Is anyone out there thinking about Slaver?

[TheShop]

For some time, slaver has been dead because thirst went the way of the dodo...but now we have frantic search!

I thought about a more traditional slaver build because those decks packed a lot of counter power compared to current control decks and they have a more stable mana-base against MUD.  I have a few issues preventing me from putting a list on this:
1) why slaver over vault/key given the similarities of the mechanics?
2) red artifact hate is no longer better than green
3) yard hate is far better than it once was

On the positives-
1) the control suite here outclasses all other modern control decks
2) solid manabase
3) REB vs gush?  Welder vs MUD?  Gargadon vs oath?

I think a control slaver list packing
4x force
4x drain
4x pierce

Is dangerous.  Coupled with wastes, strip, a maindeck rack&ruin...this could also be the only deck packing a full suite of artifact mana + fof&gifts.  Your plays would be bombs pound for pound against most opponents if you get them off.

Idk, I want to solicit some discussion here.

[Stormanimagus]

For some time, slaver has been dead because thirst went the way of the dodo...but now we have frantic search!

I thought about a more traditional slaver build because those decks packed a lot of counter power compared to current control decks and they have a more stable mana-base against MUD.  I have a few issues preventing me from putting a list on this:
1) why slaver over vault/key given the similarities of the mechanics?
2) red artifact hate is no longer better than green
3) yard hate is far better than it once was

On the positives-
1) the control suite here outclasses all other modern control decks
2) solid manabase
3) REB vs gush?  Welder vs MUD?  Gargadon vs oath?

I think a control slaver list packing
4x force
4x drain
4x pierce

Is dangerous.  Coupled with wastes, strip, a maindeck rack&ruin...this could also be the only deck packing a full suite of artifact mana + fof&gifts.  Your plays would be bombs pound for pound against most opponents if you get them off.

Idk, I want to solicit some discussion here.

Explain to me again just HOW Mindslaver is  a better win-con than Time Vault/Voltaic Key? IMO, when they errata-ed Time Vault to combo with Voltaic Key that was the moment Slaver became obsolete. Thirst getting restricted was just a nail in the coffin. Any good Welder Trix deck playing Frantic Search would be well advised to run Time Vault/Key and probably doesn't even need Mindslaver anymore to be good.

-Storm

[Qube]

This list just made T8 in Durham:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 City of Brass
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Island

3 Goblin Welder
3 Dark Confidant
1 Wurmcoil Engine

1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Gifts Ungiven

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Mana Drain

1 Fire//Ice
1 Rebuild

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Yixlid Jailer
3 Firespout
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Thada Adel, Acquisitor

[hitman]

The problem with Frantic Search in a deck playing a prolonged control role is the card doesn't actually net you anything.  It just digs.  That's fine and Frantic Search is a fine card but not well suited for the accumulation of resources.  That's why it's better in a combo deck where you're looking to complete a missing piece to a combo. 

Mindslaver sucks.  That said there's no reason why you can't run artifact win conditions along with Vault/Key.  With Gush around right now, Sundering Titan could be suicide if they bounce their lands and you're forced to blow up your own.  The Battlesphere might be pretty good.  It blanks Tangle Wire and blocks Quirion Dryads/Tarmogoyfs indefinitely.  Maybe Steel Hellkite would be fine for similar reasons.  It blows up Dryad/Goyf/Confidant/Spheres, etc.  The problem is it's glacially slow and otherwise unimpressive.  Darksteel Colossus is probably a fine card right now.  Karn's got nothing on Colossus, people are playing targeted artifact removal that isn't Swords or Echoing Truth.  I would just drop the Welder/Frantic Search approach and just play Vault/Key with something like Colossus and a normal blue/black shell splashing red for good cards right now.

I don't get why there are three Welders in the Durham top8 list.  Goblin Welder is a terrible first turn play, especially when you don't have a way to abuse it. 

[Stormanimagus]

No offense to whoever piloted that list, but it looks a bit loose. I don't like Confidant in a deck like this at all. Frantic Search seems so much more synergistic with what the deck is trying to do. Perhaps I'm gravely mistaken and Confidant is the beez neeze in such a deck, but I guess I'll just have to test right?

Anyway, here's the list I'd run if I had to play Welder Trix.deck tomorrow:


Welder Trix

Land (15):
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 City Of Brass
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts (12):
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Memory Jar

Artifact Creatures (2):
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Wurmcoil Engine

Creatures (4):
4 Goblin Welder

Instants (22):
4 Force Of Will
3 Mana Drain
4 Spell Pierce
4 Frantic Search
1 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor

Sorceries (5):
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Wheel Of Fortune
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

SB
4 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Nature’s Ruin
2 Perish

Discuss!

[AmbivalentDuck]

Goblin Welder is a terrible first turn play, especially when you don't have a way to abuse it.

Strongly disagree.  It enables you to play out Vault-Key aggressively despite countermagic and removal.  Also not terrible vs. stax.

My concern is that it's a terrible late game draw.

[Ten-Ten]

Welder Trix
Posted by: Stormanimagus
Edits by: Ten_Ten

Land (15):
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 City Of Brass 1 Polluted Delta
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts (12):
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault (Mindslaver)
1 Voltaic Key (Triskelion)
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Memory Jar

Artifact Creatures (2):
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Wurmcoil Engine

Creatures (4):
4 Goblin Welder

Instants (21):
4 Force Of Will
3 Mana Drain
4 Spell Pierce
3 Frantic Search
1 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor

Sorceries (6):
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Wheel Of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

I been thinkin' about Slaver since before the un-restrictions. 
I like your list. Just made a few tweeks, If I may 
- Imediately I didn't like the City of Brass in your list, IMO it should be another fetch or even basic.
- 4 Welders might be the right number since even in the late game you have more than enough ways of dumping excess welders from hand.
- I went with 3 Frantic Search and added a Windfall. Don't know how well this will work but It seems better than the fourth Frantic Search.
- I do not like Vault/Key not because it doesn't belong in this deck, I just like Slaver better 

Either way this deck needs testing,lots of testing.
I would love to see a Slaver build,w/o Vault/Key, make 1st

[vassago]

Can we just use welder with myr battlesphere? I like the prospect of lots of dudes+tolarian academy. Slaver might be too cute to be worth running.

[Killane]

<list>


I been thinkin' about Slaver since before the un-restrictions. 
I like your list. Just made a few tweeks, If I may 
- Imediately I didn't like the City of Brass in your list, IMO it should be another fetch or even basic.
- 4 Welders might be the right number since even in the late game you have more than enough ways of dumping excess welders from hand.
- I went with 3 Frantic Search and added a Windfall. Don't know how well this will work but It seems better than the fourth Frantic Search.
- I do not like Vault/Key not because it doesn't belong in this deck, I just like Slaver better 

Either way this deck needs testing,lots of testing.
I would love to see a Slaver build,w/o Vault/Key, make 1st

Why doesn't Key-Vault belong in the deck? You have a control deck with lots of artifacts. Why would this deck not want the ability to win for 4?

It sounds to me like you are suffering from pet-deck syndrome. What is your goal? Is your goal to build an optimal metagame deck? If so, you need to get cured of pet deck syndrome.

If your goal is to build the best possible modern slaver list, cool. But don;t be taling about making 1st place as your priamry goal, because then your just building suboptimally.

[TheShop]

<list>


I been thinkin' about Slaver since before the un-restrictions. 
I like your list. Just made a few tweeks, If I may 
- Imediately I didn't like the City of Brass in your list, IMO it should be another fetch or even basic.
- 4 Welders might be the right number since even in the late game you have more than enough ways of dumping excess welders from hand.
- I went with 3 Frantic Search and added a Windfall. Don't know how well this will work but It seems better than the fourth Frantic Search.
- I do not like Vault/Key not because it doesn't belong in this deck, I just like Slaver better 

Either way this deck needs testing,lots of testing.
I would love to see a Slaver build,w/o Vault/Key, make 1st

Why doesn't Key-Vault belong in the deck? You have a control deck with lots of artifacts. Why would this deck not want the ability to win for 4?

It sounds to me like you are suffering from pet-deck syndrome. What is your goal? Is your goal to build an optimal metagame deck? If so, you need to get cured of pet deck syndrome.

If your goal is to build the best possible modern slaver list, cool. But don;t be taling about making 1st place as your priamry goal, because then your just building suboptimally.

Isn't welding in a slaver and acitvating it technically winning for 4?  Is the real problem getting to 4 mana?

I maintain that the two wins are more comparable than we would like to believe- in vault you need 2 cards that aren't good for anything other than their combo use and 4 mana.  In slaver, we need 2 cards and a discard outlet all of which have uses unto themselves...and 4 mana(but all in one turn).

I think getting to 4 mana in a deck running full power + 4 drains isn't the problem., we are talking about the common belief that 2 cards that are blanks alone are better than paying a (discard outlet) premium to be able to use the combo pieces alone.

Ps- I think the deck should focus less of how we are winning and more on the fact that this deck can play the heavy counters and the big draw spells.

[Metman]

Why not play Slaver to abuse Vault/Key?  My thinking would be a couple Keys, a Vault, a Tezzeret or two, Intuitions, Frantic Searches, Goblin Welders, a Slaver and Battlesphere, and all the good restricted stuff. 

[Stormanimagus]

A single Slaver activation rarely wins the game at all, and can often just be a poor speed-bump at best for the cost of 4 mana AND an artifact in play to Weld. Those are a lot of IFs. Time Vault/Voltaic Key has far fewer IFs and is easier to play without dumping into the yard. Slaver costs 10 to play and activate unless you are dumping into the yard, and then you absolutely NEED Welder to get it back. Time Vault/Key wins on the spot and has no conditions other than the two cards being in play and you having 1 mana up. Voltaic Key interacts with many other cards in the deck lol. It interacts with Sensei's Divining Top as well as Sol Ring. Heck it even interacts with creatures if you want to be able to untap them to block. Slaver does not frequently win the game unless you "Slaver-lock" your opponent and that requires a card that produces many artifacts in play like Pentavus or Triskelavus. If you are adding either of those cards then Slaver is the same 2-card Combo that Vault/Key is, but Vault/Key is a heck of a lot faster.

[hitman]

There's a lot of really loose reasoning going on in here.

No offense to whoever piloted that list, but it looks a bit loose. I don't like Confidant in a deck like this at all. Frantic Search seems so much more synergistic with what the deck is trying to do. Perhaps I'm gravely mistaken and Confidant is the beez neeze in such a deck, but I guess I'll just have to test right?

A deck with a lot of Frantic Searches needs a way to acquire cards in hand.  You net nothing with Frantic Search.  It's a digging mechanic/filterer, not a draw engine.  Since he only has five cards in the deck with a CMC of 4 or over, he should be alright.  The question is, "Why does he have a bunch of Welders with very few ways of getting cards in the graveyard, both his own and his opponent's?"  Drawing cards is better than doing cute tricks with the graveyard.  With three Welders mainboard, I would expect that he was playing in a Workshop infested field but I see no Rack and Ruin, or some such effect, to abuse the Welders or a discard mechanic to take advantage of them.  Maybe he felt confident in his counter suite and never had a problem welding opponent's things in and out.  If you take out one or two Welders, the list looks pretty good.

Strongly disagree.  It enables you to play out Vault-Key aggressively despite countermagic and removal.  Also not terrible vs. stax.

My concern is that it's a terrible late game draw.

Unless you live in magical Christmasland and just have Vault/Key sitting in your hand, leading with Goblin Welder probably does nothing against everything but Workshops.  You can't threaten Spell Pierce, you didn't Ponder/Preordain if you had it and you've played a card out of your hand that does close to nothing.  I play a singleton Welder in some decks in the case that I play out a normal game of Vintage and both decks have depleted their hands, I can weld in pieces of combos during the middle or end parts of a game.  If you spent your first turn against Workshops just playing a Welder instead of aggressively looking for Moxes to play to keep your mana production up, you may not cast many other spells the rest of the game.   

A single Slaver activation rarely wins the game at all, and can often just be a poor speed-bump at best for the cost of 4 mana AND an artifact in play to Weld. Those are a lot of IFs. Time Vault/Voltaic Key has far fewer IFs and is easier to play without dumping into the yard

If you Mindslaver someone and it's only a speed bump, you don't know what you're doing with it.  The problem with Mindslaver isn't its effect.  It's all the variables you need to come together in a format with one Thirst for Knowledge in addition to having a dead card in hand unless you have a million mana and Workshops everywhere.  Vault/Key is just heads above Mindslaver logistically.  While I agree that Mindslaver is poor right now, it's not because the effect is lacking.

The problem with "Slaver" right now is that it's caught between Workshops, Gush and more mana efficient Lotus Cobra Jace decks.  You can definitely beat Workshops and maybe Jace decks but you'll get slaughtered by Gush.  Gush can beat Workshops and Jace.  I love Slaver and would love for it to be viable again but I just don't see it.  Add Dredge to the list of playable decks and you don't have a whole lot of favorable matchups out there.  I hate to be that guy but why play this over pretty much anything else?

[TheShop]

I was thinking that you two possible reasons, without really advocating doing this...but noting that it is a possibility-


1). Favorable matchup against shops(metagame dependent decisions).  You definitely have a better chance against shop when you run this larger manabase and you run welders, 4x drains, and basics.  15 lands in GAT is not good against 13 spheres.dec

2). More counter power(as stated previously). I think you can win the blue matchups by never missing a land drop and running more counter than they do.  Also, you get REB out of the board.  They are playing combo-control, you are playing hardcore draw-go.  I am not positive on this one, but your 12 counters (8 of which would be 1 for 1) vs "find my next force".dec (aka GAT)...I think you have a shot.

3). Dredge has a favorable matchup against everything...isn't that more of a sideboard consideration?  If we really want to only play decks that beat dredge, should everyone be maindecking 4 leylines?????

[AmbivalentDuck]

Unless you live in magical Christmasland and just have Vault/Key sitting in your hand, leading with Goblin Welder probably does nothing against everything but Workshops.  You can't threaten Spell Pierce, you didn't Ponder/Preordain if you had it and you've played a card out of your hand that does close to nothing.  I play a singleton Welder in some decks in the case that I play out a normal game of Vintage and both decks have depleted their hands, I can weld in pieces of combos during the middle or end parts of a game.  If you spent your first turn against Workshops just playing a Welder instead of aggressively looking for Moxes to play to keep your mana production up, you may not cast many other spells the rest of the game.

The utility of Spell Pierce against typical openings of Dark Confidant/Bazaar/Lotus Cobra is questionable.  That is unless you regularly Pierce Moxen.

On the play, I'm happy to drop a turn 1 Welder.  On the draw, sure, I'd rather Pierce a JMS/Smokestack.

Also consider that Welder + Tormod's Crypt locks Dredge out game 1.  With Tinker, 2 black Tutors, and Gifts, it isn't exactly "living the dream" to find a singleton Tormod's.

[hitman]

What I'm saying is that you don't want to be playing an extended control role, ever.  You want enough control elements to stop your opponent just long enough for you to kill him.  These decks are loaded with stuff that don't do anything and have cute synergies with Goblin Welder.  Counterspells are only good if you're doing something productive or winning next turn.  Without Thirst for Knowledge, you won't be able to keep up on the card count (even if you had Thirst, you'd still be strategically inferior to Gush decks).  Your spells just cost more than Gush deck's spells.  They don't do as much or more for the cost.  What's the point?  Gush does everything "Slaver" does better.  It's really not that hard to make a Gush deck beat Workshops.  It's no blowout but it's somewhere around 50/50, which is where you want matchups to be.  Sure you lost percentages against bigger mana blue decks but you're so far ahead of them anyway that you're still a big favorite.  

Favorable matchup against shops(metagame dependent decisions).  You definitely have a better chance against shop when you run this larger manabase and you run welders, 4x drains, and basics.  15 lands in GAT is not good against 13 spheres.dec

Sure but you lose to everything else, except Fish.

More counter power(as stated previously). I think you can win the blue matchups by never missing a land drop and running more counter than they do.  Also, you get REB out of the board.  They are playing combo-control, you are playing hardcore draw-go.  I am not positive on this one, but your 12 counters (8 of which would be 1 for 1) vs "find my next force".dec (aka GAT)...I think you have a shot.

Hardcore draw-go is pretty weak.  All your best laid plans fall apart as soon as they have a Duress effect.  Gush is hardly "Find-My-Next-Force".dec.  It's more like "Find-My-Fastbond-and-Kill-You-Immediately".dec.  I guess any deck has a shot since Vintage decks are chock full of restricted cards but sitting back and waiting to counter spells is a good way to lose in Vintage.

Dredge has a favorable matchup against everything...isn't that more of a sideboard consideration?  If we really want to only play decks that beat dredge, should everyone be maindecking 4 leylines?????

My point with Dredge is that, after all the other arguments, it's not like you have a favorable matchup against the rest of the field.  Dredge still smacks you around.  You might be able to keep an Oath off the table with enough Spell Pierces but they play the same spells, too.  It's not like back in the day when Oath didn't play good cards.  Now, all the Oath decks play the restricted list, too.  They play the same disruption but have a lower average converted mana cost than you.  

These types of Frantic Search decks just don't accumulate cards and they're slow and clunky.  The best list posted has been the most criticized list and important cards have been replaced with cards that don't do anything.  I'm really not trying to rain on anyone's parade.  I'm just explaining why I think this style deck is poor right now.  Hey, I could be wrong.  I've seen it tested by an exceptional player and it's not impressive.  If people aren't play Gush, try this out.  Gush decks are criminally underplayed right now.  They're still the best from what I've seen.  Unless people don't play them where you play, I wouldn't bring a deck that's so weak to Gush.

The utility of Spell Pierce against typical openings of Dark Confidant/Bazaar/Lotus Cobra is questionable.  That is unless you regularly Pierce Moxen.

I don't necessarily have a problem Spell Piercing Moxen or Sol Ring or Mana Crypt and Black Lotus but you're forgetting Thoughtseize, Preordain and a variety of restricted cards.  It's reasonable to expect a field to be comprised of Gush, Jace, Workshops and Dredge.  Except against Workshops, turn one Welder is terrible and does nothing.  If you add in Oath, Storm, and Fish, it does extra nothing.  Your plan against Dredge is a three card combo.  It's not infinite, it's constricted to how many artifacts (probably Moxes) you have in play.  I hope they don't play Leyline of Sanctity. 

I guess my overarching thought is that playing a control deck in this metagame is particularly loose.  If you beat Workshops (which are everywhere), you lose to Gush and Dredge.  If you beat Gush and Storm, you probably aren't in good shape against Workshops and, to a lesser extent, Cobra Jace.  Add to that the outliers of the format,  like Storm and Oath, and The format's variance is increasing.  In my opinion, it's better to play a deck that's got fair percentages in the middle of the metagame and just play broken, not control. 

[Royal Ass.]

I used to play Control Slaver back in 2004/5 before I quit magic for 5 years.  I didn't start playing again until the M11 pre-release.  A lot had changed in 5 years.  My initial inclination was to play slaver again since I really liked that deck.  I was actually a bit shocked and disappointing to find that Thirst was restricted. That plus the errata of Time Vault made me realize that Mindslaver was obsolete.

However, the thing that I enjoyed most about slaver was non so much the slaver lock aspect of the deck, but was the utility of Goblin Welder and the artifacts that it interacts with.  So I put together a slaver-esq deck using Time Vault instead of slaver and trying to replace the missing Thirsts with other cards that would put cards in the graveyard and provide draw.  

Some of the ideas were: Gifts Ungiven, Wheel of Fortune, Frantic Search, FoF, Intuition, and I even played with a single Bazaar up until recently.

I should mention that I don't play in a tournament environment because the Type 1 scene where I lived died around 2005.  I just play with a couple friends in a more casual environment so I don't know how competitive this deck would be against a fully developed meta game.  Regardless it's a lot of fun to play.

LAND:
Library of Alexandria
Tolarian Accademy
Strip Mine
1 Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

MANA ARTIFACTS:
5 Moxes
Black Lotus
Sol Ring
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault

ARTIFACTS:
Memory Jar
1 Sensei's Divining Top
Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

ARTIFACT CREATURES:
1 Triskilian
1 Duplicant
1 Inkwell Leviathan/Myr Battlesphere

CREATURES:
3 Goblin Welder

INSTANTS:
Ancestral Recall
Brainstorm
Thirst for Knowledge
1 Frantic Search
Gifts Ungiven
Mystical Tutor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

SOURCERY:
Demonic Tutor
Yawgmoth's Will
Regrowth
Wheel of Fortune
Tinker
Time Walk

ENCHANTMENT:
Fastbond

PLANESWALKER:
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

For awhile I was playing a Bazaar in place of the Frantic Search, but I like the Frantic Search better.  I find the land untapping ability to be quite useful at times and I it increases my blue count for force.  I have not tested Spell Pierce.  Like I said I'm not playing in a developed meta game so I probably don't fully appreciate the utility of that card yet.  I mostly test my deck against my friends UR Workshop deck which I would say is a sub optimal build, but he would never admit that. (It runs janky cards like Minds Eye and doesn't play loadstone Golem)

Fastbond in the deck is sort of an experiment.  It might not be the most optimal card in a true competitive environment.  I don't know.  But with 2 draw 7s it can allow the deck to really go off.  One option would be to remove green entirely to strengthen the mana base, but Regrowth is so good and plus green has access to so much sideboard artifact disruption.

Gifts Ungiven in this deck is really good mid to late game especially if you have a welder in play.  It pretty much means you win if you resolve it.

Another card I had tested initially and might try to put back in the deck somehow is Fact or Fiction.  It's card drawing and puts artifacts in the graveyard.  I'm not sure what to cut for it.  Would it be better than Mystical Tutor? Fastbond?  

Should I just be playing a gush deck?

[hitman]

If you're not playing in tournaments, Slaver is fine.  I actually really like the Fastbond in your list.  Like you said, with draw 7s, it's really powerful.  Having it early and just getting to three-four mana first is really good.  It looks like you need 1 or 2 more Islands.  I would cut the Regrowth and play Merchant Scroll and switch a Tropical to an Island.  You could probably drop a Welder and a robot and play 2 Jace or a Jace and Ponder.  Ponder can be really important to dig for Moxes early to keep ahead or on par with Sphere or dig for Countermagic.  Jace can be game over in his own against Workshops because all they ever really do to kill you is play creatures.   I like how explosive your list looks.  How have you liked the Wheel of Fortune?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Your plan against Dredge is a three card combo.  It's not infinite, it's constricted to how many artifacts (probably Moxes) you have in play.

That's like saying that Ancestral Recall is a two-card combo with land.  If you aren't terrible at timing them, 2-3 Crypt activations seal the game and even the first one sets your opponent back two turns.  Since Leyline lands turn 0 and only turn 0, it's perfectly obvious whether or not going for Crypt is a valid line of play in a particular game.

Anyways, the quality of Welder is starkly dependent on your ability to turn it sideways to do something more relevant than a point of damage.  If you can't stock your graveyard with goodies and find Moxen relatively early in the game, sure it's a terrible turn 1 drop.  If you can go "balls to the wall" like Steel City Vault did, it's great.  Classic, glacially slow Slaver is dead.  If you cut Welders, you have no compelling reason not to run a Snake Vault variant.  Making the assumption that Welders remain in, your task is to build around activating them early and often.

[Royal Ass.]

Hitman, thanks for the advice.

I had been going back and forth between Merchant Scroll and Mystical Tutor and have settled on Mystical.  Honestly I wasn't that crazy about Merchant.  For that reason I think I would not trade it for Regrowth which I have found to be pretty amazing and think is an underrated card overall among Type 1 players. 

I have been thinking I would like to run another basic Island in the deck.  You will notice that I am running a strip mine.  I was thinking about changing the strip out for another Island.  Sometimes the strip can be really nice to throw you opponent off, but the deck does have a rather shaky mana base running 4 colors and is vulnerable to opposing strips.

I haven't tested Jace yet but it's something I have thought about.  It would be really good against shop decks.

It has been really tempting to cut a welder to make room in the deck for another card, but I have prevented myself from doing so.  I like having 3 especially against shop decks.  Against other decks it's somethign that could be sided out. It's a card you want to see at least once in a game and it's not something you want to tutor for so that's why I'm playing 3 now.  But maybe I could cut a welder for Jace...

Wheel of Fortune has been great.  Usually when I play it I win the same turn if I set things up right.  It can also get you out of a crappy top decking mode.  I feel like this is another underrated card in Type 1.  Yes your opponents get to draw.  But this card is much better than Twister.  It has synergy with a lot of cards in the deck.

Btw - Hurdyl's Recall is a great card to combo with a Wheel or Memory Jar.  Nothing like seeing the look on your opponents face when you bounce all their artifacts and make them dump them in the graveyard!

[Stormanimagus]

I haven't tested Jace yet but it's something I have thought about.  It would be really good against shop decks.

Ummm. . . Why, exactly? 4 CMC. Check. Affected by all spheres. Check. Does nothing to bounce artifacts other than creatures like Lodestone that will simply come down again next turn. Check.

Jace isn't terrible against Shops once it hits play, but I certainly wouldn't add it to a deck to beat shops. It's in decks to be the ace in the hole vs. everything that isn't MUD and Fish. In those 2 match-ups it's less than stellar.

-Storm

[Royal Ass.]

Storm - you might be right.  I haven't tested it yet.  But I think one of the main thing going for it against shops is that it doesn't tap down under tangle wire and you can still do suff with it w/o mana once it's in play.    I wouldn't be adding Jace just for shop match ups but because he does something good against a lot of decks. 

[Stormanimagus]

So after testing a bit with Frantic Search I've actually found it to be pretty poor in a deck that plays on Card Advantage and leveraging different forms of Card Advantage. I think that the guy who ran the Confidant list was in the right ball-park, but actually I'd make some changes. Basically I'd run what amounts to traditional Confidant/Jace Tezz except I'd run Welder instead of Trygon Predator as your tech vs. Shops. The only concern I'd then have is getting stuff in the bin. Here's where I'm thinking to start from though:


Welder Trix

Welder Trix

Land (16):
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts (12):
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Memory Jar

Artifact Creatures (1):
1 Myr Battlesphere

Planeswalkers (3):
3 Jace, The Mindsculptor

Creatures (7):
3 Goblin Welder
3 Dark Confidant
1 Gorilla Shaman

Instants (16):
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Intuition
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor

Sorceries (5):
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Wheel Of Fortune
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

SB
4 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Gorilla Shaman
3 Mindbreak Trap

[Qasur]

Discrediting TheShop for trying to align the discussion on the positive merits of the deck is poor. What he brought up makes sense if you think about it: More counters means you can come back faster and harder versus another control deck. 12 Counters is far stronger than going with just 8. Your topdeck capability goes up A LOT. Plus, having more lands (of which more are basics than normal) means you have a more-solid manabase. Those are really good merits versus GaT or Stax right now.

And yes, Frantic Search is the worst card in the deck. It's pretty obvious it's no bomb, but it's also one of the best cards too. Just filtering two cards can be vitally important to this deck, considering it runs more lands and more cards that don't mind being in the graveyard. And, it's blue. Can't discredit the additional blue spells because it keeps up a healthy FoW-Fodder for the deck.

To push envelope: You want Frantic and Thirst because of their discard potential, and you also want Goblin Welder* to abuse the discarded artifacts, so what's a guy to do? Put more artifacts in the deck!

Potential artifacts to abuse:
Triskelion
Duplicant
Myr Battlesphere
Jester's Cap
Mindslaver
Darksteel Colossus
Steel Hellkite
Wurmcoil Engine
Memory Jar
Time Vault (and Voltaic Key)
Crucible of Worlds
Sundering Titan

Those all scream "awesome" and "plays nice with Tinker", but let's eliminate some:
Wurmcoil -- this card is amazing for a 6cc artifact creature, but it requires an attack step to use most of the card's good abilities (lifelink and deathtouch). As for token-making, Myr Battlesphere is strictly better than it, so Wurmcoil is gone. In fact, Sphinx of the Steal Wind is strictly better too for a lifelink creature (and you can weld it from 'yard into play despite being pro-red!)
Memory Jar -- is "nice", but draw-7's are too much and not needed for type of deck. Helping your opponent dig is not a great option. Choice discard through Frantic Search and other options is stronger than massive digging.
Steel Hellkite -- again, looks amazing like Wurncoil, but has the same flaw: the attack step. Plus, even if you connect, are you guaranteeing that this guy is your route to victory? Probably not. No other support cards to make use of its only good ability.
Darksteel Colossus -- this guy is a 61st card for this deck. He'll make the cut, but he'll also miss the cut too. The utility of a powerhouse like him is awesome when you're running 12 counters and full-on moxen (plus Tinker!) but it's when you don't get that early, he doesn't work with the gameplan of pitch-welder.
Sundering Titan -- I mentioned this guy earlier, and he's a beast, but with 3 colors already, even if you drop him against a 2 or 3 color deck, you can be hitting one or more of your lands as well in those games. Plus, if they manage to kill him (especially with a *ton* of a Nature's Claims running around now) you'll probably 'Geddon yourself as he leaves play. He's just not abusable unless you're rocking a non-Dual land landbase.

The good:
Mindslaver -- Activate it once, the game should be yours. It guarantees you time walk for a whole turn (which is always insanely good), but it can even completely screw an opponent; blow their lotus/rituals/yawg will for nothing, or play their lands, gush them back to hand, then FoW their own Gush, etc. There are too many stupid game-wrecking plays you could pull off to screw your opponent into a complete game win with just 1 activation.
Jester's Cap -- 'Slaver's little sister. This card has seen less play over time, but think of it inclusion like Oath decks packing Show and Tell and Bribery: it's another win condition in your deck. Capping a player early can be game-ending, especially 3-card-or-less win condition opponents (there still are some!), or it can take out the most-problematic cards you would want to face (massive creatures or a handful of counters/removal spells). Pitching this early to the yard, then welding for a possible turn-2 activation could end a game right there.
Vault-Key -- I wanted to say "Nuff said", but I have to also say that these should be in the deck in-addition to the rest. It ups your win-card account, which is nothing to scoff at because it allows you to win earlier than a traditional Slaver deck did.
Duplucant/Triskelion -- This duo is pure utility. One can't live without the other anymore because Trike can kill small guys easily, but also can shoot your opponent, however, he can't hold a candlestick to Darksteel, Steel Hellkite, or any other monstrocity your opponent might drop on you. That's where Duplicant comes into play. It can handle the loose ends of that beefy monster, which is vitallity important for your safety.
Myr Battlesphere -- This new guy comes highly recommended for numerous reasons. First off, it's the new Pentavus. It can create a swarm of guys to block and attack with, which is always good. Plus, it creates weldable tokens to bring back goodies from the 'yard each turn (like Myr Battlesphere!). Plus, with the Battlesphere's ability, you can "swing" through any big creature that could be keeping you at bay (by dealing more damage with his ability directly). It someways, he can be seen as a 61st/62nd card, but then he can also be your 1st pick in certain matchups. His ability to make massive permanents against Stax is also a BIG bonus.
Crucible of Worlds -- first, it has amazing synergy with discarding lands (something this deck will do plenty of). Second, comboes great with Wasteland and Strip Mine for a potential lock against a land-light opponent (even GAY worries about Gushing too early). And third, (a card every list so far has left out) combos well with Gifts and Academy Ruins. Gifts for Academy Ruins, Crucible, Strip Mine, and Wasteland can be game-ending.

I don't have a finalized list because I've been working on two, Urb and Urbg, but I can say they have some similarities:
4 Goblin Welder
4 Spell Peirce
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Thirst For Knowledge
3 Frantic Search
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Tinker
1 Echoing Truth
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Duplicant
1 Triskelion
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Mindslaver
1 Jester's Cap
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

That's 36 cards, and most of the deck actually.Most of the land changes are sideboard options (green for abuse of Ancient Grudge over Nature's Claim; the two-for-one for 3 mana is almost the same as Rack And Ruin, but it can be pitched an early discard outlet without fear of loss. Also may try Trygon Predator instead).

I'll have a more-definite list a little bit later.

*Goblin Welder: With Workshop decks being at the top of their game for the first in a long time, Welder becomes much more powerful. Combo Welder with your discard outlets and countering opponent's artifact spells can lead you to winning games. It is, and will remain, one of the best 1cc creatures in the game. Much of this deck operates by abusing the creature alone, but doesn't have to. It's the power of this type of deck sometimes.

[vassago]

I think memory jar is the shit, especially if you are trying to put key vault together. So, I guess I disagree with you there.

Sundering Titan could be a sweet sideboard option for some metagames, so I would not write it off completely, not yet anyway.

I still think Mindslaver isn't good enough, even with the extra dudage form Myr Battlesphere.

Jester's Cap is ok, but mana intensive, so I personally wouldn't use it.

You did forget a personal favorite of mine, Possessed Portal. I think this card is amazing, and in a lot of situations, could be massively back breaking, especially with a welder in play.

[Qasur]

I think memory jar is the shit, especially if you are trying to put key vault together. So, I guess I disagree with you there.

Sundering Titan could be a sweet sideboard option for some metagames, so I would not write it off completely, not yet anyway.

I still think Mindslaver isn't good enough, even with the extra dudage form Myr Battlesphere.

Jester's Cap is ok, but mana intensive, so I personally wouldn't use it.

You did forget a personal favorite of mine, Possessed Portal. I think this card is amazing, and in a lot of situations, could be massively back breaking, especially with a welder in play.

I once utilized Memory Jar in the deck before it was the worst card by far. If you're casting it down, you could be playing Gifts or FoF instead, which is just as good (if not better).

You don't have to have extra dudage to make 'Slaver good, it's good all on it's own. It just gets better if you can get it back easier.

And, in most cases, it's not just spending the mana on these cards (which Mana Drain *does* help with), it's also abusing them with Welder. With FoW, MisD, and Gush in the format, there are many huge changes that draining a FoW/Gush can win you the game with the mana you generate from it alone with one of your bombs.

[Royal Ass.]

Quasar,  I strongly disagree with you on memory jar.  I suggest you give it another chance in your play testing.  I think it's one of the most powerful tools that this deck runs.    Cards like Jesters Cap and Slaver are janky. 

Also, I would drop some of the counterspells and focus on more of a combo game plan.   Where is Sensei's Divining Top in your list?  Have you tested Wheel of Fortune?  I would cut back on the number of Frantic Searches.  I think you need Mystical tutor in your list too. 

The way I view this deck is that it needs to play more like a combo deck and less like a control deck.  That's why I run Jar and Wheel and Fastbond.  I think that if you want to run a control deck than there are other better options right now.  At the least you should be running a couple jaces if you want to play a slower game.

[vassago]

IIf you're casting it down, you could be playing Gifts or FoF instead, which is just as good (if not better).

Well, I would like to say "no duh." However, welding jar in and out is absurdly good in assembling key/vault. It also fuels welder for other cards you may or may not want to cheat into play. See this for more insight on the subject: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38676.0    Also see:  http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/17922_Feature_Article_The_Steel_City_Vault_Deck_Unleashed.html

On a side note, I wouldn't even consider Fof for a list right now. Shops are scary, and I pretend like I might have mana problems when I consider spells for blue decks. I don't want to side track for the points I am making though.

You don't have to have extra dudage to make 'Slaver good, it's good all on it's own. It just gets better if you can get it back easier.

Slaver is utter shit unless you have a way to recur it. One activation is a waste of a turn, and probably wont win you the game. If I am going to tap between 4-10 mana just to look at their grip and tap them out for a turn, I should win right? Not going to happen unless their is a reliable way to keep doing it. I 100% disagree that Slaver is good on it's own, as it wouldn't be any good unless Goblin Welder existed, and isn't any good unless you have more than one other artifact on the table. I think slaver is a bit to slow right now, and seems like it isnt proactive enough.

And, in most cases, it's not just spending the mana on these cards (which Mana Drain *does* help with), it's also abusing them with Welder.

For one thing, I think you may be restating the obvious here: Welder is awesome and the engine of this deck.

Side note, who said we have to use mana drain?

EDIT

The way I view this deck is that it needs to play more like a combo deck and less like a control deck.

FACT

[TheShop]

I double dog dare you to give Tezz or GAT a brand new hand and full yard for free...

[znoyes]

Hi,

Maybe gush could be good in this deck. My thought is that, if you have 5 or more cards in hand, when you gush, you will have 8 or more cards in hand, then you move to discard phase and boom: your bomb artifact goes to the yard. If you are reluctant about cards like wheel of fortune because of their symmetry, this could be an alternative.

Thanks.