aggrssive black green beats

[kibbe]

ok a little back story first. i played magic pretty regularly a long time ago, but for the last 8 years or so i haven't played or followed it with any regularity. i haven't had any contact or interest in the game at all for a few years straight. last time i thought about the game Long was just ariving and freaking WotC out(always a sign of a good deck!). anyway for some reason the magic bug has crept up on me again and here i am.

so after some research and searching through reports and posts on individual cards this is what i came up with a my first deck that works pretty well. it runs pretty smoothly and is a blast to play. it is highly aggressive and a bit risky as you can quite literally make it impossible for yourself to win. so here's the deck and then i have a few thoughts and/or questions

b/g suicide beats

land (14)
1 forest
5 swamp
4 verdant catacombs
4 bayou

other mana (11)
1 black lotus
1 mox jet
1 mox emerald
4 dark ritual
4 elvish spirit guide

creatures (14)
4 dark confident
4 dusk urchins
3 abysssal percecutor
3 fallow wurm

other (21)
4 duress
2 unmask
3 pernicious deed
3 beserk
3 diabolic edict
2 nature's claim
3 skeletal scrying
1 demonic tutor


basic idea of the deck is get out a body, beat face and put out more if needed. the persecutors are ridiculous in the deck as i have a bunch of ways to get around the the can't win problem(deed, beserk (which is awsome in the deck btw), and edict). the deck has a ton of draw in it so it rarely runs out of steam which i was really aware of as i started to build it.

the urchins are quite good vs most decks but im not sure if they would be all that good against controll as they will eventually off themselves and then i might not be able to force a threat through after that. maybe they come out vs controll decks not sure yet.

the fallow wurms need to go away, i think "necrogen scudder" would be a good option. even when i drop the wurms i don't think 14 lands is quite enough. probably need 1 more at least maybe 2 but i'm not sure what to cut to get them.

i do enjoy this deck a bunch. it's fun it's agressive and it adapts well to most situations. combo is a problem. i need god draws to race them and thats not exactly the best stratagy to take. most others i can seem to survive long enough to get the job done. as you can tell with my opening remarks i don't have a ton of testing but i feel like the dack has some real potential. with a good player at the helm this deck should be able to  handel almost anything.

major questions:

sideboard! not sure how much of it to dedicate to combo as that i feel is my weakest match. and i don't have enough experince playing current vintage to know what to watch out for against any decks post board anyway

no vamp t! again i'm mainly goldfishing here. in matches i can see a vamp replacing 1 scying pretty easily if it actually makes sense. vamp doesn't go into my hand and that isn't the case with the rest of the draw/tutors in the deck

if i wanted to maindeck a leyline of the void (which the deck should be able to support 2 of i think) or 2 what should come out?

anyway thats the deck and my thoughts. hope you guys can help me tune this even better than it is right now!!

[MaximumCDawg]

Needs more disruption.  While I love quirky aggro decks, I don't think 4 Duress and 2 Unmask are enough to get you there against decks that will nut out in a single turn (more than half the decks in Vintage).  Perhaps you could go a more disruptive angle with Sinkholes, Wastelands, Root Maze?

The other thing I've noticed when trying to run aggro decks in Vintage is that, if you're not running time-tested, optimum builds, you need a lot of built-in synergy to make your deck compete at all.  Noble Fish, for example, uses alot of strong cards that synergize together, largely thanks to Exalted.  Goblins runs, well, Goblins.  The aggro BUG deck I'm currently on uses extra fetchlands and crop rotation to power out Bitter Ordeal and Vinelasher Kudzu.

I'm not suggesting you add combo, exactly; though people are gonna tell you that Helm-Leyline or Dark Depths will make your deck better.  I'm suggesting you look for powerful effects that overlap and enhance each other.  For example, if you want to use Persecutor, what about the cards that get run in The Gate in legacy? Innocent Blood, Gatekeeper of Malikar?  That might lead you down a mono-black build.  So perhaps add Gate to Phyrexia for some reach against shop?

Or maybe go another direction entirely and use Persecutor with Phyrexian Tower?  You've got some maindeck game against Oath then, so perhaps add a drain tendrils build around it for a non-creature kill?  Or, to help abuse the Tower, run Bitterblossom for constant boosts if you need it?  Maybe make a whole theme around that, add Jittes and Contamination?

Or perhaps focus on the black-green synergies.  I once tried to run a zombie deck (didn't work) and I'd love someone else to work on it.  The focus is on Putrid Leech as your main beatstick, with Entrails Feaster, mass discard, dredge, and recurring zombies with Unholy Grotto.  

Or maybe focus on the high casting cost of persecutor.  You already have Pernicious Deed; maybe run some Innocent Bloods, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Null Rod, Wretched Banquet, and try to punish the usual low casting cost of your opponents until you can run out your more expensive creatures.  If you're doing alot of removal early before Persecutor drops, maybe consider Canker Abomination instead (potentially 6/6 for 4), or maybe Weatherseed Treefolk (5/3 recurring for 5).  

Or, if you want to use Fallow Wurm, focus on that discard.  Run a land-focused build with Crucible and/or Life from the Loam, maybe other cards that like lots of lands like Vinelasher, or landfall creatures.

Or consider splashing a third color for some things you're missing.  Blue is classic, but I think you'd have a hard time running enough blue to keep FOW viable and still be a true aggro deck.  Of course, Bitterblossom+Spellstutter Sprite is a good deck core all by itself.

See what I mean?  Tossing together a bunch of powerful cards is not usually good enough.  You need cards that make sense together.

Here's an example.  I wanted to make a Bee deck.  Just so I can say "I'm playing Bees tonight."  So I took stock of available bees: Killer Bees, Unayro Bees, Caustic Wasps.  That's sort of it for even borderline playable (no hornet cannon or the hive).  Xantid Swarm is not exactly a bee, but it might as well be.  So I'm starting with a theme core of:

4 Xantid Swarm
4 Unaryo Bees
1 Killer Bees
4 Caustic Wasps

So right away I see that the other bees like Xantid Swarm because, if Swarm sticks, the rest of your hive avoids counterspells as they come into play.  Bees like lots of green mana, which implies we want to be mono-green or nearly so, and that we want acceleration that sticks around rather than one-shots if possible.  Since our beating bees cost 3, we need some way to stay alive that long and stop the enemy from comboing out while we slowly sting them to death.  Also, we only want one bee online at once because we can't afford to pump multiple bees.  I'm initially thinking five so I usually see two per game, but maybe that should be adjusted down to only 3 Unaryo Bees.  Caustic Wasps is a nice pseudo-trygon, but dies to pinging and cannot answer Oath.

So I'm thinking:

Acceleration

4 Noble Hierarch (accell that also makes bees bigger?  Yes please)
3 Carpet of Flowers (Hear me out.  Llanowar is usually the go-to green accel, but this has potential to generate alot of mana if you're facing someone playing islands, which is the case more than half of the time.  I think it's main-deckable.)

Early Game Survival

We have to choose a color to keep us alive early on.  Blue gives you FOW and Daze, but I'm not sure we can afford to splash enough blue to run FOW without making our bees unimpressive.  Black gives us Duress effects, which are a very real possibility.  Between four-six duress effects and Xantid Swarm, blue opponents should have trouble stopping bees from resolving. (Not that they need to in order to go Key-Vault).  

Here, I'm going to go with White.  This opens up Gaddock Teeg and Pridemage.  Teeg shuts down FOW and Tendrils, which effects almost everyone not running shop or dredge.  Pridemage offers more protection against artifacts and pumps da bees.  

4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Quasali Pridemage

Since we're thinking Teeg, I think Elvish Spirit Guide is an auto-include.  You really, really want to resolve Teeg turn 1.  

4 Elvish Spirit Guide

White also gives us Swords to Plowshares.

3 Swords to Plowshares

Then you're gonna want to stop the enemy from going off while you're stinging him or her.  In green, my favorite way to do that is with Root Maze.

3 Root Maze

And that's 38 cards.  Round the mana base out with 4 Windswept Heath, 4 Savanna, 1 Plains, 11 Forests, 2 artifact accel (lotus and emerald if you got em, petal and sol ring if you dont).  Can't really afford to run the Wasteland package without making bees angry.  

So then, sideboard.  Well, Oath and Dredge are gonna tear this deck up.   The deck has maindeck answers against most everything else.  So perhaps this sb:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
3 Emerald Charm
4 Nature's Claim

Is this deck good?  Probably not.  Is it covered in bees? Absolutely.  I think this sort of analysis might help you in your quest for an original black/green deck, though.

[kibbe]

CDawg- you are probably right about the disruption thing. i was toying with the idea of going to more of a mana denail package anyway but in a different way(lets be honest ld decks in vintage is like binging a knife to a gun fight .... lol well this deck might not be much better i guess but i can try). considering i didn't find it that difficult to play through spheres in just messing around i though why not put them in my deck! it should improve my worst match up (combo) and help slow things down in the others as well. plus ESG slips right past and my deck can operate on a pretty minimal mana/land base anyway(which is basic so it stands more of a chance against wastland.dec).

as to the dark depts thing. well yeah ... um it might just be flat out better. lol but i'd like to see what this deck can do if tuned a bit. maybe make it a little better while not totally changing the concept of the deck.

so here's a modified list with a couple big changes

b/g pile o somethin

land (15)
1 forest
6 swamp
4 verdant catacombs
4 bayou

other mana (12)
1 black lotus
1 mox jet
1 mox emerald
1 lotus petal
4 dark ritual
4 elvish spirit guide

creatures (9)
4 dark confident
3 nercogen scudder
2 abysssal percecutor

other (21)
4 duress
2 unmask
3 pernicious deed
2 beserk
2 diabolic edict
1 nature's claim
2 skeletal scrying
1 demonic tutor
2 leyline of the void
4 sphere of resistance
1 necropotence
1 vamp tutor


ok so thats a little more disruptive i'd say. the leyline are mainly for dredge but it should help against combo as well (of yagwin or recuresion varity) and at least give them pause if not shut of the t1 win completely. plus i can actaually hard cast it if i need to. necro was a terrible oversight on my part as it was the base for sui and this is a sui-ish deck. so yeah it belongs. plus with 4 duress and 2 unmask with a good sized necro i should be able to suffecintly wreck there hand beofre i try to wreck their face.

as far as innocent blood goes, well, not so much for me. between deed and edict i think i'm ok there as i have gone to only 2 percicutors. besides with edict i can edict then swing for damage  and thats the only way i win is getting to my oppenents face. so i need my dudes and need to save them not toss them away. as far as synergies go i think a 12/6 flying trampler that gets rid of his can't win drawback is enough of a synergy to keep berserk around. plus i can in a pinch use it on my opp's dude (4 damage is not a lot to take if it gets rid of a opposing bob).

the deck is now 61 cards. knew i needed vampy but wasn't sure what to cut it so i just stuck it in. lol we shall see how it goes

this is not a deck that wants to control everyhting at all times. this deck is about causing enough mayhem/distortion to get through enough damage to seal a win. thats it. anything more is gravy but not really intentional. kind of fish like but black and green with no counters lol

[icy_triskelion]

Here is an old deck that I went 3-3 with at 2008 Vintage Champs side event.  I beat two TPS builds and a CotV Oath build but lose to two shops and slaver.  It was a fun deck to play.

Artifacts(6)
2 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

Creatures(16)
4 Evlish Spirit Guide
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Talara's Battalion

Enchantments(10)
3 Hidden Guerrillas
4 Rancor
3 Hidden Gibbons

Instants(8)
4 Berserk
4 Might of Old Krosa

Soreries(8)
4 Land Grant
4 Toughtsieze

Lands(12)
4 Forest
4 Bayou
4 Dryad Arbor

SB(15)
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Oxidize
4 Root Maze
4 Planar Void

[kibbe]

icy- lol now thats agressive beats! nice! more of what i was trying to do in the first place ... lol and a waaay better version at that. i still like some of the choices i made in my orginal build(specificaly to increase card draw potential) but i really like the hyper aggressive feel of yours. might splice my card draw into your shell see what i find. just looking at your list i would think you might have been able to run the root mazes main but i guess if your gonna go aggressive then it might as well be aggressive right? who needs stratagy anyway. getting away from the beats aspect of the deck mine now feels controllish and honestly if you are not playing blue based control or MUD then it probably is not going to work out so well. just out of curiosity did you test the beats deck a lot or just do it on a whim? if you tested it i'd like to know what it did good and poorly against as it might be able to be tuned a bit further. i really like your list though and has made me think my b/g aggressive beats idea wasn't so out there after all. anyway thanks for the reply and the list!

[icy_triskelion]

I built it to play around with.  Testing was fun with the deck, especially with the hiddens.  It was good against blue based decks but very weak against 9-12sphere shops.  I think I have a Demonic Tutor and a Vamp Tutor over the Chrome Moxes.  I did mull a lot to make sure I had wither a turn one bob or a beater.

[kibbe]

OK so i liked icy's deck list but i wanted to bring in more of my draw stuff. i still think that cdawg was right in that aggro needs legit disruption and not just 1 for 1 answers. so what to do? well after leaving this deck alone for awhile and working on a few others i decided to come back to it, with some thoughts from some other decks. i really think that b/g is a ridiculously powerful combination of colors with some really cool decks you can possibly make work. knowing that and still wanting to keep this a some what aggro deck this is what i came up with. it's actually pretty interesting and I'm curious what people will think of it as its quite different in function from the original deck(though it can go fast fat beats early if things are allowed to play out that way). so ...

pile o somethin v2.0

land (14) (may still need #15 not sure what to cut though)
4 verdant catacombs
4 bayou
4 swamp
2 forest

other mana (9 - 23 total)
1 black lotus
1 mox jet
1 mox emerald
3 dark ritual
3 elvish spirit guide

enchantments (7)
3 pernicious deed
4 hidden guerrillas (artifact trigger 5/3 trample)

creatures (6)
4 dark confidant
2 abyssal persicutor

other(24 and this is where things start to change .... a lot)
4 extripate
3 thoughts
3 unmask
2 sadistic sacrament
1 demonic tutor
1 vamp tutor
2 natures claim
2 diabolic edict
3 berserk
3 skeletal scrying

OK so as you can tell it's mighty different, but i think its way better in almost every way. i still need to get a dude to my opponents face but it is a much more calculating style deck. there are many ways to play it. aggressive beats? sure it can do that. controll the board with board sweepers and spot removal? got that too. hand wrecking? yup this as well. deck neutering? yup in the deck as well. so theres not much it can't do. granted combo is still a crap shoot. i don't have prolonged game plan against them. get sacrament and hope i can push it through before they go off

a few individual card explanations

extripate as a 4 of: well it allows me to a) take out a good portion of their counter wall with a single card, b) toast their aggro attack if i can swap bob with something or c) just rip anything apart that relies on a build with a lot of 4 of's (can you say shops?) and d) makes turn one unmask into extripate just plain ridiculous e) if even one resolves i know my opponents deck in full. no guessing you will know what you are playing against. not a bad play to hit a restricted card if you are unsure what you are playing against. f) oh yeah: IT'S UNCOUNTERABLE!!

unmask(lol at all): well see above first of all. secondly it is thoughtsieze 4-6. and thirdly it allows me to not have run a third edict. all of those plus it when i can use exptripate after any of the discard it can make for a huge momentum swing in my favor.

hidden guerrilla's: this is a tough slot for me. it will be a hidden of some sort just haven't tested enough to know for sure yet. the guerrilla feels strong right now but i can see the heard being better against the field instead of just shops and combo (the 2 main reasons i choose it over the others).

no necro: well its not really a Sui deck anymore (though it can play that role) and it isn't a combo deck either. those decks do better with necro. i also don't run 4 rituals so turn 1 necro is even less likely in this build. plus i run the 3 scryings which help the draw aspect at the same cost life wise.

sadistic sacrament: do i really need to explain this? its my only hope against combo and it does a number on combo controll as well. combine this with extripate and well its gonna make things hard on you opponent to find answers and/or win cons. sounds like a plan to me.


So combine beats(or even the threat of beats ala hidden) with disruption of all kinds (deed, thoughsieze/unmask, sacrament and expricate) and a little card draw and i think this deck has some game. how much? sleeve it up and you tell me. i think quite a bit but I'm in no place to have that mean anything

[AmbivalentDuck]

Persecutor is a questionable inclusion in Vintage since you have to waste a spell on killing it.  Regardless of how easy you may believe that to be, I'd happily let Persecutor resolve since it lets me go infinite relatively carelessly with Vault-Key ignoring Confidant damage, Ad Nauseam my entire deck into my hand, or deck myself with Dredge to get that last Bridge into my grave/find my Zealot/etc.

There are plenty of critters in Vintage with a CC to power ratio better than 3:2 and other 6/6s for that aren't reverse Platinum Angels.

[MaximumCDawg]

Persecutor is a questionable inclusion in Vintage since you have to waste a spell on killing it.  Regardless of how easy you may believe that to be, I'd happily let Persecutor resolve since it lets me go infinite relatively carelessly with Vault-Key ignoring Confidant damage, Ad Nauseam my entire deck into my hand, or deck myself with Dredge to get that last Bridge into my grave/find my Zealot/etc.

There are plenty of critters in Vintage with a CC to power ratio better than 3:2 and other 6/6s for that aren't reverse Platinum Angels.

Not to be picky, but when is the last time you went infinite with Vault-Key?

Presecutor may not be a top-tier choice, but he's far from terrible.  Goyf and Juggernaut don't stop the enemy from going Vault-Key either, but they see play. Some decks do just run creatures whose only purpose is to beat.  Persecutor has a few critical advantages over other vintage creatures:
(1) It has evasion;
(2) Other than Tinker and Oath targets (and even some of them!), it defeats most other creatures, such as Golem, and even Goyf most of the time.

I've had a little success with Persecutor in a power-light meta for exactly these reasons.  Actually won a small non-proxy tourny with a quirky red-black aggro deck.  You can look at the list over at Black Gold's web site. 

At the end of the day, though, I think the Persecutor pilot needs to ensure they have at least three times the number of ways to kill the demon as they do demons.  The best choices are probably:

(1) Gatekeeper / Innocent Blood (in mono-black aggro)
(2) Diabolic Edict / Chain of Vapor / Echoing Truth / Tariff (good toolbox removal anyway)
(3) High Market / Phyrexian Tower / Diamond Valley (anti-oath tech too)
(4) Cabal Therapy (the best one, since you can therapy early and sac the Persceutor later)

Since it is had to make room for all of this, I found that you did not want more than 2 Persecutors typically.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Not to be picky, but when is the last time you went infinite with Vault-Key?

The last time I couldn't die from decking myself and felt like running down the clock :p

Persecutor has a few critical advantages over other vintage creatures:
(1) It has evasion;
(2) Other than Tinker and Oath targets (and even some of them!), it defeats most other creatures, such as Golem, and even Goyf most of the time.

Grinning Demon may not have evasion, but losing two life a turn will usually compare favorably with giving your opponent the Platinum protection plan.  Also consider that for , you could have cast Necropotence and stormed out using the tutors, Rituals, and other low CC spells you're already running.

[kibbe]

thanks for the insight guys. i agree with both of you. persicutor isn't great, but he is playable so i cut him to a single.

to get the critter vibe back but keep the cost down i went with icy's spread of hiddens and bobs plus the persicutor. this way i am not relying on abyssal as the only decent face beater but if i get him i can use him.

i had forgotten about cabal therapy's flashback cost. that does fit in here really nicely. in fact it has replaced the 3/3 spread i had with 4 therapy and 2 unmask(after doing this i am wondering if i can squeeze the second persicutor back in). therapy still works under chalice at one too. chalice counters stuff but it doesn't prevent it from being played. so i fb therapy have it countered but still get to sac the big fella. not bad

after some more testing i definitely needed another land so i added a swamp as well. seems to be helping quite a bit in the consistency department.

deed has been underwhelming vs shop so i cut one from there as well to add another nature's claim. now i am weaker vs aggro but most good aggro is low cc so if i can find it in time deed should wipe the board. plus i have room in the sb for the other 2 as well.

cabal i have always been leery of and i still am. with my low experience levels its a tough task for me to name cards. FOW would be the only one i think i would be able to connect on on a regular basis. until i get more experience i might stick with duress as its more idiot proof and can't be redirected like thoughsieze can. plus I'm only running 1 persicutor right now so the interaction between the two is less of an issue for now. i think the therapy is the more optimal card but not for me. at least not yet.

anyway here is the updated list

p.o.s v2.1

land 15
4 verdant catacombs
4 bayou
5 swamp
2 forest

other mana 9
1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox jet
3 dark ritual
3 elvish spirit guide

enchantments 8
2 pernicious deed
3 hidden guerrilla's
3 hidden gibbons

creatures 5
4 dark confidant
1 abyssal persicutor

other 23
4 cabal therapy (duress)
2 unmask (the turn one plays of this is sooo good!)
3 extripate (wasn't destroying/discarding enough to warrent 4)
1 sadistic sacrament
1 demonic tutor
1 vamp tutor
3 natures claim
3 diabolic edict
3 berserk
2 skeletal srying

sb (my first stab at it)
3 rootmaze
3 null rod
2 sadistic sacrament
4 leyline of void(or planar void, not sure which)
1 extripate
2 pernicious deed

combo: maze rod sacrament
dredge: leylines and extripate
fish(blue heavy counter): extripate maybe deed
fish(light counter blue): not sure?
fish(non blue): deeds
shop: mazes extripate and null rod
elves/goblins: deeds?

any more suggestions are welcome on the deck and definitely need help on the sb i think

[RecklessEmbermage]

Playing therapy decently is not that hard if you know what deck the other person is playing. If your meta is small or transparent, if the opponent has played a signature card already or if you have seen his/her cards for some other reason, you aim at the card you figure most likely in the opponent's hand or the one you really doesn't want to be there. Chances are one of the above is true in most cases. I think you should add the therapies for synergy reasons and get experience playing with them. They make persecutor a lot better (those edicts will have to be sided out often and 3 in the main already look like too many) and they become bonkers if you have resolved an unmask, duress or extirpate.

As far as I can see, hidden gibbons is a sideboard card, whereas hidden guerillas is maindeckable as a four-of. The go-to creature for replacing the gibbons is probably goyf. This deck should be able to grow it very quickly. It would invalidate skeletal scrying, but scrying is already questionable and weaker still if therapy is in.

You could also consider this package:
vinelasher kudzu
vampire hexmage
dark depths
crop rotation
strip and wastes
life from the loam

A bunch of decks loose to strip lock. This shell would be a tiny bit slower out of the starting blocks than yours, but beat harder once it gets going. Life from the loam has some synergy with cabal therapy. Crop rotation has many interesting targets, including phyrexian tower, bojuka bog and lake of the dead.

[limitedwhole]

Thoughtseize has been printed since you last played.  Someone else mentioned it above, but I thought I'd highlight it.  4 Duress, 4 Thoughtseize all the way.  Hypnotic Specter is actually still pretty good if Trygdon Predator isn't seeing play were you are at.  Most players have no removal for it and it serves as an answer of sorts for Dark Confidant.  I never liked suicide black without mana destruction elements.  The reason for this is that a blue control deck can just drop a Dark Confidant and nullify your discard spells essentially, then tutor up a vault/key combo or tinker.  Having a way to kill Dark Confidant is really important as well.  Mogg Fanatic beats, kills confidant, and pulls bridges.  Sui Black is hard to build these days as it requires adding another color and loses some focus.  People have been playing Dark Depths/Hexmage instead of sui black.

i would suggest the following cards to start out with.
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
Strip Mine

[MaximumCDawg]

The big debate is between specter / nighthawk in this kind of deck, imho.  Nighthawk is an answer to tinker/oath targets, which might otherwise railroad this deck.  Plus, he lets you run bitterblossom and bob with abandon, and he's insane with a powered jitte.  Specter, however, simply wins if you get him active before they have a trick.  I think I like hawk on balance, just because if you're going black beats you are not going to win any races in Vintage anyway; better to use the long-game beater that plugs a hole in your armor rather than more duress/thoughtseizin.

Playing therapy decently is not that hard if you know what deck the other person is playing. If your meta is small or transparent, if the opponent has played a signature card already or if you have seen his/her cards for some other reason, you aim at the card you figure most likely in the opponent's hand or the one you really doesn't want to be there. Chances are one of the above is true in most cases. I think you should add the therapies for synergy reasons and get experience playing with them. They make persecutor a lot better (those edicts will have to be sided out often and 3 in the main already look like too many) and they become bonkers if you have resolved an unmask, duress or extirpate.

As far as I can see, hidden gibbons is a sideboard card, whereas hidden guerillas is maindeckable as a four-of. The go-to creature for replacing the gibbons is probably goyf. This deck should be able to grow it very quickly. It would invalidate skeletal scrying, but scrying is already questionable and weaker still if therapy is in.

You could also consider this package:
vinelasher kudzu
vampire hexmage
dark depths
crop rotation
strip and wastes
life from the loam

A bunch of decks loose to strip lock. This shell would be a tiny bit slower out of the starting blocks than yours, but beat harder once it gets going. Life from the loam has some synergy with cabal therapy. Crop rotation has many interesting targets, including phyrexian tower, bojuka bog and lake of the dead.

Truth.  I was running a BUG fish build with this package (sans depths).  I found it remarkably easy to get my loam on.  I think you might want this in a deck with access to intuition and mystical tutor, though, rather than green-blue.

                    

[kibbe]

thanks for showing interest in the deck and for the insight.

here are a few changes i have made.

-1 mox jet
-1 mox emerald
+1 dark ritual
+1 ESG

the reason i did this is i am still running null rods in the sb. plus it lends to the explosive nature of the deck, and esg slips under sphere effects. all of these things are things that i feel make my tough matchups better without losing to much to anyone else

-3 hidden gibbons
+3 hidden heard

yes the heard is less of a body but it comes online against almost if not everybody and is still a bigger body(3/3) than most critters seeing play in vintage right now. plus it still allows for turn 1 double hidden plays that hippie and nighthawk don't. if i would run one of them it would be nighthawk but for now i like the hidden stuff better.

-1 edict
+1 persicutor

with the 4 cabals in i feel i can safely run 2 of these monsters(if anything i really want to put number 3 in as well). i lose one of the ways to get rid of him but i still have 3x berserk, 2x edict, 2x deed, and the 4x cabals. getting him in play makes beating face a whole lot easier. that's how this deck works best. getting threats in play that have to be dealt with. it loves to play the beatdown role hence i crumble to combo as my control plays aren't that strong. combo is a bad match for me but the good news is that true combo decks are being replaced with control combo decks and control i can stand a chance against with the 3 md extripates and other disruption i run. true combo will most likely wreck me, but that's what a sb is for right?

the sb now looks like this
1 extripate
2 tormods crypt
3 thoughtsieze
3 null rod
2 seal of primordium
4 nether void

i feel that this covers my bases pretty well. I'm not sure i have enough hate against dredge but i do have the 3 md extripates as well. against combo i will mull aggressively to find a void. if it sticks i think it should wrap the game up right there. i would probably take out the sacrament but I'm not sure, might be too good not to leave in.

as to the depths idea. like i said it might just be better. i like the idea of what this deck is. its like a beefed up fish deck taking more risks for bigger bodies and faster clocks. fish is always annoying to deal with and this deck doesn't give you much time to find answers. plus it can be much more explosive than fish. the turn one plays of this deck can be really strong for an aggro deck both in terms of fatties and also in disruption. that's not a claim a lot of decks can make.

anyway thanks. keep the ideas coming. the deck is much better than when it started but there is always room to improve right?

[Daenyth]

How has the nether void been working for you?

[RecklessEmbermage]

Hidden heard is interesting. My first thought was that it's too small to be worth the drawback, but I'd be very interesting in hearing your version of the story after you've tested it some.

If you play cabal therapies, that probably requires some additional changes to the deck. I would cut one or two skeletal scrying and play slightly more discard. Something like 3 therapy, 3 duress, 2 unmask and the extirpates to accompany them? It's not entirely clear how the deck looks now, so it would be nice with an updated list.

EDIT: After you've added the fourth ritual and if you were to cut skeletal scrying, the most sensible thing to do might be to cut unmask. You have more mana now, but don't handle loss of card advantage as well as before. 4 duress, 3 therapy or 4 duress, 3 therapy, 1 thoughtseize is still a very healthy discard package. I wouldn't play 4 therapies: You have few creatures, so you probably need to focus on hitting with hardcast therapies rather than relying on the flashback.

Also consider adding a few bloodghasts. They would smooth out your deck: strengthen therapy to make it a solid 4-of (both for its flashback cost and for giving late-game therapies additional relevancy/targets), give you an additional sink for turn one ritual, give you board presence after deed etc...

[kibbe]

OK here is an up dated list. a few changes again but minor this time. will discuss below

p.o.s v2.2.1

land 15
4 verdant catacombs
4 bayou
5 swamp
1 forest
1 green fetch

other mana 9
1 black lotus
4 dark ritual
4 elvish spirit guide

enchantments 6
2 pernicious deed
4 hidden heard

creatures 7
4 dark confidant
3 abyssal persicutor

other 23
4 cabal therapy (duress)
2 unmask (the turn one plays of this is sooo good!)
3 extripate (wasn't destroying/discarding enough to warrent 4)
1 sadistic sacrament
1 demonic tutor
1 vamp tutor
3 natures claim
3 diabolic edict
3 berserk
2 skeletal srying

sb
1 extripate
2 tormods crypt
3 thoughtsieze
3 null rod
2 seal of primordium
4 nether void

anyway that's the list as of now. as far as testing i am a bit in the dark. i am just getting back into things and am mainly doing this on my own via goldfish games. testing specifics are guesses at best but i feel i have a decent idea of what makes a deck work or not. as far as how this deck would play out in a tourney i am unfortunately not in a position to say. the idea of the deck was a reaction to what i was seeing as far as lists go on morphling.de. i felt that this would be a line of attack that would be well prepared to handle much of the top decks being used as it has MD answers to most of the big threats commonly seen with the possible exception being true combo. so with all that being said take my reasoning with a grain of salt.

anyway as to some specific card choices

heard vs other hiddens: heard is just the most consistant of them all, plus it meets other criteria as well. it kills loadstone, and most non pumped creatures that see play in vintage. in a weird way it can be mana denial if they are overly worried of it. rogue elephant saw play in r/g stompy and this is basically that only better. it also isn't totally dead later in the game. i also went to just the heards at 4 instead of the 6 3/3 split. hiddens are still conditional so they can just be dead cards at times. going to 4 with the most consistently seen trigger i felt was a good move. it might slow the clock down just a bit but makes the deck more consistant against a wider array of decks.

cabal- well i think for what the deck is trying to do that this is the best card for the slot. its flashback cost is an important part of the deck now with the 3 fatties looming and it can be more than 1 for 1. if i wasn't running persicutor i would run something else probably thoughsieze.

nether void- have not had time to really test this but with 4 rituals and 4 esg casting this early vs combo seems like it is really doable. as i have said haven't tested it at all yet but it just seems like it is gg if it sticks. this deck can operate under the void better than most and certainly better than combo can. i will use extripate to aggressively go after fetch lands against combo. this should disrupt their mana base enough to give me a shot. plus with esg and ritual you can play around spell pierce or even bluff around it once they know what you are running.

3 edicts- i think this is the right number. oath can be a problem as i need creatures in play to win so i want answers to fatties that persictor can't handle. seeing as how oath and tinker/bot won't generally have many other creatures in play i think edict is a good choice here as well. plus it gives me an emergency out to persicutor if i need it.

the extra fetch- i was finding that i was drawing the forests too often. with adding the esg i felt it was OK to leave only one forest main. plus at it's heart this is a black deck so the green is the support color not the main attraction

unmask and scrying- i will lump these together as they seem to be the ones i have to deffend the most. this is an aggressive deck and unmask allows me to be very aggressive if i draw it in my opener. it also gets under sphere effects well and can be hard cast later in the game. allows me to scout for the cabals as well. all in all i feel like playing 2 is OK. more would probably be a mistake but i feel OK at 2. scrying is a bit harder to explain. it is more of a source of pressure as i loose steam more than anything else. i can cast my hand out in the first few turns fairly easily. scrying allows me to get back into the game if i over commit and get burned on it(top deck balance against me is pretty rough). if i don't find bob this is a good back up plan as far as draw goes. originally i had sylvan library in the deck but i think the versatility of this is better. it can do some neat tricks against tarmogoyf as well in a pinch 


the last thing i will say is this. this deck should be played more like r/g stompy than sui-black. sui black is a control deck that finishes with beats eventually or uses them as a form of control. this is beats with disruption and there is a big difference. i am looking to be the aggressive one not the reactive one. i want them to deal with me not the other way around. my threats need to be bigger so that even if they get something down they still need to deal with me as my clock is hopefully faster. have your bob as my persicutor will still smash your face in kind of attitude. winning is all that matters. control doesn't care about life if it has board position, this deck doesn't care about board position if its about to finish the job. just go for the win and think about plan b later. as the belcher thread said it best: be aggressive, b e aggressive

thanks for the interst and suggestions