deck with wastelands.

Sorcery:
1 Balance
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Life from the Loam
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mind Twist
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

I just don't get Life from the Loam at all and why people insist on running it.... it's horrible in The Deck, sure it's uncounterable, but so is CoW if you know what you're doing. To keep using LftL, you need Green mana (again your "weakest and probably tertiary color) and to return it you're "dredging" aka putting other solutions in your yard in favor of having the ability to recast it (get it countered again possibly) all to just replay lands.... this sounds horrible in my book.

Balance serves as an allround sweeper and I can easily see it's inclusion in certain meta's, that being said, it's the card I was most likely to move to the SB and eventually I didn't even run it at all.

LftL has been god at times, and I was running it main over CoW due to wanting to dig further with Jace and when testing with Library, getting to 7 cards more often, it also stronger in gift piles you want added with strip and wasteland, and if Fact of Fiction is run (I don't currently), Lftl is stronger as well.   I haven't found the color requirement to pose a concern with city and a tropical as it’s more of a mana lock mid game card.  The dredging only comes into play after you have cast it (unless discarded which rare). Whether countered or not (I don't see it getting countered unless your opponent is on their heels in the match), dredging LftL is really not much of an issue as 1 dredge is usually enough to do the job and happens midgame or as a lock to finish the game.  With Brainstorm, Jace, and if Ponder or Preordain is run main, the business cards dredged can be minimized and in certain situations, dead cards brainstormed way can be pulled from the deck in a similar way to a shuffle effect.  In this environment with so much artifact hate, keeping a CoW active for the 3 turns is difficult compared to a single dredge activation gives you.  Having gotten more time with this build, the added functionality with Jace, Library, and its uncounterablilty may or may not be enough, but it is much closer of a choice than I think you stated.  CoW being a tinker target against builds where titan is weak is a bonus over Lftl, but it is fragile compared to LftL. The tinker option for CoW does become weaker if a second tinker option is available such as Helm as you discussed later in your post.  I will keep in mind in testing when LftL is available and if CoW would be stronger, but I am really hesitant to change it out of the build.

I feel the same way about Balance as you do, but with cobra, trygon, confidant, and lodestone in the meta, I think it currently is a strong choice.  I was also expecting to see a GAT list as well (though Gush masks balance weaker).

Planeswalker:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ajani Vengeant

Ajani is definitely very interesting, I've tested it myself a bit and I'm still indecisive about how good it really is. I just think its colors are limiting it to much though.

I am not certain about Ajani as well.  I was testing in the slot vs. Sower.  My thinking was most creatures I am going to take control of with sower could be just eliminated with the -2 ability of Ajani with the benefit of the tap ability to go with the mana denial plan against creatureless decks Sower would be weak against.  I went to a Tundra main to support it along with Balance.  I am not sold either, but I will continue to test it.

Land:
1 Academy Ruins
4 City of Brass
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Academy ruins doesn't deserve a slot over LoA any day, Yawg. Will, Regrowth, Twister should be enough to keep returning anything you need. Also, I found 4 City of Brass was a bit to much, I prefered the extra basic over the 4th City.

I agree, I need to stick with LoA.  Even though I haven’t been triggering it in testing, I haven’t gotten Academy Ruins to work either.  I have liked 4 city for the added support of white in the main.  I have run 3 in the past, with a basic island in its place. With Titan and Balance the 4 city becomes stronger.

First opponent was running TPS
Game one I was able to mind break the first Minds desire, but second one was duressed while storming to victory.
I sided in Obeyline, Mindbreak and REB

That's the entire problem with "situational" things like Mindbreak trap and the reason why everybody heralded TPS's demise because Trap got printed and I said "it's like playing vs Stifle, you duress them, then go off" It's not incredibly hard to play around if the Combo pilot is halfway decent. As a somewhat decent combo pilot myself, I've never ever feared similar cards (Stifle, Trap, Trickbind etc).

What I found does work are cards like Arcane Lab, Ivory Mask, Rule of Law (which decks like TPS only has 1-2 Chain of Vapor to deal with) unlike Canonist (2-3 Bounce, Chain, possibly some for of creature kill like Perish, Pact, Smother, etc) or "trap like cards (4 force, 4-6 Duress/seize, 1 Misdir). Boarding in stuff like 3sphere (you can tinker it) might also help together with Fow's and mana denial.

I agree Mindbreak is easy to play around unless someone goes “all in” without a duress effect.

I like the suggestions above (especially 3sphere as a sideboard tinker target in games 2&3).  I think I need to focus the sideboard more for Storm and less for MUD due to MUD being an easier deck to deal with for “The Deck”.  I think Ivory Mask effects would be the most effective early in the game so a Leyline of Sanctity would be the best, but 4 cards would be too difficult with Leyline of the Void all in the side (though if some voids moved main, may free up enough space)

I will have to look into something that can work main that will be effective enough for inclusion as my meta usually includes several storm decks, and since the match up is in their favor, I would like to support it main deck. Maybe Arcane Lab since it’s blue, but I need to contemplate more.

Game 2 Muligan to 6 with a Leyline & Mindbreak.  Void eliminated Will from being trouble, but again duress took my Mindbreaks. Luckily when his Mind's Desire for 8 wiffed and he scooped as he was out of win condition as this game went long.  I had real trouble this game as my 6 had a Mox and Academy Ruins for mana and I didn't draw into land for a couple of turns.

How a Desire for +4 can "wiff" barring flipping all mana sources is beyond me (if so, count yourself lucky) Leyline is decent although decks like TPS can easily function without their yard, as a TPS pilot myself, I've come to expect "not" to have access to my yard games 2-3 for some time now (used to be crypt now it's Leyline etc) and it hasn't ever bothered me from winning. I'm not sure if I had used that boarding plan myself.

The Mind’s Desire flipped 5 land and 3 counters.  We both shook our heads in disbelief.

I agree that I need a better plan of side-boarding for Storm matchups.  My thought with my deck in its current build was to combo out with obeyline and add mindbreak for storm.

Game 3 Again mul to 6 with Leyline, 2 Mox, 2 Land, Tinker and Mindbreak.  I went for the Helm turn 2, but it didn't stick.  Looking back I was forcing the issue with the short time left, and should have passed with Mindbreak up.  Most likely if I had, duress would have gotten the mindbreak.  He was a great pilot with TPS and played around Mindbreak landing Bargin as second spell both games 2 & 3.
0-1

What hand did you ship back? The hand you kept was very suspect although it had the potential to be very busted. I'm not sure if I would have kept it. That being said, probably the best thing to take is Helm and not Mindbreak, also, some of these descriptions showcase exactly why mindbreak sucks imho. (opponents going Land, Lotus, next turn, Land, Duress/Ritual, Bargain etc) It's so easy to play around if you know what you're doing.

If I remember correctly, I shipped back a no land hand. I agree with you on Mindbreak.  I learned a valuable lesson from these matches, Mindbreak is easy to play around.

Second opponent running Dark Times.
Game 1 I was able to land a shaman and then tinker into a titan early, but gatekeeper ate him and I could not draw into a way to remove the 2/2.

Tinkering into Titan early might not have done the trick, if you landed Shaman how come Gatekeep ate Titan ? (Gatekeeper doesn't target)

I left out that he attacked into my shaman with a confidant, I chump blocked to keep him from drawing into cards. EOT, mystical for Recall. My turn draw into tinker, and play into titan.

I sided in Obeyline, STP, Darkblast, and Myr battleshere.

Game 2 I opened with a leyline.  He was able to duress my STP. I wasted 1 dark depths, but he had one the following turn.  I died to a 20/20 flying monster next turn.
0-2

Beyond having a "fast combo finish" I can see Obeyline, beyond that I have no clue why you'd want it. STP is great but Darkblast suffers from the same problem LftL has (Dredging) I would have picked Edict (deals with 20/20's) over it for sure which you also had in the board. Another potential line of play is boarding in Extirpate (to take Hexmage / DD after you waste the land, stop the creature) and just disassembling his combo entirely. That being said, "Sui black" has historically been an "awfull" MU for The Deck and I've played numerous games vs Dark Times with it, they are always close fought battles.

I figured the edict would not be useful if he stuck another creature, I went darkblast for confidant. I should have done both.  I knew he would have will and wanted a faster finish so that is why I did obeyline.    My real trouble this match is he landed a Hymn after the duress to get me to pitch 2 more cards.  I agree Extirpate would have been much better to get the Dark Depths I wasted, great tip I didn’t think of at the time. Frankly, I just didn’t expect to see this deck.  Now that I have played it and realize it can give me trouble, I will have to test more.

Not the matchups I wanted to see out the gate.  I also didn't play some of the matches the tightest. Despite knowing I needed to hold back and play defense with this deck, I played aggressively and suffered for it in both matches.

Those were indeed some very nasty Matchups, Storm and Sui are historically the worst MU's for The Deck to face, which remains true even today. Playing thight and focussing on what's important is still key and can swing those matchups for sure. One thing The Deck rewards is patience, it isn't a strategy one should try if they aren't comfortable with just beating down with a 1/1 Shaman for 20 turns to win. (which is surprisingly like how I won most of my matches) You can't "force" the offensive, your entire goal should be to "not die" which makes winning at some point inevitable.

Also, duress was a house against my draws. I will need to go back to work to tighten my play against TPS and ANT, as these are fast enough and have enough dispruption that I need my plays to be spot on.

Discard is very very strong, there isn't really anything one can do about it. Fighting storm is rough and needs a lot of practice to get it anywhere near "decent" so don't worry about it to much, it's probably the hardest MU you ever play with The Deck.

I did see myself getting too aggressive in some matches, which I know going in was something I didn’t want to do, I just couldn’t resist some of the games states with the cards in my hand.  I need to work on that.

I will have to go back and focus on Storm more to get the more comfortable with the matchups, as well as solidify my side-board strategy and card choices.  In the last tournament (and first with “The Deck”) I didn’t have near the trouble with the storm decks I faced, I countered the right stuff and Mindbreak worked a few times.  Looking back, my opponents that 1st tournament were not as skilled as this TPS player (He plays Legacy Tendrils as well).

I do find that Sundering Titan is no good against some decks (MUD and Dark Times for example) and wish I had a second tinker target.  Maybe the Obeyline main would help in these cases, or maybe go the vault/key route.

Agreed, which is why I settled on Obeyline main, at least Leyline is "usefull" in some if not against most decks as most still revolve around Yawg. Will (also nice to have vs Dredge game 1) and Helm isn't completely dead (I've milled opponents to death over several turns in the past and it messes with Topdeck tutors like it's nothing) where's Time Vault is pratically wasting 2 mana if played without Key and Key itself only interactis with Titan (Semi-Vigilance) and mana producers like Crypt, Sol Ring, Vault, which isn't enough.

I am going to see if I can fit 2 Void 1 Helm main and test it. My hunch is that it will not decrease win percentages much at all against decks that you would not want it against.  Also, it has the benefit of opening 3 sideboard spaces for other things, which overall may sway more matchups due to stronger sideboard strategies against “The Decks” weakest matchups.

Would Runeflare trap be an effective wish target to hit storm/fastbond decks that use life for card advantage?

I don't see Trap doing anything relevant. Having ways to limit their "spells per turn" seems like the best option (3sphere, Arcane lab, Rule of Law etc) combined with Counters, Mind Twist, Mana Denial it's probably the best bet you have together with having a "combo kill" yourself (also where Obeyline shines)

I agree that “limit their "spells per turn" seems like the best option (3sphere, Arcane lab, Rule of Law etc)” is a stronger strategy (and I will work to find a main card and add 3sphere to side), but I want to have a wishable instant that will help the match up in the side-board.  Maybe Mindbreak is that card even though they can play around it.

[limitedwhole]

I think laying out the Weissman and Menendian principles and reflecting on them is useful.  Clearly these are the two most influencial people as regards type 1 deckbuilding as far as control strategies is concerned.  While Steve never laid out his principles as such, I think after looking and playing against Menendian decks for many years now (since Steve first starting playing competitively and writing), these are basic principles that Steve follows when building a decklist.  Do you remember when Steve first became vocal when Gro was having its early battles against the deck at the tail end of Oscar Tans tenure?  Do you remeber how bad the deck builds were?  Multiple Fire/Ices, powder kegs, pernicous deeds, multiple morphlings.  Just terrible builds.  No swords to Plowshares.  No maindeck REB.  I mean the deck builds were terrible and Grow cut through them like a hot knife through butter.  People would say things like swords is bad in that one matchups so I will make the following 12 card changes to my deck  to get rid of two swords for one match in game 1. It was all about the metagame.  Lol.

When you play wasteland against dredge it is a crippling blow.  By no means do you auto-win the matchup.  But that is not my intent.  I want to use cards that are generally good and already present in the deck to play against dredge.  I think perhaps you are forgetting that dredge has to cast dredge return.  It can be countered.  When dredge is slow, cards like cabal therapy lose much of their effectiveness.  i generally have no problem with dredge unless they get a critical mass of cabal therapies or get allot of tokens right away.  There are allot of ways to attack a dredge deck other than hosing it.  What good does dread return do when you counter it and they have no bridges?  What good are the bridges when you swords the ichorid and they only have one bridge and one therapy?  There are allot of situations like this when you waste the bazaar where dredge has to have multiple game conditions be "true" to be effective.

You are looking at cards in isolation and saying that they won't beat dredge.  I'm not trying to hose it, I am trying to outplay it.  There are games I am willing to ceed against it just like I seed, Duress, Force, lotus, crypt, Vault Key.  No one expects to win against auto-win hands in type 1.  Why would i expect to win against double bridge, ichorid, therapytherapytherapy?

[nineisnoone]

I think you, Weismann, and Menendian would all be better served if any of their ideas or "principles" would just be argued and discussed on their own merit.  Once you start invoking someone's name, you get all these secondary associations which, even in the case of them being accurate and desired, would only serve to obscure the conversation.  If there is an idea you want to promote or argue against, just speak for it on its own merit.  We're just talking here.  There's no need to create labels or schools of thought, especially ad hoc randomly in a single discussion that isn't devoted to the subject.  Unless you are planning on writing a book or something.

The thing with Wasteland is that it's very dependant on both the deck you run, and the deck you run it against.  Against some decks, you can just get a random waste into a mana screw into whatever for the win.  Against Dredge, you'll never mana screw them.  Eventually, they'll start dredging so you lose the chance for random wins.  Also the deck isn't a combo deck, it isn't even an aggro deck.  The deck (i'm no expert on it, so feel free to correct me) is more attrition/efficiency oriented, which means that it gets it wins off advantages off actual trades. This means that it doesn't really have the tools to take advantage by the timing window created by Wasteland.  If the opponent does nothing, you do nothing, but since you need to trade to accumulate advantages, this isn't really all that important.  (barring Jace of course).  The deck isn't going to reach some critical threshold where it can just win like TPS or something.  This is why its always meta oriented because you need cards that will actually interact with the opponent.


And this is not to say that Wasteland is bad. But I wouldn't overestimate it in this match-up.

[limitedwhole]

I think you, Weismann, and Menendian would all be better served if any of their ideas or "principles" would just be argued and discussed on their own merit.  Once you start invoking someone's name, you get all these secondary associations which, even in the case of them being accurate and desired, would only serve to obscure the conversation.  If there is an idea you want to promote or argue against, just speak for it on its own merit.  We're just talking here.  There's no need to create labels or schools of thought, especially ad hoc randomly in a single discussion that isn't devoted to the subject.  Unless you are planning on writing a book or something.

The thing with Wasteland is that it's very dependant on both the deck you run, and the deck you run it against.  Against some decks, you can just get a random waste into a mana screw into whatever for the win.  Against Dredge, you'll never mana screw them.  Eventually, they'll start dredging so you lose the chance for random wins.  Also the deck isn't a combo deck, it isn't even an aggro deck.  The deck (i'm no expert on it, so feel free to correct me) is more attrition/efficiency oriented, which means that it gets it wins off advantages off actual trades. This means that it doesn't really have the tools to take advantage by the timing window created by Wasteland.  If the opponent does nothing, you do nothing, but since you need to trade to accumulate advantages, this isn't really all that important.  (barring Jace of course).  The deck isn't going to reach some critical threshold where it can just win like TPS or something.  This is why its always meta oriented because you need cards that will actually interact with the opponent.


And this is not to say that Wasteland is bad. But I wouldn't overestimate it in this match-up.

Normally, groups of principles that pop up over and over are named out of convention so that they are more easily referred to.  I'm not trying to wound anyones pride.  It is useful to have things grouped as such by words.  Fruit is an example of a word that groups many things togther by convention for ease of discussion.

I wouldn't underestimate wastelande in the dredge matchup either.  Clearly it is not enough alone.  But with a pile of other cards that are generally good, I think a workable build that is good against dredge without having to resort to hosing is possible.  The main reason I went for living wish for tabernacle is that is entails only having 1 bad card maindeck and the bad card is not really bad just mediocre.  The last three games I have played against dredge have all been disconnects.  I am sure that I am far from having an optimal list, but I think that maybe Living Wish for Tabernacle is part of The Deck now unless a better solution is found.  When dredge forst cam eout I played Tormod's Crypt and Timwtwister main and 1 extirpate in the sideboard and had allot fo success.  Timetwister is allot weaker against MUD than stax however and Tormod's crypt no longer works that well if dredge decks reliably play the white leyline.

[nineisnoone]

dot. dot. dot. we don't call certain plants "fruits" for "ease of discussion". tomato. peanut. bacon.

aaannnnyyywaayyyss...

tabernacle?  the  upkeep on your creatures card?  i don't see that as being very good.  You don't even need FKZ.  Most Dredge builds (or at least any I'd run) will splash some mana, and every Dredge build could return a generally lethal Troll.  Also I was a big promoter of Primus in the past which could deal with this.  I like Sun Titan now which can return a mana source as well.

and if you are casting living wish (which i question as a card choice), i would say the better option would be bojuka bog.  yes, it still gets blocked by the new leyline, but honestly i don't think that is that great of a card for dredge.  or actually, you could grab Yixlid Jailer which actually is probably better than bog.

[Marske]

I think laying out the Weissman and Menendian principles and reflecting on them is useful.  Clearly these are the two most influencial people as regards type 1 deckbuilding as far as control strategies is concerned.  While Steve never laid out his principles as such, I think after looking and playing against Menendian decks for many years now (since Steve first starting playing competitively and writing), these are basic principles that Steve follows when building a decklist.  Do you remember when Steve first became vocal when Gro was having its early battles against the deck at the tail end of Oscar Tans tenure?  Do you remeber how bad the deck builds were?  Multiple Fire/Ices, powder kegs, pernicous deeds, multiple morphlings.  Just terrible builds.  No swords to Plowshares.  No maindeck REB.  I mean the deck builds were terrible and Grow cut through them like a hot knife through butter.  People would say things like swords is bad in that one matchups so I will make the following 12 card changes to my deck  to get rid of two swords for one match in game 1. It was all about the metagame.  Lol.

I'm pretty sure (although my account doesn't reflect it) that I've been around in Vintage since 2001 and around in Magic even longer, so what's your point again? Mind you, I'll refrain from throwing around CV's as I'm sure most of the TMD users already know who I am and what I did.

Let me try and take each individual part of your next post and reflect on it.

When you play wasteland against dredge it is a crippling blow.  By no means do you auto-win the matchup.  But that is not my intent.  I want to use cards that are generally good and already present in the deck to play against dredge.

For us to battle an opponent we need to understand the opponent. What are the goals, what do they need to accomplish those goals? Knowing the answers to these questions is vital for The Deck as you're entire plan is to throw then off the tools they need to accomplish their goals.

Dredge (formally known as Ichorid) wants to fill up the yard with Bazaar of Baghdad preferably with cards sporting the dredge mechanic so it can get even more cards in the yard. It then wants to "reanimate" a big dork older builds had Sutured Goul - Dragon Breath and newer builds have Iona, Terastodon, Primus or Grave-Troll if need be or a lot of 2/2 Zombies which can get turned into 3/3 Haste zombies by Flame-kin Zealot at times if the pilot wants the "combo-esque" kill. In essence, dredge wants to avoid interacting with you at all cost. As long as Dredge isn't halted in their plan they couldn't care less what you're doing, except maybe if you're winning faster then they are (few decks can)

Now, ask yourself, what does Wasteland do to stop their main objective of filling the graveyard?

Let me skip ahead and answer it: Absolutely Nothing....

They open with Bazaar of Baghdad (because they win the die roll, damn misers!) and pass, you, thinking you got the stone cold nuts in having Wasteland play Wasteland and target the Bazaar for Destruction a crippling blow for sure! They, being the Demented Zombie Masters they are, activate it in response dumping 2 Trolls and a Ichorid in their yard. You, thinking you've crippled them pass the turn. They start dredging Grave-Trolls and kill you on turn 3.

Sure this is with their "optimal" hand of 2 Grave-Trolls. Point is, Wasteland doesn't do anything in stopping their main plan, they don't need mana, nor do they need to activate Bazaar more then once to get their "engine" (Dredging back cards) going which will lead to your death. Dredge has inevitability on their side if you don't take out their Yard.

I think perhaps you are forgetting that dredge has to cast dredge return.  It can be countered.  When dredge is slow, cards like cabal therapy lose much of their effectiveness. 

It can be countered for sure, but most dredge players know enough to Cabal Therapy you FIRST before throwing out Dread Return. Even if they are slow, they are going to be faster then The Deck in killing you.

i generally have no problem with dredge unless they get a critical mass of cabal therapies or get allot of tokens right away.  There are allot of ways to attack a dredge deck other than hosing it. 

I can't comment on the fact if you really have no issues because I have A) No idea who you are and B) No idea what kind of Dredge players you're facing.

It is however true that there are numerous ways to deal with things in Magic (yes this includes Dredge) but when preparing for a event I'm not looking for "other ways" I'm looking for the way that gets me the most bang for my buck, that guarantees me and not the opponent advances to the next round. Dredge is a monstrosity of proportions we've hardly ever seen and it hasn't been around all that long compared to other archetypes. People are just now figuring out it's true potential and with that how to battle it.

What good does dread return do when you counter it and they have no bridges?  What good are the bridges when you swords the ichorid and they only have one bridge and one therapy?  There are allot of situations like this when you waste the bazaar where dredge has to have multiple game conditions be "true" to be effective.

It's all irrelevant, Dredge will have Inevitability on you in the long run unless you deal with their Graveyard. You have few ways to interact with Dredge. It all boils down to interaction in this case, the Dredge pilot wants to Not-Interact with your counterspells and all the things you do as it will gladly ignore most things you're doing like resolving Ancestral. You however, want to push them into interacting on your terms (which are terms you're better equipped at working under / with). This means you have to take their way of Not-Interacting (Filling the yard) and force them to Interact (not being able to fill the yard) in which case it plays out as a very very bad beatdown deck.

You are looking at cards in isolation and saying that they won't beat dredge.  I'm not trying to hose it, I am trying to outplay it.  There are games I am willing to ceed against it just like I seed, Duress, Force, lotus, crypt, Vault Key.  No one expects to win against auto-win hands in type 1.  Why would i expect to win against double bridge, ichorid, therapytherapytherapy?

I'm definitely not looking at cards in their isolation, most of my wins came from having Wasteland + Leyline of the Void in play, Wasteland was crucial in not letting them have mana to deal with Leyline, other then that, Wasteland wasn't all that usefull when trying to push them to interact with me.

Now, with that out of the way, lets look at your other proposed solution: Playing Living Wish - Tabernacle.

Let me try and examen it's merit's vs Dredge (I'm trying here guys really). Lets assume for some reason you know you're up vs Dredge, you even had mana for Living Wish AND a land drop (trying to think of the most optimal scenario here) So you Living Wish (MISE!) and grab Tabernacle and play it, surely Dredge will not be able to function now as the Wasteland you're holding will provide all the time you need to beat down with Gorilla Shaman (for 20 turns as you have no combo kill) or Tinker for Sundering Titan to kill them.

So they start with Bazaar (because lets give them something to shall we) and dump some 2x Bloodghasts, 1 Darkmore Salvage  in the yard. You untap and waste their Bazaar, being sure you've locked up the game. They Dredge during their turn (Lets say a Dakmor Salvage ?!) merely 2 cards, hitting a bridge and another dredger. They play the salvage bringing back 2 Ghasts, which is fine because you have Tabernacle ! You land, Go because you need the UU mana for Draining their Dread Return when they do try and go for it and you're in perfect shape because they are wicked slow now. They fail to pay the upkeep for Ghast, get 2 zombies and Dredge (lets assume the other lowest dredger, Golgari Thug) for 4 and hit an Ichorid, Bridge, more dredgers etc. Even though you're wiping away their horde of beasts every upkeep they get Ichorids and at some point get Bloodghasts with Haste or god forbit they even get a Dread  Return + lethal Zombies at some point in time.

Since you don't have a "combo" finish you'll not be able to capitalize from the gaps Tabernacle is giving you. It's also severly limiting you in keeping your own win conditions around + Counter Magic. Now, keep in mind that I tried to think up the "best" possible opening to make Tabernacle "good" if you don't have Waste and they have Bazaar and higher dredgers, they'll kill you without ever having any trouble with Tabernacle. I'm not even getting into scenario's where you don't have Living Wish and they open strong, once you've not pushed them to interact with you by the 2nd-3rd turn you're dead, even IF the game might not already be over.

[limitedwhole]

"Yes!  Of course how obvious, how could I have missed it?  Wastelanding the bazaar does nothing!  Dredges main goal is to fill up the graveyard with bad cards.  Wastelanding the bazaar and playing spellpierces only cuts them down to one third their pace!  I have been a fool to wasteland the bazaar.  To think the games were going to turn 15 and the whole time I was wrong... dredge was going to beat The Deck through inevitability not the other way around.  I will definately board out Ancestral Recall from now on.  It clearly is no good against dredge as they want to be non-interactive with all my interactive cards and Ancestral Recall is not directly interactive." - David Hume A Treatise of Human Nature.

Not many people realise it but David Hume was an avid MTG enthusiast.  I looked and looked and finally found this passage.  Marske is clearly correct and better informed than I.  I will play piles of sorcery speed jank bombs despite the fact that it is a known strategy for failure.

[Marske]

@Limitedwhole,
Lets set some things straight here. Let me break down our argument, this is what where talking about:

You're suggesting Living Wish (Sorcery) and Tabernacle (Sorcery speed) and Wasteland (Sorcery speed) to deal with dredge and are suggesting people attack Bazaar / their mana and sweep the board. Along with spot removal to deal with any leftover Ichorid's and Bloodghasts.

I'm suggesting people forget about trying to deal with Dredge as any normal deck (as dredge doesn't suffer from Mana denial OR board sweepers) and that the key to beating dredge is to attack the graveyard.

This is the basis of our argument, I haven't suggested anything in the form of "people should play card X", I'm only claiming one defeats dredge by taking out the graveyard, which has been proven to be correct since Dredge first was build. I'll even go as far as respond to the quote you posted, for the sake of saying, at least I tried.

"Yes!  Of course how obvious, how could I have missed it?  Wastelanding the bazaar does nothing!  Dredges main goal is to fill up the graveyard with bad cards.  Wastelanding the bazaar and playing spellpierces only cuts them down to one third their pace!

What the HECK are you Spell Piercing ?! Narcomoeba (triggered ability) or Ichorid (triggered ability) or Bloodghast (triggered ability)? Calling Golgari-Gravetroll, Stinkweed Imp, Golgari Thug and stuff like Bloodghast, Ichorid "bad" cards might be true if the deck were actually interested in casting those cards..... A single Bazaar activation gets their engine going, wasting it after that (with The Deck that is) has no real point beyond cutting down "some" speed. But like I said, you're not a "fast" deck. You're not going to kill people by turn 4-5, unless you run a combo (TV/Key, Painter/Stone, Leyline/Helm)

I have been a fool to wasteland the bazaar.  To think the games were going to turn 15 and the whole time I was wrong... dredge was going to beat The Deck through inevitability not the other way around.

Which inevitability do you have ? If left unchecked you're going to resolve stuff like Sundering Titan or Gorilla Shaman (which you think people should run as a 4 off) these are not "fast" clocks and it's foolish to think that by Wasting Bazaar you'll be stalling dredge long enough for you to beat them to death with a 1/1.

I will definately board out Ancestral Recall from now on.  It clearly is no good against dredge as they want to be non-interactive with all my interactive cards and Ancestral Recall is not directly interactive." - David Hume A Treatise of Human Nature.

This is foolish, what you're forgetting is the fact that Dredge, "shuts down" (or at least makes them horrible ineffective) the following cards:

All Counter Magic, all Spotremoval, all creatures that don't gain a shitton of life and/or kill the opponent with 2 swings. That's an awful lot of stuff that "normally" would work against other decks, but loses tremendous amounts of value vs Dredge.

Not many people realise it but David Hume was an avid MTG enthusiast.  I looked and looked and finally found this passage.  Marske is clearly correct and better informed than I.  I will play piles of sorcery speed jank bombs despite the fact that it is a known strategy for failure.

So that's the reason why Sorcery speed stuff like Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, Time Vault, Tendrils of Agony, Empty The Warrens have never ever seen play! We've been such fools for playing those obviously "jank" cards. This statement you made wil probably revolutionize Vintage as we know it, thank you.

All kidding aside, It's not a known strategy for failure, this is just a ridiculous statement. There's very few instants in the game that actually "swing" stuff around (Gifts, FoF). The "meat" of the format's best cards are sorceries or act at sorcery speed...

[limitedwhole]

"You're suggesting Living Wish (Sorcery) and Tabernacle (Sorcery speed) and Wasteland (Sorcery speed) to deal with dredge and are suggesting people attack Bazaar / their mana and sweep the board. Along with spot removal to deal with any leftover Ichorid's and Bloodghasts."
Yes I am suggesting that
1) Draw Spells
2) Recursion Cards
3) Living Wish/Tabernacle
4) Swords to Plowshares
5) WAstelands
6) Some small level of recursable graveyard hate element(s).
7) Counterspells to protect my hand from therapy, counter flashback spells, and counter non-bazaar enabler spells.
8) ZORB!  Gotta love immortality.
are sufficient to deal with dredge.
I also like that they cannot attack into gorilla shaman or they will have the bridges pulled.  I also like how shaman pulls bridges with tabernacle.  I think using as few non-general cards as possible against dredge gives you good enough game against them that you feel comfortable playing the matchup and lets you have a much better sideboard.

Ultimately this matchup is about card advantage.  Dredges form of card advantage is to dump its library into it graveyard and use the cards in its graveyard as if they were in their hand.  By Slowing down the pace of this dumping, dredge does not gain card advantage early, and we will be gaining allot which we use to pick apart their deck piece by piece play by play with our insane level of card advantage.  Dredge is extremely slow without bazaar and usually musters up and aquamoeba and sacs it for cabaal, and puts out an ichorid or bloodghast which gets swords.  At that point I'm the non-interactive deck and playing and replaying every broken card in the book.  

[Marske]

Yes I am suggesting that
1) Draw Spells
2) Recursion Cards
3) Living Wish/Tabernacle
4) Swords to Plowshares
5) WAstelands
6) Some small level of recursable graveyard hate element(s).
7) Counterspells to protect my hand from therapy, counter flashback spells, and counter non-bazaar enabler spells.
8) ZORB!  Gotta love immortality.
are sufficient to deal with dredge.

all I'm saying is that only 6 matters, the rest is irrelevant. Zorb grants no immortality btw. also I have no clue what you are protecting...

I also like that they cannot attack into gorilla shaman or they will have the bridges pulled.  I also like how shaman pulls bridges with tabernacle.  I think using as few non-general cards as possible against dredge gives you good enough game against them that you feel comfortable playing the matchup and lets you have a much better sideboard.

You're talking about Living Wish, Tabernacle (ok I can see that one) and Zuran Orb, those haven't seen decent play in ages, all have become "horribly" outdated.... They'll attack into shaman with multiple Ghasts, Ichorids... they don't really "need" bridges y'know, as long as they have the yard.

Ultimately this matchup is about card advantage.  Dredges form of card advantage is to dump its library into it graveyard and use the cards in its graveyard as if they were in their hand.  By Slowing down the pace of this dumping, dredge does not gain card advantage early, and we will be gaining allot which we use to pick apart their deck piece by piece play by play with our insane level of card advantage.  Dredge is extremely slow without bazaar and usually musters up and aquamoeba and sacs it for cabaal, and puts out an ichorid or bloodghast which gets swords.  At that point I'm the non-interactive deck and playing and replaying every broken card in the book.

Okay, final attempt to reason here, there is so much you said that's contrary to what you first posted it's almost getting funny. Let me just get only the biggest "d'oh" out of the way as discussing everything is something I don't have the time for.

I thought you said you where a avid supporter of this:

Menendian School:
1) CA does not win and is but a means to an end.

So, lets go by your Logic here, what you're saying:

1) Cardadvantage matters (all of a sudden)

Ultimately this matchup is about card advantage.

2) Dredge generates card-advantage by dropping things in the yard.

Dredges form of card advantage is to dump its library into it graveyard and use the cards in its graveyard as if they were in their hand.

So with that in mind, I tell you, if card-advantage matters (as it's what this Matchup is ultimately about as you yourself said) and Dredge gains "insane" amounts of Card advantage by putting stuff in the yard (also something you agreed with) and I tell you the way to beat it, is to take away their card advantage (aka TAKE OUT THE GODDAMN GRAVEYARD) and you're suggesting you attack the enablers (Bazaar, Cabal) instead.

This seems illogical for me. You're never going to have enough Swords (4 Narc, 4 Ghast, 2-3 Ichorid) or have enough counters to stop their (4 Cabal, 2 Dread return) unless you assume you'll magically have all counters in your deck in your hand AND have the mana to use them along with 4x STP OR you're actively tutoring for counters which doesn't further your own plan for one bit, nor does it guarantee you don't lose.

The entire time I'm only arguing that you win against dredge if you take out their yard, I've been highly succesful battling dredge with The Deck on the back of Leyline of the Void, Helm of Obedience and Wasteland (yes Wasteland, but not in the way you're saying). My record vs Dredge when I stopped playing The Deck was 16-0 in games and 8-0 in matches. Having never ever lost to it when piloting my list. This might not be correct anymore, but I haven't played 5c Control in some time, nor have I tried to build it.

Also

Dredge is extremely slow without bazaar and usually musters up and aquamoeba and sacs it for cabaal

Seriously ?

You're not playing vs legacy dredge are you ? Because "Vintage" dredge looks like this:

4th Place: Willie Munch

3 Nature's Claim
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Ichorid
4 Bloodhgast
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Serum Powder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Darkblast
2 Petrified Field
2 City of Brass
2 Dread Return
3 Leyline of the Void
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Golgari Thug
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ancestral Recall

Sideboard:
2 Wispmare
2 City of Brass
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Pithing Needle
1 Nature's Claim
1 Ichorid
1 Darkblast
1 Leyline of the Void

[Ego_Sum]

Dredge is extremely slow without bazaar and usually musters up and aquamoeba and sacs it for cabaal

Seriously ?

You're not playing vs legacy dredge are you ? Because "Vintage" dredge looks like this:

I'm afraid he meant Narcomoeba (I know a bunch of peoplo who change this names....)

Greetings,

Iñalki.-

[limitedwhole]

Take out the yard with what really crappy cards? 
If I can beat dredge with 1 mediocre card main with full sideboard instead of a bastardied I can only hose dredge sideboard as my only deck change I will do that in a heartbeat over playing three TERRIBLE cards maindeck.  Leyline of Void...Helm =TERRIBLE.  Those cards are so bad it is unreal.

[Marske]

@limitedwhole,
Shall we just agree to disagree at this point as this is getting us nowhere and frankly, I'm running out of different ways to present my arguments without falling into repetition. I'm not suggesting people play anything for the record, I'm just stating (again) that people should attack the yard as it's the most effective way to deal with dredge.

Which cards you USE to attack the yard and if they should be in the maindeck is a discussion on itself... The Deck is more of a deckbuilding philosify then an actuall list. To build a list for the meta you're going to face at any given event, one must know which decks they will most likely encounter AND one must know what makes those decks tick.

@Ego_Sum,
I know what he meant...... but seeing his comments I also almost assumed we where talking Legacy Dredge (which does run Aquamoeba sometimes)

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Let me interject a few quick words here:

Leyline of the Void is actually not horrible. Attacking the graveyard from turn 0 is actually pretty useful considering how many decks make use of the graveyard. A quick list of examples:

Shop decks - Goblin Welder
Storm decks* - Yawgmoth's Will
Dredge - Bloodghast, Dread Return, and others
Fish - Tarmogoyf's p/t
Oath - Sun Titan, Gaea's Blessing
Other random cards: Krosan Reclamation, Ancient Grudge, Life from the Loam.

These aren't necessarily the most representative cards in the decks listed with respect to the graveyard, but the point is they all rely on the graveyard to some extent. Dredge relies on it more heavily than others, of course, but the others don't require it to win. Hate on the graveyard, however, limits all decks to a degree, which makes Leyline not entirely unreasonable to maindeck, and Helm then becomes a one-activation win condition. In other words, Leyline by itself is actually better than it appears. If you don't wish to run Leyline and want a card that does something in and of itself other than GY hate, I suggest Relic of Progenitus (cantrips at worst), Bojuka Bog (mana), or Yixid Jailer (can beat down).

Just my two Sarpadian coppers

Mindstab Thrull

* Yes, I know lots of decks run Yawgmoth's Will. Most decks can get by without it fine; Storm combo actually really wants to be able to Will, replay its Rituals, draw spells, and whatnot to win. In the case of The Deck, it's nice - really nice - but it's not necessary at all.

[limitedwhole]

Marske I agree with you that attacking the graveyard is a good if not the best strategy.  I would do it with Crypt/Twister if there is allot of stax and no MUD, and Dredge doesn't play white leyline.  However, if dredge is playing white leyline and there is allot of MUD, that is not a good plan.  Leyline+Helm has never been good.  Crypt/Twister is a superior graveyard attack strategy when coupled with wastelands.

That being said.  They have no removal for Tabernacle.  They never have mana to pay the upkeeps.  Shutting down a dredge deck is pretty easy with a Tabernacle.  I encourage you to actually try out the strategy.  you might be surprised at how effective Tabernacle is when it is placed into the right network of cards.

BTW, i am very interested in making a good The Deck list.  I tired of this its a metagame deck BS.  I want a stock list with different options highlighted depending upon metagame.  Anyone who wants to help build this thing feel free to chime in.  One of the reasons i am focusing on the dredge matchup is that it requires certain cards and those cards must be present.  Knowing exactly what our plays against dredge are sets some cards in stone.

Reuben any luck with your list?

[Marske]

Marske I agree with you that attacking the graveyard is a good if not the best strategy.  I would do it with Crypt/Twister if there is allot of stax and no MUD, and Dredge doesn't play white leyline.  However, if dredge is playing white leyline and there is allot of MUD, that is not a good plan.  Leyline+Helm has never been good.  Crypt/Twister is a superior graveyard attack strategy when coupled with wastelands.

Well Leyline obviously is only good in certain meta's. That being said, Twister + Crypt seems infinitely slow, although Twister is arguably one of my favorite pet cards...

That being said.  They have no removal for Tabernacle.  They never have mana to pay the upkeeps.  Shutting down a dredge deck is pretty easy with a Tabernacle.  I encourage you to actually try out the strategy.  you might be surprised at how effective Tabernacle is when it is placed into the right network of cards.

I have tried it, just like I've tried a million other combinations in my quest to beat dredge. What I found to be the most effective card is Leyline of the Void. What I'm currently more interested in is similar to your approach (Yixlid Jailer) in that you want to play cards that they can't interact with that hate them out. Biggest problem is, Dredge currently IS running mana. If they do manage to reanimate a big guy (Terastodon, Iona or God Forbid Realm Razer) they'll most likely be able to deal with you. Realm Razer in particular is kinda harsh on Tabernacle as a plan.

BTW, i am very interested in making a good The Deck list.  I tired of this its a metagame deck BS.  I want a stock list with different options highlighted depending upon metagame.  Anyone who wants to help build this thing feel free to chime in.  One of the reasons i am focusing on the dredge matchup is that it requires certain cards and those cards must be present.  Knowing exactly what our plays against dredge are sets some cards in stone.

This is the same mistake people made / are making years ago / today.  We could discuss the "auto-includes" which would boil down to the P9-LoA, FoW's and beyond that I think every deck you play (not only The Deck) should be looked at and build to solve the "meta" you expect at every single event. That being said, I'd love to discuss various The Deck builds I've tried...

All this is fine but first we should look at the biggest picture of all. Currently the meta game as I see it breaks down into this tier 1: Shops/Dredge/Gush.

Ideally we want some form of overlap between decks which makes our Global bullets (for the lack of a better term) that more effective. Like how Moat used to hose R/G beats, Goblins, WW, Sui (as long as they didn't have Hyppie), the biggest problem is that the cards needed to battle shop (Imho THE best strategy in the format) don't really overlap with the tools we need to beat Dredge OR Gush. I fear any 5c Control strategy will be spread to thin to actually work on all fronts and we'd end up with a deck that's probably capable of a 50/50 matchup across the field, which is not something I'd be comfortable with playing in an event.

[vassago]

....

Marske

limitedwhole

Marske

limitedwhole

......

This "conversation" was amusing to me. To be honest, I think there is an obvious troll here.

[limitedwhole]

No the mistake that the Deck players made was to play it as a metagame deck.  Hence PowderKegs and all kind of garbage.  ITS SO GOOD AGAINST SLIGH!  So is STP.

The deck wins with it sideboard, not by maindecking a pile which is good against 2 decks.

Solving the dredge puzzle is key as Dredge is too powerful to be ignored even if there are only 2-3 in a tournament of 24, but at the same time we do not want to bastardize the Deck to deal with it.  

Why is everything too slow?  I am taking games to turn 30.  WTF do I care about kill speed for?  I only care about interactive speed.  Crypt is great against dredge, twister is great against dredge.  It just so happens that twister puts crypt back in your deck use again and again.  I AM NOT TRYING TO WIN.  HAve you ever really played The Deck or did you convince yourself that a blue pile with some hosers in it was The Deck?  What do I give a crap about winning for?  All I do is not lose.  Winning takes care of itself.

[Marske]

@Vassago,
At least it's not the one that's on restricted posting .. this entire thread was very amusing for me as well... my only hope is some of my posting was relevant to people reading this thread...

@Limitedwhole,
I thought we settled our debate, now we're on this? I truly have lost my will to keep this going, if anybody wants to step in and see if they can have a civil discussion by all means.... I'm pretty sure I've played, created, tweaked a whole lot more then you have... which is beyond the point entirely but because you keep bringing it up I'll bite. You're ideas, while taken straight from the writings of Tan and Weissman are severly outdated. Building a "stock" list full of stuff like Keg (which was meant to deal with TONS of stuff) was the mistake people made, thinking they could build 5C control to beat "everything!" was a mistake people made... They lost touch of the core idea.

[limitedwhole]

"Winning takes care of itself."

If you don't believe in this principle you have no business posting to this thread moderator or not.
You proclaim yourself an expert on The Deck, but have done nothing but argue against The Deck's principles.

No one who draws Helm and thinks its good is an expert on The Deck.

[ReubenG]

I do think we have hashed through the Dredge topic quite a bit, and probably best to agree to disagree.  I would say there is no one perfect way to attack dredge, heck I even have considered Honor the Fallen as a wishable sideboard card for the dredge matchup.  I would also say a single line of attack will not work either; there must be multiple attacks on dredge.  You also have to consider the build of dredge and if they have the White Leyline or they may be a mana build with Fatestichers and even FOW.  Lastly, the way you attack Dredge also going to depend on how your deck is built and can it effectively sideboard in the cards you are planning for the matchup.

Now back to The Deck

Reuben any luck with your list?

I am still working with my build of The Deck.  Here is the list I am currently testing.  Yes I am running Helm main (and I also don't claim to be an expert on The Deck either), but as I stated in my review post, I wanted to test it.

Artifact:
1 Black Lotus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

Creature:
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Sundering Titan

Enchantment:
2 Leyline of the Void

Instant:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Brainstorm
1 Cunning Wish
1 Esper Charm
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorcery:
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Life from the Loam
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mind Twist
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Planeswalker:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ajani Vengeant

Land:
1 Cephalid Coliseum
3 City of Brass
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Trinisphere
1 Myr Battlesphere
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Nature's Claim
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Extirpate
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pyroblast
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Balance

Due to my last tournament, I needed to shore up against storm decks, and wanted to have a second tinker target for game 1 against decks that titan is bad (MUD, Dredge, Darktimes).  My solution was to put Obeyline in the main which strengthens the deck against dredge and darktimes, it also gave me the benefit of 3 extra sideboard slots to add a strong strategy against storm.

To accomplish this I removed from the main:
Balance
Lightning Bolt
Mindbreak Trap
Mana Drain
To add:
Helm of Obedience
2 Leyline of the Void
Red Elemental Blast

I also changed nature's claim to Esper Charm in the main because I wanted the nature’s in the sideboard because it is cheaper off a wish.  I feel I need enchantment removal main  for Fast Bond and Oath, but I wanted it to not be dead against other matchups, so I am testing esper charm. I may go to disenchant if the charm is a fail.

 I then reconfigured my sideboard with the open slots and streamlined it to have fast answers to wish for the Leyline of Sanctity and Trinisphere to make a strong game 2 & 3 for storm decks.

Also as I stated earlier in my last list, I am testing Ajani in the Sower slot.  I am also giving Cephalid Coliseum a try over the 4th City of Brass.

I am debating on going back to the 4 drain and keeping REB main, but I can’t decide on what to cut for it. (I am thinking about cutting 1 planeswalker or possibly a wasteland)

Storm Plan I am testing (though I don't know if I am over compensating for the matchup due to The Decks weakness to it and Dark Times)
-1 Helm of Obedience, -2 Leyline of the Void, -1 Cunning Wish, -1 Hurkyl's Recall
+4 Leyline of Sanctity, +1 Trinisphere
Other cards depending on type of storm deck I am facing.

These are some other sideboarding plans for the more difficult matchups I am working on, and all of these could have additional sided cards depending on the particular builds:

MUD Decks:
-1 Sundering Titan, -1 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Myr Battlesphere, +1 Nature's Claim

Dredge:
-1 Sundering Titan, -1 Cunning Wish, -1 Hurkyl's Recall, -1 Ajani Vengeant, -1 Ancient Grudge, -1 Mind Twist
+2 Leyline of the Void, +1 Extipate, +1 Balance, +1 Nature’s Claim, +1 Swords to Plowshares

[honestabe]

I've tested Esper Charm in other decks, and I've been quite happy with it

[Demonic Attorney]

When people are restating bald conclusions at one another, we've moved past the point where the conversation has any productive value.  Those of you who have done that in this thread, it's time to call it a day.  Please stop.

[ReubenG]

BTW, i am very interested in making a good The Deck list. I want a stock list with different options highlighted depending upon metagame.  Anyone who wants to help build this thing feel free to chime in. 

Since you initially posted this, I wanted to give my thought on a "stock" decklist, with options highlighted. (It is selfish as it helps me hash through each card choice I made).  Here is what I have gotten started with. 

If the mods feel this should be a seperate thread let me know.

The first choices with no options listed are what I feel make a good basis for The Deck (though the cards with an "*" after them I feel could be looked at for change if you wanted to take it in a different direction, I just have never done so).  I have sections with areas of card choice and deck customization that will allow for metagame choices and interaction with other cards.  I have listed some card choices but haven't yet added any strengths/weakness notes for metagaming so discuss as necessary.  Lastly, I certainly haven't covered everything and by no means am I an expert or claim to be (use at own risk).

The Deck shell:

Fast Mana (7):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Creature(1):
1 Gorilla Shaman*

Instant(13):
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
3 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor


Sorcery(7):
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mind Twist*
1 Regrowth*
1 Time Walk*
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Land(17):
4 Blue Fetchlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Additional Blue Dual Land (Dependant on card choices)
1 Island
3 City of Brass
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

Customizable Must Have Slots:
1 Tinker Bot (Typically Sundering Titan, but could be Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Darksteel Collosus, Inkwell Leviathon, Steel Hellkite, Myr Battlesphere)
1 Tinker Bot Removal (Hurkyl's Recall, Diabolic Edict, Balance, Swords to Plowshares)
1 Land Recursion (Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam)
2 Card Advantage (Fact or Fiction, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Thirst for Knowledge, Sylan Library, Ponder, Preordain)
1 Enchanment Removal (Disenchant, Nature’s Claim, Esper Charm)
1 Land of your choice to support your focus of the deck (Wasteland, City of Brass, Island, 5th Blue Dual Land)

Other Highly Recommended Slots:
1 Permanent Removal (Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives)
1 Creature Control (Sower of Tempation, Ajani Vengeant, Balance, Wrath Effect)
1 Additional Artifact Mana (Typically 1 Mana Crypt, but could be Lotus Petal, Mox Opal, Chrome Mox, or another land depending on need or your build)
1 Additional Spell Disruption (Red Elemental Blast, Mana Drain, Spell Pierce, Misdirection, Stifle)

4 Open Slots Main for Metagame Customization
Note: due to the need for this deck to answer threats, Cunning Wish is a top choice for one of the slots to allow for more instant answers in the sideboard.  If this is chosen only 3 slots remain.

These last three open slots are where we all spice up our decks for the metagame we expect to face that hasn't been addressed with the above areas of customization.  I have posted my current test list above which indicate the choices I have made, and reasons for going that direction.

[Marske]

So, for the sake of argument and discussion I'll chime in and share most of the stuff I've done way back with the list and why. Mind you, I don't think anything should be really "set in stone" here.

Let me walk you guys through the list as I played it back then, explain why I ran what I ran and present you with the entire decklist and some sideboarding stuff.

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

Lotus and the 5 moxen need not be explained I reckon.

1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

No Mana Vault, this deck does some damage to itself already and Mana Vault just never seems to fit into "Control" strategies, fact that it doesn't untap normally is a big downside, Mana Crypt is barely good enough (the dmg is a real pain in the @ss) but at least it untaps itself.

1 Library Of Alexandria

It's "Library of I Win", it's a land that I've grown fond of even in a shop meta, it gives you a very steady stream of cards and gets even nuttier when combined with Jace. I've tutored for it to break the "mirror" and I think it definitely deserves a spot.

1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

I like to keep the deck running on 4 "Strip" effects, some run the 4th Wasteland but I don't think it's needed, it also messes up the mana by being another uncolored source. A very strong aspect of The Deck and one people seem to fail to grasp is that it's a Mana Denial deck combined with a Control deck. We cannot be expected to counter everything (which is impossible anyway) nor can we be expected to have counters at all the right times but, denying the opponent mana to resolve their spells negates the fact that you don't run that many counters in the first place.

4 "Fetch"

4 Fetch lands are enough, you can split them up if you like, as long as it's a Fetch that grabs an Island you'll be fine since every land you can grab is an island / X.

3 City of Brass

It fixes mana, although it's a wasteable target and does damage, I've not yet been dissapointed with having 3 and I'm fairly sure I'll never want to go up to 4.

2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra

Beyond Blue (which has a whopping 21 cards) Black (6 with 2 of them needing BB) and Red (2) are the seconday and tertiary colors. But, Red only has 2 cards you say!? It has another 4 in the sideboard which might as well be maindeck with Cunning Wish (making black have 8 counting Edict and Extirpate). This makes me want 2 sea's and 2 Volcanic's to ensure we don't have to rely to heavily on the Cities to get all the colors we need. The Tropical and Tundra are there because Green (Regrowth, Flashback Grudge) is something I want to be able to get when I need it without again relying on Cities to provide it.

The Tundra currently only supports the SB Swords to Plowshares, I had Balance in there for a long time, but I'm not sure if It's good enough currently. Having a Tundra isn't a bad thing though, and it makes it easy to again support stuff like Seal of Cleansing, Balance, STP, Sacred Ground, Disenchant or whatever.

1 Island
1 Snowcovered Island

2 Basics, preferably basics that give you U mana. 1 Island and 1 Snowcoverd, cause the snowcovered is just as good as the "normal" basic but has the added benefit of being able to fit in a Gifts pile with the "island" which, might not be relevant but it doesn't hurt either.

1 Crucible of Worlds

Crucible is argualy better then life from the loam (you don't want to be dredging answers or god forbid, counters) I've tinkered it when I have Stripmine in play / yard, it's solid against land destruction (ensureing you get your lands back) or when somebody wastes your Library. With Shops gaining ground It's only going to be better.

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder

The restricted U spells, I don't think I have to explain why these deserve slots, all are amazing and I cannot imagine not playing them in this list.

1 Fact Or Fiction

Fact or Fiction, It has surprised me greatly whilst playing this deck, I've tutored for it to get back into a game or to gain such a huge advantage that the game ended upon resolution. It remains amazing for me against mostly everything.

1 Time Walk

It's a cantrip, but so much more, Time Walk needs hardly any explanation as just about every deck want's to take an extra turn, another land drop, another Attack step, another Jace activation.

4 Force Of Will

Needs no explanation.

3 Mana Drain

Yes, Mana Drain, not Spell pierce, I'll try to explain why, this deck wants to drag things into the late game (by denying the opponent mana early on) the more you get into the late game the worse Spell Pierce becomes. Not to mention Mana Drain fuels stuff like Stroke, Twist pretty well as adding help to casting the more expensive stuff faster.

1 Mind Twist

It's great against just about any deck, as destroying somebody's hand is still pretty devastating, it does require some setup and some timing, but it's effects are always amazing.

1 Ancient Grudge

Mana denial (kill those Solomoxen!!) and a catch all answer against Drain decks running Time Vault, Painter or what not. I also hear it's pretty decent when facing shops or when your opponent insists on having a Null Rod in play.

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

This group of tutor's is almost always an autoinclude in just about any deck I play if possible. They help you getting to your "silver bullet" answers, your missing combo piece or protection.

1 Cunning Wish

Cunning Wish might be "clunky" for some, but it adds a whole layer to the stuff that's going on, you can run answers in your board which aren't good enough maindeck but might have situations coming up pre-board which you want to deal with. I think I've wished just about any target I have in my SB currently with the exception of Annul. It really adds a great "toolbox" feel to what you're doing.

1 Gifts Ungiven

It's still one of the most broken tutors in the game and it's blue to boot, I've gifted for a lot of different stuff (Regrowth, DT, Ancestral, Vampiric with Leyline in play for example) and I really love all the options this gives you.

1 Tinker

It gets Helm, It gets Titan, It gets Crucible.... enough said I guess ?

1 Regrowth

Regrowth is the only real reason I run tropical at the moment (beyond flashback grudge) and I can't think of a better reason to do so, it's amazing in what it does, which is much more then just grabbing back Ancestral (which is pretty devastating in it's own right)

1 Yawgmoth's Will

The Most Broken Spell In Magic History, I've yet to lose when I resolve this in ANY deck I play it in, similar to The Deck which has let me win out of nowhere when my opponent let it resolve with just Ancestral, Mystical and some other stuff (including a Jace)

1 Time Twister

Twister is a huge tempo swing when you get to play it early, it's ever bigger when you get to Strip / Waste a land then Twister them into a fresh 7 and Kill their moxen with Monkey. It's also pretty ok late game with Leyline (or without even) to get back to a fresh 7 or to just start decking them by Regrowth, Twister, Mind Twist, Regrowth, Twister etc (with leyline obviously, yes this has come up against dredge one game.)

1 Gorilla Shaman

What to say about this little fella, fondly called "Mox Monkey" It's part of your mana denial and it doubles as removal for Null Rod, Time Vault and it beats for 1 making it a relevant Kill Condition some times as well (albeit a bit slowish )

1 Sower Of Temptation

I hear 2 for 1's are pretty ok, this 2 for 1 even lets you beat twice as much face

1 Sundering Titan

Mana Denail strapped to a pretty beefy ass, It's a great Tinker target against just about any deck and against the deck it's not you can tinker - Helm or after boarding Tinker - Sphinx.

1 Helm of Obedience

It's a combo finish or it gives you a creature or messes with Topdeck tutors, it's a bit expensive going on at least 5 mana but still effective at what it does.

2 Leyline of the Void

Most of the decks revolve around the graveyard (Yawgmoth's Will and / or Crucible of Worlds, Bazaar of Baghdad) having a maindeck turn 0 solution which can also be hardcast AND doubles as a combo piece is very very good and right in line with what this deck wants.

1 Jace, The Mindsculptor

It's a Swiss Army knife wrapped in a blue cloak which can also kill an opponent, how can you not love this guy? As you might have realized by now I've fallen in love with this card, I might be biased but I've yet to lose a game where Jace resolved. I've used all of his abilities including his ultimate and he's always been relevant.

Ok, so that covers all of the maindeck choices, lets move on to the SB shall we:

3 Annul
1 Ancient Grudge

Mana Drain (and with it Spell Pierce) are awful against Modern Stax,let alone vs Workshop Aggro. Spell Pierce might stop the mana sources (unless those are lands) for the first Golem, but when they have Shop, Mox, City / Tomb you're gone. Annul stops everything regardless. Game 2 I like to board out Mana Drain and bring in Annul leaving me with the same amount of disruption. Ancient Grudge is just amazing and a nice wish target in other matchups as well.

2 Leyline Of The Void

Beyond upping the "combo piece" count it's also the best disruption you have against Dredge.

1 MindBreak Trap

Storm, Control Mirrors you name it, this just acts like a Counter most of the time.

1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

For the matches where Titan or Leyline / Helm aren't good enough.

1 Fire / Ice

To get rid of nast x/2 dorks or 2 x/1 dorks or to tap opposing mana (mostly blue) I've even finished off unsuspecting opponents on 4-5 live going Fire, Regrowth, Fire, Attack with Mox Monkey.

1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

Extra counters against Storm, the mirror

1 Diabolic Edict
1 Swords to Plowshares

Edict takes care of Inkwell, Progenitus, Iona (naming white) and STP takes care of the rest.

1 Extirpate

Ichorid hate piece #5 (or 9 if you count the wastes) it's also a great wish target in other matches (extirpate Dark Ritual vs Combo, Force or something nasty in the mirror)

1 Stroke of Genius

Card draw that can also kill an unsuspecting Ichorid player or Oath player after they Oath their entire deck (Iona Oath) just respond to the K-Rec / Blessing Trigger

Some small notes on playing this deck

Most of you will have experience with other incarnations of The Deck from days long past for those who don't: this deck primarily works as a mana denial / silver bullet deck, you don't want to (or are able to) counter everything, paying close attention to what mana sources you get rid of, what your opponent is playing and what your goals are, is going to be a highly crucial skill to playing this succesly.

Don't forget that Gorilla Shaman doesn't need to tap to destroy something (it can just do damage) pecking away at the opponents life total. Beware of how amazingly devasting some plays are, even a Mind Twist for 3-4 against a full grip of 7 (since it's random discard) can be pretty cripling, even more so if they fight and lose a counter war before it. It takes some setup and "skill" to get your opponent to "walk" into this but it's not uncommon. Some classic examples include draining something in your first main phase then with the drain mana twisting them. Or getting them to Force something then resolve Mind Twist.

With most of the good blue draw restricted and the mana denial deployed by The Deck most Vintage decks can't recover fast enough after a mid sized Mind Twist for you to lose control or finish it.

On Sideboarding

Keep in mind that you'll want at least 18 and preferably 19-20 blue cards even after boarding, also, if you're bringing in to many instants you can board C-Wish out as well making it less dead. I'll give you guys my former boarding strategies:

Dredge

-1 Mind Twist
-1 Sundering Titan

+2 Leyline

I don't board in Extirpate to keep it available in the SB for Wishing, which with Regrowth in the deck makes you able to C-Wish, Extirpate, Regrowth, Extirpate (also has come up) another thing to be mindfull of is the amount of cards the dredge player has left, as mentioned before, stroking them to death is a perfectly viable option, as is Fire on you're Shaman to get rid of Bridges. It takes some skill to beat dredge with so little hate, but I'm currently up 6-0 vs Dredge so go figure. having Leyline, Strip/Waste, Extirpate along with a combo finish makes it a very doable matchup.

Shops

-3 Mana Drain
-1 Sundering Titan
-1 Gifts

+3 Annul
+1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
+1 Ancient Grudge

Possible depending on strategy:

- Regrowth
- C-Wish

+ 2 Leyline of the Void

Like stated before, Mana Drain isn't as good as Annul against shops, Grudge and Sphinx are a lot better then Titan and Gifts. I'm not running bounce with a reason, most Stax decks don't run Welder anymore, so destroying artifacts is arguably better (unless you're a dedicated combo deck) then just bouncing them. This could mean stuff like Serenity can find a home in the board as a global sweeper. Since we don't want "one single turn to win" we need multiples, which means getting rid of artifacts is better then just putting them in hand and see them return after you've passed the turn to be stuck again. Possibly running something crazy like Energy Flux, Kataki might even be good but I haven't tested that yet. I can write up my boarding plans against most matchups if you guys like or if you have a request for a particular matchup.

Conclusion and Final decklist:

This deck has been wicked fun to play and I've been on a real streak piloting it. I think it's not the best positioned deck to be playing at this time (Pretty sure Gush decks beat it reliably) but if you're looking for something extremely fun and old school it might be worth picking it up.

It takes some time getting used to how this deck works if you haven't ever played older builds but it sure is a blast to figure stuff out.

Final Decklist

RND - The Deck
As suggested by M. van Zundert

Maindeck:

Mana Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Non-Mana Artifact
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Helm of Obedience

Planeswalkers
1 Jace, The Mindsculptor

Enchantments
2  Leyline of the Void

Creatures
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Sower Of Temptation
1 Sundering Titan

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Brainstorm
1 Cunning Wish
1 Fact Or Fiction
4 Force Of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
3 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mind Twist
1 Ponder
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Twister

Lands
1 Library Of Alexandria
4 Misty Rainforest
3 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Island
1 Snowcovered Island
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Annul
2 Leyline Of The Void
1 MindBreak Trap
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Fire / Ice
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Extirpate
1 Stroke of Genius

[ReubenG]

Dredge

-1 Mind Twist
-1 Sundering Titan

+2 Leyline

I don't board in Extirpate to keep it available in the SB for Wishing, which with Regrowth in the deck makes you able to C-Wish, Extirpate, Regrowth, Extirpate (also has come up) another thing to be mindfull of is the amount of cards the dredge player has left, as mentioned before, stroking them to death is a perfectly viable option, as is Fire on you're Shaman to get rid of Bridges. It takes some skill to beat dredge with so little hate, but I'm currently up 6-0 vs Dredge so go figure. having Leyline, Strip/Waste, Extirpate along with a combo finish makes it a very doable matchup.

I am trying to understand why you wouldn't side in Extirpate to have it available for more tutors main deck rather than rely on just cunning wish to get it.  Could you expound on your reasoning for this.

Shops

-3 Mana Drain
-1 Sundering Titan
-1 Gifts

+3 Annul
+1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
+1 Ancient Grudge

Possible depending on strategy:

- Regrowth
- C-Wish

+ 2 Leyline of the Void

Like stated before, Mana Drain isn't as good as Annul against shops, Grudge and Sphinx are a lot better then Titan and Gifts. I'm not running bounce with a reason, most Stax decks don't run Welder anymore, so destroying artifacts is arguably better (unless you're a dedicated combo deck) then just bouncing them. This could mean stuff like Serenity can find a home in the board as a global sweeper. Since we don't want "one single turn to win" we need multiples, which means getting rid of artifacts is better then just putting them in hand and see them return after you've passed the turn to be stuck again. Possibly running something crazy like Energy Flux, Kataki might even be good but I haven't tested that yet.

I have actually liked mana drain for the shop matchup as draining their large CC artifacts pay big dividens the following turn once you handled the shop and sphere (I have hurklys main which hleps).  I haven't tested taking Drains out for Annuls, but the 3 slots in the sideboard seems like a lot and might be better with your suggestiong of Serenity and have 2 slots for other matchups.

I can write up my boarding plans against most matchups if you guys like or if you have a request for a particular matchup.

What were you boarding for ANT, TPS,  and BobTendrils?

Conclusion and Final decklist:

This deck has been wicked fun to play and I've been on a real streak piloting it. I think it's not the best positioned deck to be playing at this time (Pretty sure Gush decks beat it reliably) but if you're looking for something extremely fun and old school it might be worth picking it up.

It takes some time getting used to how this deck works if you haven't ever played older builds but it sure is a blast to figure stuff out.

I have been testing Gush and it hasn't been terrible.  My testing has been 2 fisting matches, and I may not be playing Gush right, but it has been more like 50%.  I have been looking at this matchup to see if there is a way to improve the matchup after sideboarding.  Not being an expert with Gush (GAT or Storm), I am not certian on how to attack it other than the keeping fastbond off the table or agressively attacking the islands and baiting the gush into a drain with backup.  

Sideboarding tips would be helpful with Gush variants (GAT and Storm) or thoughts on playing that matchup.

[Marske]

Dredge
....

I am trying to understand why you wouldn't side in Extirpate to have it available for more tutors main deck rather than rely on just cunning wish to get it.  Could you expound on your reasoning for this.

It's completely possible to side in Extirpate, I just prefered to keep it in the board to make C-Wish a bit stronger. I like having C-Wish in that matchup regardless and I didn't always grab Extirpate. That being said, when I was thinking about bringing in Extirpate I couldn't settle on which card (beyond C-Wish) was "worse" (What to board out for it) so I settled on having Extirpate stay in the board and have the ability to C-Wish it or grab something else that made me win faster (Stroke or something similar)

Shops
.....

I have actually liked mana drain for the shop matchup as draining their large CC artifacts pay big dividens the following turn once you handled the shop and sphere (I have hurklys main which hleps).  I haven't tested taking Drains out for Annuls, but the 3 slots in the sideboard seems like a lot and might be better with your suggestiong of Serenity and have 2 slots for other matchups.

Mana Drain sure isn't bad by any means, keep in mind this was another time and shop decks looked different now then they did then. Having stuff that destroys over having stuff that bounces (hurks, rebuild) is way better though. If I where to tune the list to beat today's shop decks I would at least go heavier on the Grudge / Serenity route, maybe even include Razormane (Tinker target) or more crucibles.

I can write up my boarding plans against most matchups if you guys like or if you have a request for a particular matchup.

What were you boarding for ANT, TPS,  and BobTendrils?

VS TPS, ANT:
- 1 Cunning Wish, -1 Grudge, -1 Sower, -1 Shaman, - Twister
 +1 MindBreak Trap, +1 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Pyroblast, +1 Extirpate, + 1 Leyline

Vs Bob tendrils:
- Twister
+ 1 Fire / Ice

Or something along those lines. Mind Twist is extremely strong vs non-confidant fueled combo along with tight technical play, it's by no means a "good" matchup and it takes tremendous skill to navigate it properly.

Conclusion and Final decklist:
...

I have been testing Gush and it hasn't been terrible.  My testing has been 2 fisting matches, and I may not be playing Gush right, but it has been more like 50%.  I have been looking at this matchup to see if there is a way to improve the matchup after sideboarding.  Not being an expert with Gush (GAT or Storm), I am not certian on how to attack it other than the keeping fastbond off the table or agressively attacking the islands and baiting the gush into a drain with backup. 

Sideboarding tips would be helpful with Gush variants (GAT and Storm) or thoughts on playing that matchup.

It's hard to answer this, keep in mind that the info I posted was from May 2009, things have changed. I would rebuild the entire deck differently to deal with Gush / Storm decks we see today.

[limitedwhole]

You never want to cast force of will on principle.  If Bob is heavily played then you need 2 swords, 1 cunning wish, and 1 balance.  Or comparable.  

Swords gives you spot removal for the BOB at one mana which is pretty important and useful against shop.  Wish gives you an alternate way to get rid of a bob and you can even use a card like darkblast of lavadart out of the board or similar.  Balance gives you the means to allow a bob to resolve and then balance away the bob and the card advantage later.

We want to surround our opponents key plays.

Against Workshop based decks I still think the best strategy is to ignore the spheres and use them to trap the workshop player, but then again I play max shamans and max wastelands.

i am not sure you are correct about the blue restricted cards like ponder and brainstorm.  They do not actually increase the likeleyhood of having and answer against Bob or oath or similar, if you are taking out answers to put them in.  They reduce the odds that you have an answer.  They are rather bad against workshop although brainstorm is passable.  They do help you find wasteland however.

You really do want to play Skeletal Scrying: AKA YAWGMOTH's WILL AT INSTANT SPEED.  Play all the baubles out of my graveyard.