[SCD] Grim Tutor

[Shax]

So as everyone trys out their perfect Gush deck to demolish the metagame. The card that comes to mind for me is Grim Tutor. If Gush decks are pushing the bounds on their mana ramping anyways, a three mana worse than demonic tutor unrestricted surely has to be good? or if not better than the alternative Imperial Seal. Seal cost 1, Grim Tutor cost 3. Grim requires double black. Seal is card disadvantage. Grim cost life and is unrestricted. Seal is restricted for good reason. The problem here in that they are both sorcery's. Sorcery's aren't relevant unless they are bombs in Vintage. But for a Gush/Dark Ritual deck to abuse the tutors we'd have to see the value in the card without card disadvantage. Does Grim Tutor have a ridiculously steep cost to be played in a matchup against MUD? Hell yes. Against other Blue/Black? Not too bad. I'm guessing that Grim Tutor would be best abused in a Dark Ritual Tendrils, but Gush sure does look good too. Finding a fastbond the turn you really need it is the most speed you can get, comparitivley to your Demonic Tutor. Unlike Seal, which means your having to do some tricks or Y.Win to get to the top card a bit faster.

 So the question I ask, is do you think a deck packing multiple Grim Tutors would work in todays meta? It seems like it'd work well with Gush Vault, sense if you cast it to find a piece of your combo you get it then, and can use it all with the Drain mana. Maybe a decklist or two would'nt hurt. But I'm tired of having to play good restricted blue draw cards, in the place of something that just finds my win conditions sorcery speed.

[ELD]

Sorcery's aren't relevant unless they are bombs in Vintage.

Ponder and Preordain totally disprove this statement.  Duress does as well.  Duress effects highlight why tutoring at such a high cost isn't as good as bulk card advantage in a Gush deck.  If a player draws some cards with Gush and passes, getting duressed isn't a big deal.  If you Grim Tutor and pass, the tempo loss is, well, there is literally no way someone could create a graph in Microsoft Office to illustrate the volume of tempo loss.  Even if they could, there would definitely be no way to show how much of a beating it is to lose 3 life for no reason in a deck that trades life for cards whenever possible. 

[Razvan]

Sorcery's aren't relevant unless they are bombs in Vintage.

Honestly, I wonder how much innovation we have missed historically because too many people believe such statements?

This isn't as bad as... for 3 mana, i want something that wins the game not "does something else". But it's pretty bad, as ELD says.

Grim Tutor is a fine card, the cost isn't too relevant in a lot of situations, especially because you can often guarantee you have another turn against Workshop beforehand.

[hitman]

Grim Tutor requires your deck be built around the card with robust mana, usually Ritual mana.  I play 4 Dark Ritual and 3 Cabal Ritual in my Tendrils deck and would still only ever play one.  I don't see why it would be good in Gush decks.  You can generate a lot of mana with a card like High Tide but it's blue.  BB1 is very strenuous on a light manabase like Gush decks have. 

[Shax]

Well, Duress and Preordain are tempo related cards.. They are one mana cantrips/disruption that get the job done . I was more specifically talking about shit like Timeitwist, er/Merchant Scroll/Tinker of the sorts. Imperial Seal is a tutor and Grim Tutor is a tutor. But those two are the ones I'm trying to compare, but they should be treated like bombs right? Grabbing a Force or Recall with a tutor is nearly almost as good as having it in your hand.

[Rico Suave]

Grabbing a Force or Recall with a tutor is nearly almost as good as having it in your hand.

It's really not.  For every effect there is a cost.  The effect may be strong, but it is balanced by the cost to put the card into play.  Time Stretch is a great example of a card that has a powerful effect, but the cost is too great and as a result it will never see competitive play.  Time Walk is a much better card even though its effect is half as good as Time Stretch - but its cost makes it one of the most broken cards to ever see the light of day.

Ancestral Recall and Grim Tutor -> Ancestral Recall both have the same effect of drawing 3 cards which is a solid effect.  The difference is that the first one costs 1 while the second costs 4.  Spending 4 mana to draw 3 cards is not a good cost:effect ratio, which is evidenced by how Concentrate is unplayable. 

[meadbert]

One issue to consider regarding using Gushbond with Grim Tutor is the life loss.

[Shax]

Ok, the point you made on Grim Tutor into Ancestral Recall for 4 mana is legitimate. But, what about Grim Tutor into....Gush? Then thats 3 mana, for 2 cards. Basically..a plus one, that also finds a instant that can protects your lands from wasteland, and with Fastbond out, it guides you to your victory.  Having more Grim Tutor means more Gush/Fastbond/ ANY CARD IN YOUR LIBRARY. I'm thinking it could be atleast a one or two of, or like someone said I'm sure a list focusing on the finer points of Grim Tutor/Tendrils is a option, since Grim Tutor gives you options is my logic.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

  -3 life to draw three cards. I'd rather play concentrate ...
... which I wouldn't play

[Tha Gunslinga]

Grim Tutor for Gush seems horrifyingly bad.  I mean, it's slower than Merchant Scroll, doesn't generate mana, doesn't pitch to Force, loses 3 life.  With any Sphere out it costs 5 mana and 2 lands to draw 2 cards.  Wow does that suck.

[TheBrassMan]

The Concentrate analogy isn't entirely fair.  Demonic Tutor for Yawgmoth's Will and Merchant Scroll for Mystical Tutor for Tinker don't exactly stack up to thrilling cost:effect ratios - but these plays happen all the time, and win games.  Concentrate can only ever be a Concentrate, but a Grim Tutor is the best possible play you can make in your deck with 1BB/3 life tacked onto the cost.  Sometimes this is a bad Concentrate, but only when Concentrate is what you want to cast.  Grim Tutor is really only one mana too expensive  to play, rather than the three mana we seem to be implying.  Of course, I agree with the most posters here that it's still likely too expensive to play, which is the important point.

This probably goes without saying, but the more ritual effects your deck runs, the more valuable GT becomes, from the the "Rit, Rit, Tutor" kill if nothing else.

To address a more specific point from the OP, it's mentioned that Imp Seal requires "specific tricks" to use the card right away, particularly in regards to getting Fastbond.  It's worth mentioning that while this is technically true, specific tricks aren't exactly hard to come by.  It's not difficult at all to Imp Seal for a Fastbond on turn two, then Gush into it and cast it with the mana floating.  If you don't have a Gush, getting Fastbond wouldn't have made too much sense to begin with. 

Well, Duress and Preordain are tempo related cards.. They are one mana cantrips/disruption that get the job done.

As a side note I'm kind of bothered by this line of thinking.  "Tempo" in this context is a nonsense word, it doesn't really mean anything, or add anything to the discussion, it just serves to derail your thinking.  Most definitions of tempo involve generating some kind of mana advantage over your opponent, and both Duress and Ponder put you in a mana deficit.  In order for a statement like this to make sense, you really need to be more explicit about what these cards are doing that's tempo related, and why doing that is a desirable thing.

[Shax]

Sure I'll take a toke Brassman. Well in the context of Tempo related cards. You pay 1 for an effect. The effect in this case is looking at your opponents hand and taking something of the most value in the gamestate at the time. Preordain? Well it can be a tempo related card, too. Your seeing the top two cards, plus a third if you choose. Those cards can range anywhere from Force of Will.. to more draw, to some bomb. The tempo? Well in the decks I usually play Preordain, the tempo is gained because of my Storm mechanic. Or hell, you can even say it's a tempo card in GAT because your growing Dryads, etc. Mainpoint is, the philosophy on magic versus playing the gamestate is two different things. Thats why I asked about Grim Tutor. It isn't scary by itself, or is it? Your reading the gamestate when you make the descision.