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Author Topic: The Wheel 5.2  (Read 18966 times)
credmond
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« Reply #60 on: April 12, 2012, 10:46:30 pm »

Muddle the Mixture seems like decent tech to me. Being able to find Balance against all the aggro decks in the meta right now seems awesome.

I would squeeze an extra dredge card in your sideboard unless the dredge players are pretty weak in your area. Yixlid Jailer perhaps?

Only playtesting can tell if the deck has the right amount of moxes vs lands. You can't assume that it will just be better with a complete suite of moxes.

I think at least 1 mana drain deserves a main deck slot since your deck has a lot of potential to gain serious tempo off it. Not sure what you would swap it with. What in your experience are the weakest cards in your deck right now?
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #61 on: April 14, 2012, 10:54:19 am »

I don't quite get the comments about bob #3 not being added.  If you think bob flips will kill you, then don't run ANY and pick a different draw engine.  If you realize bobs are good and thus run 2, then running 3 will increase your odds of a turn 1/2 bob 33%, which is when he's best.  That's like saying "Ancestral recalls are good, but I might deck myself sometimes, so I'll only play 1 (if you could run 4)".  If something is good, use it or don't use it, but don't "splash it" with just 2.  Not running 4 is warranted, as you might just draw more bobs of of bobs (but I'd really consider even 4 since you have mostly low cost cards).

Pearl is definitely worth it.  Chalice and null rod don't become significantly better because of ONE extra mox.  But your turn 1 abilities, and the aforementioned Tinker, yawg will, balance, twist DO get significantly better turn 1 - as well as bob + top.  This is Vintage after all...to suggest something is "broken enough" so you are okay with nerfing it a little since it's still good is really unacceptable.  The bonus of 1 mox FAR outweighs the times it will bite you.  Turn 1 chalice @ 0 while you hold the mox pearl sucks, but isn't back breaking.  Turn 1 two land + confidant, while your opponent plays sapphire/island on turn 2 to drain your bob and then dump into jace? Yeah...much worse.  Had you the pearl instead of tundra there, you land bob and probably win that game.

Overall, your deck is solid...but i think the 1 on color mox and a 3rd bob are huge.  You say you don't have a lot of colorless eaters? Bobs, top, balance, yawg will, mind twist, sol ring, key, vault, tezz, hurks, fof, walk, tinker, control magic, scroll, most of your SB....I actually see MORE colorless using cards than not in your list.
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« Reply #62 on: April 20, 2012, 06:20:27 am »

Muddle the Mixture seems like decent tech to me. Being able to find Balance against all the aggro decks in the meta right now seems awesome.
Tis true.
Balance can and does recover games.


I would squeeze an extra dredge card in your sideboard unless the dredge players are pretty weak in your area. Yixlid Jailer perhaps?
Dredge is strong, and is played.
There were four of them at the GP.
Yixlid does seem to fit best. Stops some other odd stuff too.


Only playtesting can tell if the deck has the right amount of moxes vs lands. You can't assume that it will just be better with a complete suite of moxes.
I have done the playtesting.
This seems to be the most stable, and reliable.
For me anyway. The pearl is really close though.

I think at least 1 mana drain deserves a main deck slot since your deck has a lot of potential to gain serious tempo off it. Not sure what you would swap it with. What in your experience are the weakest cards in your deck right now?
The mana drain in the board was in the main, and I used to want to play more, but they just get stuck in my hand sometimes. Double blue is really hard to guarantee on turn 2, and that is the critical turn it seems. Well, after turn one anyway. The dream draw of double Blue turn one is just a fantasy really.

What in your experience are the weakest cards in your deck right now?
hmmmm.
Some of the narrower cards come to mind, but then there are the games where they kick and just outright win them. Mind Twist is like that. And when I am winning the Balance looks like a complete seat belt, but, then there are the games when the other side has a swarm of creatures and it just wins the game.

cut from earlier.... maybe some of that lot....
...Mind Twist, Muddle, a wasteland, Yawgies, a Dark C, a preordain, 2xSpell pierce, Hurkyls, Control M, Fact-o-F & Mystical tutor are 12 good places to start thinking....
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magic geek
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« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2012, 06:28:58 am »

I don't quite get the comments about bob #3 not being added.  If you think bob flips will kill you, then don't run ANY and pick a different draw engine.  If you realize bobs are good and thus run 2, then running 3 will increase your odds of a turn 1/2 bob 33%, which is when he's best.  That's like saying "Ancestral recalls are good, but I might deck myself sometimes, so I'll only play 1 (if you could run 4)".  If something is good, use it or don't use it, but don't "splash it" with just 2.  Not running 4 is warranted, as you might just draw more bobs of of bobs (but I'd really consider even 4 since you have mostly low cost cards).

Bob Flips will sometimes kill me.
This is just the truth. If you have played Bob, you know this.
Getting a turn one Bob is lovely. Obviously this is the best time to cast one. But do i want to cast another on turn 2? And a third on turn 3?
Not really, no. I won prefer to win instead.

Bob IS strong. But he also has some fundamental weaknesses. Creature kill for instance is an embarrassing way to not draw cards.

Comparing Bob to Ancestral is really just not understanding.
When I have Inifinite turns, Ancestral Recall is not going to kill me.
Having a Bob in play can.
When I cast Ancestral, I draw cards. When I cast Bob, I might draw cards, provided you dont have a lightning bolt. Lightning bolt does not stop an Ancestral.

Ancestral is OBVIOUSLY stronger, but by your reasoning, I should not play it because I am only "splashing one."
The same is true for Lotus and Sol Ring and lots of other stuff.
The strongest card in this type of deck is the FIRST one.
The first enormous/Invisible/Unkillable robot is the best, sure a second is lovely, but the first IS the best. Since this deck is about only playing the best, the fact I play a second Bob really is a statement about the power of the guy. BUT, I really do not want two of him in play. well, sometimes. And sometimes I look at him and want him to be a Blue card. And sometimes I wonder where my Black Mana went. Or wonder why they are playing creature kill in their base deck.

"If something is good, use it or don't use it"
Smile Funny !
Why can't I use it the right amount?


Pearl is definitely worth it.
When you have a working version of this deck I will be more inclined to believe you.
Pearl is certainly close. BUT, it only helps cast ONE spell in the base deck with its coloured mana. Getting manascrewed or colourscrewed is a reality for ALL magic decks. That one card not tapping for Blue when it could, irritates me. Because of all the single Blue cantrips, all I need is One Blue Mana a lot of the time. And being this deck, it will generally win if it can get its shit together. Tiny little improvements in stability is what I am striving for, not outrageous first turns. Those will happen if I have the Pearl or not. Pearl improves sprint, but not distance. And when they have outrageous first turns, maybe I can spell pierce, because Tundra taps for Blue. 
This deck does not Mulligan anywhere near as often as any other Type 1 decks.
And sure, replace a wasteland with a pearl, it will goldfish better in practice, no doubt.
Wasteland wrecks opponents, and can win games.
Or, ...Perhaps you have some other suggestion on what to remove to include the Pearl?
That is the rub.

Figuring out how to sideboard is even harder than playing this beast.


Chalice and null rod don't become significantly better because of ONE extra mox.  But your turn 1 abilities, and the aforementioned Tinker, yawg will, balance, twist DO get significantly better turn 1 - as well as bob + top.
Pfweeeeeet!
Ref!

How come you get to use and draw the pearl on your turn one, but I do not get to play a turn 1 Chalice or Null Rod?

Fair is fair.
In your "I got a Pearl turn 1" example, sure, it is all roses.
And in my counter example "YOU got a Pearl turn 1" and it was WORTHLESS.
Chalice and Null rod DO become significantly better because of the ONE extra MOX they stop in THIS game, the theoretical one you have not played, and the actual ones I have played.
I have looked at the perfect turn 1 infinity turn hand, and conceeded before drawing a card because I only had artifacts, and he went first with a Nether Void.
Losing to main deck Artifact hatred is no fun.
Reducing the artifact count purely because it can be targetted IS worth doing, it is a weakness, and one I am happy to not have any more.
The MIshra's Factory has been Extremely useful, often because it chooses when it wants to be an artifact. (it can be very funny with the Voltaic key too)

But your turn 1 abilities, and the aforementioned Tinker, yawg will, balance, twist DO get significantly better turn 1 - as well as bob + top.
Yawgies and Twist are NOT good to cast on turn one.
Balance is often not good to cast on the draw.
Tinker, sure is silly, but it still gives the 3 more turns with my robot.
I spoze you are going to tell me I am playing the wrong robot, but I really think you just dont get this deck.
Top turn One or Two does not really matter.


This is Vintage after all...to suggest something is "broken enough" so you are okay with nerfing it a little since it's still good is really unacceptable.
Smile You REALLY dont get this deck
I play Inky because it is "broken enough".
Blightsteel is more broken.
But Inky wins more games.
And, I do not mind if you find this deck unacceptable.


The bonus of 1 mox FAR outweighs the times it will bite you.
But if I dont play it, it CAN'T bite me.

Turn 1 chalice @ 0 while you hold the mox pearl sucks, but isn't back breaking.
Sure.
You want to win LOTS. I just want to win.
You want to not get your back broken. I dont want to give them the chance.
And me Wasting / Stripmining their only colour source could be back breaking to them.


Turn 1 two land + confidant, while your opponent plays sapphire/island on turn 2 to drain your bob and then dump into jace? Yeah...much worse.  Had you the pearl instead of tundra there, you land bob and probably win that game.
Can You have the Pearl instead of the Sapphire? (you just lose)
Why do you get the ONE good mox, and not the other FOUR crappy ones?
Do you really think an on the play mana drain turn one off an Island and sapphire is a reasonable thing to expect to face every game?
Can i Force of Will the Jace now?

Why did I not spell pierce their Sapphire on turn one?
Stripmine their Island.
And laugh at their double blue spell that will never be cast as they draw off-colour Moxen?

OK, sure, in your example, I drew a tolarian academy and a seat of the synod, what does it matter that I got a Bob? No Black mana in the area. Good thing I am only playing 2, a second one in hand might be a lost game for me.


Overall, your deck is solid...

Smile Solid like a fat dwarf.


but i think the 1 on color mox and a 3rd bob are huge.
And 62 cards seems bad.
What do you think should be deleted to include them?
Suddenly I want to be playing all these extra Moxen because sudden I am relying on a turn 1 Bob, and suddenly I am weak to creature kill as well as artifact kill...
(Currently I am enjoying the sideboarded Engineered plague, naming Wizard.)


You say you don't have a lot of colorless eaters? Bobs, top, balance, yawg will, mind twist, sol ring, key, vault, tezz, hurks, fof, walk, tinker, control magic, scroll, most of your SB....I actually see MORE colorless using cards than not in your list.
I dont.

Bob = 1
Top = 1  (+1+1...)
Balance =1
Solring = -1
Key = 1 +1
Vault = 2
Scroll = 1
Hurkyls =1
Walk =1
Yawgies =2
Tinker =2
Control Magic =2
Tezz = 3
FoF = 3
Mindtwist =X

Of that lot, the stuff that "takes" colourless is the stuff that takes more than one.
I would count as Yawgies, Tinker, Control Magic, Tezz, FoF & Mindtwist.
I do not need to cast any of them on turn 1.
Being able to is lovely with the nuts draw, but as you demonstrated, the nuts draw often does not involve off colour moxen. Give me a SOl ring instead any day.



The deck you are describing is a solid type one staple - Tezz. It works.
But it does have holes that other decks exploit, and it aint this deck.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 08:44:42 am by magic geek » Logged
BC
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« Reply #64 on: April 20, 2012, 09:44:14 am »

Every time you respond to criticism about your deck it comes off as completely dickish.  No wonder very few people are paying attention to this thread.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #65 on: April 20, 2012, 01:32:34 pm »

Every time you respond to criticism about your deck it comes off as completely dickish.  No wonder very few people are paying attention to this thread.

QFT

Doesn't really seem like he wants a discussion on anything or suggestions just wants to brag about how good his deck is.
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magic geek
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« Reply #66 on: April 20, 2012, 08:19:47 pm »

Every time you respond to criticism about your deck it comes off as completely dickish.  No wonder very few people are paying attention to this thread.
QFT
Doesn't really seem like he wants a discussion on anything or suggestions just wants to brag about how good his deck is.

I made the Wheel from the ground up.
And now I win Type 1 tournaments against quality opposition.
I have earned the right to brag here.

Both of you could just pay far less attention.
The Wheel wins tournaments already, I do not need either of your "help".




The Wheel 5.4

1x Ancestral Recall
1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Time Walk
1x Tinker
1x Inky Leviathan
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Control Magic
1x Hurkyls Recall
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
1x Tezzeret
3x Preordain
2x Dark confidant
1x Mind Twist
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Balance
1x Sensei's Divinig Top
1x Time Vault
1x Voltaic Key

 
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
1x Library of Alexandria
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Seat of the Synod
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
4x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
1x Island

1x Muddle the Mixture
1x Snapcaster Mage


Sideboard
1x Spell Pierce
1x Hurkyls Recall
1x Energy Flux
2x Planar Void
1x Lose Hope
1x Mana Drain
1x Teferi's Response
1x Seal of Cleansing
4x Porcelain Legionnaire
1x Threads of Disloyalty
1x Engineered plague
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 08:49:49 pm by magic geek » Logged
serracollector
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« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2012, 08:54:14 pm »

I would try 1 jace over your 1 control magic.  He can still bounce a creature, and he works well with the rest of deck, including help you find that needed colored mana, and helps with bobs.  Nice deck keep it going.
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #68 on: April 20, 2012, 10:29:41 pm »

I would try 1 jace over your 1 control magic.  He can still bounce a creature, and he works well with the rest of deck, including help you find that needed colored mana, and helps with bobs.  Nice deck keep it going.

Don't bother dude...he says he doesn't need anyone's help.  He's only here to publicly stroke himself, not make the deck better. After all, he did say:

"You want to win LOTS. I just want to win."
and
"I play Inky because it is "broken enough".
Blightsteel is more broken.
But Inky wins more games.
And, I do not mind if you find this deck unacceptable."

He also believes that:

"And now I win Type 1 tournaments against quality opposition.
I have earned the right to brag here."

and his evidence for this is that:

"I have looked at the perfect turn 1 infinity turn hand, and conceeded before drawing a card because I only had artifacts, and he went first with a Nether Void."

He doesn't need our input, critique, or help.  He is obviously a master of vintage.  His expressions of boundless knowledge say it all:

"Getting a turn one Bob is lovely. Obviously this is the best time to cast one. But do i want to cast another on turn 2? And a third on turn 3" (because that's obviously why people play more than 2, so they can drop a whole playset on the table as opposed to drawing one early)
"Top turn One or Two does not really matter."
"Tinker, sure is silly, but it still gives the 3 more turns with my robot."
"Why do you get the ONE good mox, and not the other FOUR crappy ones?"(because I suggest only running 3, so welcome to the world of mathematical impossibility)
"Of that lot, the stuff that "takes" colourless is the stuff that takes more than one.
I would count as Yawgies, Tinker, Control Magic, Tezz, FoF & Mindtwist.
I do not need to cast any of them on turn 1.
Being able to is lovely with the nuts draw, but as you demonstrated, the nuts draw often does not involve off colour moxen. Give me a SOl ring instead any day." (and 15 out of 60 cards can use colorless in the main - apparently, land, pearl, sol ring, tinker is bad, as is lotus, pearl, land, tezz, as is pearl, sea, bob...etc.)

This guy could obviously give everyone a tutorial on how to think like a Vintage pro!

But, as he established himself - this is not about improving or getting input, it's about a public spankfest that he complains not enough people are watching.
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magic geek
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« Reply #69 on: April 21, 2012, 04:03:29 am »

Hey whitedragon,
I stand behind everything you quoted. Just because you disagree does not make me wrong.
Your masturbation fixation is not helpful, would you please go away?

I would try 1 jace over your 1 control magic.  He can still bounce a creature, and he works well with the rest of deck, including help you find that needed colored mana, and helps with bobs.  Nice deck keep it going.
Thanks. Very Happy

If you read back a bit, I tried that.
Control Magic is just the better call in this deck.

If you are playing the full set of mox + crypt, Jace is the the better option.
Getting him out faster makes him much better.
I tried out the Pearl quite a while ago too. (and manadrains)
But getting colourscrewed was frustrating.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 05:49:24 am by magic geek » Logged
The Atog Lord
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« Reply #70 on: April 21, 2012, 01:24:34 pm »

Quote
I have earned the right to brag here.

No, you have not. This is the Vintage Deck Discussion thread, not the Brag About Being a Power Wizard thread.


Quote
The Wheel wins tournaments already, I do not need either of your "help". [sic]

Great. Then let's close the thread.
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The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
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